.223/5.56 overpenetration and HD


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holdencm9
January 3, 2013, 12:09 AM
Can someone verify for me that .223 penetrates less than your typical 9mm or buckshot through walls. Or point me to some studies. I recall hearing this and seeing pretty convincing evidence. I think something about the 55gr round being "tail-heavy" causing it to tumble.

The reason for the question is this article

http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2013/01/02/gun_control_ar_15_rifle_the_nra_claims_the_ar_15_rifle_is_for_hunting_and.html

I have commented and tried to bring some common sense to about a half dozen slate articles (if you can even call them that). The site basically turned into an anti-gun propaganda machine in the weeks after Newtown. It has dissipated, but this article popped up. I am tempted to comment, but will leave it to others who can speak more knowledgeably. Or at least wait for confirmation of what I am saying.

Aside from aforementioned penetration issue, I also take issue with his cherry-picking one comment that said using AR's encourages "spray and pray" style hunting.

And I take issue with him saying a "long gun" is difficult to maneuver in close quarters. Ever heard of a carbine?

Lastly I take issue with the way he cites "paranoid survivalists" as one of the primary demographics that buy AR's. Ugh.

Sadly, that is the most "neutral" gun article on the site in the past month.

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Robert
January 3, 2013, 12:34 AM
Check out The Box of Truth. They have done tons of penetration testing on all kinds or rounds.

Slipknot_Slim
January 3, 2013, 12:46 AM
You might be interested in this article.


http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/02/10/long-guns-short-yardage-is-223-the-best-home-defense-caliber/

black_powder_Rob
January 3, 2013, 12:54 AM
I would also second the boxOtruth

Kachok
January 3, 2013, 01:01 AM
US Army uses 9mm sub guns because they penetrate light barriers better then 5.56 carbines in urban assault situations. Ironically the 5.56 penetrates soft body armor better then the 9mm, welcome to the confusing world of terminal ballistics, I would explain all that to you but it would take all night just to get a good start and I have to be at work in the morning :(

Carne Frio
January 3, 2013, 01:11 AM
If you have a serious interest
in terminal ballistics, go here:
http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91

Slipknot_Slim
January 3, 2013, 05:34 AM
Thanks for the link. There's some good information there.

dirtengineer
January 3, 2013, 06:35 AM
US Army uses 9mm sub guns because they penetrate light barriers better then 5.56 carbines in urban assault situations. Ironically the 5.56 penetrates soft body armor better then the 9mm, welcome to the confusing world of terminal ballistics, I would explain all that to you but it would take all night just to get a good start and I have to be at work in the morning :(

What 9mm sub gun does the US Army use?

stubbicatt
January 3, 2013, 08:48 AM
Lord it seems we just did this one. Yet I tune in excitedly hoping to learn something we didn't cover.

Oh well, good question, good points all. :)

Kachok
January 3, 2013, 09:13 AM
United States SOCOM (Special Operations Command) uses the H&K MP5, as do the FBI and Secret Service.

Bartholomew Roberts
January 3, 2013, 09:19 AM
http://looserounds.com/2012/11/15/what-is-cover-in-your-home-and-will-it-stop-a-rifle-round-lets-find-out/

hentown
January 3, 2013, 09:42 AM
I own both shotguns and ARs. Prefer to use a G17 with light attached for my nightstand piece. Plan to add a suppressor as soon as I can get the Form 4 approved. Got a threaded barrel on order from LWD.

I just feel real comfortable with 18 rounds of modern hollow points inside my house.

MTMilitiaman
January 3, 2013, 10:57 AM
That particular issue has been beaten to death on these very gun boards enough that you can find volumes of discussion on it without ever leaving THR:

http://www.thehighroad.org/search.php?searchid=11014904

holdencm9
January 3, 2013, 11:21 AM
Yeah thanks guys! I knew I could probably find the info if I searched a little bit, but also specifically wanted those links that were shared, and also I wanted to share the link the article just so if there were any brave souls who wanted to venture over there and shed some light on the issue directly. I was going to comment but my computer did not like the "authentication certificate" of that website, so I let it be. Fortunately there were a handful of gun owners who did their best to correct the ignorance of the article. Thanks again!

Eleanor416Rigby
January 3, 2013, 11:41 AM
Penetration depends very heavily on bullet construction. Both 9mm and .223/5.56 loaded with anything but bullets designed not to penetrate will fly through sheetrock walls with enough force to do serious bodily injury on the other side. I haven't tried buckshot or read about it, but I suspect it would as well. Frangibles or bird shot would be my answer to overpenetration.

RockyMtnTactical
January 3, 2013, 11:53 AM
M193 bullet designs and many others (although not all) will fragment in soft tissue, so if you hit your target, it should penetrate less than many handgun and 00 Buck loads.

benEzra
January 3, 2013, 12:03 PM
55gr SP penetrates less than 00 buckshot and handgun JHP:

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

Lots of links here as well:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=566923

holdencm9
January 3, 2013, 12:51 PM
Thanks again. Here is what I posted. I already know that I won't dissuade anybody firmly on the other side of the fence, but hopefully there are some fence-sitters that I can enlighten.

It's funny to me that these articles and comments always sound the same.

"Sure, you could use the AR platform for X, Y, Z, but it is not ideal. There are better things out there. Therefore it is unnecessary."

Well of course there are better options! There always is. The nice thing about the AR is not that it is the BEST at any ONE thing, but the fact that it is very very good at a LOT of different things. He even points this out in the article.

Also, almost any 55gr .223/5.56 bullet will penetrate LESS through interior partition walls than 9mm JHP or 12-ga buckshot, and a 16" carbine is shorter than most shotguns, making it easier than shotguns to maneuver indoors, but also easier than handguns to aim effectively.

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

I don't really see anything that can be argued there, but there certainly will be someone who has to chime in. Now the key is to leave and never look again, and avoid getting sucked into an emotionally-driven, un-winnable debate.

Sandshooter
January 3, 2013, 01:11 PM
What 9mm sub gun does the US Army use?
No sub guns...Sub-sonic ammo is never used in an M-9, because there isn't enough pressure to cycle the system to chamber the next round. Suppressors are only used on side arms if the mission calls for it (VERY RARE). Spec Op's uses suppressed and unsuppressed MP-5's, but full loads to allow the weapon to cycle properly in full auto, 3 round or semi auto modes. You can bet there are are new platforms out there, but a long way from being seen!

ironworkerwill
January 3, 2013, 01:38 PM
bullet construction, diameter, weight and velocity all play a factor in penetration. a barnes bullet in a 5.56 will go deeper than a soft point and a soft point deeper than a bullet composed of compressed powdered tin in a light jacket and ect. similar construction and weight being a value the smaller diameter projectile will penetrate deeper. then all things being equal hyper velocity bullets self destruct faster than lower velocity bullets. see laws of hydrodynamics( or aerodynamics for that matter) the faster an object travels though a liquid the more resistance said object will meet.

Skribs
January 3, 2013, 01:54 PM
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#OVERPENETRATION

If you'll notice, JHP pistol ammo clogs up and fails to expand, thus penetrating further.. Buckshot still does what it does.

Rifle ammo will still yaw, but it needs the velocity to cause stretch cavitation and to reliably fragment. So you still have the yaw slowing it down, but the overall wound tract will be significantly reduced.

Either way, any weapon that has enough penetration on soft tissue will penetrate through several walls.

JustinJ
January 3, 2013, 02:00 PM
No sub guns...Sub-sonic ammo is never used in an M-9, because there isn't enough pressure to cycle the system to chamber the next round. Suppressors are only used on side arms if the mission calls for it (VERY RARE). Spec Op's uses suppressed and unsuppressed MP-5's, but full loads to allow the weapon to cycle properly in full auto, 3 round or semi auto modes. You can bet there are are new platforms out there, but a long way from being seen!

147 grain operates at normal pressures at subsonic velocities. As I understand it this is the preferred ammo for suppressed MP5's and i would guess pistols as well.

benEzra
January 3, 2013, 02:06 PM
Either way, any weapon that has enough penetration on soft tissue will penetrate through several walls.
True, but .223 JHP/SP typically penetrates fewer of them than 00 buckshot or 9mm/.40/.45 JHP does, and is probably less likely to exit an interior wall as well. And the lethality after penetrating even a single wall is less than that of a 9mm/.40/.45 JHP or 00 buckshot; see Roberts G.K., "Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Weapons: the Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Carbines Compared with 12 ga. Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant, Police Marksman, Jul/Aug 1998, pp. 38-45.

Roberts even discounts a lot of lighter .223 JHP and SP loadings as not offering *enough* penetration for routine law enforcement use, although I think that in general, the ideal for home defense is a bit less penetration than might be required for LE use.

sixgunner455
January 3, 2013, 02:15 PM
No sub guns...Sub-sonic ammo is never used in an M-9, because there isn't enough pressure to cycle the system to chamber the next round. Suppressors are only used on side arms if the mission calls for it (VERY RARE). Spec Op's uses suppressed and unsuppressed MP-5's, but full loads to allow the weapon to cycle properly in full auto, 3 round or semi auto modes. You can bet there are are new platforms out there, but a long way from being seen!


Let's define some terms: A sub-gun is a sub-machinegun, which is an automatic weapon, usually shoulder-fired, which is chambered for a pistol cartridge, such as the 9mm Parabellum. A machine gun is an automatic weapon chambered for a rifle cartridge, such as an M60. Sub-gun does not refer to subsonic ammunition in any way, though some of them are designed for its use, such as the internally suppressed MP-5. All of the MP-5 series are sub-guns. An M9 is a pistol, and has nothing to do with this. And subsonic ammunition will run through one very, very well.

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