My Buckmark goes Kaboom!


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Dudemeister
December 31, 2012, 04:05 AM
This weekend I was visiting my Brother in law, and while there I went to the range to fire off a few rounds. I was shooting my trusty '90 Buckmark.

On the last magazine of a 4 box set, it went Bang, Bang, Bang, Kaboom! It was such a shock, I didn't even bother to check if all my fingers were still attached. I never expected to have a kaboom from a .22LR, much less my Buckmark, which had gone well over 15K rounds without a hitch for the past 20+ years.

The gun is mostly stock except for a Picatinny top rail with Williams FireSights. I had been using a Micro -Reflex sight, but at the time it was off, as I seem to do much better without it anyway.

After recovering from my initial shock, I inspected the gun: the top rail had buckled upwards, and the extractor and it's spring/plunger were gone. on it's way back, the slide tried to feed a new round in, but couldn't, so it was jammed at an angle. When I took the magazine out, a flattened head of a case fell out as well.

I turns out the round that went kaboom had blown it's head completely off, leaving the case body inside the breech. My first thought was that the previous round had not cleared the barrel, and when the next one was fired it all went to hell, but upon inspection, the barrel was clear. When I went home, I extracted the casing quite easily using a metal pick. Inspection of the barrel using a watchmaker's 10x loupe doesn't show any visible barrel damage. I would have thought that any kind of doubled up shot would show some kind of damage/distortion inside the barrel, but I can't see anything, so at the moment, I'm not sure that my original theory stands.

What could have caused this? Has anyone else come across a similar experience?

I plan on buying the extractor parts and a new rail to repair it. Should I worry about the integrity of the gun?

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Inebriated
December 31, 2012, 04:42 AM
The barrel would have a bulge in it where the bullet hit the one that was stuck, if it were a squib. Also, you'd likely see little to know damage apart from the barrel. So I'm inclined to say that the gun either fired out of battery, or the cartridge had a case head separation.

I'd send it to Browning either way. It's either ammo-related or gun-related, so let Browning figure it out and give your gun a once-over.

ku4hx
December 31, 2012, 04:48 AM
A Browning KaBoom, and a .22LR at that. And here I was thinking these events were limited to Glocks! Who'd a-thunk it?

Browning needs to inspect it.

viking499
December 31, 2012, 09:26 AM
Sound like the Browning held together better than a Glock would have.......;)

JRadice45
December 31, 2012, 09:48 AM
What type / brand of ammo was it? I hope you stiilll have the ammo box with lot # and the case parts body & seperated head. First step is contact the ammo company and tell them what happened & send pictures. Next step is contact browning & send the firearm and damaged brass. Don't expect browning to cover the repair sincce this is usually termed an ammunition defect. If the ammo co refuses to pay you may be out of pocket on the repairs. Good luck.

Roadking Rider
December 31, 2012, 10:23 AM
It sounds to me like a bad casing or a round that somehow got a overload of gun powder. If it was any other gun but a Buckmark or a Ruger MK series pistol I might think it was the gun, but those two guns are know to be reliable beyound belief. Very strange for sure.

Shipwreck
December 31, 2012, 10:36 AM
Man, that sucks. Glad no one was hurt!

viking499
December 31, 2012, 11:50 AM
Pictures would be interesting to see.

ZeSpectre
December 31, 2012, 12:07 PM
As I often say there is a VERY fine line between a trusty-firearm and a hand grenade. Have the gun checked by a QUALIFIED gunsmith before you even consider using it again!

People like to poo-poo the .22 rimfire but there is still a LOT of energy in there!


+1 on seeing photos

Buck13
December 31, 2012, 12:12 PM
People like to poo-poo the .22 rimfire but there is still a LOT of energy in there!


Yes, you notice that all those Manly Mens who say only a .45 ACP is any good and a .380 will bounce right off a 200 pound bad guy are never too quick to volunteer to stand 25 yards down-range and catch .22s for you?
:evil:

rcmodel
December 31, 2012, 12:23 PM
leaving the case body inside the breech. If the entire case body was still in the chamber, the gun did not fire out of battery.

You had a seriously over-charged round that blew the head off and damaged the gun while it was fully chambered.

By all means:
1. Keep all the the shrapnel you found.
2. Keep the ammo box with the Lot# stamped on the flap.
3. And contact the company that loaded it.

They owe you some gun repairs.

rc

Dudemeister
December 31, 2012, 12:45 PM
Here you go, Here are some pictures of the gun, and one of the extracted casing. I can't find the flattened head anymore, I may have left it behind at the range.

The ammo I was shooting is CCI Blazer. Between me and my son, we've put away at least 5-6K of this stuff with only the occasional failure to fire. But never had one fail like this no matter what the brand.

http://digistealth.com/Public/Guns/kaboom_1.jpg
http://digistealth.com/Public/Guns/kaboom_2.jpg
http://digistealth.com/Public/Guns/kaboom_3.jpg



P.S. I'm using a new server system to host my pics, and I'm not sure how it looks from the outside just yet. Let me know if the pictures don't show up, so I can try something different.

ZeSpectre
December 31, 2012, 12:50 PM
no photos that I can see :(

clamman
December 31, 2012, 12:57 PM
No pics

Dudemeister
December 31, 2012, 01:05 PM
How about this ?

rcmodel
December 31, 2012, 01:09 PM
Not yet.

FYI: You can click Go Advanced below where you are typing.

Then click on Preview Post to look at the picture yourself before trying to post it.

rc

horsemen61
December 31, 2012, 01:11 PM
iD SEND IT TO BROWNING glad you are ok

jr_roosa
December 31, 2012, 01:20 PM
I had a win t22 blow off its head one day in my high standard. No damage. Only noticed because it showered me with in burnt powder and sounded funny. The broken case actually ejected and the head was stuck between the slide and barrel face.

J.

Dudemeister
December 31, 2012, 01:23 PM
Not yet.

FYI: You can click Go Advanced below where you are typing.

Then click on Preview Post to look at the picture yourself before trying to post it.

rc
Hmmm.

The problem with Preview , for me, is that I always see the pictures, because they are local (the hosting server is on my network). But when you're outside, it's a different story. I used to have a Quantum Snap Appliance, but it went south and I replaced it with a QNAP NAS, which works differently.

I'm trying to get the pictures to show up in the message like I did before, but if that doesn't work, try this, it's a direct link to the "kaboom" album:

http://digistealth.com/photostation/album.php?foldername=%2FKaboom

rondog
December 31, 2012, 01:23 PM
I have to ask - how clean do you keep the gun? I bought a used Buckmark that functioned "OK", until I took it apart and found it was absolutely filthy. I mean it had grime and powder residue in places I didn't even know could get dirty. After a thorough cleaning and a few new springs, it's like a new pistol now.

Oh, I can see the pics just fine.

Dudemeister
December 31, 2012, 01:35 PM
I have to ask - how clean do you keep the gun? I bought a used Buckmark that functioned "OK", until I took it apart and found it was absolutely filthy. I mean it had grime and powder residue in places I didn't even know could get dirty. After a thorough cleaning and a few new springs, it's like a new pistol now.

Oh, I can see the pics just fine.
Generally, I clean it after every range trip. I clean all the accessible areas that don't require disassembly (barrel, breech faces), I use a can of compressed air to blow the crud from the firing pin, extractor and trigger gaps, then add a dab of CLP to those areas and the slide.

I only take the gun completely apart once a year or so, maybe not even that. In general it's not all that dirty inside, there's nothing "caked in" or anything that would prevent smooth functioning of the gun.

Dudemeister
December 31, 2012, 01:40 PM
It just dawned on me that I can use my phone to view the page, since it's not on the local network, and I can see the pics, it's just very slow for some reason.

Is this what other folks are seeing? How long does it take for the 3 pics to load?

rondog
December 31, 2012, 01:53 PM
Photos work fine for me, nice looking grips! But my Camper was just nasty inside. Looked like an old Ford pickup engine, it was so grimy. But the gun still worked. I put the parts and frame in my ultrasonic cleaner and I swear I could hear them saying "oooh, ahhhh, thank you!"

Dudemeister
December 31, 2012, 02:32 PM
Someone asked for a picture of the ammo box showing the lot number. Here it is:

http://digistealth.com/Public/Guns/kaboom_4.jpg

the lot number is: 2FT508

Skylerbone
December 31, 2012, 02:37 PM
Seeing the pics fine on my iPhone, may want to add an ejector to your parts list and +1 on rcmodel's determination of cause.

Never had a case head separate but my father's .300 Win. Mag. did said same with SuperFormance in the hands of the local smith. No damage but Hornady shipped 5 boxes of Custom to replace the remaining 2 boxes.

hentown
December 31, 2012, 03:36 PM
Sound like the Browning held together better than a Glock would have......

Hardehardeharharhar! That's rich! Glock doesn't make peashooters; however, I'm pretty sure that they hold together pretty well, during a REAL KB. ;)

Mr.Revolverguy
December 31, 2012, 04:18 PM
Possible dirty chamber?

An over 30 year highmaster just told me he had this happened to him on a 22 ar15 due to dirty chamber. The round was so tight in the chamber due to carbon build up that when the bolt went to slam home after firing a round that it fired out of battery.

Magoo
December 31, 2012, 04:28 PM
Except he's got the entire casing (minus the rim). And it was recoverd from fully seated in the barrel. That doesn't sound like an out of battery ingition. Look at the pic again.

Stinks about your pistol :( - glad you're alright :). I hope Blazer makes things right for you.

Dudemeister
December 31, 2012, 04:43 PM
I went ahead and disassembled the pistol. While at it, I took a whole bunch pictures, and posted some of the better ones with comments to my personal PhotoStation album.

Here is the link:
http://digistealth.com/photostation/album.php?foldername=%2FKaboom

Please be patient while the album loads. I'm hosting my own server and my DSL connection really sucks (only 320kbps up).

Let me know if there are any problems seeing the pictures.

wally
December 31, 2012, 04:45 PM
From what I see and what he says about no ring or bulge in the barrel, I'd replace the parts and not worry about it. Although definitely worth trying to shame CCI into paying for repairs!

The aluminum top rail doesn't take a lot of force to bend, although I bet it held up a lot better than the plastic ones Browning has been using on the Camper models would have. The extractor seems to have blown off with the rim.

I quit buying Remington Golden bullet after getting way too many blown rims, although they only let loose over about 1/3 to 1/4 the circumference and caused no damage to my Ruger MK II or S&W M22A, but none of the blowouts ever aligned with the extractor. If they did I'd expect to need a new extractor.

GLOOB
December 31, 2012, 04:56 PM
I've had some bad lots of 22LR that bulged at the base in my autoloaders. I'm going to guess ammo problem.

Dudemeister
December 31, 2012, 06:31 PM
The extractor seems to have blown off with the rim.
What do you mean by that?

3twelves
December 31, 2012, 07:43 PM
I had a extractor and the other parts fly out of mine from wear. That probably somehow caused it to fire out of battery.

rondog
December 31, 2012, 07:46 PM
See that slot on the right side of the slide? That's where the case extractor should be. T'ain't there.

Mr.Revolverguy
December 31, 2012, 07:47 PM
Do you have a normally fired 22lr empty case? It would be neat to see the problem case next to a normal case. Looking at the pictures again it looks like that case is extremely large, which may indicate a over loaded cartridge.

Dudemeister
December 31, 2012, 09:00 PM
Do you have a normally fired 22lr empty case? It would be neat to see the problem case next to a normal case. Looking at the pictures again it looks like that case is extremely large, which may indicate a over loaded cartridge.

I don't have a fired case, but here is an unfired round from the same lot. Looks the same to me.

http://digistealth.com/Public/Guns/Kaboom_17.jpg

@RONDOG. I know I'm missing the extractor, the spring and the plunger. But that was not what I was questioning.

Wally had said "The extractor seems to have blown off with the rim." I didn't understand what he meant by the rim, but I got it now, he meant when the case rim blew off, it took the extractor with it.

Here is a picture of the same area of the gun, taken 3 months ago.

http://digistealth.com/Public/Guns/kaboom_0.jpg

wally
December 31, 2012, 09:41 PM
A fairly common cause of over pressure KaBooms! with normally loaded ammo is bullet setback -- particularly in .40S&W, but with .22lr the part of the bullet that is seated in the case is "rebated" or smaller in diameter that what is in front of the case making bullet setback nearly impossible.

Either CCI messed up with too much powder or too much priming compound (my bet because of the clean removal of the entire rim), or it was just a one in a gazillion defective case catastrophic failure.

If this is "fresh" production ammo, I wouldn't be surprised by a recall on this lot and its associated production runs.

That probably somehow caused it to fire out of battery.
Based on the photos of what remains of the case I'd bet a lot of money that it was fully into battery when fired.

ChooChoo
January 1, 2013, 03:03 AM
hentown - "Hardehardeharharhar! That's rich! Glock doesn't make peashooters; however, I'm pretty sure that they hold together pretty well, during a REAL KB"

You should visit this site to see some pictures of some pretty catastrophic Glock kaBOOMS. You'll see model 19s, 21s, 30s, 36s, etc.

A starting place: http://thegunzone.com/glock/greatest_hits.html

The link is in the “Glock Talk” section of the “Gun Zone”. Glock Talk has numerous kaBOOMS caused by numerous reasons (factory ammo, reloads, setbacks, etc.) to keep you busy for a while..

exavid
January 2, 2013, 07:20 PM
At my gun club we have a weekly Bullseye practice and most of us are using Buckmarks. One of the members had a similar though not quite so dramatic event with his Buckmark. The extractor and it's spring blew off the pistol when a cartridge head ruptured. He replaced the parts and continued using the pistol which by now at 100 rounds a week and a little over a year means 5000 more rounds has passed through the gun with no problem. I doubt there's enough power in a .22LR even with a bullet stuck in the barrel and another being fired into it to due much to the thick barrel of a Buckmark .22. I'd suspect there might have been a crack in the head of the .22 shell due to poor annealing before the case was formed or some such manufacturing error. If the barrel looks good, you can cycle .22 rounds manually through the gun and there's no slop in when you stick a .22 round in the chamber and try to wiggle it I wouldn't worry about it.
Glock kabooms are usually a function of a pentagonal barrel and using lead bullets. That type barrel tends to lead up. If you fire a bunch of lead bullets through it and then fire a jacketed bullet the chamber pressure can rise quite high due to lead fouling and a jacketed bullet being hard to push out of the barrel. Also some earlier Glocks had a pretty big cut out area just above the loading ramp that left part of the cartridge base unsupported. Lead and an unsupported cartridge base ain't good for holding things together.

Walkalong
January 2, 2013, 07:35 PM
Here is a case that fired out of battery. Story here. (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=153441&stc=1&d=1322278048) Yours looks more like over pressure.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=153441&stc=1&d=1322278048

Big20
January 2, 2013, 07:56 PM
I have a well maintained Nomad that has, on several occasions, fired with about one eighth inch of case not seated into the chamber. I believe the Buckmark & Nomad are essentially the same mechanism so I guess it's an ongoing problem. I usually "only" get pinged with blowback and no gun damage.

snakeman
January 2, 2013, 08:44 PM
crazy! but at least it held up well

Jim K
January 2, 2013, 09:38 PM
That is a case failure, probably the result of brittle brass being worked as the case head and rim were shaped. The head broke off before the case even had a chance to move back or to push the slide back. The escaping gas went up and only the wide open top kept the magazine from being blown out or the lips spread.

The pressure of a .22 LR is nothng to ignore; the SAAMI spec is 24,000 psi, more than many CF calibers.

(The above is in reference to the OP's report, not the case pictured in #40.)

Jim

exavid
January 2, 2013, 11:06 PM
The saving grace with a .22 even though the pressure is pretty high is that there's proportionally a lot more metal around a .22 cartridge in most guns than there is in most centerfires pistols.

Dudemeister
January 26, 2013, 08:28 PM
Well, this past week everything came to a head.

2 weeks ago, I had sent all the remaining bullets from that batch (2 1/2 bricks), back to CCI at their request. A couple of days after receiving it, I received a call telling me they test fired about 250 rounds, and none of them had any issues. However they did agree the incident was due to a case failure, so they asked me what it cost me to get the gun back in working condition.

The cost of the parts was about $110, primarily due to the cost of the TacSol rail which I ordered, but is currently back-ordered.

Last Wednesday I received a box from CCI containing 8 bricks of Blazer ammo. Since 2 1/2 of these bricks are a replacement for the ones I sent in, the other 5 1/2 are the compensation for my repair costs. While it doesn't exactly make up for my expenses, it's still better than nothing.

Yesterday I also received the replacement parts from Browning. I installed all the new parts in the gun, and re-installed the original base so I can use the gun until the TacSol rail get here.

So this is it, my first kaboom experience comes to a close. I haven't yet fired the gun, but I don't foresee any problems. Nevertheless, I plan to take it to the range next week. I'll report here if any problems arise.

Skylerbone
January 26, 2013, 09:03 PM
Can you fathom how much you could make off those 8 bricks at a gun show right now? I literally just walked out of Gander Mountain where the total amount of .22lr was 150 rounds of bird shot. Been that way going on 3 weeks.

sota
January 26, 2013, 09:08 PM
$110 estimated repair costs
5.5 bricks as compensation
valuation by CCI of $20/brick

how much does a brick go for today? :D
(not a .22LR firearm owner yet so honestly I don't know.)

Apple a Day
January 26, 2013, 09:23 PM
Funny, my cousin just has a split case today using some Blazer ammunition. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=699050
Not funny "ha ha"... funny as in "how the heck did that happen!"

sigma 40ve
January 26, 2013, 09:30 PM
After 10's of thousands of 22 fired I have had 2 issues.

First was back in the mid 1980's. Using Remington Vipers in an older Remington 552. Had one fire out of battery. Nice little 22 caliber bottleneck case. Blew powder all over my face. I shoot left handed. Remington wanted old ammo back and I got shipped a new brick of same as replacement.


Second was with Remington bulk pack about 2 months ago. Misfires, jams bullets at an angle. I was using my Ruger MkII 10 inch stainless. One round fired out of battery. It was just a faint pop noise. I ejected the mag and smoke came out of my mag well and pistol for about 10 seconds. Barrel wasn't obstructed. Wife was standing right behind me and witnessed the whole thing. Who knows what happened. I contacted Remington with the info and never got a response. Guess they don't care about quality or customers anymore.

Bayou Redd
January 26, 2013, 10:43 PM
Hey If You fired 15,000+ rounds in that Buckmark, I think she has proven herself to be worth a Browning once over. An intergrity check from the manufacturer is the only way that you will be totaly comfortable with her after that and 15k rounds makes her a worthwhile keeper. Don't cheat yourself out of a Browning Inspection, It'll be worth it.

exavid
January 26, 2013, 11:28 PM
Jack up those 5 bricks of .22s to $50 per brick for a grand total of $275. That was the price at a gun show here in town today. There just aren't any to be had.

Fishslayer
January 27, 2013, 01:23 AM
The cost of the parts was about $110, primarily due to the cost of the TacSol rail which I ordered, but is currently back-ordered.

Last Wednesday I received a box from CCI containing 8 bricks of Blazer ammo. Since 2 1/2 of these bricks are a replacement for the ones I sent in, the other 5 1/2 are the compensation for my repair costs. While it doesn't exactly make up for my expenses, it's still better than nothing.


Can you fathom how much you could make off those 8 bricks at a gun show right now? I literally just walked out of Gander Mountain where the total amount of .22lr was 150 rounds of bird shot. Been that way going on 3 weeks.

I know guys are asking $50 a brick on our local WTS board. No Idea if they're getting it. $35/brick is about average asking and I believe it is selling for that.

.22LR is gold right now.

EDIT: Just had a look. Federal bulk does seem to be selling at $40/525 brick. I think the Blazer is better ammo. More accurate and reliable in all my guns.

Dudemeister
January 27, 2013, 01:50 AM
$110 estimated repair costs
5.5 bricks as compensation
valuation by CCI of $20/brick

how much does a brick go for today? :D
(not a .22LR firearm owner yet so honestly I don't know.)
I'm not looking at the silly inflated prices right now, but a brick of Blazers usually costs about $15-17. The last batch I bought, cost me $15.95/brick.

I think they (CCI) figured out the price at $25 a brick (MSRP), so they way they looked at it they were being generous by sending me about $140-150 worth of ammo.

FYI, I forgot to add the cost of shipping the ammo back to them via UPS, which was $15. So the expenses were closer to $125

Dudemeister
January 27, 2013, 02:03 AM
I know guys are asking $50 a brick on our local WTS board. No Idea if they're getting it. $35/brick is about average asking and I believe it is selling for that.

.22LR is gold right now.

EDIT: Just had a look. Federal bulk does seem to be selling at $40/525 brick. I think the Blazer is better ammo. More accurate and reliable in all my guns.
All this insanity is going to eventually stop, and while prices for some ammo (like military calibers) will probably stay high, some calibers, especially .22LR will come back to normal.

You have to remember that everyone is having a knee-jerk reaction right now as if ALL types of weapons are going to be banned. In reality, handguns, hunting rifles, .22 firearms will more than likely not be affected.

In fact .22lr rifles are not even on the "chopping block" as they are not considered assault rifles at all.

So I'm looking at the long haul, where .22LR ammo will come back to what it was before. I still had about 4-5K of Winchester, Remington and CCI, and now I have about 4K more.

4v50 Gary
January 27, 2013, 02:06 AM
Out of battery.

Fishslayer
January 27, 2013, 02:20 AM
So I'm looking at the long haul, where .22LR ammo will come back to what it was before. I still had about 4-5K of Winchester, Remington and CCI, and now I have about 4K more.

The last brick of Blazer I bought at Turners was around $25-ish (IIRC). Last time I bought Rem GB from Walmart they were $23-ish.

All your points make sense. Nobody really has a definitive answer for the panic buying of .22LR. :confused: .22LR is the essential SHTF ammo. EVERYBODY has one or more rimfires. More people shooting more .22 because .223 is $1/round? One theory I heard was that...ummm... "certain people" were stocking up before they implement background checks for ammo purchases.:what:

Who knows? All I know is that the wife is burning through .22LR and I'm burning up .45ACP because we both got new toys for Christmas. :D

But that's OK. I've been "panic buying" for the past four years. ;)

Dudemeister
January 27, 2013, 03:29 AM
Who knows? All I know is that the wife is burning through .22LR and I'm burning up .45ACP because we both got new toys for Christmas. :D
Yeah, you and me both, except I am the one doing all the shooting. I usually put away 100 rounds of .45ACP and about 200 of .22LR very time I go to the range.

Thankfully, I reload the .45 so the cost is reduced, but the shooting capacity has increased dramatically, so I don't think I'm saving that much, just shooting a lot more.

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