Holding a C&R in current climate


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sonick808
January 2, 2013, 03:20 AM
Greetings,

I was wondering, are any crufflers here turning in their C&R licenses, or planning to not renew them ? Due to the current anti-gun fervor that is. I am up for a renewal and I plan to go ahead with it, unless someone has a good reason, or there is a group mentality trending in the other direction, I may reconsider.

Non-crufflers feel free to input; would you hold a C&R FFL during these turbulent times ? I can't see a reason NOT to, now that i'm already on-record, but I'm not gifted with foresight in these types of situations.

Thanks for any input :)

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Centurian22
January 2, 2013, 04:02 AM
I am not a 'cruffler' (yet) but own a Mosin Nagant if that sorta counts? I would say given current conditions that it would be very important to renew and maintain your C&R. It is a further expression of our 2nd amend rights. Also if any of this 'Ban BS' actually goes anywhere C&R's might be one of our best options!

Telekinesis
January 2, 2013, 04:26 AM
I've got a year or so before I need to renew, but I would keep it. I haven't used it for many gun purchases, but I do enjoy all the discounts it gets from places like midway and brownells. As far as the government viewing you as the "problem", most of the guns that people use C&Rs for are surplus bolt actions and pistols. That said, it amuses me to no end that it is technically possible to find AK-47s, FALs, M14s, and even the scary AR15/M16s that ARE C&R eligible weapons. I believe the all inclusive 50 year old classification is up to 1963 now which includes a host of current military weapons.

I also enjoy that when I'm debating gun control with non-gun people I can tell them that I do in fact have a FFL. It seems to make them think I have more legitimacy than your average "gun nut". They just don't have to know what type of FFL it is or that I only had to do 5 minutes of paperwork to get it ;)

GBExpat
January 2, 2013, 08:57 AM
I have had my 03FFL since 2001. My current expiration date is in 2014.

Actually, I have been considering letting it expire since I have not purchased a C&R firearm in awhile and now rarely buy supplies from online vendors offering "dealer" discounts to 03FFL Holders.

Now I plan on renewing it ... every time that it comes up for renewal.

And I am doing all that I can to assure that a MOLON LABE scenario does not become a reality.

sonick808
January 2, 2013, 09:14 AM
hmm good points all. I think I'll go ahead and renew; I can't think of any real negatives, and I do love having UPS show up with new pieces for the collection as well as saving $ at Brownell's.

statelineblues
January 2, 2013, 09:26 AM
Had my first C&R back in the late '80s but let it lapse until 2006. Just got my renewed C&R last month, so I'm good for the next three years and I am planning to keep renewing it.

herkyguy
January 2, 2013, 10:19 AM
please explain the C&R. I don't quite understand the implications and am quite interested.

Sergei Mosin
January 2, 2013, 10:30 AM
The current manufactured anti-gun hysteria is not going to stop me from doing any of the firearms-related things I do, which includes renewing my C&R when it comes due later this year.

herkyguy, the FFL-03, Collector of Curios and Relics, is a type of FFL that allows the holder to acquire eligible firearms (which typically have to be at least 50 years old) in interstate commerce, shipped directly to the licensee's door. As with all FFLs, you apply through BATFE to get one. It costs $30 every three years, but it saves a lot of money on transfers if you collect old guns (alternatively, it costs a lot by making it easier to buy old guns!) and many online dealers such as Midway, Brownell's, Graf's, etc offer dealer discounts to C&R holders.

mgmorden
January 2, 2013, 10:42 AM
I can't think of any real negatives,

Records retention requirements. C&R holders very rarely get audited, but just like a regular FFL if you do its a hassle. If the anti-gun climate gets particularly hostile they may up frequency or intrusiveness of C&R records audits.

Unlike regular FFL's who have to keep their records for a period of 20 years after closing up shop, C&R FFL's have no retention requirement on their records after your license lapses, so you can safely destroy your records if you let your license expire.

Still debating it myself. I have all the C&R rifles I'm likely to ever buy. For handguns, the license makes less sense - C&R holders can't use USPS to receive packages, so often times the extra $12-15 I spend on shipping to myself vs having the item shipped to the regular FFL guy I use equates to the transfer fee. Also, UPS cannot leave a firearm without a signature, and there's no one at home during the day, so I usually have to take time off of work to go pickup an item from UPS. My FFL is available until 8:00pm for pickups so I can go after work.

About the only reason I still have to maintain it is for dealer discounts, but its getting to where wonderful capitalism is working its magic on the net and generally if one store has a certain price available to dealers somewhere else will be selling it for the same price to the public.

My current license doesn't expire until 2014 but I'm seriously considering not renewing at that time.

stonecutter2
January 2, 2013, 10:46 AM
please explain the C&R. I don't quite understand the implications and am quite interested.
You are federally licensed to collect firearms that are curios and relics - there is some gray area in that, but basically this isn't a "buy a crate of old rifles and resell them for a living" - that is an FFL01 (gun dealer). FFL03 (collector/C&R) is basically to make it easier for any C&R eligible firearm to be transferred across state lines without difficulty, right to your front door. No transfer fees from an FFL01. No special background checks (federal level check done when you apply). It is for collecting, not for the purposes of making a living off of transfers/guns though. There are no specific limitations on selling your acquisitions, except that it should be for the purposes of furthering your collection.

C&R firearms are those that are 50 years or older (automatically eligible), or those deemed by the ATF to be curios or relics though they're not that old (CZ82 or P64, as an example).

You must maintain a bound book of your acquisitions/dispositions (sales/transfers). It's very easy to do.

stonecutter2
January 2, 2013, 10:53 AM
I don't know if I'm going to renew mine.

Mainly because C&R's are drying up in general and I've attained what I really wanted (K98, CZ82, P64, Mosin, etc). I don't foresee much expansion in what becomes available. I also expect prices to rise overall...negating the benefit.

I expect records retention requirements for FFL03 to be modified/expanded, and the fee will go up. Again, discouraging people from obtaining one, and negating the benefit of having one.

dogtown tom
January 2, 2013, 11:08 AM
mgmorden Quote:
I can't think of any real negatives,
Records retention requirements.
Oh good grief.
EVERY gun owner should keep records on his guns. The requirements to retain your C&R records are minimal and all you need is your handwritten notes in a "bound book" of: manufacturer/model/serial#/caliber/where it came from/where it went when you disposed of it.



C&R holders very rarely get audited, but just like a regular FFL if you do its a hassle.
Nothing anywhere close.:rolleyes:
C&R (unlike other FFL's) can take only their bound book to an ATF compliance inspection.....no meeting at your home needed. ATF CANNOT come to do a compliance inspection of your licensed premises like they can with other FFL's......unless you allow it.
ATF will not inspect your firearms vs the records in your bound book. C&R's do not have 4473's, inventory or Multiple Sale forms to match up with the bound book.




If the anti-gun climate gets particularly hostile they may up frequency or intrusiveness of C&R records audits.
It would need a change in Federal law to do so.

GBExpat
January 2, 2013, 11:22 AM
DUPE deleted

ball3006
January 2, 2013, 11:34 AM
in Nov of 2008. Because obummer got elected, I let mine expire. No need to be in obummer's radar sweep. Besides, the golden age of C&R was just about over. I was getting ready to retire which means no money anyway for gun purchases.....chris3

leadchucker
January 2, 2013, 11:36 AM
Based on the reports from the C&R gun boards, most times, the auditor only wants to see your book. Have no doubt, it is definitely the option of the auditor to ask to see the firearms, but unless you give him reason to, he probably won't want the hassle.

I may or may not renew next time. That's two years away. The current climate hasn't affected my thoughts on it. Yet.

il.bill
January 2, 2013, 11:45 AM
What?

I do not understand what the 'current climate' would have on renewing my C&R 03FFL. If it is a black helicopter paranoia thing, the feds already have your personal information, and my Bound Book only contains items in my C&R collection; none of my 'modern' weapons are listed. If it is concern about being exposed as a firearm collector by some reporter - who cares, unless you are somehow ashamed of it? The only reasons I see to not renew would be if I no longer plan to purchase a C&R eligible firearm and save the dealer transfer fee, or if I no longer care to get discounts with some online suppliers.

I realize that I am often quite dense, but I do not understand anxiety about renewal at this time.

mgmorden
January 2, 2013, 11:52 AM
Oh good grief.
EVERY gun owner should keep records on his guns. The requirements to retain your C&R records are minimal and all you need is your handwritten notes in a "bound book" of: manufacturer/model/serial#/caliber/where it came from/where it went when you disposed of it.




Actually I'm no stranger to record keeping - I actually have a log of every range trip I make noting the gun, # of rounds fired, and other aspects of the trip. Keeping records isn't a problem. Being LEGALLY REQUIRED to keep records is another. If I make a minor mistake in my personal records no one cares except myself. An honest mistake in FFL records can cost you 10 years in Club Fed.

Nothing anywhere close.
C&R (unlike other FFL's) can take only their bound book to an ATF compliance inspection.....no meeting at your home needed. ATF CANNOT come to do a compliance inspection of your licensed premises like they can with other FFL's......unless you allow it.
ATF will not inspect your firearms vs the records in your bound book. C&R's do not have 4473's, inventory or Multiple Sale forms to match up with the bound book.
....
It would need a change in Federal law to do so.

You do realize that potential changes to Federal law are being bandied about like crazy now right? It doesn't take much to extend the intrusiveness of potential C&R audits and like I said, right now when weighing the cost to benefits, I'm not really seeing the usefulness of opening myself up to additional scrutiny.

il.bill
January 2, 2013, 12:02 PM
For handguns, the license makes less sense - C&R holders can't use USPS to receive packages, so often times the extra $12-15 I spend on shipping to myself vs having the item shipped to the regular FFL guy I use equates to the transfer fee.

I believe that is incorrect. As a C&R 03FFL holder I can not SEND eligible handguns though the US Mail, but I receive them from importers and 01FFL dealers all the time through the USPS (well, not ALL the time, but with more frequency than my wife would prefer). I do have to be here to sign the receipt for the mail lady, so I can certainly see the convenience of receiving handguns through my local dealer if his transfer fee is not $30 - $50.

To ship a handgun myself to another buyer, whether a C&R collector or any licensed dealer, I must use UPS or FedEx with inflated overnight type rates. Instead I make the transfer out through my 01FFL dealer, since his fee plus USPS mailing costs is less than the other carriers' rates.

mgmorden
January 2, 2013, 12:15 PM
I believe that is incorrect. As a C&R 03FFL holder I can not SEND eligible handguns though the US Mail, but I receive them from importers and 01FFL dealers all the time through the USPS (well, not ALL the time, but with more frequency than my wife would prefer)

That's not legal.

Postal regulations:
11.1.3 Authorized Persons

Subject to 11.1.4, handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, a licensed dealer of firearms, or an authorized agent of the federal government or the government of a state, territory, or district, only when addressed to a person in one of the following categories for use in the person's official duties:

a. Officers of the Army, Coast Guard, Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps.

b. Officers of the National Guard or militia of a state, territory, or district.

c. Officers of the United States or of a state, territory, or district, whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitment.

d. USPS employees authorized by the Chief Postal Inspector.

e. Officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States.

f. Watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a state, territory, or district.

g. Purchasing agent or other designated member of agencies employing officers and employees included in 11.1.3c. through 11.1.3e.

11.1.5 Manufacturers and Dealers

Handguns may also be mailed between licensed manufacturers of firearms and licensed dealers of firearms in customary trade shipments, or for repairing or replacing parts.

Emphasis added to last lline. Since a C&R is neither a licensed manufacturer nor dealer, then the exemption granted by 11.1.5 doesn't apply to C&R holders and they can neither send nor receive handguns via USPS.

GBExpat
January 2, 2013, 01:02 PM
As a C&R 03FFL holder I can not SEND eligible handguns though the US Mail, but I receive them from importers and 01FFL dealers all the time through the USPS ...

Big No-No, that. Perhaps you are confusing USPS with UPS handgun deliveries?

For 11 years I have been an 03FFL licensee and I have received exactly ONE handgun delivery via USPS (about 5-6 years ago) from an Importer in Florida (closed very shortly afterwards by the ATF).

When I realized what was in that unexpected box for which I was signing, my heart skipped a beat. :eek:

I immediately went inside a searched for a USPS Regs Change that would legalize such a shipment. No such thing.

Quite frankly, I was waiting to hear from the ATF ... but never did. :)

MachIVshooter
January 2, 2013, 01:13 PM
I'll be renewing. I don't use it very often, but it sure is convenient when I stumble across a nifty old rimfire or shotgun at the LGS-especially at times like this, when our state background checks are backed up over a week.

mgmorden
January 2, 2013, 02:26 PM
I'll be renewing. I don't use it very often, but it sure is convenient when I stumble across a nifty old rimfire or shotgun at the LGS-especially at times like this, when our state background checks are backed up over a week.

That actually would be a good use for mine except that here if you have a valid CWP you can skip the background check. Just give them your license and they record it without any need to contact NICS.

I have had one shop refuse that option and insist on calling anyways (I didn't protest too much though), but it was a small pawn shop that I doubt would have taken a C&R either.

CU74
January 2, 2013, 04:41 PM
I let mine expire a few months back. It was handy for awhile, but I haven't bought a C&R gun in a long time. Discounts were nice as well, but I did some buying back in 2007 when it was apparent that our next President would be a Dimmicrat. I no longer have a "need" for a C&R License.

Neo-Luddite
January 2, 2013, 06:25 PM
No worries on the C/R. I've had mine almost ten years. I'd keep it. You can always turn it in.

USAF_Vet
January 2, 2013, 07:01 PM
Got my CPL for Christmas, will probably get my C&R FFL started for my birthday. It's what, $30? Even if I don't buy anything right off the bat, having it just to stick it to the anti's is good enough reason for me.

The more firearms licenses and firearms owners there are, the harder it will be to get away with stripping them away.

jmace57
January 2, 2013, 07:22 PM
Keep in mind that every year that goes by adds another year of firearms to the list (as far as hitting 50 years) - so anything before 1964 as of yesterday.

lonehunter
January 2, 2013, 08:02 PM
double post

lonehunter
January 2, 2013, 08:03 PM
In august of 2012 I bought 2 handguns using my C&R and had them delivered to my door. Total shipping was $25.00 If I had them sent to a regular FFL I still would have been charged shipping and I would have had to pay the transfer on top of that.

Jeff

il.bill
January 2, 2013, 08:40 PM
That's not legal.

Postal regulations:


Emphasis added to last lline. Since a C&R is neither a licensed manufacturer nor dealer, then the exemption granted by 11.1.5 doesn't apply to C&R holders and they can neither send nor receive handguns via USPS.

Yikes and gadzooks!

I stand corrected. Thanks for straightening me out, fellas.

soloban
January 2, 2013, 08:43 PM
The $30/3year licensing fee alone is worth the dealer discounts I get through MidwayUSA. :)

il.bill
January 2, 2013, 08:57 PM
Big No-No, that. Perhaps you are confusing USPS with UPS handgun deliveries? ... I immediately went inside a searched for a USPS Regs Change that would legalize such a shipment. No such thing.

Upon further reflection that must indeed have been my confusion.

Thanks again.

wally
January 2, 2013, 09:05 PM
Even if I never buy another C&R firearm its worth it for the dealer discounts from Midway and Brownells alone!

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