concealed carry issue question


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Bhi curamach
December 31, 2012, 04:57 PM
Hello all. I received my ccw permit last week and have been mostly happily carrying. Ive found it hard to remember to check the doors for the "stupid sticker" and still have not found a decent holster set up but there could be worse problems.
I'm currently carrying my cz7D,, the compact version. Smaller than the original but not really compact like the rami. But who am I to second guess CZ?
As you may have guessed from the D in the model name its a decocker model which I prefer to safety's as I started down the gun path collecting com bloc mil surplus. Cold war era stuff.
A long way to go for the question I know so here it goes. Any problems just leaving the pistol in this state for extended times? That state being loaded and decocked to the half cocked position.
It goes in the safe when at home because I have two small kids. I believe ive read a few times on this site or maybe gun boards that rounds should not be rechambered.
I don't know if that's realistic or not but if its true I'm going to be screwed as defense rounds are not cheap and if I have to "throw away" a bullet every time I come home I wont be carrying much which defeats the purpose of a permit.
its not part of the question but in case anyone wants to question the safe when at home understand its not a negotiable point for several reasons.
Thanks for reading my ramblings and a happy year to everyone!

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2wheels
December 31, 2012, 05:07 PM
It's fine to leave loaded and at half cock, you won't be wearing out any springs or anything like that anytime soon.

Fryerpower
December 31, 2012, 05:15 PM
I'm not really sure I understand the question, maybe it is specific to your gun.

When I carried a Makarov. I kept it with one round in the chamber, decocked (hammer down), and a full magazine. When I got home I removed the magazine, cycled the slide to clear the chambered round, and then reinserted the magazine. There is absolutely no reason why you cannot reuse the previously chambered round. I certainly did.

When I was ready to go out again I removed the magazine, locked the slide open, manually dropped the extra round directly into the chamber, closed the slide, used the decocker to lower the hammer, and reinserted the magazine.

Does that help or is there something model specific that changes the issue?

Jim

JTQ
December 31, 2012, 05:18 PM
I think bullet setback is a real problem, but I'm not sure you will experience it. While I'm not a 9MM pistol owner, my guess is they are less susceptible to the problem than a .45ACP pistol, particularly a 1911.

My S&W 4506 feeds pretty straight into the barrel over an integral feed ramp. On the other hand, my 1911 smacks the bullet nose off the frame feed ramp, then off the barrel hood and then into the chamber. Lots of contact there, and I get occasional setback with the 1911. It's not usually a problem with the 4506.

My guess is a 9MM, being a relatively slender round takes a much more direct path into the chamber of your CZ and won't experience much setback. I'd measure a box of rounds to see how long they are, then I'd pick one round, measure that one, and cycle round through your pistol, and measure it every couple of times into the chamber to see if you are getting any setback.

The other thing to consider is some brands of ammo are more susceptible to setback than others.

Reefinmike
December 31, 2012, 05:20 PM
bullet setback is a very real thing and can be very dangerous. as the slide strips a round from the mag, the tip hits the feed ramp and it can be pressed into the casing ever so slightly. Do this enough and the bullet can be set back into the case enough to cause a significant pressure spike and a possible KB. I honestly have never understood why many people insert a mag, chamber a round, drop the mag and top it off with another round. I have always simply locked the slide open, drop one in the tube, aim the gun in a safe direction and drop the slide and then insert a full mag. Its faster, easier, and prevents bullet setback.

2wheels
December 31, 2012, 05:24 PM
I honestly have never understood why many people insert a mag, chamber a round, drop the mag and top it off with another round. I have always simply locked the slide open, drop one in the tube, aim the gun in a safe direction and drop the slide and then insert a full mag. Its faster, easier, and prevents bullet setback.

They may be worried about damaging the extractor. How likely that is depending on the gun in question I can't say, but I avoid it on my guns because that's how I was taught.

Cheaper/easier to toss a setback bullet then to replace an extractor.

Fryerpower
December 31, 2012, 05:31 PM
Bullet setback! Ok, now I understand the concern. I've never thought about that before. I used to cycle to load, drop the mag, add a round, and then reinsert. I never had a problem with bullet setback, but maybe it was the gun design or the steel cased ammo I used. Not an issue now since I feed a round manually as described above.

Jim

Reefinmike
December 31, 2012, 05:36 PM
here are some fine examples of setback I found at the range. the first one is one with no setback and proper OAl. Id hate to be around to see the one on the very right shot :uhoh:

Fryerpower
December 31, 2012, 05:47 PM
Wow! That is straight up scary!

Jim

Bhi curamach
December 31, 2012, 09:11 PM
I don't believe there are any major differences in regards to this particular issue. Thanks for the response.
I had a Russian Mak but stupidly traded it. One of my regrets. Would have been a great carry pistol with some Buffalo Bore ammo.

I'm not entirely certain that's the correct name so apologies if I got it wrong.
Ah, darn. I meant this to be in response to Fryerpower but did it wrong.
All others mentioning set back. Thank you. This was the term used, I could not remember it and I don't believe the poster provided an explanation.
Inserting the round manually, so simple I didn't think of it!
Appreciate all the help.

smalls
December 31, 2012, 10:10 PM
If it goes into the safe, why bother unloading it? Just leave as is.

ApacheCoTodd
December 31, 2012, 10:27 PM
here are some fine examples of setback I found at the range. the first one is one with no setback and proper OAl. Id hate to be around to see the one on the very right shot :uhoh:
Yikes! It's like Billy Bob's "compressed load" scale.

Deer_Freak
January 1, 2013, 05:32 AM
The ammo in the photo is not properly crimped. Switch to Aguila or even WWB.

Lost Sheep
January 1, 2013, 05:56 AM
Which amply demonstrates how to protect yourself. Get a $25 set of calipers and measure your cartridges every once in a while and inspect the nose for deformation.

If you ever find that bullets get set back a bunch, find another brand of ammunition, see if reshaping your magazine lips can solve the problem or have a gunsmith reshape your feed ramp. If you find that a bullet can suddenly and unexpectedly get set deeper, that can be an unexpected and unpredictable danger.

As far as protecting the extractor from damage when you drop the slide on a chambered round, I have found that I can drop a cartridge in the ejector port and line it up with the chamber without the nose of the bullet hitting the feed ramp with any force at all. Then I can easily let the cartridge settle under the extractor and let the slide close, there is no stress on the extractor at all. I usually have the magazine not completely inserted, so I don't strip an extra round, then set the magazine.

Some people may say that I have just introduced an amount of unreliability in my firearm, but I say that if my gun has not proved 100% reliable with this way of handling, then I shouldn't be relying on it yet.

My guns cycle 100% whether I close the slide slowly or fast. Well, maybe not after a shooting session, but when they are clean, 100%.

Does anyone else to this? I have never had a problem with a partially closed slide or improperly chambered cartridge.

Lost Sheep

Eleanor416Rigby
January 1, 2013, 08:08 AM
+1 to those who previously posted that if you are getting dangerous bullet setback from cycling a round with the slide, then there is a major design flaw with the pistol, the cartrige, or both.

If I had to throw a round away every time I chambered it but didn't fire it, I would change ammo or throw away the pistol.

F-111 John
January 1, 2013, 09:07 AM
On the left is Federal Hydra-Shok 135 gr 9mm. On the right is Federal Hi-Shok 115 gr 9mm. Roll crimping has so far prevented bullet setback.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8352/8333723720_f473624a30_z.jpg

Rail Driver
January 1, 2013, 10:11 AM
bullet setback is a very real thing and can be very dangerous. as the slide strips a round from the mag, the tip hits the feed ramp and it can be pressed into the casing ever so slightly. Do this enough and the bullet can be set back into the case enough to cause a significant pressure spike and a possible KB. I honestly have never understood why many people insert a mag, chamber a round, drop the mag and top it off with another round. I have always simply locked the slide open, drop one in the tube, aim the gun in a safe direction and drop the slide and then insert a full mag. Its faster, easier, and prevents bullet setback.
locking the slide back and chambering a round manually WILL damage the extractor on many (most) modern semi-auto pistols. I've seen more than one pistol damaged in this manner. Please don't do that and don't advise others to do it.

beatledog7
January 1, 2013, 10:19 AM
Perhaps a Reloading 101 review:

Roll crimping is not appropriate for cartridges that headspace on the case mouth, as most semi-auto rounds do. A taper crimp may be required to allow smooth chambering, but not a roll crimp. Roll crimping is for revolvers and tube-fed rifles.

Neither taper nor roll crimping enhances neck tension, ever. You either have proper tension based on steps taken prior to crimping, or you don't. Over-crimping of either type can negate neck tension.

Bullet setback can happen with any semi-auto cartridge, but with properly loaded ammo it will not occur to a dangerous degree with just one or two chamberings. With just about any round, if you repeatedly cycle it through the action, eventually the bullet will get pushed into the case further than intended.

KenW.
January 1, 2013, 11:05 AM
What is a "stupid sticker"?

JTQ
January 1, 2013, 11:08 AM
If you have problem with your gun and ammo of choice, maybe you need one of these.

http://www.dlsports.com/pistol-ammo-more-durable.html

colorado_handgunner
January 1, 2013, 11:15 AM
What is a "stupid sticker"?

Sign in Window saying no guns allowed on property. A" gun free zone" or "criminal free for all" depending on how you see it.

"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence"
George Washington

"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have,"
Gerald Ford

Nasty
January 1, 2013, 11:20 AM
Stupid stickers = Do Not Patronize While Armed signs

I only use the stupid stickers to help me decide where to spend my money. I prefer to spend my money at places without the stickers. They don't impact me as long as I am carrying *concealed* and not using. If I need to use, I have more to concern myself about than if they wanted me carry or not.

Formal public institutions such as courts, schools and such are one thing and should always be respected until no gun areas are found to be unconstitutional.

Giving some anonymous shop keeper executive privilege over a Constitutional right is absurd.

KenW.
January 1, 2013, 11:27 AM
Ah. Alright. We don't have those in Utah.:neener:

F-111 John
January 1, 2013, 12:47 PM
Beatledog, I was referring to the factory crimp near the base of the seated bullet in the image I posted, not a "roll crimp" that would be put on the case mouth of a rimmed cartridge often into a cannelure on the bullet.

What would you call that "roll like" crimping on the factory loads? Ring crimping? They're not there on cheap FMJ target loads like WWB, which only have the taper crimp.

JCMM
January 1, 2013, 01:04 PM
Guys, pardon my ignorance, but I am not very familiar with this issue, although I can see the danger clearly. My question is does this pertain to rifle loads as well? My son and I both shoot Remington 700 series rifles (mine in the 7mag and his in 243). We have had many a cold day in a deer stand where we didn't pull the trigger and then ejected the round when we left the lease.

In a lead tipped rounds, you can see some change in the very tip of the round, but after reading this, I am concerned. Any feedback would be great.

JCMM

chris in va
January 1, 2013, 11:37 PM
No, the exposed lead tip in a rifle round doesn't get 'pushed' into the bullet. It might get deformed or smushed though.

Getting back to the OP's question, I found HydraShok rounds to suffer badly from setback. So far the Golden Saber's haven't budged after repeated rechamberings.

beatledog7
January 2, 2013, 12:26 AM
I was referring to the factory crimp near the base of the seated bullet in the image I posted, not a "roll crimp" that would be put on the case mouth of a rimmed cartridge often into a cannelure on the bullet.

Ah, that "crimp." I think you are correct regarding its purpose in factory ammo, but there is a more reliable way to avoid setback: Don't unload the gun each time you store it. I have a very clear "flag" to place on the door of my RSC whenever it contains a loaded gun and separate areas both in the RSC and outside of it for such guns. Of course I still treat every gun as if it's loaded, but these I know are loaded, so I don't chamber check them when I pick them up.

If I have to unload, the round that was chambered gets measured along with a sampling of the others in that mag. I have yet to encounter demonstrable setback in a handloaded or factory round in .380, 9mm, .40cal, or .45ACP. SO the round gets put back in the mag and fired when the time comes.

Note also that if one reloads these ringed cases there is little chance that the ring will be in the right place to curtail setback with the chosen bullet and seating depth. It's a one-time deal.

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