[BarnsBeware]

Hey folks, I'm still relatively new here, but I've got a question, and I know there is no better place to ask. How can I get a personal transfer here in Kalifornia from a dear friend in Tennessee? Sounds easy enough, but I've hit snags... (Post originally buried in Legal and Political)

Here's the situation:

He bought a S&W 640 5-shot Centennial way back when from a friend and paid cash for it. He'd like to gift it to me, however, in PRK I am told you can only gift to immediate family or a spouse. I checked with my FFL, and they said that they can't do a private party transfer from someone out of state INTO Kali for various reasons, (which I admittedly forget at the present). Sounds iffy, but these guys are usually on the ball...

Is there any way I can get this nice and legal like? I'm 24, so there's no way I could say that I "bought it before registration" (must be 21 to buy handguns in PRK). I'd like this as a back-up gun for CCW someday (and IDPA today :D), so God-forbid the SHTF - I want it to be on the up-and-up, being that I'm a law-abiding citizen. :o

My FFL and I came up with an idea, but its sounds kinda like a stretch, especially in that niether of us were familiar with TN and NM laws:

My girlfriend lives in New Mexico, and the owner is her uncle. She has a house there, but she also has residency in Kali. Can her uncle gift it to her, (either through FFL mail TN to NM, or on an in-person RV trip to NM) and then when she visits me in Kali, she private party transfers it to me? I realize this means that she would temporarily own what is supposed to be mine, but honestly and for other reasons, if she "just couldn't part with her her uncle's gun that also was her gran-pappy's", I'm okay with that. She doesn't own presently.

Would this work? Is there a way I could do it directly from him to me? All private party transfers that do not involve immediate family in CA are required to be done through an FFL... :rolleyes:

Thanks!

[45 ACP]

First off, I'm not an FFL. Now:

I don't understand why your FFL is telling you that a PPT from TN into CA isn't possible. The 640 is on the "Drop Safety Test" list, thereby being approved for sale or xfer into California. Maybe I'm missing something here.

Keep in mind that if you perform the transfer through an FFL, then you'll have to have the Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC).

The gifting issue is correct, gifting handguns between spouses is allowed but the transfer still technically has to be recorded as an Operation of Law.

As for your other scenario, since the woman in question is not your wife it does not qualify as a spousal transaction which would only require the Operation of Law form. To be right with the law, both of you must perform the transaction at a CA FFL in person. It will take 10 days, an HSC on your part (since it's a handgun), and $25 to $30.

AFAIK, the above is all correct. Again, I'm not an FFL so all my statements are just based on personal knowledge, nothing else.

You should refer to the CA A.G. website for more information:

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/index.html

You can always call their office too, the girls that work the phones there are quite helpful and very good at returning phone calls.

[45 ACP]

For PPT, the law states that a CA dealer may not charge more than $30 for the first firearm and either $26 for each additional handgun or $10 for each additional long-gun. After subracting the state-mandated fees, the dealer is making approximately $10 per firearm for his/her trouble.

I state this because I had a problem in the past conducting just such a transaction. The dealer wanted $100 for a PPT of a handgun. After quoting chapter and verse from state law, I was promptly told to leave the store.

[BarnsBeware]

45-

Ahh, I neglected to mention that she has residency in both CA and NM. My bad.

To everyone - THANK YOU!!! It was burning me up inside trying to figure out all of this. I'll talk with my FFL again, and see. I'm a loyal customer because they are usually very reliable. I'll bring all this up and see if we can do it. (They actually WANTED to do it, but thought they couldn't most likely because of bad information on my side).

Thanks again all.
-BB

[45 ACP]

BB-

*edited to correct information*

Actually, you did mention that she has residency in NM and CA and that will be necessary to conduct the PPT. Otherwise it would have to be conducted from FFL (TN or NM) to FFL (CA) and subject to the pertinent laws in BOTH states.

Anyhow, good luck on the transfer...

[BarnsBeware]

I noticed that the Centennial is a plain 38 Spl "640" whereas the 357 variant is "640-x". Is the Centennial on the list? I'm not seeing a straight 38 spl. "640", just the 640-1, 640-3... Is this an issue?

-BB

[Black_Talon]

I noticed that the Centennial is a plain 38 Spl "640" whereas the 357 variant is "640-x". Is the Centennial on the list? I'm not seeing a straight 38 spl. "640", just the 640-1, 640-3... Is this an issue?

Yes, unfortunately that is an issue. The version that's legal to sell in Kali is only the exact model that's on the DOJ list. If the gun on the list is a model 640-3, that's the only one you can buy here. A model 640-2 or 640-4 is not legal here because, to the DOJ, it's a different model and therfore would need to go through the entire "safety" testing process in order to be certified for sale in the PRK. Wunnerful, inn't?

[jojosdad]

My info from my gunsmith (who has a FFL) is that private party transfers w/in Kali have to be face to face. If your gf has residence here then that problem would be solved.

[BarnsBeware]

:fire: grrr...

So, assuming that I can't FFL from TN to CA, because this particular firearm is not on the DOJ list, can I do a PPT with my girlfriend if she comes into CA with it, (assuming she took possession in NM from her uncle)?

Basically, if she gets it, can she PPT it to me here in Kali, or is it hers forever until I move out of the state?

-BB

[gbran]

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/pubfaqs.htm

[SoCalGeek]

If she comes in to CA with it, there's a form she has to file with the DOJ within either 10 or 14 days. I am pretty sure she can then legally PPT it to you.

[EOD Guy]

For PPT, the law states that a CA dealer may not charge more than $30 for the first firearm and either $26 for each additional handgun or $10 for each additional long-gun. After subracting the state-mandated fees, the dealer is making approximately $10 per firearm for his/her trouble.

I state this because I had a problem in the past conducting just such a transaction. The dealer wanted $100 for a PPT of a handgun. After quoting chapter and verse from state law, I was promptly told to leave the store.

The dealer was well within his rights. The regulation you are talking about only covers private party transfers where both parties are present at the dealer. A dealer may charge anything the traffic will bare (or more) on a transfer from out of state.

If you were trying to conduct a transfer with another party at the dealer, you have a valid complaint against the dealer with DOJ. DOJ has warned California dealers about charging more than the law allows.

[BarnsBeware]

:D Okay, just cleared plan B with my dealer, who does it for $30 for in-person, (sorry to hear you may have a greedy dealer 45, mine follow the whole "if-we're-nice-to-them-they'll-come-back-with-friends-and-$$$" line of thought).

So... now is the question, can my girl take possession in NM? Her uncle should be RV-ing through her town soon, but if not, he can do the FFL interstate thing. Anyone know anything about NM and TN laws? This red-tape stuff (Thanks DiFi) is aggravating, and clearly not meant for the people to understand and practice... :uhoh:

Anyone know/recommend a dealer in Roswell that wants loyal business from my soon-to-be shooting girlfriend?

[BarnsBeware]

SoCalGeek-

Talked to the dealer, and he said that if she was coming into the state to "dispose" of it (through sale, trade, whatever), that she did not have to fill out that form. Only if she was re-entering the state with the gun to live here, would she have to do extra paperwork besides the DROS stuff.

Apparently, its a 60 day thing. "Sell it or get it out", I imagine...

[461]

Uh-oh, Red Flag, Red Flag;


A: If the revolver is on the DOJ list you are golden and can have the weapon shipped to a california dealer as long as they accept it. So first off you need to find out what weapon you are dealing with. If it's california legal and your dealer doesn't want to do it, find another dealer.

B: If you do this through your girlfriends- uncle's- cousin's- sister's ,Brother-in -law you've just shown intent to circumvent the law and should strongly reconsider your plan. If your girlfriend brings in an unapproved handgun with the intent to sell it, she has just committed a crime. Either way, this is an extremely slippery slope and you should definitely rethink it.

Now that you've just posted these questions and had them answered on a public board that is routinely monitored by law enforcement, I can't see this being worth persuing for a $300.00 gun that you could just go down the street and purchase a close copy of. Just a thought. Please be careful.

[FredieUSA]

Next time you are around the gun, lock it in a box (unloaded). Have the bag checked in and tell the person checking in the bag that there is a firearm inside. They might request to inspect it. SouthWest puts a tag that says firearm Thats all . Claim your bag and bring it home.

Go to DMV or here and fill out this form.
http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/ab991.htm
As the instructions read .. you have 60 days.

You may not do this if your firearm is on the prohibited list .. Threaded barrel, mag well forward of the grip ect. You should have no problem. BTW handguns that are not on the approved list are also OK as you are not buying it! It IS YOURS and you have merely moved states.;)

Keep it simple and you will not have any issues.

[BarnsBeware]

461-

Thats EXACTLY what I thought going into all this, which is why I want every step of the way on the ABSOLUTE up-and-up. :)

Aside from the above, here's what I'm 100% positive on, (from dealer, but cross-referenced with the official DOJ guidelines in the website above):

When dealing with an in-state PPT between two CA residents, both standing there live at the counter, the DOJ list of approved firearms for sale does not apply. Instead, you are covered by the much more broad gun-specific ban list, on which the 640 is not listed.

IF I were getting this done FFL across the state, then I'd still only be held to the broader specific ban, and not the "guns approved for sale" list as it is still a PPT between two CA residents.

However, doing business across the country (mail-through-FFLs) involves importing a gun into the state for sale, and this needs to be done with BOTH lists. The way I circumvent the problem, (but NOT the LAWS), is to have him give it to my girlfriend in NM in the manner appropriate with TN and NM laws, and some day, when she moves back to CA, she sell it to me PPT right away, or have her declare it with that form SCG mentioned and have her transfer it to me PPT when my birthday comes around.

< Super-Idealist-Justice powers... .activate! >
As far as the LEOs watching this post - Let 'em. Its their job, and if they watch REALLY hard, they'll find that it will be registered to me, and acquired 100% legally - which is my first and highest priority.

I want this Centennial. Its gorgeous, and I would hate to refuse my friend's offer. Its an heirloom and means more to me than "just a .38". However, I am willing to do what it takes to own it in accordance with the laws of my country and state. Thanks for the heads up, though. Since this is tedious, I definitely need to be careful!:)

And Fredie-
Thanks! I'll look into that one too! I'm new to all this, so I just gotta be sure and extra extra careful. I just wish it wasn't so hard for good guys to be given heirlooms under 50 years old...

[BarnsBeware]

Fredie-

Looks like that's more along the lines of that form SCG was talking about. I'm already a resident, so it might be misconstrued as the shadyness that 461 was warning about. However, it seems the chick could certainly use that form when she moves back!

[BarnsBeware]

So far it seems that if I act well within the law, the worst case scenario is that it won't be mine, but the chick would have an excuse to shoot IDPA. :P That seems like a good thing. She's actually quite good when I talk her into poking holes in paper for an afternoon.

[ysr_racer]

There is no such thing as a "true private party tranfers" in CA. EVERYTHING must go thru an FFL.

The only thing a PPT gets you in CA is you can buy a handgun that's not on the list IF somebody in the state already owns it. Bringing it from out of state and claiming it's a PPT won't do.

[BarnsBeware]

ysr-

So you're saying that she would have to declare it with that form for declaring an owner bringing a gun into Cali, and wait for it to go through before PPTing it to me?

[ysr_racer]

I'm not sure she can even bring it in if it's not on the list. I think you're spending way more time and energy then it's worth.

[Pendragon]

CA FFLs are not allowed to refuse to do PPT transfers when both parties are present and they have to do it for the set amount.

I always wanted to go do one at Wal-Mart just to mess with them - but then they done messed with they-self without my help :P

I believe that a non CA resident can transfer a handgun to a CA resident if it is done in person in CA.

Right now, I have about a 50% chance of moving back to CA in the next year or so - if I do, I am definately bringing some good stuff back with me.

Frankly though - for a rather mundane Smith and Wesson (though I do like them), this situation is just not worth the hassle.

What is so special about this gun? Are you getting it for free? Does it have special sentimental value?

Its not like an Ed Brown Kobra or a Mateba or even a lowly P3-AT - you can get a functionally identical gun in CA.

If you are going to go through all these machinations, at least do it for something you cant get in CA - the ATI LS-9 is a slick little 9mm ultra thin 1911 - thats on my "bring back list".

Why go through the hassle and take the risk? There is a risk because the law is so convoluted and unclear that even extremely knowledgeable people and even the CA DOJ will disagree on what you can and cannot do.

[BluesBear]

I want this Centennial. Its gorgeous, and I would hate to refuse my friend's offer. Its an heirloom and means more to me than "just a .38". However, I am willing to do what it takes to own it in accordance with the laws of my country and state.

Sounds like good enough reasons for me.

Why are so many trying to discourage him in this thread when so many are preaching in other threads that the good people of California should be able to buy whatever they wish?

If you're not going to be helpful to him why not just shut the... er um, I mean, save the bandwidth.

[ysr_racer]

Snip:
I believe that a non CA resident can transfer a handgun to a CA resident if it is done in person in CA.
Snip:

I don't think that's correct.

[BarnsBeware]

Pendragon-

Are you getting it for free? Does it have special sentimental value?

-Yes and Very Yes. Its a "gift", but we have to go through all this stuff. If I were just trying to acquire a .38, I'd go for a copy available here in my state. This is one of those "not any gun, but this gun" cases. And, its something I'm willing to wait for, should that be the ultimate option. I just want to see if there is a way that I can get it fair, square, and sans skullduggery.

ysr-

Snip:
I believe that a non CA resident can transfer a handgun to a CA resident if it is done in person in CA.
Snip:

I don't think that's correct.

-You are right. In PRK BOTH parties must have California ID when doing it in person, hence the dilemma.

Blues-
-Thanks!

See, the thing is, I don't want this to be my fight of fights with the DOJ. I've got better things to do with my time when trying to upset DiFi, (like calling my/other people's representatives, writing letters, and donating to the good guys). Thats why I'm posting here. Its a special case scenario, not my trite attempt at getting back at the man. I'd like to do it, assuming everything is right in the eyes of the law.

...edited to fix HTML...

[461]

If you marry the girl, California being a "Community Property" state then the Centennial would be half yours by default. :D

In seriousness, I sympathize with you completely and regularly go through these hassles as well. California is a very bad place to be right now for firearms enthusiasts and it's ridiculous situations like this that show how unfair and ineffective the laws are. Honest people are the ones putting up with the laws not criminals, if you didn't care about the laws you'd just have your buddy FedEx it to you as machine parts and be done with it.

Bill Jones is most likely the candidate running against Barbara Boxer this year, that's step one. Step two is when Fienstein is up for reelection, we can win but we need to do a lot of work to take our state back.

[BarnsBeware]

461-

I have only recently stepped up to the challenge. For a long time I assumed that CA was a lost cause, but then I saw the CCW fight winning across the nation and started thinking "maybe it can happen here too. Maybe we can win here too." I was used to the idea Boxer and Feinstien ruling until their dying days, and that I would have to move out, but this is MY state too dammit. Where can I find more about Bill Jones and dethroning the demonic duo? I'm still playing catch-up.

[Mute]

Your girlfriend can indeed bring her legally owned gun into Kali. Only banned items (AWB, hi-cap magazines) are verboten. As to whether she has to register her gun before selling it to you, you'd have to contact DOJ, though I doubt you can get a straight answer from them either.

[Pendragon]

P2P transfers from a non CA resident have been done.

If you ask CA DOJ, you will not get a consistent answer.

There was some talk here ot at TFL about transfering non approved guns from out of state - someone had done so and was told it was ok, another had asked DOJ and been told to not dare it.

If you find a dealer willing to do it in person, I would just go for it.