[TechBrute]

Article (http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-b1_1shotbycop-rmar05,0,6696385.story?coll=all-news-hed)

Trooper accidentally shoots man
Authorities: Schuylkill resident was in 'daze' when found hiding.

By David Slade
Of The Morning Call

State troopers, alerted by contractors there might be a burglar in a Schuylkill County home they were working in Thursday, cornered a man in the upstairs bathroom and accidentally shot him while trying to arrest him.

The man turned out to be the homeowner.

David L. Freed Jr., 51, of Wayne Township was hit in the shoulder by a bullet from Trooper Kirk Kirkland's .40-caliber handgun, Trooper Ray Albert said.

Freed was taken by ambulance to Pottsville Hospital, where he was treated and released, Albert said.

''Luckily, it was pretty superficial,'' Albert said of Freed's wound.

Police have filed no charges against Freed, but said they are investigating.

Efforts to reach Freed were unsuccessful.

Contractors who were at the house to do plumbing and heating work thought a burglar might be inside because they heard someone walking around and talking upstairs. The person didn't answer their calls, so they called police about 11 a.m., Albert said.

He said the door to the house at 375 Blue Mountain Road was unlocked when the contractors got there.

Four troopers from the state police barracks at Schuylkill Haven talked with the contractors, then searched the house for five to 10 minutes with guns drawn, repeatedly calling for anyone in the house to show themselves, Albert said.

Eventually, they narrowed their search to the bathroom, where they pulled back the shower curtain and found Freed ''crouched down and hiding in the shower,'' police said.

''In the process of putting him down on the floor and handcuffing him, one of the officers' guns went off,'' Albert said. The shot came while Kirkland was holding the gun during the attempted arrest, Albert said.

After Freed was identified, he was taken to the hospital, police said.

Albert said police don't know why Freed didn't answer when the contractors and later police called out, or why he was hiding in the shower. Freed was the only person in the house, Albert said.

''It's a mystery to us right now,'' Albert said. ''He didn't verbally respond and appeared to be in some kind of a daze.''

Albert said state police procedure when any weapon is fired calls for an internal investigation by the Bureau of Professional Responsibility, and one will be conducted in this case.

Also following procedure, Kirkland will be limited to duties at the police station during the investigation.

david.slade@mcall.com

610-379-3222
Copyright © 2004, The Morning Call


********************************

Police have filed no charges against Freed, but said they are investigating. What are they going to charge him with, trespassing in his own home?:banghead:

After Freed was identified, he was taken to the hospital, police said. I picture the JBTs standing around scratching their heads:
JBT1: We better figure out who this guy is so we can decide if we should call an ambulance or wait around for him to bleed out.
JBT2: I vote for no witnesses.

then searched the house for five to 10 minutes with guns drawn, Ok, how big was the house anyway? They searched for 10 minutes and still hadn't covered the whole thing.

''In the process of putting him down on the floor and handcuffing him, one of the officers' guns went off,'' Magically... on its own... with no help. Quick, sue the gun manufacturer. Maybe if the cop had a "smart gun" as opposed to actually being smart himself, this whole tragedy could have been avoided.

This cop has now accidentally shot more people than all the gun owners I've ever known.

[Gump]

Police have filed no charges against Freed, but said they are investigating.


That'll be one count of Obstruction of Accidental Discharge:rolleyes:




I'd put money that the Homeowner had some sort of Medical condtion like diabetes and was confused. As far as I know that is not aggainst the law:confused:

[kbr80]

But these guys are porfessionals. They have more knowledge than us, and have more of a need for firearms.

:neener:

If a citizen had done this, his ??? would be under the jail.

[Leatherneck]

''Luckily, it was pretty superficial,'' Albert said of Freed's wound. Superficial is when it happens to you. Life-threatening is when it happens to me. :neener:

TC
TFL Survivor

[mete]

I'll bet he was a lot more dazed after he was shot.

[armoredman]

Oh, to only have that happen to me - the city/county/state would be paying for the house....and the boat.....and the walk-in gun safe.....

[Old Fuff]

I presume the cartridge in question was a .40 S&W, and likely loaded with one of the currently favored "high performance bullets." However the report (thankfully) seems to indicate that it didn't cause any unusual incapacitation. Makes you wonder about the “knock ‘um down and lay ‘um out reputation these rounds have with some people who wouldn’t think of leaving home without them.

[peashooter]

What are the chances that the LEO was carrying a Glock? :evil:

[TechBrute]

I presume the cartridge in question was a .40 S&W, and likely loaded with one of the currently favored "high performance bullets." However the report (thankfully) seems to indicate that it didn't cause any unusual incapacitation. Makes you wonder about the “knock ‘um down and lay ‘um out reputation these rounds have with some people who wouldn’t think of leaving home without them. The article seems to indicate that it was superficial. Contrary to public opinion, no matter the caliber, it's not going to knock you down if it hits the tip of your pinky.

[pax]

Ok, how big was the house anyway? They searched for 10 minutes and still hadn't covered the whole thing.
Um, clearing a house carefully and properly is a slow process. This wasn't a dynamic entry by a SWAT team chasing after known bad guys, after all. The situation called for a slow, careful search and that's what they did.

It actually sounds as though the officers did everything right, right up until Officer Kirkland's ND. :(

pax

[Kodiak AK]

This is why TK doesn't want cops to have CCW across the nation .:o

[jsalcedo]

This is about the upteenth million time I've read of a cop + glock + ND since I started paying attention in 1997.


When cops carried double action .357s and .38s were there as many "accidents"?

Maybe there is something about lack of training mixed with carelessness
and a gun with a 6Lb trigger pull with no safety.

Glocks are good guns and are prolific in todays law enforcement agencies.
However, they are not the right choice with the level of training mandated by the departments.

[danbh]

I would rather be with a bunch of CCW people carrying firearms than the police. I know a number of them that only shoot one a year now isn't that just dandy..

:rolleyes:

[Steve in PA]

PSP doesn't carry Glocks, they carry Beretta .40s.

When you don't follow the four golden rules of firearms safety, crap like this happens.

[Bainx]

If a citizen had done this, his ??? would be under the jail.

Yup and, the same citizen would not have been given the typical "Administrative Leave" for a few days to get his head and story together.

[artherd]

And a Beretta has about a SIXTEEN pound innitial DA trigger....

[Range Ninja]

It's a good thing most cops only practice once year, that homeowner could have been injured badly. Why do people on here insist on the Glock bashing? Do revolvers have safeties? Maybe it's time to bash the idiots that can't keep their damn, finger off the trigger till they are ready to shoot.:banghead: Maybe the morons could practice a little more. Maybe even become proficient with their weapon. Ahhh, but that could only be a dream. Don't blame the weapon, blame the numb nuts operating the weapon.:cuss:

[Jim March]

Diabetic insulin shock was the first thing I thought of. He's the right age for it; owning a house being refurbished makes drug abuse rather unlikely although not impossible.

[thefitzvh]

My question is: why were they cuffing him in his own house?

Is it just me, or is the training and judgement of the average LEO getting worse and worse...

Case in point:

Last night at work, there was a drunk guy who got in his car, and immediately backed into another one. He wanted to leave, and I stalled him by talking until the sheriff's dept got there. The sheriff came over to me and asked us what happened, so we told him.


AFTER he heard we were bouncers, he immediately wanted to know why we were "irresponsibly" serving him if he was drunk.
Never mind that we'd thrown him out an hour ago, and he went to the bowling alley to continue drinking.

So apparently, if you get drunk, it's the BAR's fault. LOL

James

P.S. Jim March, didja get my email?

[Blain]

Only cops can be trusted with guns.

That's what Hitler said.

[Quartus]

So apparently, if you get drunk, it's the BAR's fault. LOL


In some states, that's how the law reads. The fault here was that the officer jumped to conclusions rather than asking more questions, NOT that he (clumsily) pointed out that it's wrong to continue to serve booze to someone who's getting drunk.


Ok, how big was the house anyway? They searched for 10 minutes and still hadn't covered the whole thing.


Sounds about right. Do a shoot house exercise some time and you'll have a much different view of cop shows.



It actually sounds as though the officers did everything right, right up until Officer Kirkland's ND.


Agreed. And after that they arrested the homeowner for getting shot and are now "investigating". Uh, does it need to be pointed out that they no longer have the excuse of doing something in the heat of the moment or based on incomplete information? The pressure is off - they know who he is. And they are "investigating".

:banghead:

[TechBrute]

Do a shoot house exercise some time and you'll have a much different view of cop shows. :rolleyes: Yeah, you know me and who I am. :rolleyes: BTDT, thanks.

[BeLikeTrey]

Is it SOP to have your finger on the trigger?
Who cares what the trigger pull is? or the lbs on a trigger? I would think the trigger GUARD was made to rest those twitchy fingers on.

[standingbear]

Albert said police don't know why Freed didn't answer when the contractors and later police called out, or why he was hiding in the shower. ummm..maybe he was scared?pointing the guns to his head and shouting while dragging him from his shower or where ever they put him is bound to escalate the situation.fingers off the trigger would be a good start.

[fix]

Police have filed no charges against Freed, but said they are investigating.

How civil of them.:rolleyes:

[12-34hom]

The cop bashers are in full swing on this one.

All the standard references & clichés are bandied about.

Autocrats - goose stepping down the Internets superhighway - with the same familiar drone and din - Their message never waivers.


Can ya hear me now?

But hey; somebody's got to stand up for freedom & liberty.

I know i sleep better at night knowing these patriots are ever vigilant.

Thanks.

12-34hom.

[seeker_two]

12-34hom: I hope you're not suggesting that the LEO's in this case did no wrong, because I'm seeing a few questions that need to be answered on BOTH sides here....

How did the gun discharge? Mechanical failure? Finger on trigger? Nervous LEO? :scrutiny:
Why did they wait until Freed was "identified" before notifying EMT's? :scrutiny:
Why didn't the LEO's identify Freed BEFORE arresting him? :scrutiny:
Did Freed attempt to fight the LEO's? :scrutiny:
Did Freed try to ID himself before the LEO's attempted arrest? :scrutiny:

I'm reserving judgement until some of these questions are answered. At worst, the LEO's involved could use some remedial training in gun handling & suspect interview skills. At best, it was an unfortunate accident w/ blame on BOTH sides.

Let's see what develops from the investigation...:scrutiny:

[tcsd1236]

Obviously you've never cleared a house on an alarm call......it takes awhile to do it properly.

[tcsd1236]

"My question is: why were they cuffing him in his own house?"
Because he wasn't identified yet. Reread the article.

[TechBrute]

Obviously you've never cleared a house on an alarm call......it takes awhile to do it properly. I've seen CSI and they did it in less than 30 seconds. Same with CSI - Miami, too. And in Lethal weapon 3 (or was it 4) they cleared a whole neighborhood in no time at all.

[TechBrute]

"My question is: why were they cuffing him in his own house?"
Because he wasn't identified yet. Reread the article. Yeah, don't you know that you have no rights until the cops have determined that you haven't done anything wrong. You're going on the nieve assumption that they'll only throw you in cuff, humiliate, degrade, embarrass, and (based on this episode) shoot you if you've actually done something wrong.

[Travis McGee]

Obviously the police did NOTHING wrong here. If they have to shoot a few homeowners in their own bathrooms, after dragging them wet and naked from their showers, well, that'll serve as a lesson to other homeowners! The important thing is, NO POLICE WERE HURT. "Everybody goes home" once again prevailed. Just some poor dumb Schmo got shot. Who gives a damn? It was only a civilian.

[tcsd1236]

"Yeah, don't you know that you have no rights until the cops have determined that you haven't done anything wrong. You're going on the nieve assumption that they'll only throw you in cuff, humiliate, degrade, embarrass, and (based on this episode) shoot you if you've actually done something wrong."

Guess what: almost any officer, upon finding you at the scene of a call like that under those circumstances will cuff you til you are identified. Don't get all huffy because you are ignorant of police procedures. Everyone in a situation like that IS a potential bad guy til you are ID'd as otherwise. You see, unlike TV ( where I am sure you get ALL of YOUR law enforcement training ), in real life we don't have the benefit of background music, camera angles or even prologue camera scenes setting up our information so we know who is or is not a bad guy. If we have dealt with the guy before we may know he's a bad guy, but thats about it. Anyone else is a potential bad guy simply because we don't know otherwise.

Yes, its unfortunate that the officer had a ND. He'll most likely get some disciplinary action out of it because it involved someone getting injured.....but its NOT as if he was some sort of "JBT" as has been commented on here...how many times have I seen threads on gun boards about gun owners having ND's??? You guys aren't perfect, either, and most of you never shoot in any situation other than recreationally. Hopefuly the officer learns from his mistake in this incident and it never reoccurs.

[fix]

Whoooboy. Looks like we've got the camp split again. On one side we have the "Cops are JBTs, Hang em" crowd , and on the other side we have the "Cops have a tough job, give the guy a break cuz you have no idea how tough it is to not shoot a homeowner""crowd. Just this once, can we please have a member who is LE step forward and condemn this action, particularly the idea that the homeowner might actually be charged with something. I'll be willing to play the part of the non-LE who argues on the cop's behalf if that happens. But alas, I'm afraid the "us vs. them" crap is bound to continue, only this time...it's the fault of the LE members who have posted thus far. Usually the shoe is on the other foot, but I think this time any reasonable person is going to have to side with the homeowner.

[BluesBear]

Point #1... In an unknown situation everybody gets cuffed. After everyone is safe you can sort out who's who.
Law enforcement arrived on the scene after being called by the people working on the house. The homeowner was thought to NOT be at home. The person they found in the shower had not responded to verbal communication.
Are ya with me so far? Good.

What would you do, dear homeowners, if you were awakened in the midele of the night by a noise in your home. you called out and got no reply. You found someone in your shower who did not respond to your verbal commands. What would you do? Whould you be a little worried about your safety? Damn right you would.

Now Point #2...

There is absolutely No, and I repeat NO, excuse for any of the LEO on scene to have NEGLIGENTLY shot anyone! It was pisspoor performance on their part as well as horribly bad manners for them to have done so.

Yeah stuff happens. Bad thing happen to good people. All of those poor-poor-pitiful-me cliches apply here. But the bottom line is the Police schmucked up big time. And somebody has to cowboy up and be responsible for their actions.

Sadly the homeowner was shot, his life will never be the same.
Sadly the officer screwed up and his life will never be the same.
Sadly the contractor who phoned the police will probably have a little guilt for not being sure the homeowner wasn't home.
Sadly the taxpayers will have to cough up some money because the homeowner's gonna get rich.

It was truely a sad day.

So lets get the settlement over with so the homeowner can get hopefully get back to his life.
Let's discipline the officer and figure out where the training failed, fix it, learrn from it and pray that it never happens again.

Let's all learn from this so it never happens to any of us.

Now everybody take a deep breath and shake hands so we can all get back to arguing about 9mm Glocks & .45 ACP 1911s or AK-47s & AR-15s.

[TechBrute]

Guess what: almost any officer, upon finding you at the scene of a call like that under those circumstances will cuff you til you are identified. Don't get all huffy because you are ignorant of police procedures. Everyone in a situation like that IS a potential bad guy til you are ID'd as otherwise. I'm familiar with the procedure. See, I even pointed out that you don't have to do anything wrong to be handcuffed, embarrassed, humiliated, and degraded by the cops. They'll do so until they figure out that you aren't the bad guy. From your view it's them against everyone and everyone's guilty until proven innocent. Heaven help the poor person that has the misfortune of owning a home, since obviously that's become some sort of crime lately.

You see, unlike TV ( where I am sure you get ALL of YOUR law enforcement training ), in real life we don't have the benefit of background music, camera angles or even prologue camera scenes setting up our information so we know who is or is not a bad guy. See, now you're making it personal. Attacking someone personally is usually a response to being on the losing end of an arguement, and you even do it without the benefit of actually knowing who I am, what training I have, and what I do. You're assuming something, and you know what happens when you assume...

Actually I've had extensive police training. I own all 4 Lethal Weapon movies, and I've seen nearly every episode of CSI, CSI: Miami, NYPD Blue, CHiPs, and Starsky and Hutch. I like to play with the one gun I own while watching those shows, and I draw and "shoot" everyone that's a badguy. I hardly ever hit any of the goodguys. And's I've only shot the TV once (see, I have all the requirements to be a cop.)

Point #1... In an unknown situation everybody gets cuffed. Screw that. I can understand frisking someone to determine that they don't have a weapon, but handcuffing everyone until they're proven innocent is JBT crap.

[tcsd1236]

"Heaven help the poor person that has the misfortune of owning a home, since obviously that's become some sort of crime lately."

The handcuffing had nothing to do with him being a homeowner.

"See, now you're making it personal."

No, I am NOT. I am merely pointing out that people are criticizing this incident who have ZERO law enforcement experience and have never been in that situation. I have been in many such situations of having to clear a house, usually with those d@*n alarms that pulsate so bad that you can't think straight ( I carry ear plugs for those ) and scream "INTRUDER INTRUDER>>>LEAVE IMMEDIATELY>>>THE POLICE HAVE BEEN CALLED ( no kidding C3PO, I am here already, you can shut down now ). Its routinely done with weapon drawn, particularly if a door is found open. Have I shot anyone? No, I haven't. Closest I ever came was shooting a life sized cut out of John Wayne holding a handgun at about 2 AM til I realized what it was. Had me going for a second, I have to admit....yes, the officer screwed up. Yes, he will never be the same. However, it was an accident, in a situation that just about any officer not stuck behind a desk could find themselves in . The guy doesn't need to be skewered any more than he already is. If his career survives, he will have learned from the experience.

"Screw that. I can understand frisking someone to determine that they don't have a weapon, but handcuffing everyone until they're proven innocent is JBT crap."

You are welcome to your opinion, but I will have to disagree. An unsecured person is a potential threat source. Enough people have said that already that you MUST realize that this is standard procedure. You are free to criticize from your LaZBoy.

[TechBrute]

An unsecured person is a potential threat source. Enough people have said that already that you MUST realize that this is standard procedure. Yes, I realize it's standard procedure. I'm not disputing that. You have the attitude that there's nothing wrong with cuffing everyone in sight and you probably wonder why people don't rally behind the boys in blue.

You are free to criticize from your LaZBoy. Yes, unless you are a cop, you are a couch potato. :rolleyes:

[Tamara]

Oh, I don't think we can let Johnny Law bogart all the blame on this one; there's plenty to pass around.

Let's start from the top:

1) Contractors show up, find front door unlocked and someone walking around and talking upstairs. No mention is given of whether or not a vehicle is parked outside, but on my planet this is usually a pretty good indicator that the inhabitants of the dwelling are present. Anyhow, the Yale Debate Team decides that the best way to see if this is actually the homeowner or not is to yell up the stairs. When they don't get an answer, they evacuate and call the heat. Strike one.

2) Mr. Freed was upstairs walking around and talking. He didn't answer the contractors. We don't know why. He may have been addled. He may have been deaf as a post. He may have been dictating an important memo. He could have been on an important long-distance phone call. He may have been engaged in a potentially embarrassing wanking scenario. Whatever. He really, really, should have said "Hang on a minute, Mildred, these knobs downstairs keep yelling for me," and answered them. Strike two.

3) Finally, the guys with the guns show up and proceed to sweep & clear. One would hope that they loudly identified themselves as the heat, but I'm not sure what the approved tactics of the staties in PA are. Anyway, Mr. Freed, now apparently aware of men with guns moving through the house, panicked and hid in the shower, rather than saying, "Hey! I live here! Get out of my house!" or some other such thing to establish his identity. Thankfully his response to intruders was to cower in the shower, and not bunker down with a shotgun. Strike three, split evenly (pending further evidence) 'tween the cops and Freed.

4) Only now do we get to the troopers Keystone Kops trigger discipline.

[fix]

You are free to criticize from your LaZBoy.

That's the way. Keep that us vs. them battle going. Sorry, I have no sympathy for cops who have this attitude. "Protect and Serve" has morphed into "Suspect and Unnerve." But if that's the way you want it...then keep up the good work. You're well on your way to having it that way with me.

[pax]

That's about enough of that. :scrutiny:

"Spamming, trolling, flaming, and personal attacks are prohibited. You can disagree with other members, even vehemently, but it must be done in a well-mannered form. Attack the argument, not the arguer."

Remember?

pax

In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane. -- Oscar Wilde