Learning the superior paddle mag release-Walther/HK


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wild cat mccane
January 3, 2013, 04:02 PM
:)
After years of wanting a Walther P99 with a 5 inch barrel, Walther is releasing the PPQ (M2) in 5"!!! Except it is advertised with a button magazine release-no word on there being the tradition Walther paddle release version.

Soapbox rant with me for a moment. You flick your trigger finger down to release. Or you bring up your ring finger if you wish to be different. In a weird mood? use your thumb-though I am not sure why. Totally ambidextrous, really isn't possible to accidentally dump the mag unlike the push button, and you don't have to shift your hand/gun.

I am not saying the button release is antiquated or unusable, but the paddle is superior. Not for me. But period. Strong opinion, but at no point can one accidentally dump a magazine just griping a Walther or HK with a paddle release. I would also wager most don't have hands that work a push button without first shift one's grip on the grip.

Please, can everyone learn to use the paddle release correctly so this feature doesn't disappear?

Thanks :)

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ricebasher302
January 3, 2013, 10:11 PM
I hear you, but unfortunately the American shooter is used to a button, and most people are stubborn and don't like to change, even if it meant changing to something better. Obviously, Walther has been under a lot of pressure to make a button mag release. I'm afraid you're outnumbered.

C0untZer0
January 3, 2013, 10:14 PM
The HK P7M8 has the easiest fastest mag ejection setup of any handgun I've ever fired ever.

9mmepiphany
January 3, 2013, 11:19 PM
The HK P7M8 has the easiest fastest mag ejection setup of any handgun I've ever fired ever.
That has been my experience too. Too bad I hate the way the ears stick out so much

Atbat82
January 3, 2013, 11:51 PM
I love the Walther mag release! So much more intuitive than the button. Hopefully they offer two variants.


Sent from my iPhone

bigfatdave
January 4, 2013, 07:23 AM
I agree, the paddle is the superior design.
But it must fight the market momentum of the "pretty damn good" button release.

BILLG
January 4, 2013, 07:26 AM
I am not saying the button release is antiquated or unusable, but the paddle is superior. Not for me. But period. Strong opinion, but at no point can one accidentally dump a magazine just griping a Walther or HK with a paddle release. I would also wager most don't have hands that work a push button without first shift one's grip on the grip.

Thats why it is so popular with compitition shooters,law enforcement and military.My opinion is that its not superior just different.If it was so great every body would be screaming for one.

usp9
January 4, 2013, 09:25 AM
There are very, very few button releases I can reach without changing my grip. I can operate every paddle release I've used with no change in grip. That alone makes the paddle superior IMHO.

Ehtereon11B
January 4, 2013, 09:31 AM
I can operate the mag release on my Walther simply by using my middle finger on my shooting hand. Or my thumb on my support handing depending on how I am shooting. It is one of the reasons why I will never part with it. Push button releases usually require me to change my grip slightly to reach it with my thumb.

bigfatdave
January 4, 2013, 09:35 AM
The biggest features for me with the paddle is eliminating a snag point and a control that can be activated while in the holster

Add in lefty-friendly for our sinsister friends, and multiple ways to operate the control, and it becomes a true winner.
The reason it isn't popular with BILLG's groups is that there's over 100 years of button releases, they've become the "normal" way to do things. And button releases are pretty good. The paddle takes all that is good about the button, and adds in the advantages of a heel release (without requiring a second hand or complete grip change)

Dudemeister
January 4, 2013, 11:29 AM
I too love the paddle release of my P99, although I'm not really down on button releases. On my 1911, I usually use my support hand thumb to release the magazine, but on the P99, I use my shooting hand index.

On a related subject, which version of the P99 release do you guys like better, the newer, longer horns, or the original shorter ones?

wild cat mccane
January 4, 2013, 03:41 PM
Not a single disagree.

While I am sure some do, I think it goes to show people just haven't used the paddle mag release or tried it with their thumb.


I defiantly prefer the Walther long release. I loved my P99 QPQ 1st gen with the short, but the new longer version is easier.

Skribs
January 4, 2013, 03:50 PM
I have an airsoft pistol modelled after the P99 or PPQ. I can't reach the paddle release with my thumb, whereas the button release is accessable with my thumb. I find that the paddle release is just about as easy to hit with my finger as the button is from the off-side. For people with small hands, like myself I find the button to be superior to the paddle.

There is a reason I will never buy a walther or HK pistol.

Hangingrock
January 4, 2013, 03:58 PM
I remember Charles Petty’s write up for the SW99-45ACP. He alluded to the ambidextrous magazine release levers adjacent to the trigger guard accidently activating during firing. He had to change his hand position in order not to activate the magazine release levers during firing.

With my example of the SW99-45ACP I’ve had that problem on occasion also which required changing my firing grip thus repositioning the triggering finger. I’d rather have button magazine release and yes I’m left handed.

The AS trigger system I like along with the placements of the decocker button positioned on the slide.

gun addict
January 7, 2013, 12:28 PM
ive had enough USP and Walther P99/ppq to make my own judgement on the magazine release and my answer is "meh"

I mean, how often do you "accidently" release a magazine with a push button anyway? Also, if i have 6 other handguns that i shoot regularly and competitively, so muscle memory is of concern if i were to run a paddle release

In the end i really dont see a big difference and i dont give a + or - for the paddle/trigger guard release.

ps: Anything's better than the God awful Heel release on my P7 and Makarov

Franco2shoot
January 7, 2013, 12:40 PM
I love the Walther P99, and its mag release is superior to anything else I've had my hands on. The entire platform fits my hand like a old glove, and the mags cycle so easily it ought to make first place on Feinstein's list, not that she would know. Mine is in .40 but I would prefer .45 just for standardization of my ammo locker.

KKKKFL

Fishbed77
January 8, 2013, 11:26 AM
I mean, how often do you "accidently" release a magazine with a push button anyway?

All it takes is a little pressure on the side of a holstered gun. Not hard at all. In a self-defense situation, the results can be disasterous. For that reason alone, the Walther/HK style mag release is superior to the button design.

Add in the unintrusive ambidextrous nature of the design, and the ability for folks with any hand size/shape to operate the release without shifting grip (due to the ability to operate it with either the thumb, forefinger, or middle finger), and it is truly dissapointing that Walther has chosen to regress to the button design with the new PPQ.

Bovice
January 8, 2013, 12:08 PM
The paddle is awkward, and sweeping down your trigger finger would definitely make you change your grip. Then there's that feeling of "did I sweep it down far enough?" I never feel like it goes far enough and the mags don't seem to drop as well.

Buttons are good. You press it straight in.

85win
January 8, 2013, 12:22 PM
I am glad Walther is coming out with new stuff, but very disappointed in the discontinuation of the PPQ and the paddle release.

The PPQ is one of the best semi-autos out there especially considering value for money. I was just waiting and waiting for a 4.5" to 5.0" target model to come out and I was going to snatch one up instantly.

Now they have the PPQ M2 with a five inch barrel but no paddle release. The paddle release is what gave this gun it's fine distinction and was by far the best mag release on the market.

Now I have to try and convince myself whether I should compromise and buy the M2. I am not one to compromise and at this point, I don't think I'll bite.

Skribs
January 8, 2013, 12:59 PM
Even in pocket carry I've never had a magazine release accidentally with the push button. With a decent holster, it's hard to hit the button without purposeful pressure.

I don't think either method is superior. I know the paddle doesn't work well for me, and the button does. But I'm not going to sit here and say the button is superior because I like it better.

gun addict
January 8, 2013, 01:14 PM
practicing and drawing thousands of times at home/range ive never once accidently hit the magazine release button especially because i use a high thumb grip. If you're hitting the mag release drawing your pistol then its a training issue and you're doing something wrong

Fishbed77
January 8, 2013, 04:05 PM
practicing and drawing thousands of times at home/range ive never once accidently hit the magazine release button especially because i use a high thumb grip. If you're hitting the mag release drawing your pistol then its a training issue and you're doing something wrong

No one is talking about drawing or grip technique.

In the simple act of carrying a holstered pistol, it is possible to inadvertantly depress a button magazine release without ever knowing it (even with a quality holster) until the pistol is drawn and the mag falls out or the pistol fails to cycle after the first round.

This is impossible with a Walther/HK style mag release.

Skribs
January 8, 2013, 04:22 PM
With one exception, every holster I've had has put a thick layer of material (be it kydex, leather, or whatever synthetic fabric pocket holsters use) right next to the magazine release. Which means you would have to put pressure directly on the button in order to hit it. General pressure will be handled by the holster.

While it is "possible" to hit the mag release, I've never had it happen inadvertently. I'd say having a paddle holster so you don't accidently drop the mag would be like having a polymer gun so that lightning doesn't strike your steel-framed gun.

gun addict
January 8, 2013, 04:30 PM
lol that's a good analogy

wild cat mccane
January 8, 2013, 04:45 PM
I never said it happens all the time. People are making that claim themselves (a good example of a strawman-he said it, it never happens).

What I did say is it is impossible to accidentally do it on the paddle release.

I DID argue you don't have to change your grip to engage the paddle release unlike the button. No one has argued with me on that point.

gun addict
January 8, 2013, 04:52 PM
but it does, if you can reach the paddle release with your thumb then your thumb is big enough to use push button release witout moving your grip. Any other finger being used to push the trigger guard/paddle release and you will lose your grip, there's no if about it, i challenge you to grab your Walther and do a mag release with index/middle finger while your hand stays in the absolute same position

To me the 1/5000 or whatever chance of having the push button hit while its in the holster is a good enough chance for me to take.

Skribs
January 8, 2013, 05:16 PM
I DID argue you don't have to change your grip to engage the paddle release unlike the button. No one has argued with me on that point.

I have argued this. In order to use my trigger finger I have to twist one way, in order to use my middle finger I have to twist the other. My thumb cannot hit the paddle because my hands are too short.

For someone with small hands, the paddle is arguably worse because it's harder to reach.

2wheels
January 8, 2013, 05:16 PM
Meh... They never worked "as advertised" for me. It was awkward activating it with my trigger or middle finger, and if I used my thumb I'm shifting my grip just as much as I am with the button. Maybe because it's the way I've always done thing, but I'm not in the mood to change my habits this late in the game over some pretty minor advantages...

Ambidextrous? Ok, I'll sorta give you that though personally I could care less about ambi capability. Though to be fair to us button guys there are ambi buttons or at least reversible buttons on the market today, my old XD for example had an ambi mag release button.

Dumping the mag in holster? Never happened to me or anyone I know personally, and I consider it very unlikely overall especially with good gun/holster design. Usually it's something you'll notice within a short amount of time carrying the gun anyways and be able to fix.

Dumping the mag simply by gripping the gun? Come on...

Mot45acp
January 8, 2013, 06:10 PM
I like the paddle release. I own the PPQ & P30. I don't try to depress the paddle, but more try to push it down a little as far forward as my trigger finger reaches, then pull my finger back, acting as a fulcrum.

Skribs
January 8, 2013, 06:27 PM
Reversible isn't ambidextrous. It just lets you have left-handed guns if you want (and if other parts are right-hand only, it lets you have a lopsided gun).

That said, I find hitting the button with my finger is as easy as hitting the paddle. It's more of a motion for my finger, but easier to hit it.

Bobson
January 8, 2013, 06:34 PM
The paddle is awkward, and sweeping down your trigger finger would definitely make you change your grip. Then there's that feeling of "did I sweep it down far enough?" I never feel like it goes far enough and the mags don't seem to drop as well.

Buttons are good. You press it straight in.
I prefer a button too, but in a fairness, I don't own a Walther or HK. I've handled em and didn't like the paddle, so I looked for something different. Its definitely possible I would have learned to like the paddle more, but I have no problem with the button whatsoever. The paddle is the perfect fix for a problem I never had.

HKGuns
January 8, 2013, 07:03 PM
I am not saying the button release is antiquated or unusable

Then I will! Once you've used the HK or Walther style you hate going back to the stone age. I agree with your position and am glad "my" PPQ has a "real" magazine release!

meanmrmustard
January 8, 2013, 07:57 PM
I love the Walther mag release! So much more intuitive than the button. Hopefully they offer two variants.


Sent from my iPhone
+1.

Skribs
January 8, 2013, 08:00 PM
Once you've used the HK or Walther style you hate going back to the stone age.

Tried it. Went back to the rocks and sticks.

9mmepiphany
January 8, 2013, 08:17 PM
Then I will! Once you've used the HK or Walther style you hate going back to the stone age. I agree with your position and am glad "my" PPQ has a "real" magazine release!
Tried it on the H&K P7M8/13, USP, P2000, P30 and the Walther P99. Liked the P7M8/13 the best, but it kept poking me in the side.

I found the button release a bit faster, as it is part of the motion I used to rotate the magwell...so I can look the fresh magazine in

I've gone back to the button release too. Shifting the gun in my hand to hit the release feels very normal, but then I've been doing it since I was 18 (40 years)

bigfatdave
January 8, 2013, 09:47 PM
While it is "possible" to hit the mag release, I've never had it happen inadvertently.I have.
A minor fix to the holster prevented it happening again, but it is possible. Remember that carry holsters are often designed to minimize bulk, which means the button isn't protected by extra layers. In my case the holster was fine with stock grips, but would allow the botton to be depressed when I swapped to slim grips.

===

Another option for dropping the magazine is to use the off-hand, I experimented for a while with my PPS that way and in the end decided that strong hand middle finger was the best way for me.
For off-hand release, you'd pinch and pull the paddle when you loacked open, sweeping the empty out as your hand went down to the belt for a reload. The downside is that is isn't the same if you're reloading before going empty.
What works for me is to use the middle finger of the strong hand, with my thumb pushing on the other side of the gun. When I have a good grip on the reload mag in the left hand, a very slight shift in right hand position dumps the mag as I bring the gun in a bit for the fresh magazine. The advantage is twofold:
1- reloads are always the same, regardless of whether I'm dumping an empty magazine or a partially full magazine
2- I can (and do) use the exact same motion to reload button-release guns, because my thumb is mashed right where a button would be. (really high button releases like the CZ70 and Walther PP-series are the exception here, and obviously a heel release isn't conpatible with this method ... so I don't carry high-button or heel-release guns)

Fishbed77
January 9, 2013, 12:04 AM
i challenge you to grab your Walther and do a mag release with index/middle finger while your hand stays in the absolute same position

I can do it every time on my P99AS without shifting my grip at all.

However, to activate the button-style mag release on my Colt 1911 and Ruger Mark III, I have to shift my grip by turning the pistol slightly counter-clockwise in my hand. And I have relatively long fingers.

balance 740
January 9, 2013, 12:12 AM
I use my middle finger on all pistols with the paddle/lever style mag release.

I prefer it to a push button mag release because I find it faster.

wild cat mccane
January 9, 2013, 12:26 AM
Take you finger and stick it out like a gun. If you can move the pointer finger down...that is all it takes for the paddle release.

A button push always requires a change of the hand either in a counter clock wise turn or an extended reach of the thumb.


I was wrong. The button is inferior and is antiquated. I am glad someone else said it.

ugaarguy
January 9, 2013, 12:33 AM
You flick your trigger finger down to release. Or you bring up your ring finger if you wish to be different. In a weird mood? use your thumb-though I am not sure why. Totally ambidextrous, really isn't possible to accidentally dump the mag unlike the push button, and you don't have to shift your hand/gun.
You can use your trigger finger or strong hand middle finger with a reversed or ambi button release. The paddle is neat, but it's not all that when put in perspective.

Weevil
January 9, 2013, 01:02 AM
Well i'm sure there will always be those who see the genius of this innovative design, just as the engineers at Wather and HK did, fact is it just has not caught on with shooters.

As mentioned if it were all that everybody would be copying it and coming out with their version of it on their pistols.

Now Walther is going to a button release on the PPQ.


Some ideas catch on some don't, and it doesn't look promising for the future of paddle releases.

Never really cared for them myself, seemed like a kinda gee-whiz gimmick.

2wheels
January 9, 2013, 09:43 AM
Take you finger and stick it out like a gun. If you can move the pointer finger down...that is all it takes for the paddle release.

A button push always requires a change of the hand either in a counter clock wise turn or an extended reach of the thumb.


I was wrong. The button is inferior and is antiquated. I am glad someone else said it.

I'm glad the paddle release works so well for you (didn't for me, and I have tried it), but having some very minor arguable advantages over the button mag release does not make the button inferior or antiquated.

It's just a different way to run the gun.

CPshooter
January 9, 2013, 02:27 PM
I'm in the exact same boat. Disappointing for sure.

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 9, 2013, 04:20 PM
I've tried the paddle release as well and I don't like it at all. I have to shift my grip the same way I do when using a button release to use the paddle. I shift my grip when reloading because I tilt the whole gun to reload easier. Sure it's not ambidextrous but I'm both right handed and still don't have an issue releasing the magazine left handed.

If this release is superior, I don't see it at all.

hak
January 9, 2013, 05:10 PM
"The paddle is awkward, and sweeping down your trigger finger would definitely make you change your grip. Then there's that feeling of "did I sweep it down far enough?" I never feel like it goes far enough and the mags don't seem to drop as well."

i find the paddle the most comfortable and functional. counterpoint:

1) no grip change for me
2) no question of "did i hit it" my USP and P30s mags just plain shoot out the magwell, so check your springs
3) like a few others here, i use my strong/shooting hand middle finger (keeping my trigger finger out and away from the trigger). if you're having to shift your grip to use a paddle then you're using the 'same finger' as your button types, try a diff finger and train with it.
4) it's truly ambi and either hand (diff than ambi)

I have pushbuttons on my glocks and 1911s. I prefer paddles in my HKs to all. just a personal pref (and yes, i have ejected a g19 mag via pushbutton depression while wearing an mtac holster and driving, never a paddle, and never any type in a full kydex holster with either mag release method).

my 2 cents.

Skribs
January 9, 2013, 05:40 PM
Hak, 1 is subjective, which is why I say it's neither better nor worse.
3, you should keep your middle finger away from the trigger as well. Your trigger finger isn't the only finger capable of pulling the trigger.

balance 740
January 9, 2013, 05:45 PM
3, you should keep your middle finger away from the trigger as well. Your trigger finger isn't the only finger capable of pulling the trigger.

What if you're left handed, and you have a pistol with a push button mag release?

Skribs
January 9, 2013, 05:50 PM
What if you're left handed, and you have a pistol with a push button mag release?

Hit the button with your middle finger. If your hands are big, use your knuckle, if your hands are small curve your finger in. Either way, your middle finger is farther away from the trigger with a push-button than with a paddle. I find it easier to hit the button with my middle finger than it is to hit the paddle with finger or hit the button with thumb.

2wheels
January 9, 2013, 05:56 PM
What if you're left handed, and you have a pistol with a push button mag release?
Buy one that's ambi or reversible, or learn to do it with your trigger/middle finger as Skribs suggested.

Running a "right handed" gun isn't actually all that hard to do with your left hand.

balance 740
January 9, 2013, 06:07 PM
Right. :)

But I was trying to make a point with that statement.

For what it's worth, I don't think there is a universal, "better", mag release out of the two. Some will prefer one, and some will prefer the other.

I'm a lefty, so I'm used to using my middle finger on any pistol that doesn't have a heel mag release. I don't personally feel that the push button mag release is safer than the paddle/lever style release.

On a paddle/lever mag release, I normally index my trigger finger on the outside of the trigger guard, while moving my middle finger forward and down to release the mag. I find it faster and more comfortable than using the knuckle or the pad of my middle finger on a pistol with a push button mag release.

Jeff Cook
March 23, 2013, 04:01 PM
I have carried several guns both on and off duty starting with a .45 in the Air Force. I really dont think it makes a difference whether you have a button or a paddle...it is all about comfort and muscle memory. I have to admit the first few times I had my PPQ at the range, I hit the non-existent mag release button, but after a bit of practice it became like second nature. Again, I agree that comfort and farmiliarity is king, but give each a chance before making broad pronouncements!

Prince Yamato
March 23, 2013, 04:35 PM
I don't own Walthers or HKs, but the mag release on their guns is one of my favorite things about their guns.

Sam1911
March 23, 2013, 04:40 PM
Slower isn't always better.

ku4hx
March 23, 2013, 04:45 PM
I crack open my boiled eggs at the small end ...

HKGuns
March 23, 2013, 06:36 PM
Just get a p30, HK isn't changing their mag release, or hunt down an original PPQ. Yes the paddle releases are superior to buttons.

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