Receiving rifle as a gift...while moving.


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Copernicus1473
December 30, 2012, 02:58 AM
I'm in a very strange situation- I'm going to be moving from MA to WA and want to make sure I abide by any and all laws.

My father, a class A LTC holder, would like to gift me a high capacity rifle. Of course, I cannot currently receive this rifle as I do not have a MA class A/B LTC. However, once I move to WA, I should be able to accept his rifle as a gift.

My question is, "what are my options?"

If he drove with me cross country, could we field strip, lock-up the rifle, and store it in the trunk? If so, would I need an FFL dealership to transfer the rifle, or since (I believe) there is no registry in WA, we could privately transfer it.

If I went alone, would he need to ship it (I've already read the sticky thread on that) to an FFL in WA so that I could pick it up (I believe the answer is yes).

Last option, which I believe is ILLEGAL, is if I drove with it locked up and disassembled in the trunk, then unloaded it at my new address in WA.

Any and all help is appreciated! Of course, I'm a bit new to transferring (things were much simpler in the state I used to live in) so please be kind if I seem ignorant.

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d-dogg
December 30, 2012, 09:40 AM
I just purchased a gun from a citizen of MA, and had it shipped to me. In our conversations regarding the transaction, I read the FAQ at the ATF site. It seemed very clear. The seller additionally called the local police who provided sound but unnecessarily complicated advice.

I contacted my FFL dealer who made it clear in no uncertain terms what needed to happen. It was less complicated than the local MA PD told the seller.

My advice is to move to WA, hook up with a FFL, and have the gun shipped to him or her. That way it is done and over with, totally in compliance with the law.

Sam1911
December 30, 2012, 10:35 AM
My advice is to move to WA, hook up with a FFL, and have the gun shipped to him or her. That way it is done and over with, totally in compliance with the law.
There's your answer. Hate MA for making it so stupid, but it doesn't make any sense to go through the hoops to get the MA license if you're moving away. Better to take care of this as a WA resident.

joeschmoe
December 30, 2012, 11:14 AM
My question is, "what are my options?"

If he drove with me cross country, could we field strip, lock-up the rifle, and store it in the trunk? If so, would I need an FFL dealership to transfer the rifle, or since (I believe) there is no registry in WA, we could privately transfer it.


This would work too. It does not have to be stripped. Just unloaded and locked in the trunk. It travels as your dads gun which he can legally transport to washington. Once there, he can gift it to you in you in your state of residence.

Scimmia
December 30, 2012, 11:15 AM
If he drove with me cross country, could we field strip, lock-up the rifle, and store it in the trunk? If so, would I need an FFL dealership to transfer the rifle, or since (I believe) there is no registry in WA, we could privately transfer it.

You can do this, but you will need to use an FFL holder to transfer the rifle to you since it's a transfer across state lines. Note that you will need to establish that you're a resident of WA at this point with a driver's license, utility bill, or something. The FFL holder would have to hold on to the rifle until you're able to provide whatever documentation that they want. Shipping to the FFL once you're established is probably a simpler option.

Bubbles
December 30, 2012, 11:17 AM
WA requires dealers to collect sales/use tax on the value of transferred firearms for people who purchase out of state and have the gun transferred in. Make sure the dealer understands the gun is a gift from your dad so you don't get hit with that.

joeschmoe
December 30, 2012, 12:12 PM
You can do this, but you will need to use an FFL holder to transfer the rifle to you since it's a transfer across state lines.

I don't think so. The dad can legally bring the gun into the state. Once there he can simply hand it to the son. Legal private in state transfer/gift. It's not uncommon for out of state hunters (especially foriegn) to gift thier rifles to their guides as a tip, rather than hassle with the return of the gun back home. Legal almost everywhere in the world.

Sam1911
December 30, 2012, 12:17 PM
NO TRANSFER BETWEEN RESIDENTS OF DIFFERENT STATES IS LAWFUL WITHOUT GOING THROUGH AN FFL DEALER.

I don't think so. The dad can legally bring the gun into the state. Once there he can simply hand it to the son. Legal private in state transfer/gift.
What joeschome is describing is a violation of federal law.
It's not uncommon for out of state hunters (especially foriegn) to gift thier rifles to their guides as a tip, rather than hassle with the return of the gun back home. Legal almost everywhere in the world.This may happen occasionally, but IS a felony, period. What folks do in other countries is not of concern to US federal law. A US citizen may ONLY transfer a firearm directly to another resident of his or her state.

joeschmoe
December 30, 2012, 12:26 PM
I thought this was legal. I'm not a lawyer.



"It shall be unlawful ..
... for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in... the State in which the transferor resides;"

ETA;

It shall be unlawful for:






or any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport
into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a
corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a
place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by
such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall
not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest
or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence
from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if
it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in
that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of
a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this
section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any
firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this
chapter

Sam1911
December 30, 2012, 12:28 PM
Understood, but it is important to know for sure when you're giving someone advice about federal law. Finding the statute ahead of time and even quoting it in your post is a good method to avoid leading someone astray.

joeschmoe
December 30, 2012, 12:40 PM
I guess the difference is intent. If the dad brings the gun with the intent of giving it to you; that's forbidden. But a hunter who brought the gun for hunting, but then gifts it is legal since it was aquired in state.

I've known out of state hunters gifting guns, both parties, and LEO believed it was legal.

DirtyDiesel
December 30, 2012, 12:41 PM
Similar question, but don't want to create a new thread on it. I live in WA and someone wants to trade a turbo I have for his rifle. Does that need to go through a FFA dealer?

And OP, where abouts in Washington you moving to?

d-dogg
December 30, 2012, 12:49 PM
DD, if private firearm sales and trades are legal in your state, and the guy wanting your turbo is also a resident of your state, then as I read the ATF FAQ, you would be fine. Of course, I won't do time for you if I turn out to be wrong.

That said, I know nothing of WA law, and I do know several states like MA and MD have "requirements".

So, my advice is to consult an FFL in your area.

Frank Ettin
December 30, 2012, 12:54 PM
I guess the difference is intent. If the dad brings the gun with the intent of giving it to you; that's forbidden. But a hunter who brought the gun for hunting, but then gifts it is legal since it was aquired in state....No, it is absolutely not legal for the hunter to do that. And I am a lawyer.

Here (yet again) is the whole federal law story on interstate transfers of firearms (not including the rules for those with Curio and Relic licenses and the subject of dual residency):

[1] Under federal law, any transfer (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL. The transfer must comply with all the requirements of the State in which the transfer is being done as well as all federal formalities (e. g., completion of a 4473, etc.).

[2] In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.

[3] In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence.

[4] In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.

[5] There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

[6] The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).

Here's what the statutes say:18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful—
...

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph

(A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

(B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

...

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to

(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

....

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
...

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph

(A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and

(B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

...

DirtyDiesel
December 30, 2012, 01:04 PM
Thanks d-dogg

Copernicus1473
December 30, 2012, 01:20 PM
Thanks everyone- from what I've gathered shipping to an FFL is the easiest way, I guess I'll just have to find one when I move.

I'm going to be moving to the Renton/Bellevue area most likely- I'll have to check out their laws, as well.

Jorg Nysgerrig
December 30, 2012, 01:29 PM
I guess I'll just have to find one when I move.
You might find this a good place to start looking:
http://www.gunbroker.com/FFL/SearchForFFL.aspx?st=State&sv=WA

Copernicus1473
December 30, 2012, 01:41 PM
You might find this a good place to start looking:
http://www.gunbroker.com/FFL/SearchForFFL.aspx?st=State&sv=WA
Sweet- there seems to be one right in the Kent/Renton/Auburn area.

DirtyDiesel
December 30, 2012, 01:56 PM
I'm near auburn, kent, Renton....hope you like rain ;)

NavyLCDR
December 30, 2012, 02:21 PM
I'm going to be moving to the Renton/Bellevue area most likely- I'll have to check out their laws, as well. Don't bother. Read WA state law, RCW 9.41.290:

"RCW 9.41.290
State preemption.

The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and reloader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality."

Almost all the firearms laws in the State of Washington are contained in RCW 9.41:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41

There is also a prohibition against possessing a loaded rifle in a vehicle in the Washington State hunting laws.

Keep in mind that once the rifle is sent to a WA FFL for transfer you will have to have a government issued document that proves WA residency and you put WA down as your state of residence on the form 4473. A WA FFL cannot transfer a rifle or shotgun to a resident of MA due to the MA LTC requirement.

I would also apply for a WA CPL the day you get here, because once you become a WA resident, any out of state carry and/or conceal permits you have become invalid in WA.

BSA1
January 1, 2013, 10:20 AM
How long does the O.P. have to live in Washington State before he is considered to be resident and how does he establish proof of residency? In other words can he cross state lines, declare I am now a resident of Washington and take possession of the gun?

md2lgyk
January 1, 2013, 10:30 AM
Since when do you have to go through an FFL for a rifle? I lived in WA about 15 years ago and never heard of this requirement.

GoWolfpack
January 1, 2013, 11:10 AM
Since when do you have to go through an FFL for a rifle? I lived in WA about 15 years ago and never heard of this requirement.
Any transfer of a firearm between residents of different states is required to pass through an FFL. This is federal law. Washington State law cannot override this requirement.

Sam1911
January 1, 2013, 11:43 AM
How long does the O.P. have to live in Washington State before he is considered to be resident and how does he establish proof of residency? In other words can he cross state lines, declare I am now a resident of Washington and take possession of the gun?

What a state requires for official residency is generally not related to residency from the BATFE's perspective as relates to buying a gun. The BATFE says you simply have to be in the state with the intention of making your home there. So if you've just pulled up in your moving truck, you can swing by the gun dealer's place on your way to your new house.

However, you generally need some form of ID to show the dealer. Having something in hand to show him who you and that you are indeed a resident may take a little longer.

Sam1911
January 1, 2013, 11:46 AM
Since when do you have to go through an FFL for a rifle? I lived in WA about 15 years ago and never heard of this requirementWe're talking about transferring firearms across state lines, not person-to-person within a state.

Since the Gun Control Act of 1968, all transfers of firearms across state lines (except for cases of death and bequest) must go through a FFL dealer.

BSA1
January 1, 2013, 11:47 AM
Wow! Somethings really are that easy.

NavyLCDR
January 1, 2013, 11:53 AM
How long does the O.P. have to live in Washington State before he is considered to be resident and how does he establish proof of residency? In other words can he cross state lines, declare I am now a resident of Washington and take possession of the gun?

27 CFR 478.11 (Code of Federal Regulations) defines state of residency as being present in a state with the intention of making a home there. To establish proof of residency to an FFL the person must provide a government issued document showing the current residence address (such as a hunting/fishing license) to supplement their out-of-state driver's license which establishes identification.

There is no proof of residency required for a private sale/transfer of a firearm which is only legal between residents of the same state according to the 1968 Gun Control Act, 18 USC 922 (a)(3) and (a)(5). Which is the answer to md2lgyk's question in post #22. For example, Joe Citizen show's up at the house next door to me with a moving truck and starts moving furniture in. I can sell him a handgun or rifle on the first day, privately, no FFL required, because he is obviously present there with the intention of making a home there and is now a resident of the same state I am, Washington.

Sam1911
January 1, 2013, 01:26 PM
How would I have gone thru a FFL dealer in transferring the arm w/o a serial number?FFL dealers are (or should be) quite familiar with firearms that have no serial number, as quite a few did back in the first half of last century. This shouldn't be any bother to them.

Is there a remedy for this error?I don't believe there really is any practicable remedy. What's done is done, and you can't exactly go and get it from him without committing the same "crime" again. At the end of the day, there's really no record or discoverable proof of this crime, except for what you've just posted here.

Frank Ettin
January 1, 2013, 02:36 PM
...In other words can he cross state lines, declare I am now a resident of Washington and take possession of the gun? ...So if you've just pulled up in your moving truck, you can swing by the gun dealer's place on your way to your new house.

But remember that to satisfy the federal definition of "resident" you must be there with the intention of making the State your home. So if you you would need some evidence to support your claim.

Arriving with a truck containing your household goods on your way to the home you bought in that State would be that sort of evidence. Just cross the state line in your car while you have a job, a house, a family, etc., back in another State isn't going to get you anywhere.

NavyLCDR
January 1, 2013, 04:34 PM
Arriving with a truck containing your household goods on your way to the home you bought in that State would be that sort of evidence.

Not to an FFL, though. Federal regulations require a government issued document with the current address of residence on it.

Frank Ettin
January 1, 2013, 04:48 PM
Arriving with a truck containing your household goods on your way to the home you bought in that State would be that sort of evidence.

Not to an FFL, though. Federal regulations require a government issued document with the current address of residence on it.Absolutely true. There are really two issues: (1) being able to demonstrate that you are present in a State with an intent to make it your home, so that you can satisfy the ATF definition of "resident"; and (2) being able to document that for an FFL in a manner that satisfies applicable state and federal law.

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