Austrailia gun ban fail


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AABEN
December 30, 2012, 08:08 PM
Austrailia gun ban fail

MUST SEE

http://youtu.be/fGaDAThOHhA

:o :what:

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M-Cameron
December 30, 2012, 08:15 PM
Australian politicians cannot define what a home invasion is?.....isnt "home invasion" pretty self explanatory?

Route666
December 30, 2012, 08:26 PM
What gun ban? - I have four handguns and my dad's 243 and double-barrel 12-gauge, all legally owned. The branch of the SSAA that I am a member of (Sporting Shooters Association of Australia (note - you spelt the name of my country wrong.......)) has over thirty thousand members. This is only sporting shooters at that branch of that club, and doesn't include all the primary producers / rural land owners / armed security and police. Keep in mind our population is 1/10th of the USA.

We've never had a right to bare arms in our constitution and gun culture here was never and still isn't the same as in the USA.

What our gun law changes did, after the Martin Bryant Port Arthur massacre (knee-jerk change, yes, and there are too many restrictions for my liking) is reduce the likelihood that a moron will get his hands on a gun and go nuts with it. It allowed people to either uphold their new licensing requirements and keep their firearms or sell them to the government. Guns were not banned - firearms were re-categorised and licensing requirements were changed basically to require a reason for having it, like for sport shooting, or recreation shooting if you own land.

MachIVshooter
December 30, 2012, 08:47 PM
What gun ban?

The one that leaves you unable to take pictures like these in your own home:

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n117/Hunter2506/Rifles2.jpg

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n117/Hunter2506/101_1427.jpg

Not trying to be rude, but while not an ouright ban, your gun rights are severely restricted and regulated compared to ours.

MedWheeler
December 30, 2012, 08:54 PM
We've never had a right to bare arms in our constitution

Neither have we, but there are few areas within the US that prohibit the wearing of sleeveless shirts. Pretty sure they're OK "down under" as well.. :D

Ms_Dragon
December 30, 2012, 09:13 PM
I bear arms all the time.
It's way too hot and humid at the moment to wear sleeves.

goldie
December 30, 2012, 09:51 PM
I would have figured with all the open land in that country,& most population by the coast, guns wouldnt be such a problem....

9MMare
December 30, 2012, 09:58 PM
It allowed people to either uphold their new licensing requirements and keep their firearms or sell them to the government. Guns were not banned - firearms were re-categorised and licensing requirements were changed basically to require a reason for having it, like for sport shooting, or recreation shooting if you own land.


Is self defense one allowable reason? And do you have to have a direct reason why you need it, like a dangerous job, someone is stalking you, etc?

Archangel14
December 30, 2012, 09:59 PM
What our gun law changes did, after the Martin Bryant Port Arthur massacre (knee-jerk change, yes, and there are too many restrictions for my liking) is reduce the likelihood that a moron will get his hands on a gun and go nuts with it.

I may be incorrect, but wasn't it the decree of some health minister in AU whereby handguns owners had a certain amount of time to give up their handguns? If I lived in Perth, can I just go to a gun shop and but a semi-auto pistol?

Ms_Dragon
December 30, 2012, 10:05 PM
I can't speak for other states in Australia but these are the gun laws/restrictions in the state of Queensland.

http://www.police.qld.gov.au/programs/weaponsLicensing/

bk42261
December 30, 2012, 10:28 PM
SO, "if you own land" you may own weapons? What if you DON'T own land?
No land equals no guns?

9MMare
December 30, 2012, 10:31 PM
I can't speak for other states in Australia but these are the gun laws/restrictions in the state of Queensland.

http://www.police.qld.gov.au/programs/weaponsLicensing/

Thank you. It says I must have a legitimate reason for the gun.

Is self-defense a legitimate reason? Or does there have to be an actual threat or regular dangerous circumstances?

chemist308
December 30, 2012, 10:37 PM
I watched the video and nearly threw up. Weren't we all raised to understand such a tyrannical move by a government would be an act of war against the people? Their people allowed this?!

SDC
December 30, 2012, 10:52 PM
Here's another interesting article that looks at the Australian response to Port Arthur; http://reason.com/archives/2012/12/22/gun-restrictions-have-always-bred-defian . It's interesting to note that after Howard banned semi-auto rifles, the entire country had around 640 thousand such rifles turned in for destruction, yet in only the few years PRIOR to the ban, almost a MILLION SKSs were imported from China, so what happened to all of the OTHER SKSs, PLUS all the other semi-autos (10/22s, Mini-14s, Garands, Brownings, etc., etc., etc.) that were in Australia before that tool Howard banned them? After they estimated that the compliance rate with their ban was less than 20%, they did what every OTHER gun control bureaucrat on the planet has done, and "revised" their initial estimates of the actual numbers of the guns in the country downwards, just so they could declare victory.

MachIVshooter
December 30, 2012, 11:21 PM
I can't speak for other states in Australia but these are the gun laws/restrictions in the state of Queensland.

So I take it category A & B weapons are fairly easy to procure, category C & H are doable but require a great deal more trouble, category D probably requires some special need be demonstrated and category R are nigh impossible for civilians?

Onmilo
December 31, 2012, 02:37 AM
This ain't Australia mate.

Silverado6x6
December 31, 2012, 06:24 AM
I plan on taking an extended stay in Oz maybe as early as this year, my collection is robust to say the least but I have no qualms about leaving it all in secure storage while in Oz. And if I stay I plan on acquiring a 3D printer, a mill and lathe, and the metal casting equipment to make castings from the 3D printer. I see a welcome field in Ox, I see a very restrictive and hostile field in the USA.

Sabb0
December 31, 2012, 07:57 AM
i just spent 20 minutes typing up a big reply and lost it while this site was doing maintenance.

anyways heres the short version.

here in Oz we cannot use self defence as a legitimate excuse to own a firearm.
in my state it took me 10 months to gain my firearms licence. this only allows me the use of rimfire and centrefire (this state has just banned the .338 lapua).
handgun ownership requires more training and certification and permission is only given for club based target shooting.

please dont allow your country to follow us as it appears in the media.

here are some government stats if your interested:

http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.html


im happy to answer any questions you may have.

Pilot
December 31, 2012, 08:19 AM
Well, Australia, and the rest of the world does not have the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution guaranteeing that our God given right of using arms to defend ourselves is not infringed. The Heller decision incorporated the 2A as an individual right with the majority opinion stating that firearms that are in "Common Use" are protected under the ruling. The AR-15 is the single most prolific rifle in the U.S. I would think that would qualify as "Common Use".

However, we can not stand idley by while AWB's or NFA registration requirements are forced on us until it can be argued by the courts. We must let our legislators know we will FIRE THEM and end their gravy trains should the even entertain more gun control laws.

9MMare
December 31, 2012, 01:23 PM
i just spent 20 minutes typing up a big reply and lost it while this site was doing maintenance.

anyways heres the short version.

here in Oz we cannot use self defence as a legitimate excuse to own a firearm.
in my state it took me 10 months to gain my firearms licence. this only allows me the use of rimfire and centrefire (this state has just banned the .338 lapua).
handgun ownership requires more training and certification and permission is only given for club based target shooting.

please dont allow your country to follow us as it appears in the media.

here are some government stats if your interested:

http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.html


im happy to answer any questions you may have.

Thanks very much for your time and your answer.

And I am doing what I can to keep that from happening here.

AABEN
December 31, 2012, 01:59 PM
What gun ban? - I have four handguns and my dad's 243 and double-barrel 12-gauge, all legally owned. The branch of the SSAA that I am a member of (Sporting Shooters Association of Australia (note - you spelt the name of my country wrong.......)) has over thirty thousand members. This is only sporting shooters at that branch of that club, and doesn't include all the primary producers / rural land owners / armed security and police. Keep in mind our population is 1/10th of the USA.

We've never had a right to bare arms in our constitution and gun culture here was never and still isn't the same as in the USA.

What our gun law changes did, after the Martin Bryant Port Arthur massacre (knee-jerk change, yes, and there are too many restrictions for my liking) is reduce the likelihood that a moron will get his hands on a gun and go nuts with it. It allowed people to either uphold their new licensing requirements and keep their firearms or sell them to the government. Guns were not banned - firearms were re-categorised and licensing requirements were changed basically to require a reason for having it, like for sport shooting, or recreation shooting if you own land.
Are you saying that the report that they took all of those guns is not true??? Why did we the USA have to give guns to you"ll when WW11 broke out to save you'll?? You all had gun till they told you all to turn them in.

GEM
December 31, 2012, 07:15 PM
I think that was the UK. Don't know of program to Australia. Was there one?

Anyway - I agree with the sentiment that if gun use is definitionally defined as sport there is no RKBA.

IIRC, the Australians tried to defend owning 'bad' guns under the rubric of sport as all Australian males must have a sport. Didn't work. According to an Australian friend - those who wanted 'bad' guns were seen as nutters.

The same argument was made in the UK - guns for sport. Didn't work. I have some old UK gun rags where they made fun of us for being nutters for using humanoid targets in IPSC or IDPA. They also have RKBA.

Route666
December 31, 2012, 10:27 PM
Neither have we, but there are few areas within the US that prohibit the wearing of sleeveless shirts. Pretty sure they're OK "down under" as well..

Lol - I typed bear but then went to the other one as it seemed wrong - good catch!

Route666
December 31, 2012, 10:48 PM
I may be incorrect, but wasn't it the decree of some health minister in AU whereby handguns owners had a certain amount of time to give up their handguns? If I lived in Perth, can I just go to a gun shop and but a semi-auto pistol?

There have been a couple of amnesties for handing in guns that were illegally owned or would not be legal under the new system.

If you had a license, sure you can go into a gun shop and buy one. Like MachIVShooter pointed out though, our laws are quite restricted compared to the USA, and you would need to get a permit to be able to take possession of the firearm. The permit is from weapons licensing branch of the police and once used / you take possession, it is returned to them with the info and the gun is registered to your license. And I think what MachIVShooter was most pointing out is the main major change that happened is basically the inability to get a semi-auto rifle now, which is about the biggest bummer of it, but there are also other things that aren't great either.

Basically all the licensing is around a "genuine reason" - meaning you can't get a license just because, you need to either have a job where carrying a firearm is part of the job, or get a rifle / shotgun (no semi-autos though) license for recreational shooting if you own land or are a member of a club with a range, or a license for sports shooting. I think the main benefit of this is that it is a big disincentive to people with a passing interest or think having a gun would be cool. The type of people who wouldn't treat firearms with the maturity and discipline that they require, like the type of people who shouldn't be driving cars.

I just wanted to point out that what we have here is pretty far from a total ban. Whenever our laws are brought up it is almost always the ultimate example of "blown out of proportion", which, with how passionate gun people are, is understandable, but being understandable doesn't make it correct. Once the majority of people get over the "the sky's falling", "the gubmint's stepping on the man", etc, etc and actually looked at what has changed and how to work with the new laws, it is not as draconian as it originally seemed.

Route666
December 31, 2012, 11:08 PM
Are you saying that the report that they took all of those guns is not true??? Why did we the USA have to give guns to you"ll when WW11 broke out to save you'll?? You all had gun till they told you all to turn them in.

Took isn't the right word, that implies they weren't paid for the firearms, which they were. People could also have sorted out their license under the new laws (if possible), and kept their firearms, but back then there wouldn't have been quite as many opportunities as there are now to be able to do that. The main source of "mandatory" (no other choice under the new laws) hand-ins would have been semi-auto rifles which were categorised such that you can't get one for recreational shooting or sports shooting, etc.

I know I sound like I'm fairly well 100% for these laws, but that's not true, a whole bunch of things in there stink, but unfortunately, as I get older especially, it seems these laws suit the maturity of the majority. Less people now care about what they do and how that affects others, don't take responsibility for themselves, and until that's rectified, things won't get any better in any aspect of human life on this planet. There used to be a time (not long ago, really) when you would work to prove you were worthy, were responsible and trustworthy enough and then you achieved something. Now everyone wants everything and they want it now, and there's nothing stopping them from going out and buying 99% of these things, with no value gained to themselves by doing so. Even things you can't buy, like the ability to play a guitar, which only comes through dedication and hard work, is not appreciated by anyone (except those few who actually do it themselves).

Well there you go, a little ranting, a little philosophy, lol.

MachIVshooter
December 31, 2012, 11:14 PM
Whenever our laws are brought up it is almost always the ultimate example of "blown out of proportion"

This is true. Ya'll down under are far from a total ban, but I dare say even further from the (somehwhat restricted) freedom we have here in the US.

There is just a fundamental difference in the way Americans view gun versus other "developed" nations. Self defense and defense against tyranny just don't seem to be valid reasons for most European-type gun owners (sorry to lump you Aussies into that crowd, but you know what I mean.) Sporting uses seem to be the incentive everywhere else, where here, the #1 reason cited is self defense/defense of family, followed by recreation. Hunters and competitive shooters are a relatively small portion of American gun owners.

I personally fit into all categories. Defense is my primary reason, but I'm also an avid hunter, have done competetive shooting, and casual shooting is one of my favorite recreational activities. As such, I have weapons geared toward all purposes, from a Tanfoglio Limited 10 and Armalite AR-50, to my hunting rifles, to ARs and other autoloaders, and a pot full of .22's that are mostly just used for inexpensive entertainment and practice (and pest control). I also collect military surplus, and have a rather extensive collection of pre-cold war era rifles from all over the world.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n117/Hunter2506/100_0910.jpg

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n117/Hunter2506/100_0911.jpg

My hobby would just not be doable to anywhere near the extent I enjoy it anywhere else in the world.

velojym
December 31, 2012, 11:47 PM
Maybe they should have just banned murder. That woulda worked great!
Oh... and put up some signs.

kcgunesq
January 1, 2013, 01:06 AM
So as I read the information on Queensland PD web page, it appears that ballistic body armor is (a) a "weapon" and (b) cost ~$150 a YEAR to license? :what: So basically, they don't want you to have any "offensive" weapons but they also don't want you to have any chance of surviving an attack by someone who didn't feel compelled to go through the channels, obtain the weapon legally and who now, oddly, feels free to attack you?

Am I misreading that part?

jack404
January 1, 2013, 02:09 AM
your correct self defence is not a legitamate excuse here

unless your a muslim jihadist scared of racists then carrying a illegal gun wont get you in strife , even if you shoot a cop with it

JFrame
January 1, 2013, 02:32 AM
There is just a fundamental difference in the way Americans view gun versus other "developed" nations. Self defense and defense against tyranny just don't seem to be valid reasons for most European-type gun owners (sorry to lump you Aussies into that crowd, but you know what I mean.) Sporting uses seem to be the incentive everywhere else, where here, the #1 reason cited is self defense/defense of family, followed by recreation. Hunters and competitive shooters are a relatively small portion of American gun owners.

I personally fit into all categories. Defense is my primary reason, but I'm also an avid hunter, have done competetive shooting, and casual shooting is one of my favorite recreational activities. As such, I have weapons geared toward all purposes, from a Tanfoglio Limited 10 and Armalite AR-50, to my hunting rifles, to ARs and other autoloaders, and a pot full of .22's that are mostly just used for inexpensive entertainment and practice (and pest control). I also collect military surplus, and have a rather extensive collection of pre-cold war era rifles from all over the world.

Yup -- Australia has allowed itself to fall into the rabbit hole of incrementalism, in the interests of "civility," or "maturity," or whatever the hell they want to call it. But ultimately, it is simply another incremental surrender to the authority of the State to deem what you are, or aren't, worthy of possessing or being.


.

Sabb0
January 1, 2013, 04:07 AM
basically our prime minister of the day was (is) a full blown hoplophobe (he has recently been quoted as saying that the gun buybacks / registrations are the proudest moments of his political career.

rumours are he already had the relevant legislation ready to roll before the Port Arthur massacre ( i lived about 30 minutes away at the time)

unfortunately at the time even though firearm legislation was state based (and still is), he threatened - coerced - bribed the states to go along.

these paybacks were paid for by an increase in out medicare payments.

let me tell you there are probably more semis and other firearms buried in PVC around the country than handed in. Alot of our shooters (the ones around at the time) are still very angry about what happened.

The younger generation dont seem to care as much (common theme?)

Unfortunately over here as well as our English based legal and political system, our overall apathy and lack of central lobby groups are our own worst enemy (not to mention the split opinions of shooters here, sadly).

The reason for your 2nd amendment and constitution never happened here, the closest we got was the Eureka Stockade back in the colonial days. even during WW2 we never had to fight the enemy on our shores (apart from aerial bombings etc).

Because of this our famed "she'll be alright mate" attitude works against us.

I hope your situation favours you better.



Dont let yourselves be misled by political red herrings!

oh and HAPPY NEW YEAR!

9MMare
January 1, 2013, 04:59 AM
Basically all the licensing is around a "genuine reason" - meaning you can't get a license just because, you need to either have a job where carrying a firearm is part of the job, or get a rifle / shotgun (no semi-autos though) license for recreational shooting if you own land or are a member of a club with a range, or a license for sports shooting. I think the main benefit of this is that it is a big disincentive to people with a passing interest or think having a gun would be cool. The type of people who wouldn't treat firearms with the maturity and discipline that they require, like the type of people who shouldn't be driving cars.

I just wanted to point out that what we have here is pretty far from a total ban. Whenever our laws are brought up it is almost always the ultimate example of "blown out of proportion", which, with how passionate gun people are, is understandable, but being understandable doesn't make it correct. Once the majority of people get over the "the sky's falling", "the gubmint's stepping on the man", etc, etc and actually looked at what has changed and how to work with the new laws, it is not as draconian as it originally seemed.

I dont think I'm 'blowing it out of proportion' when a person in Aus. cannot get a gun for basic self-defense...and it sounds like they have to make up a reason to have one for home defense as well.

I feel the need for a firearm for self-defense....I'm not sure how much more 'genuine' the reason needs to be. Is the Aus. govt guaranteeing my safety (if I were a citizen)? Of course no weapon is a guarantee but if firearms werent so effective, the criminals wouldnt be using them.

Edit: And after reading further, to have to pay YEARLY such amounts for the 'privilege?' Ack.

AABEN
January 1, 2013, 01:18 PM
What gun ban? - I have four handguns and my dad's 243 and double-barrel 12-gauge, all legally owned. The branch of the SSAA that I am a member of (Sporting Shooters Association of Australia (note - you spelt the name of my country wrong.......)) has over thirty thousand members. This is only sporting shooters at that branch of that club, and doesn't include all the primary producers / rural land owners / armed security and police. Keep in mind our population is 1/10th of the USA.

We've never had a right to bare arms in our constitution and gun culture here was never and still isn't the same as in the USA.

What our gun law changes did, after the Martin Bryant Port Arthur massacre (knee-jerk change, yes, and there are too many restrictions for my liking) is reduce the likelihood that a moron will get his hands on a gun and go nuts with it. It allowed people to either uphold their new licensing requirements and keep their firearms or sell them to the government. Guns were not banned - firearms were re-categorised and licensing requirements were changed basically to require a reason for having it, like for sport shooting, or recreation shooting if you own land.
Well you need it.When WW11 started you all did not have guns! We the USA sent you gun and that is what saved your A$$. Are you saying that that peace that I put on here is wrong? You would thank that your government would had learned from what happen at the start of WW11. No your government has not learned a thing. I fell sorry sorry for you'll.

SDC
January 1, 2013, 04:23 PM
AABEN, you're confusing "Australia" with "England", so yes, what you posted was wrong.

Route666
January 2, 2013, 08:35 AM
Lots of good points by everyone! I pretty much agree with everything you've all said. I guess the perspective / attitude I have is, not that there is nothing that can be done to change things for the way I want them so why try, but rather that I do what I think is most effective to try to make the world I live in better in my eyes, but at the same time enjoying what there is to enjoy and believing that maybe those in charge aren't actually dedicated everything they do to keeping whoever they can down, but that they are actually trying to improve human existence.

This next bit is not to incite anger or resentment, etc, I think the main point of it is that this is a different place than the USA. What works there, might not be suitable here, and vice-verse. Also it shows that what has happened in other countries has less bearing on how / if / when / why the same thing could or would happen in your own.

As for not being able to get them for self-defense, my whole life I've only come across a handful of people here who are upset by not being able have a gun for protection. Those people, though, are ones that clearly want it so they can be a big man with a gun, disguising it as wanting it for a more noble cause. It just seems a long way down the list of necessities here. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe people here are really, genuinely outraged by it, but if so, they're going about being outraged in a confusing manner, and well, they deserve what they get by not fighting for it.

Maybe I've just been lucky, or my perception is bent and the world (well this country anyway) is actually a lot scarier than it looks to me, or I just think I'm superman or something. I ride a motorcycle though, and I know there's a heck of a lot more chance of me dying on that than because I didn't have a gun to stop myself from getting attacked, and there is a really simple thing I can do to reduce the likelihood of getting killed on my bike - stop riding it, but I'm not concerned enough with that, so I'm sure not concerned about anything less likely.

Honestly, too many people still smoke, even though it so effectively kills life (outright or lessens life expectancy). If they truly believe a gun will provide a benefit to their life expectancy, they either live somewhere pretty darned hostile or they have their priorities messed up. Two things I can honestly say I am glad I don't have to deal with. I have no objections to those with the right to, who choose to (or not) carry for self-defense, more power to you, and if I had the right or even ability, I probably would too. However, I think I'd stop carrying it after a year or so, as the inconvenience of putting on one more item would outweigh the benefit. I know, I know, you don't need it until you need it, and then it's too late, but if I did need it, and didn't have it - a) it would really surprise me that it actually happened, b) I would admit and accept I was wrong and c) I would deal with the situation in the best way I could.

GEM
January 2, 2013, 11:54 AM
Interesting point about those who want guns for SD want it as a superpower in Australia. That is certainly not the case for most Americans. I'm heavily involved in such populations and our training emphasis exactly the opposite. The TX CHL class makes explicit points about these sort of things. In training classes, commando types are shut down by quality trainers. Those with the highlest level of training and ability are clear about such.

Pilot
January 2, 2013, 11:57 AM
basically our prime minister of the day was (is) a full blown hoplophobe (he has recently been quoted as saying that the gun buybacks / registrations are the proudest moments of his political career.

rumours are he already had the relevant legislation ready to roll before the Port Arthur massacre


Sounds all too familiar. "You never want to let a crisis go to waste" Rahm Emanuel, Chief of Staff to President Obama.

JFrame
January 2, 2013, 12:11 PM
Interesting point about those who want guns for SD want it as a superpower in Australia. That is certainly not the case for most Americans. I'm heavily involved in such populations and our training emphasis exactly the opposite. The TX CHL class makes explicit points about these sort of things. In training classes, commando types are shut down by quality trainers. Those with the highlest level of training and ability are clear about such.

Yep -- the gun-owners I know are the most low-keyed, humble, and responsible bunch of people there are. Maybe THAT says something about the culture and quality of our country.

Also, my state requires me to buy auto insurance. I have to buy home insurance to qualify for a loan. I choose to have life insurance and (at least until Obamacare) health insurance. I don't have any of these insurances with the expectation or desire of having to USE any of them. The firearm is simply another bit of insurance for the direst extremes.


.

MachIVshooter
January 2, 2013, 05:59 PM
It just seems a long way down the list of necessities here

The overall violent crime rates suggest otherwise. Women are roughly 3 times as likely to be raped in AU as the USA.

If they truly believe a gun will provide a benefit to their life expectancy, they either live somewhere pretty darned hostile or they have their priorities messed up.

That's not it at all. I live in a very rural area with almost no violent crime (bar fights and domestic disputes are about it). That doesn't mean that something can't or won't happen. My father also lived in a very rural, low crime community, where he was murdered while he slept, along with my step mother.

I don't live in fear, but by no means do I believe nothing bad can happen to me or my family at the hands of a violent criminal, and my 2-1/2 year old twin daughters are my world. Any person who becomes a threat to them may lose their life.

I have displayed a firearm defensively exactly twice, both many years ago. Once turned out to be some really drunk kid who busted through the wrong apartment door at about 2 am (his eyes got HUGE when he saw the business end of that stainless .357 magnum), and the other was a car load of gang bangers that had already driven by twice at about 5 MPH, scoping my place; On their third round, they saw me standing on the front patio with an AR, at which point they quickly accelerated and never came around again. Didn't actually have to point it at anyone.

The first instance would not have turned out to be anything. The second? I dunno, but I strongly suspect burglary was on their mind. I'm sure they were somewhat surprised to find a resident home in the middle of a weekday, more surprised that they got made, and very glad that they didn't try to enter the house.

The defensive firearm is just one more tool to augment defense, in addition to dogs, locks on doors and vigilance.

Ms_Dragon
January 2, 2013, 08:27 PM
Being able to carry is way up high on my list of necessities thanks for asking.
No, I can hardly play "big man with a gun".
Being 5'2 and 56 kgs wringing wet- if I'm lucky, it comes across as little more than cute.

And yes, as a female living in this country life IS pretty darn hostile.
I resent the inference you know what I need to do to be safe.

9MMare
January 3, 2013, 12:26 AM
As for not being able to get them for self-defense, my whole life I've only come across a handful of people here who are upset by not being able have a gun for protection. Those people, though, are ones that clearly want it so they can be a big man with a gun, disguising it as wanting it for a more noble cause. It just seems a long way down the list of necessities here. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe people here are really, genuinely outraged by it, but if so, they're going about being outraged in a confusing manner, and well, they deserve what they get by not fighting for it.

.

In my case, I am a woman. And I live alone. And live in a country with where women are attacked and homes invaded.

I dont think it's strange that I should desire the opportunity to more level the playing field, esp. since the attacker is most likely going to have one.

Route666
January 3, 2013, 06:41 AM
In my case, I am a woman. And I live alone. And live in a country with where women are attacked and homes invaded.

I dont think it's strange that I should desire the opportunity to more level the playing field, esp. since the attacker is most likely going to have one.

As I went on to say, I'm all for it, especially when physical disparity is so great, like petite women vs overgrown man. I don't see the same sentiment here is what I was trying to get it with my blabbing on, even if the stats are such as MachIVShooter posted.

Ms_Dragon
January 3, 2013, 06:55 AM
Spoken like a true Australian man.

Pfffttttt.
With a mindset like that I'd be moved to think you were a member of the Queensland police force.

Route666
January 3, 2013, 06:57 AM
MachIVShooter - I wasn't trying to say wanting to carry to defend yourself came from living in fear, just that in the bigger picture of a person's whole life, even in the USA I would imagine, there are other greater threats to life that people not only live with without having a care for, but even inflict on themselves by choice..

Route666
January 3, 2013, 07:03 AM
Interesting point about those who want guns for SD want it as a superpower in Australia. That is certainly not the case for most Americans. I'm heavily involved in such populations and our training emphasis exactly the opposite. The TX CHL class makes explicit points about these sort of things. In training classes, commando types are shut down by quality trainers. Those with the highlest level of training and ability are clear about such.

Honestly, those people are quite few and far between, and also the ones who almost always lose interest in keeping their license and club membership going. They're not interested in the shooting, they just want a gun so they can be a tough guy.

As JFrame was saying about the quality of people involved in the USA gun culture - the same is true here in the sports shooting, and even farmer / bush people, great people, honest, easy-going. When I first got interested in shooting and joined the club, it honestly surprised me that the majority of pistol shooters weren't young guys spurred on by their interest in video games, but mainly retired pensioners! I found it odd at first, but I'm glad these are the people we have involved in it.

Ms_Dragon
January 3, 2013, 07:10 AM
Funny how you are deliberately sidestepping someone who has been a victim of violent crime in your own country and who wants to see the number of those violent crimes reduced.

Willing to discuss the dirty laundry of another country and not your own is hypocritical in the extreme.

You have NO credibility here thanks.

ShamboPyro
January 3, 2013, 07:32 AM
The pictures of the guns in the junkyard made me cringe and rethink the meaning of life. :(:banghead::(:barf:

Ms_Dragon
January 3, 2013, 08:02 AM
*sigh*

I had a feeling it come to THIS.

Truly, I am not anti-male, fem-nazi in any stretch of the imagination but the Australian culture of male sexism has to be experienced. If only from a womans point of view.

Every day as an Australian woman, I experience sexual harassment of some form when I leave the relative safety of my home and venture out into the public.
I get loud, unwanted comments on my physical self. How my physical dimensions relates to my sexual prowess, vaginal tightness, how my breast size is relative to my capacity to enjoy adult relations.

I find myself to be on guard in social settings where men have been drinking lest they use the convenient excuse of too much to drink as an excuse to assault me.
It hampers my social interaction.
A guy with too many drinks under his belt takes far too many liberties with females within his sphere of notice.
Social conditioning and alcohol and lack of the sense of consequences make the male feel he's within his rights to put these these demands on a less than willing female.

Even with the lack of alcohol the sense of entitlement these men have is breathtaking.
When confronted with their inappropriate behavior they will argue the point with they thought the female would be flattered with the abuse.

*shrugs*

That sense of sexual entitlement and the lack of real consequences within the Australian culture is what leads Australian women to be the victims of more rapes than their American counterparts.

Pilot
January 3, 2013, 08:09 AM
Ms Dragon,

Sorry you have to put up with that. It is just not right. I can't imagine having to be that uncomfortable in public.

Maybe SOME of the men there have to over compensate for not having their basic rights.

Ms_Dragon
January 3, 2013, 08:31 AM
@Pilot.

Thank you for you acknowledgment.

It's not only me who has to live this way day in, and day out.
It's every female I know.
They ALL have the same story to tell.
Statistics are all good and well but they never show the true picture.
Fore every sexual assault or rape that is reported in this country five to ten more aren't reported due to either fear of the aggressor or intimidation at the hands of law enforcement agencies.

The stats. give the smallest insight into the issue of assaults in this country.

This is where being able to carry comes in.

We aren't heroes.
We aren't rambo wanna-be's.

We just want to be able to conduct our normal business without the very real threat of sexual harassment hanging over our heads. 24/7.

The Australian government has no answers and every regional domestic violence / assault court is clogged to the rafters with cases and perps. who get nowt but a slap on the wrist for their mis-deeds.

Mayhap if laws change and rapists are splashed across the evening news with good sized bullet hole in their chests and decent women folk had the right to carry and protect themselves maybe the culture would shift.

In the mean time Australian women have a better than 1 in 3, or in my opinion better, chance of being sexually assaulted.

Jaxondog
January 3, 2013, 08:43 AM
i just spent 20 minutes typing up a big reply and lost it while this site was doing maintenance.

anyways heres the short version.

here in Oz we cannot use self defence as a legitimate excuse to own a firearm.
in my state it took me 10 months to gain my firearms licence. this only allows me the use of rimfire and centrefire (this state has just banned the .338 lapua).
handgun ownership requires more training and certification and permission is only given for club based target shooting.

please dont allow your country to follow us as it appears in the media.

here are some government stats if your interested:

http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.html


im happy to answer any questions you may have.
what course's do the thug's and criminal's take?

Sabb0
January 3, 2013, 09:36 AM
Jaxondog, thats the pink elephant in the room that the government and the media refuse to acknowledge over here.

Instead they beat on us LAFOs because we are an easy target and its easier for them to appear to be fixing it than actually do something about the real problem.

Ms_Dragon, im really sorry to hear that your treated this badly. Ive lived in 4 different states in Aus. Sounds like you need to find a better area.

The big point in this thread i think is please dont fall for what we did.

Once its gone its very hard to get back.

thanks.

JFrame
January 3, 2013, 10:01 AM
i just spent 20 minutes typing up a big reply and lost it while this site was doing maintenance.

anyways heres the short version.

here in Oz we cannot use self defence as a legitimate excuse to own a firearm.
in my state it took me 10 months to gain my firearms licence. this only allows me the use of rimfire and centrefire (this state has just banned the .338 lapua).
handgun ownership requires more training and certification and permission is only given for club based target shooting.

please dont allow your country to follow us as it appears in the media.

here are some government stats if your interested:

http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.html


im happy to answer any questions you may have.

@Pilot.

Thank you for you acknowledgment.

It's not only me who has to live this way day in, and day out.
It's every female I know.
They ALL have the same story to tell.
Statistics are all good and well but they never show the true picture.
Fore every sexual assault or rape that is reported in this country five to ten more aren't reported due to either fear of the aggressor or intimidation at the hands of law enforcement agencies.

The stats. give the smallest insight into the issue of assaults in this country.

This is where being able to carry comes in.

We aren't heroes.
We aren't rambo wanna-be's.

We just want to be able to conduct our normal business without the very real threat of sexual harassment hanging over our heads. 24/7.

The Australian government has no answers and every regional domestic violence / assault court is clogged to the rafters with cases and perps. who get nowt but a slap on the wrist for their mis-deeds.

Mayhap if laws change and rapists are splashed across the evening news with good sized bullet hole in their chests and decent women folk had the right to carry and protect themselves maybe the culture would shift.

In the mean time Australian women have a better than 1 in 3, or in my opinion better, chance of being sexually assaulted.

Jaxondog, thats the pink elephant in the room that the government and the media refuse to acknowledge over here.

Instead they beat on us LAFOs because we are an easy target and its easier for them to appear to be fixing it than actually do something about the real problem.

Ms_Dragon, im really sorry to hear that your treated this badly. Ive lived in 4 different states in Aus. Sounds like you need to find a better area.

The big point in this thread i think is please dont fall for what we did.

Once its gone its very hard to get back.

thanks.

I know I'm basically talking to the choir on this forum...But to any of those out there who are beating the drums for gun control -- or for incremental and "reasonable" accommodations -- I would like to reiterate the quotes of those folks above who have been there and done that...Especially because it runs contrary to the narrative that antis are trying to foist upon us about the "blessings" of gun control in other countries.


.

pezo
January 3, 2013, 01:30 PM
I just read the wilkepedia take on that port aurther shooting because I knew little about it but wow what nightmare scenario. The shooter had no resistance to do what he was enthusiastically doing until 2 distance police officers had to drive in. Doesn't even seem they may have even been armed. They get pinned down and the shooter calls the wife of one and torments her. It took hours and a special police force to "wait him out" of a burning building. Seems maybe the policing system was a bit laxed and got caught with their pants down so they demonized the gun to avoid the real issues. After an incident like that it makes it more apparent in a more free country to carry a firearm. Doesn't mention shooter wearing armor. If one person had a shot at that looney it could have only helped.

PedalBiker
January 3, 2013, 05:44 PM
http://now.msn.com/windshield-punched-out-in-australian-road-rage-video

In spite of having a license # they waited for this guy to turn himself in.

Notice the great advice he got from the 000 operator.

MachIVshooter
January 3, 2013, 06:42 PM
the Australian culture of male sexism has to be experienced. If only from a womans point of view.

You're not the first Aussie lady I've heard that from.

jack404
January 3, 2013, 07:12 PM
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~hubbca/port_arthur.htm

Route666
January 4, 2013, 05:27 AM
Funny how you are deliberately sidestepping someone who has been a victim of violent crime in your own country and who wants to see the number of those violent crimes reduced.

Willing to discuss the dirty laundry of another country and not your own is hypocritical in the extreme.

You have NO credibility here thanks.

Apologies for missing that, I will go back and read, it has been a fairly busy week, so I skimmed a fair bit. I apologise for that. I am sorry. Your assumption that I deliberately "sidestepped" it is wrong, and I don't appreciate your attitude (whoever you are) in telling me I have no credibility for giving my opinion. Your opinion is as worthless as mine, and your opinion that I have no credibility is itself incredible.

It seems you must hang around the wrong people, and that sucks, but do something about it, don't cry about how bad your situation is. Yes there are a lot of brain-dead yobbo morons in this country, who have no intelligence, class or culture, but myself, being a software engineer find I spend most of my time around intelligent people, behaving in a pleasant and reasonable way. There's no reason you need to associate with the dregs of society.

But I'm done with this thread, just like the others in past years I bother to try to correct the "Great Austrailiain gun ban" that actually wasn't what it is blown out of proportion to be, this one has turned out the same. I am wrong, you are right, Australians are all sheep, living in a tyrannical hellhole. Guns were banned, they don't exist here, especially not in any manner where it is reasonable straightforward to obtain.

Sabb0
January 4, 2013, 06:02 AM
Hi, i feel i have to apologise for my fellow countryman above "route666"

We are all different and thats life i guess.

Anyone who has travelled will realise that we are all very similar apart from colour or language or culture. We all know others that are happy, sad, angry, enlightened, Pig headed etc. But human nature is universal, people in positions of power will eventually abuse this responsibility, regardless of their political leaning. Whats happening now in your country has happened in every country on earth and will continue to happen. Human nature is human nature and is very hard to rise above.

on a side note, i just got word that my mother is stranded in Port Arthur due to a massive bushfire in that area. There has been one death and one town lost at this stage. Shes ok but is a coincidence.

AABEN
January 4, 2013, 05:20 PM
AABEN, you're confusing "Australia" with "England", so yes, what you posted was wrong.
The movie of them dumping guns was in Australia! Go back and watch it.

AABEN
January 4, 2013, 05:46 PM
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~hubbca/port_arthur.htm
Thank that was very good reading. I think that it was a set up!!

AABEN
January 4, 2013, 05:58 PM
What gun ban? - I have four handguns and my dad's 243 and double-barrel 12-gauge, all legally owned. The branch of the SSAA that I am a member of (Sporting Shooters Association of Australia (note - you spelt the name of my country wrong.......)) has over thirty thousand members. This is only sporting shooters at that branch of that club, and doesn't include all the primary producers / rural land owners / armed security and police. Keep in mind our population is 1/10th of the USA.

We've never had a right to bare arms in our constitution and gun culture here was never and still isn't the same as in the USA.

What our gun law changes did, after the Martin Bryant Port Arthur massacre (knee-jerk change, yes, and there are too many restrictions for my liking) is reduce the likelihood that a moron will get his hands on a gun and go nuts with it. It allowed people to either uphold their new licensing requirements and keep their firearms or sell them to the government. Guns were not banned - firearms were re-categorised and licensing requirements were changed basically to require a reason for having it, like for sport shooting, or recreation shooting if you own land.
I see that you do NOT have where you live or what state you are from!

fallingblock
January 5, 2013, 03:23 AM
"Do not allow what happened to Australia's lawful firearms owners to happen to you":uhoh:

I have lived in Australia since 1995 and was present for the Howard-led media frenzy and lynch mob attitude to lawful shooters which ensued.

Route666 greatly oversimplifies what happened in 1996:

What our gun law changes did, after the Martin Bryant Port Arthur massacre (knee-jerk change, yes, and there are too many restrictions for my liking) is reduce the likelihood that a moron will get his hands on a gun and go nuts with it. It allowed people to either uphold their new licensing requirements and keep their firearms or sell them to the government.

In actual fact, those holding semi-auto rifles and semi-auto/pump action shotguns were compelled to sell their firearms to the government. The draconian exemptions for keeping them were simply not attainable by the vast majority of shooters. In most states a registration list made this compulsory seizure possible.

Recently an Australia Post operator in Sydney has been charged with importing 120 Glock 26 pistols and selling them on the black market.
Any "moron" with sufficient funds (which to be fair, is certainly an accurate description of the Port Arthur shooter) can acquire a firearm relatively easily anywhere in Australia, so long as they do not try to make it "legal". Americans might think that more Australians would have valued their means to self defense, but such was not the case. Australian society is quite different to that part of the U.S. population which lawfully holds firearms for whatever reason.

Let's just do our utmost to see that what happened in Oz doesn't happen in the U.S.

HOOfan_1
January 5, 2013, 04:06 AM
There is just a fundamental difference in the way Americans view gun versus other "developed" nations. Self defense and defense against tyranny just don't seem to be valid reasons for most European-type gun owners (sorry to lump you Aussies into that crowd, but you know what I mean.)

Considering some of them just used their arms to defend against tyranny not even 70 years ago, you would think they would have a different view...:confused:

Hey, we have pictures of the dudes who wrote the second amendment on our money. Some of those less gun friendly countries have pictures of English Monarchs on their money. The US split away from the rest of the "Western World" long ago. A bunch of those other countries had their revolutions, and restorations, and revolutions again, and restorations again.

The US has had some tyrants in command too (some of them have pictures on our money also), luckily they didn't have a lifetime term limit though....

SDC
January 7, 2013, 01:28 PM
But the US population never sent guns to Australia to help them after being attacked during WW2, which was your original claim; the video you reference had NOTHING to do with WW2, and showed them dumping guns which had been turned in after Howard passed his ignorant law.

Sabb0
January 8, 2013, 09:39 AM
correct. they were sent to England during the war.

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