Why is there an ammo shortage?


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radiotom
January 4, 2013, 04:35 PM
Everywhere I look there is low stock of ammo and higher prices. I know that a lot of people anticipate a ban on AR and AK type guns and high capacity magazines etc, but why would that make people buy and hoard ammo? Won't it be just as available post-ban?

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XD 45acp
January 4, 2013, 04:38 PM
Because another thing the Gov't can do is Tax ammo. If you have it, yer good.

browningguy
January 4, 2013, 04:41 PM
Why is there an ammo shortage?

Because everyone is buying all they can?

Coop45
January 4, 2013, 05:10 PM
I'm just guessing here, but maybe it's a distrust of the government.

hso
January 4, 2013, 05:17 PM
Because panic robs thinking men of reason and makes non thinking people mad.

oneounceload
January 4, 2013, 05:20 PM
Many are afraid that the government will simply outlaw the use of any cartridge that the military uses, which would make all those ARs and 9mm pistols expensive boat anchors

Coyote3855
January 4, 2013, 07:10 PM
I can't even buy .22 LR locally. And most of the internet is out of the good stuff.

beatledog7
January 4, 2013, 07:11 PM
Not a shortage--it's just held in different hands.

Grassman
January 4, 2013, 07:12 PM
I'm having a hard time finding small rifle primers. I'm good on all else.

Trent
January 4, 2013, 07:15 PM
I don't have an ammo shortage. I have enough ammo to shoot 500 rounds a month for well over 10 years without running out or having to reload. I have enough reloading materials to shoot that same volume for another 10 years. :)

JustinJ
January 4, 2013, 07:24 PM
Many are afraid that the government will simply outlaw the use of any cartridge that the military uses, which would make all those ARs and 9mm pistols expensive boat anchors

I can almost for a second kind of start to see a tiny grain of plausibility to somebody proposing that 5.56 ammo be banned but the 9mm and .308? No way.

gspn
January 4, 2013, 07:28 PM
Same reason my gas station runs out of fuel when a snow storm is coming.

You can't drive anywhere when snow has shut everything down...but people run and get all the gas they can.

Don't expect panic to make much sense.

browningguy
January 4, 2013, 08:21 PM
enough ammo to shoot 500 rounds a month for well over 10 years

60,000 rounds is quite a bit.

RevDerb
January 4, 2013, 08:23 PM
There is no ammo shortage. There are just greedy hoarders who will grab all that they can just like 4 years ago and then graciously offer to sell it to their buds at inflated prices. I resolved that it wouldn't happen to me again and invested in Dillon equipment and components.

JBrady555
January 4, 2013, 08:41 PM
I haven't tried to buy ammo for about a week now and I honestly expected for things to gradually start to slow down like it did after the election but as of now the panic is still in full effect. My walmart had nothing and they have now implemented a 6 boxes per customer rule to try to evenly distribute the ammo.

alsaqr
January 4, 2013, 08:48 PM
Don't expect panic to make much sense.

Bingo!!!

Folks have bought into tall tales being spread by gunstore owners, dubious "news organizations", online retailers and gun rights organizations. Its a TEOTWAWKI thing. :D

OilyPablo
January 4, 2013, 09:03 PM
I agree with all of the above about panic, but I will also add that it's circular....all the panic has gun sales at all time highs and people will want ammo for those guns....and so on....

Queen_of_Thunder
January 4, 2013, 09:24 PM
Just out of curiosity what did you folks expect to happen when the President made his remarks after the Connecticut shooting and the non stop media coverage? Did you expect people to just ignore it?

Now people are upset with dealers with higher prices and yes in some instances you may be justified but before you start complaining check and see what it cost them to provide that product to you in an environment where even 22lr has disappeared from the shelves. If you didn't understand the significance of Brownell's statement that over the course of a few days they sold as many magazines as they had in the past 3 1/2 years then you never will.

No brass, no bullets, no ammo, no magazines, no primers, no guns just bare shelves at the wholesale and local gun shop level and people expect prices to remain stable.

Hangontight
January 4, 2013, 10:09 PM
I've found it depends where you go. There are about 15 walmarts close to me and some have plenty, some don't. They are not raising their prices though....wish I could say the same for the LGS

Carpedium
January 4, 2013, 10:24 PM
My Walmart is stocked at normal prices.

Carpedium
January 4, 2013, 10:25 PM
Now if I could just replenish my stock of small pistol primers...

FiremanJim
January 4, 2013, 10:30 PM
Went to Academy on a whim today. The shelves were emptying as fast as the kids could stock them. I walked out with 10 boxes of 9mm that I cant find anywhere without being gouged. I only found one box of 5.56 and it was tracer rounds. Fortunately, they were selling at the pre-freak out rate. I usually dont buy this much ammo, but I dont know when I'll be able to get some again.

There may not really be a shortage, just psycho demand and sometimes you gotta just grab as much as you can when you can.

Jaxondog
January 4, 2013, 10:38 PM
I wish i had 15 Walmart's close by :rolleyes:

Archangel14
January 4, 2013, 10:41 PM
Man, people are just acting insane right now. I know a guy that has FIVE tricked out AR's, and he's all worried about his inability to get another AR! How many guns can one guy shoot at a time?! I'm not advocating that we shouldn't have a back up gun or two, but it's just plum crazy!

Same with the ammo. Same guy I know must have 100,000 rounds of AR ammo. And he spends half his days surfing the web and calling around to get more! That's why average Joes with a job are having a hard time picking up dwindling supplies.

OilyPablo
January 4, 2013, 10:42 PM
My Walmart is a LONG drive and they never have much any ammo left. I mean ravaged!

Zardaia
January 4, 2013, 10:44 PM
Common calibers for potentialy soon to be banned ar/ak etc i can understand the run but .22, ***? That's probably one of the last calibers that'd be targeted. Unless people actualy believe teotwawki is comming and they're gonna have to hunt squirel for a living, why the sudden rush?

FiremanJim
January 4, 2013, 11:30 PM
One of the guys at work said he has 15,000 rounds in his house and wont sell to anyone.
Not even a few rounds.

SSN Vet
January 5, 2013, 12:01 AM
Common calibers for potentialy soon to be banned ar/ak etc i can understand the run but .22, ***? That's probably one of the last calibers that'd be targeted. Unless people actualy believe teotwawki is comming and they're gonna have to hunt squirel for a living, why the sudden rush?

Just a guess, but perhaps the .22LR rush is the teenyboppers contribution to the panic.

Got to feed those tactical 10-22s ya know

jfrey
January 5, 2013, 12:01 AM
In his business travel this week my son stopped at 5 gun stores to see if he could find any ammo or loading supplies. In 5 stores he found a total of 4 boxes of 9mm ammo. He did find one out of the way shop that had primers so he got me some. This is crazy. What are these people going to do with all this ammo. Luckily it will last for 20 years or so and not go bad. The local Academy has been out for over a week and not sure when they are going to get any in. Walmart here is the same way.

Ignition Override
January 5, 2013, 01:16 AM
Three days ago there was plenty of "military type" ammo at the normal price:
.75/rd. of Prvi Partizan .303 "British".

People who actually Had the cash for .223, 5.45x39, 7.62x39 etc in October etc should have bought it before the November election.
Of course many had none available, but those with the cash who are now high and dry, then should have realized that we would always be one mass tragedy from a major panic.

Those people who delayed buying anything Did Know about the Tucson Arizona, Aurora CO, then Portland tragedies (publicized everywhere), didn't they?

Davek1977
January 5, 2013, 05:51 AM
One of the guys at work said he has 15,000 rounds in his house and wont sell to anyone.
Not even a few rounds. Why should he? He saw this coming, and prepared accordingly. He bought what he wanted, or needed, without taking into account supplying his neighbors etc...because, well, why SHOULD he have planned on supplying anyone else?!?! I have a lot of ammo on hand too, and I'm not eager to get rid of any of it either. Its not getting any cheaper, any easier to find, and will last at least the rest of my lifetime if stored decently. The way I see it, having 14999 rounds isn't as good as having 15k, especially when current prices are about triple compared to what I paid.

Silverado6x6
January 5, 2013, 08:11 AM
About those that have a very large amount of ammo, doesn't bother me one bit if they have more or less than me.

Because the Constitutional Civil war is about to erupt and there will be plenty of opportunities to get better weapons and ammo.

Its not a stockpile issue, its the issue we are by definition of the 2nd Amendment are to be armed equally as well as the military.

So whatever Walmart sells is FAR below what the military uses. My rant of the day.

22-rimfire
January 5, 2013, 08:30 AM
I walked out with 10 boxes of 9mm that I cant find anywhere without being gouged. I only found one box of 5.56 and it was tracer rounds. Fortunately, they were selling at the pre-freak out rate. I usually dont buy this much ammo, but I dont know when I'll be able to get some again.

Why... here is why.

Many people are afraid right now; availability, ownership, freedom, taxes, and just being able to go shooting when they want to. That is why I read that there were 2.8 million NICs checks in December. As mentioned above, the ammunition has not gone anywhere, just changed to the user's hands. I highly doubt it is being shot up at the rate it is being purchased.

raddiver
January 5, 2013, 10:02 AM
You know DHS just put in an order for 200,000 more rounds at the beginning of this year? This is on top of the 2-3 billion rounds that have already been contracted for last year by other government agencies.

LeonCarr
January 5, 2013, 10:14 AM
To go along with what Silverado6X6 is saying, if there comes a time when you REALLY need an AR and lots of ammo, there will probably be plenty of them laying around to be picked up.

I hope we never see that.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

22-rimfire
January 5, 2013, 10:40 AM
The time may come when having a significant stash of ammunition and firearms may be very important. But as people have seen in this most recent "scare"... the time to buy is not after the mad rush occurs and then whine about not being able to find this or that at Walmart.

TanklessPro
January 5, 2013, 12:36 PM
There is only a shortage for the unprepared. Sorry if that comes off like sounding like a jerk but it is the truth. I have been blasted for some comments I have made in the past about bans and ammo purchases. A lot were saying "buy only what you need", "your a hoarder" and so on.

22 has not been readily availiable in my area for months. The recent run has only caused calibers like 9mm, 40, 223, and 7.62x39 to become scarce. The big box stores are out of all the calibers I listed.

Got to go, headed to the range. :D

Batty67
January 5, 2013, 01:27 PM
Wal-Marts have very little handun ammuniton...except for 40 S&W. Consistently. That's getting low as well.

Fishslayer
January 5, 2013, 01:39 PM
60,000 rounds is quite a bit.

It's a good start...:evil:

I haven't tried to buy ammo for about a week now and I honestly expected for things to gradually start to slow down like it did after the election but as of now the panic is still in full effect.

The prices on my local WTS Ammo board have started to ease off. Still see the odd $1K/1K rounds but I don't think many are buying...

Was in my local Turners yesterday and there were two bricks of Remington GB .22LR and a few cases of Wolf black box x39 @ $7-ish/20.

No 5.56/.223 that I could see tho.

Trent
January 5, 2013, 03:38 PM
60,000 rounds is quite a bit.

It's a real pain in the butt to move around too. We used to haul about that much to every gun show we went to when I had my shop.

Keep in mind, I normally shoot a lot! I shot almost 10K rounds of 45ACP this year, alone.

Knocking myself back to 500 rounds a month would be a pretty substantial cut, considering my "normal volume" is x4 that. If I don't check my shooting habits and ammo doesn't become available again, it's a 2 1/2 year supply.

Also, this isn't 60K+ rounds in just a few calibers. I shoot a LOT of different calibers. Have firearms chambered in 26 different calibers, variety is the spice of life!

Drail
January 5, 2013, 03:46 PM
There has "almost" been an ammo shortage ever since we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. U.S. production factories have been running 24/7 for years now and they are not able to produce what the D.O.D. is asking for. We consumers are at the bottom of the list for ammo consumption and supply. We buy more small arms ammo than we make from other countries now and have been doing so since George W. was in the big house. Be glad you can get anything.

orionengnr
January 5, 2013, 03:48 PM
Guess you weren't around four years ago?

Drail
January 5, 2013, 03:51 PM
I was around but I was and still am pretty well stocked up and don't need any more. I hate to even think about having to move all of my stock. I moved it all in 96 and it took 3 trucks.

1858
January 5, 2013, 03:53 PM
The holiday shutdown for the majority of ammunition manufacturers hasn't helped availability either. Some might be astounded at how many rounds of ammunition are produced every day at these plants. Ammunition availability will start to improve over the next couple of months as many plants have been scaling up production over the past couple of years.

Ky Larry
January 5, 2013, 04:16 PM
This ammo panic occured at the worst possible time of year. We reelected the same political prostitue. Many manufacturers shut down for a week or two for the holidays.Many stores started reducing stock to avoid the yearend inventory tax.Three strikes and you're out. (Of ammo.)

bikerdoc
January 5, 2013, 04:24 PM
Tankless pro said,
There is only a shortage for the unprepared.

He is right.

No sympathy here. Enjoy you 1800 dollar Olympic AR's, $50.00 C product mags, $100.00 Pmags and $900.00/ case of 55grain PMC, you bought with the xmass money, or the rent money, or even worse, put it on plastic at 19%.
Next paycheck will be less with the new tax law, IRS is looming by April, and by then your AR will sell for $500, mags will be plentiful, and ammo prices will decline.

Being prepared means more than guns and ammo.

B!ngo
January 5, 2013, 04:29 PM
I have kept the number of cartridge types to a minimum (.22lr, 9mm, 5.56, 3.08) and have some single-digit thousand rounds total across all of them. At the rate I go out to the range, that will last me for quite some time, and well before I run low, the world will have changed many times and, in the case of ammo availability, likely for the better.
Yes, there may be higher taxes
There may be wind-down of specific cartridge-types if there is a ban on some gun designs
There may be long-term hoarding as there is now (though I doubt it - the attention span of most americans is far too short)
So just be patient. Unless you are absolutely dry or have some emergency need, 'this too shall pass'.
B

OilyPablo
January 5, 2013, 04:32 PM
I do feel bad for those who just couldn't stock up due to low funds by no fault of their own. I know a guy at work, single dad (wife passed), got in accident (car totaled) , he would shoot with us once a month or so. Now, no ammo.

I'm always stocking up when I see a deal. Been that way for awhile. Well stocked. Yes I discretely offered him some SD ammo. He will pay me back, that's just the kind of guy he is.

JohnBT
January 5, 2013, 08:16 PM
"What are these people going to do with all this ammo"

Shoot it? Anybody remember when Wolf Match Target was $15/brick and Wolf Match Extra was $18/brick and then after awhile it went up a couple of bucks? I bought multiple cases of both and I'm still shooting it. I should sell it all. What's a $1.50 box of Wolf worth these days at auction? :)

I retired October 1st and I've been acquiring ammo as deals presented themselves for at least 10 years. I still have some 28 ga. Win AA that I got on sale at Dick's for $3.49/box. When it's gone I start reloading.

I suppose the answer to the question is either shoot it, store it or resell it.

John

Ignition Override
January 5, 2013, 08:28 PM
No panicky price bubble lasts forever.
It will be a rude awakening when so many people realize that they paid double or more for unwanted guns and ammo.

DJW
January 5, 2013, 08:28 PM
Another reason .22 rimfire is pricey and scarce is that many shooters have switched to it as it is(or was)much more affordable than center fire rounds. In order to be able to afford to shoot and stay tuned up many have given up their .45 ACP, .40, and even 9mm in favor of the rimfire.
Having said that, I am amazed that the same $6 brick of .22 is now selling for upwards of $20 in 5 short years!

Queen_of_Thunder
January 5, 2013, 09:30 PM
I had to pay $28 today for 375 rounds of CCI 36 grain HP 22lr. Can you believe it? It's ridiculous under normal conditions but we are not faced with normal conditions. Today we are facing registration, bans and who knows what else. It's time to step up folks.

oneounceload
January 5, 2013, 11:22 PM
The last time I bought .22lr, it was $95.00 otd for a case of 6250 rounds for Remington. Looks like I should have bought another at the time

Rezin
January 7, 2013, 11:00 AM
Local Wal-Mart here is bone dry ... Dicks has some overpriced hd ammo, but not much. Gun shops have little on the shelves.

Cougar71
January 7, 2013, 01:29 PM
Absolutely!

Zeke/PA
January 7, 2013, 03:08 PM
My local FFL is a relatively small shop that sells Fish Bait, Dog Training Supplies and of course Guns.
My friend at the shop tells me that in the current crises he has sold an unheard of 35 AR's, all of the AK's, and SKS's therein.
Not a SPECK of .223 or 9MM ammo to be had.
15 to 20 calls/day looking for an AR.
Keep in mind that this is a SMALL shop catering MOSTLY to retirees and Farmers!

horsemen61
January 7, 2013, 05:04 PM
better to have it than to not have it and pay more later.

Ignition Override
January 7, 2013, 05:27 PM
Even when explaining this to a wife who is very intelligent and understanding, some of them must suspect that if we accumulate more than a few thousand rounds, we might later lose interest in either a specific gun or 'caliber'.

Lakeshore
January 7, 2013, 06:08 PM
I too am seeing the .22 rimfire shortage that others have commented on. My usual online ammo source is backordered for months and the neighborhood WalMart has been sold out since before Christmas.

GiorgioG
January 7, 2013, 06:35 PM
500 rounds of 5.56 fell off the back of the FedEx truck (in transit, not out-for-delivery) 8 days ago....2 hours drive from my home. And of course I can't get a replacement because the vendor (LuckyGunner) doesn't have any stock and doesn't plan to anytime soon. Anyone had similar experiences with FedEx? Is UPS any more reliable?

Trent
January 7, 2013, 08:12 PM
What, a shipping clerk somewhere who steals products clearly marked as to their contents? Unheard of, I tell you! :(

WinThePennant
January 7, 2013, 10:50 PM
The prices on ammo are ridiculous. 5.56 and 7.62x39 are not going away. Prices will normalize... eventually...

gspn
January 7, 2013, 10:59 PM
MHow many guns can one guy shoot at a time?! I'm not advocating that we shouldn't have a back up gun or two, but it's just plum crazy!


I used to joke that i had enough pistols to fully arm 4 Octopusses. I have more now...BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAAA!:D

Killian
January 7, 2013, 11:08 PM
Prices on ammo may normalize...at a new level. And ammunition companies may switch to producing other calibers. Like they went from producing large amounts of .32 and .25 caliber in the old days to .40 and .45 now. Society changed and so did people's perception of "a good caliber". If magazines are limited to 10 rounds, do you want 10 rounds of .223 or x39, or would you want 10 rounds of .308? If a ban happens and goes on awhile, everyday prices on less attractive calibers could double or triple. I'm thinking of .303 here.

heeler
January 7, 2013, 11:38 PM
Last week I was looking online at several of the different internet places I buy ammo and saw that basically no one really had much of anything in 9mm fmj.
And a lot of the other popular calibers were in the same shape of non availability.
So last week after work I head into Academy Sports armed with three Christmas $50 gift cards to buy myself a Shakespere Ugly Stik fishing rod and the model I was looking for was unavailable.
So I head over to the ammo aisle and sure enough there was zero 9mm,380,or 32 ACP left.
But then at the end of the aisle was a platform that had those little green plastic ammo boxes Blazer Brass sells in 350 rounds(7 boxes) for $99 stacked up.
So even though I did not like basically having to pay over $14 a box for Blazer Brass,well there it was.
I took two of them and paid with the gift card.
A nice find I thought.
However,after the great ammo drought of 2009-10,especially in 380 I have been steady buying and have now accumulated quite a bit and plan to keep buying as I use up certain set amounts of stock.
So as a few other ammo preppers having been saying in this thread and that is basically that after the 08 election YOU really should have had a clue which way the wind was blowing.
Sorry.

WinThePennant
January 8, 2013, 12:11 AM
Notice that .380 ammo pretty much did not run out this go around?

I just bought 1,000 rounds of Blazer Brass (9mm). I think I'll also buy 1,000 rounds of .380, too.

WinThePennant
January 8, 2013, 12:12 AM
<deleted>

Batty67
January 8, 2013, 12:20 PM
I see 45 ACP (and 1911s) becoming a lot more popular. I should be getting mine next week (GB win). Of course, I had been planning to get one to pai up with my Marlin Camp 45 I got last November.

Recon Ron
January 8, 2013, 12:39 PM
Part of the problem is the gun shop workers. I know because I am one.


Truck came in yesterday and between the boss and me all the .22lr and half the .223 were "sold out" 5 minutes before we opened. (couldn't take all the .223 because thats just mean)

Not really the best business practice, but if I want to shoot and have access why not buy. We are a low volume gun dealer (maybe 1-3 firearms per day even with the craze) and I can only expect our competitors do the same with the hundreds of thousand of rounds they usually stock.

At least we don't jack up prices :D

Just an "insiders" perspective, trying to aware and explain not be flamed.

Killian
January 8, 2013, 12:52 PM
Ah...the question is answered. Why is there an ammo shortage? Ron Recon. :D

Carne Frio
January 8, 2013, 04:25 PM
It's pretty simple. A whole lot of people
recently purchased a few million guns.
You need ammo to feed them. More guns
equals more ammo. And those who did
not buy a gun, still need to feed the ones
they have. And, yes, Poo happens.
(Caca pasa)

DJW
January 8, 2013, 04:35 PM
We need to remember that there are numerous bliss-ninnies screaming for disarming the public...........that tends to make some folks nervous about future availability. Just sayin'

SSN Vet
January 8, 2013, 06:01 PM
just as a side note.... there doesn't seem to be any shortage of shotguns or shot gun shells, or shot gun reloading components out there.

No love for for the shot gun?

jgraham
January 8, 2013, 06:26 PM
just as a side note.... there doesn't seem to be any shortage of shotguns or shot gun shells, or shot gun reloading components out there.

No love for for the shot gun?
I have plenty of love for the shotgun, but I can't even find any 12Ga around here heavier than #6 birdshot.

OilyPablo
January 8, 2013, 09:30 PM
Ron Recon - your boss needs to think BIG. Order MORE ammo!!:D

Warp
January 8, 2013, 09:38 PM
Even when explaining this to a wife who is very intelligent and understanding, some of them must suspect that if we accumulate more than a few thousand rounds, we might later lose interest in either a specific gun or 'caliber'.

It'll last long enough for that interest to return.

thump_rrr
January 9, 2013, 12:17 AM
It's funny because the Canadian market reacts when there is something occurring in the US market.

We always seem to get the leftovers from your side of the border so as soon as something happens which may affect production lots of people on this side of the border begin to step up their ammo and firearm purchases.

radiotom
January 9, 2013, 11:13 AM
SHHHHHHHHHHHHH........

Don't tell everybody that shotgun ammo is in stock everywhere at normal prices...I don't want what is happening to .22lr happening to those....:uhoh:

mikechandler
January 9, 2013, 11:40 AM
Just sit tight and wait. Nothing is going to happen, it's just more political posturing. The house is republican, and it will be that way until mid-term elections, at the very least. That's a full two years. Ar15s are on order, and still shipping. The ammo companies will step up production, and next summer sales will be rampant.

Meanwhile, how is it you guys don't reload? I couldn't afford to shoot without reloading, and besides that, long after you've drooled over all those pretty guns for many hours, and bought every accessory you can imagine, filled up that safe, and you're neck deep in snow... don't you want to expand your hobby? Reloading is fun, edifying, and rewarding... and best of all you can sink a LOT of time into it, and the more time you spend on it, the greater the rewards. The coolest part of all is you can start looking at guns that you could never afford to shoot if you didn't reload - you're opening up a whole new world of fun.

It doesn't cost much to get started - and you're better off not spending much on a reloader anyway, as it's more important to master the steps, which is easier doing single step loading, which is pretty inexpensive to start with. And you'll want to keep that single step press anyway, even if you have a massive ammo plant style progressive, so it's not money wasted (how many hobbies can say that?).

Next time you see price gouging on ammo, shop the component pricing, and do the math.

RetiredUSNChief
January 9, 2013, 12:04 PM
The best thing to do is keep calm...and keep looking for the ammunition you need.

Shelves are indeed pretty bare...but it's still around. I just went to one Walmart Monday and they happened to have several boxes of Winchester .45 (the 100 round boxes that I buy). I bought five...then went to the range the next day.

As for people hoarding and gouging...I stay away from those people. Whoever they might be, they certainly aren't people I'd call "friends". That's taking advantage of people. Friends don't do that to friends...or to other people. At worst, they'd give up some at cost, knowing it's the fair thing to do.

Things aren't so bad that I wouldn't share a few rounds with the guy next to me at the range, if he needed some. Life is not so bad that I need to lose my humanity and manners over this.

People are reacting the way they are mostly out of fear of what may be coming down the pike. A few, however, are reacting the way they are because they see they can take advantage of the rest during these times and make a profit.

Those few can bugger off as far as I'm concerned. They're parasites and none of us need people like them.

radiotom
January 9, 2013, 12:30 PM
Here we go again with the evil profits.

RetiredUSNChief
January 9, 2013, 03:30 PM
Here we go again with the evil profits.

Nothing wrong with making a profit.

Gouging people, however...that's another matter.

Warp
January 9, 2013, 03:52 PM
Nothing wrong with making a profit.

Gouging people, however...that's another matter.

No, it isn't.

It's supply and demand.

It is quite silly to complain about having the option to purchase a product for 2.5x more than it cost a month ago instead of having zero option to purchase the product because the seller in question sold out 3 weeks ago.

If you think the asking price is too high, and they won't negotiate down, don't buy it.

TreeDoc
January 9, 2013, 03:56 PM
Prepping paid off, 3 months ago I decided to consolidate many of my calibers and sold a few guns that I really didn't shoot much. Took the proceeds and bought ammo for the remaining. It's kinda funny to me, I'm never ahead of the curve. I remember ordering a couple of cases of ammo and thinking, if you can buy 2, can I afford 6. I said what the heck and ordered 6. 2 weeks afterwards is when this craziness began.

Killian
January 9, 2013, 04:08 PM
If you think the asking price is too high, and they won't negotiate down, don't buy it.

Hear, hear! Anything else just smacks of socialism/communism. "We should bring mag and ammo prices down so that all the workers can enjoy the benefits of plentiful and cheap shooting supplies." Next we'll hear talk about "magazine redistribution" and "collectivist shooting".

random_gun
January 9, 2013, 04:27 PM
Just came back from Walmart, ammo shelf still mostly empty, only a few boxes of rare caliber ammo are in stock....
I saw a couple boxes of 22, was about to clear the shelf ;) I realized they are 22 short........while I was there, someone called in to ask about 22lr ammo...
they did have two boxes of 45 at $1.5 per round....
I guess I won't be able to go back to the range for at least a month....

skypirate7
January 9, 2013, 07:22 PM
Focus people. This isn't a debate about communism and capitalism. It's the anti-gun ******s that are driving up the prices with all of their proposed anti-gun legislation. They have created a market panic, plain and simple.

Propose a ban on the manufacture/import of combustion engine automobiles and you will achieve the same effect.

RetiredUSNChief
January 9, 2013, 07:33 PM
No, it isn't.

It's supply and demand.

It is quite silly to complain about having the option to purchase a product for 2.5x more than it cost a month ago instead of having zero option to purchase the product because the seller in question sold out 3 weeks ago.

If you think the asking price is too high, and they won't negotiate down, don't buy it.

Sure, it's supply and demand. Malisciously so, and THAT'S the difference.

In my mind's eye, it's EXACTLY like the people who took advantage of hurricane Hugo's victims in 1989, trucking in and selling things like generators and such at hugely marked up prices, knowing people would have no choice in the matter because they needed those supplies. People who lost their homes, their jobs, had children to feed, and so forth.

This is different than someone who has a store of ammunition they purchased years earlier when fair market prices were lower. I would not begrudge them selling at the current fair market prices.

And no, I don't buy from people who gouge.

Warp
January 9, 2013, 07:42 PM
Sure, it's supply and demand. Malisciously so, and THAT'S the difference.

In my mind's eye, it's EXACTLY like the people who took advantage of hurricane Hugo's victims in 1989, trucking in and selling things like generators and such at hugely marked up prices, knowing people would have no choice in the matter because they needed those supplies. People who lost their homes, their jobs, had children to feed, and so forth.

This is different than someone who has a store of ammunition they purchased years earlier when fair market prices were lower. I would not begrudge them selling at the current fair market prices.

And no, I don't buy from people who gouge.

And you think that not having the option of buying any generators at any price is better? Really?

sonick808
January 9, 2013, 07:58 PM
Gouging IS PREDATORY. Period.

Warp
January 9, 2013, 08:02 PM
Gouging IS PREDATORY. Period.

Supply and demand, my friend...supply and demand.

Do you really think that zero option to purchase something is better than the option to purchase something at a high price? Really?

RetiredUSNChief
January 9, 2013, 08:39 PM
In the case I cited, the gouging was very rapidly nipped in the bud through a couple methods, both involving citizen uproar and action by authorities.

Predatory behavior in inexcusable, in my opinion.

In the case of ammunition, per this string, it's not as serious as with the disaster victim situation I used as an example. Not being able to get a supply of ammunition is not likely to place undue hardship on people's immediate lives, unless one can say it's because they don't have anything which can be used to put food on their table or reasonably defend themselves in the interim.

But the basic premise is the same: it's taking unfair advantage of people in a time when people are vulnerable for a perceived threat.


That is not "the law of supply and demand" in any healthy economic model. It's predatory behavior, pure and simple, just as sonick808 put it.

Warp
January 9, 2013, 08:42 PM
In the case I cited, the gouging was very rapidly nipped in the bud through a couple methods, both involving citizen uproar and action by authorities.

Predatory behavior in inexcusable, in my opinion.

In the case of ammunition, per this string, it's not as serious as with the disaster victim situation I used as an example. Not being able to get a supply of ammunition is not likely to place undue hardship on people's immediate lives, unless one can say it's because they don't have anything which can be used to put food on their table or reasonably defend themselves in the interim.

But the basic premise is the same: it's taking unfair advantage of people in a time when people are vulnerable for a perceived threat.


That is not "the law of supply and demand" in any healthy economic model. It's predatory behavior, pure and simple, just as sonick808 put it.

So they want generators, and you think they should not be able to buy any, at any cost? That sound pretty, well...mean

anchorman
January 9, 2013, 08:45 PM
Gouging IS PREDATORY. Period.

I might agree, but it keeps people from hoarding. well, a little bit...

anchorman
January 9, 2013, 08:51 PM
just as a side note.... there doesn't seem to be any shortage of shotguns or shot gun shells, or shot gun reloading components out there.

No love for for the shot gun?
there's totally a shortage of shotgun shells at walmart. They've been cleared out in my area. even the LGS is lower than normal, though turkey season is just around the corner, so...

RetiredUSNChief
January 9, 2013, 08:57 PM
So they want generators, and you think they should not be able to buy any, at any cost? That sound pretty, well...mean

I don't think I'm being "mean" about this at all.

What I consider "mean" are predators who swoop down to take advantage of people in their time of need.

I should think that having to pay $6,000 for a $1,200 generator for a family who has just lost their home and almost all of their belongings is a wee bit "mean", don't you think? Because this was the type of gouging I was seeing in the aftermath of hurricane Hugo.

Personally, I should think that other $4,800 could be much better used trying to obtain food, water, and clean clothing for the family.

Nothing "mean" about that at all.

Warp
January 9, 2013, 09:03 PM
I don't think I'm being "mean" about this at all.

What I consider "mean" are predators who swoop down to take advantage of people in their time of need.

I should think that having to pay $6,000 for a $1,200 generator for a family who has just lost their home and almost all of their belongings is a wee bit "mean", don't you think? Because this was the type of gouging I was seeing in the aftermath of hurricane Hugo.

Personally, I should think that other $4,800 could be much better used trying to obtain food, water, and clean clothing for the family.

Nothing "mean" about that at all.

If paying $6,000 for the generator is not in their best interest, why are they buying it?

If it is in their best interest, why is that option ceasing to exist preferable?

It doesn't make sense to say that denying them the OPTION is better.

justice06rr
January 9, 2013, 10:06 PM
Supply and demand, my friend...supply and demand.

Sure we get that. But Price gouging is still price gouging.

Does that mean I can sell one of my bare-bones AR's for $5k? What's the limit really?



Just sit tight and wait. Nothing is going to happen, it's just more political posturing. The house is republican, and it will be that way until mid-term elections, at the very least. That's a full two years. Ar15s are on order, and still shipping. The ammo companies will step up production, and next summer sales will be rampant.

Meanwhile, how is it you guys don't reload? I couldn't afford to shoot without reloading, and besides that, long after you've drooled over all those pretty guns for many hours, and bought every accessory you can imagine, filled up that safe, and you're neck deep in snow... don't you want to expand your hobby? Reloading is fun, edifying, and rewarding... and best of all you can sink a LOT of time into it, and the more time you spend on it, the greater the rewards. The coolest part of all is you can start looking at guns that you could never afford to shoot if you didn't reload - you're opening up a whole new world of fun.

It doesn't cost much to get started - and you're better off not spending much on a reloader anyway, as it's more important to master the steps, which is easier doing single step loading, which is pretty inexpensive to start with. And you'll want to keep that single step press anyway, even if you have a massive ammo plant style progressive, so it's not money wasted (how many hobbies can say that?).

Next time you see price gouging on ammo, shop the component pricing, and do the math.

Reloading is a different ballgame. There are many factors and costs to consider. Equipment, tools, supplies, space, money, etc.

I have looked into reloading and it will cost me close to $1k and up just to reload 223 or 9mm for the setup I want (progressive press). In these hard times, its not that easy for everyone unless you are really into shooting-- A LOT. Many people have said that you reload not to save money but to shoot more.

Warp
January 9, 2013, 10:30 PM
Sure we get that. But Price gouging is still price gouging.

Does that mean I can sell one of my bare-bones AR's for $5k? What's the limit really?

It is worth what people are willing to pay for it.

It is not "price gouging".

It is supply...and demand.

Buyers set prices, you know

mopar92
January 9, 2013, 10:46 PM
I don't have an ammo shortage. I have enough ammo to shoot 500 rounds a month for well over 10 years without running out or having to reload. I have enough reloading materials to shoot that same volume for another 10 years. :)

Not sure I'd put myself on the map bragging about having 60,000 rounds of ammo....

fatcat4620
January 9, 2013, 11:03 PM
Just checked the garage. Not sure what shortage your talking about?

RetiredUSNChief
January 10, 2013, 06:26 AM
If paying $6,000 for the generator is not in their best interest, why are they buying it?

If it is in their best interest, why is that option ceasing to exist preferable?

It doesn't make sense to say that denying them the OPTION is better.

You're kidding, right?

When a child MUST have respirator treatment, which requires electrical power, what choice do you think a parent has?

When the only food readily available to a family for the next several weeks is what lies in their freezer and the ONLY option they have is to buy a generator at FIVE TIMES fair retail from someone with a trailer load, what choice do you think they have?

Price gouging isn't about "fair market enterprise". It isn't even close. It's about taking everything one can get from people because they don't have any choice. All for the sole benefit of the seller.

A market is about trade. A trade is a mutually advantageous deal between a merchant and a buyer, value for value, of either merchandise or services. The modern medium for trade is money, earned in exchange for services rendered elsewhere. Gouging is an extremely unbalanced and unfair advantage in the favor of the seller.

Akin to price gouging is the monopoly. But I digress.

mikechandler
January 10, 2013, 12:10 PM
Sure we get that. But Price gouging is still price gouging.

Does that mean I can sell one of my bare-bones AR's for $5k? What's the limit really?

No limit. It's a free-market, and prices are dictated by supply and demand. Demand is astronomical right now, so prices go up. You are not required to ask those prices, or pay them.

For that matter, I am still not seeing actual price gouging where I buy - prices have moved only marginally, at most.



Reloading is a different ballgame. There are many factors and costs to consider. Equipment, tools, supplies, space, money, etc.

I have looked into reloading and it will cost me close to $1k and up just to reload 223 or 9mm for the setup I want (progressive press). In these hard times, its not that easy for everyone unless you are really into shooting-- A LOT. Many people have said that you reload not to save money but to shoot more.

Shooting more = less expensive per round, more shooting per dollar. Same thing.

Starting with a progressive is not very wise, and yes, very expensive. Jumping in head first to reloading with a progressive is not going to be fun - there will be a lot going on with every pull of the handle, and you'll probably end up with powder all over the place, unspent primers on the floor, bent cases, cartridges in your bin with no primers all kinds of woes - I've helped out locals who did exactly this and really regretted it; it's a common mistake.

Even if you're making up to a couple hundred rounds at a time, single steps are just fine, and much better from a quality assurance perspective. A begining reloader making more than 50 rounds at a time is a mistake anyway, especially ammo for semi-autos. I make less than that whenever I load a new cartridge, try a different powder, or new bullet. You'll end up wanting a good single stage press regardless, even if you buy a full ammo plant setup, for when you want to make the very most accurate ammo you can make.

Recheck your prices accordingly, you can get into this pretty inexpensively, and you will be doing something pro-active. Conversely, whining about the free-market price of ammo is worse than doing nothing at all.

radiotom
January 10, 2013, 12:12 PM
Sure we get that. But Price gouging is still price gouging.

Does that mean I can sell one of my bare-bones AR's for $5k? What's the limit really?




Reloading is a different ballgame. There are many factors and costs to consider. Equipment, tools, supplies, space, money, etc.

I have looked into reloading and it will cost me close to $1k and up just to reload 223 or 9mm for the setup I want (progressive press). In these hard times, its not that easy for everyone unless you are really into shooting-- A LOT. Many people have said that you reload not to save money but to shoot more.
Whoa whoa whoa there. Price gouging is causing a shortage? Less buyers at higher prices....supply and demand. Seriously, it's time to google supply and demand and learn before talking about it.

mikechandler
January 10, 2013, 12:38 PM
You're kidding, right?

When a child MUST have respirator treatment, which requires electrical power, what choice do you think a parent has?

When the only food readily available to a family for the next several weeks is what lies in their freezer and the ONLY option they have is to buy a generator at FIVE TIMES fair retail from someone with a trailer load, what choice do you think they have?

Price gouging isn't about "fair market enterprise". It isn't even close. It's about taking everything one can get from people because they don't have any choice. All for the sole benefit of the seller.

A market is about trade. A trade is a mutually advantageous deal between a merchant and a buyer, value for value, of either merchandise or services. The modern medium for trade is money, earned in exchange for services rendered elsewhere. Gouging is an extremely unbalanced and unfair advantage in the favor of the seller.

Akin to price gouging is the monopoly. But I digress.

Any child's health impacted by an electrical outage deserves a call to your local fire-dept. They will come out, get your utility company, and/or put a generator on, or move the child to a care facility. So let's be realistic.. this isn't a life or death situation here.

You don't "NEED" an AR15, or a thousand rounds of penetrator ammo, or a high-cap magazine. I watch the news, we're not having a civil war, and the dead are not walking the earth looking for fresh meat. You want this stuff, in fear of a ban, along with many others, and like many others you imagine that in a ban environment the value of these items will be even higher.

But where was your support for these items in the many years preceding the ban? Why don't you already have these items?

What you're really complaining about is that people didn't think anything would ever change, didn't buy and use any of these items, and now that some kind of action MIGHT happen from the feds, they want to run out with 200,000,000 others who suddenly "need" an AR15 with a hi-cap mag and a boatload of ammo. Worst of all the majority of these people want to do it now, so they won't have to pay the price hike that would go with a ban - a purely financial motive.

And you're going to complain that the prices are going to be steep? You want the owners of these items, shooters who have supported the platforms for years, to hand over their items at prices that (if you are correct) they would never replace them for?

Who exactly are the greedy ones? IMHO it's everyone whining about the prices.

Proud supporter of the AR15 platform (and not a bit of it bought within the last year):
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n546/mikeinchandler/LE6920/LE6920_Custom_010.jpg

RetiredUSNChief
January 10, 2013, 12:41 PM
Whoa whoa whoa there. Price gouging is causing a shortage? Less buyers at higher prices....supply and demand. Seriously, it's time to google supply and demand and learn before talking about it.

Just from my own perspective, let's make it clear that I'm not talking about price gouging causing a shortage. I'm talking about some people who buy up ammunition at one price and turn around and sell it at unreasonably higher prices later to people because they no longer have any choice if they feel they cannot ride out the shortage.

From what I've seen, and I've priced ammunition in various stores across a three state area these last few weeks, the commercial prices for all the ammunition I buy has remained virtually unchanged. It's simply moving off the shelves about as fast as it can be stocked.

So the stores aren't engaging in price gouging tactics. It's some individuals who are.

And no, I'm not counting people who only mark up what they have by a few dollars.

Thankfully, I've seen nobody actually pulling that kind of stunt around me. I've occasionally seen a couple guys exchange ammunition for money at an outdoor range, but it was always at what I thought was a fair market value. Good guys exhibiting good sportsmanlike conduct to fellow people in the same hobby.

oneounceload
January 10, 2013, 12:55 PM
Sure we get that. But Price gouging is still price gouging.

Does that mean I can sell one of my bare-bones AR's for $5k? What's the limit really?


It means you can ASK $5K for it, but as mentioned above, the buyer sets the price on all goods and services sold

I'm talking about some people who buy up ammunition at one price and turn around and sell it at unreasonably higher prices later to people because they no longer have any choice if they feel they cannot ride out the shortage.

It is not an unreasonably higher price if folks WILLINGLY buy it. I don't see folks whining about jewelers who buy rocks, mark them up over 1000% and convince people to buy them; after all, they are just rocks - why the whining here?

Price gouging isn't about "fair market enterprise". It isn't even close. It's about taking everything one can get from people because they don't have any choice. All for the sole benefit of the seller.

When it comes to guns and ammo, especially specific guns and ammo, everyone has a CHOICE - you either buy it or not. If everyone refuses to pay that $5K for an AR, it will not sell; however, if one person feels it is a fair price and willingly pays it, then it was priced out accordingly.

I would bet that most here complaining would be singing a different tune had they been the ones that bought 20 ARs for 500 and are now selling them for 1500

Jeff H
January 10, 2013, 01:00 PM
Sure we get that. But Price gouging is still price gouging.

Does that mean I can sell one of my bare-bones AR's for $5k? What's the limit really?

This quote has been beaten to death, but just to stick one more nail in it: Have you seen the cost of fully auto M16s? They don't cost any more to make than the semi versions, why do they cost 20 times more??? Supply and demand.

Highland Ranger
January 10, 2013, 01:24 PM
I agree. Lot of folks who made jokes about other people's level of preparedness are now asking if they can buy ammo from the very same people they mocked. One of these folks just paid $2500 for a used plain jane AR.

Proving once again that what comes around goes around.

On a related note: if you look at the prices, wasn't that long ago 45acp was $6/50 for hardball. Looks like its now up near $20/50. Best investment I ever made . . . . .

22-rimfire
January 10, 2013, 01:43 PM
I don't have a big issue with raising prices to match the market whether it be a generator, a firearm, food or water. In a worst case situation, one needs to consider what currency is acceptable.

RetiredUSNChief
January 10, 2013, 01:49 PM
Any child's health impacted by an electrical outage deserves a call to your local fire-dept. They will come out, get your utility company, and/or put a generator on, or move the child to a care facility. So let's be realistic.. this isn't a life or death situation here.

You don't "NEED" an AR15, or a thousand rounds of penetrator ammo, or a high-cap magazine. I watch the news, we're not having a civil war, and the dead are not walking the earth looking for fresh meat. You want this stuff, in fear of a ban, along with many others, and like many others you imagine that in a ban environment the value of these items will be even higher.

But where was your support for these items in the many years preceding the ban? Why don't you already have these items?

What you're really complaining about is that people didn't think anything would ever change, didn't buy and use any of these items, and now that some kind of action MIGHT happen from the feds, they want to run out with 200,000,000 others who suddenly "need" an AR15 with a hi-cap mag and a boatload of ammo. Worst of all the majority of these people want to do it now, so they won't have to pay the price hike that would go with a ban - a purely financial motive.

And you're going to complain that the prices are going to be steep? You want the owners of these items, shooters who have supported the platforms for years, to hand over their items at prices that (if you are correct) they would never replace them for?

Who exactly are the greedy ones? IMHO it's everyone whining about the prices.

In the scenario I was speaking of, the fire department was not always an option. Roads were completely blocked for days, weeks in some places. And, before this detours too much further, yes I know there were other options. I was there, I was part of those "other options".

But that does not excuse those who chose to prey on the misfortune of others.

As for the "need" for an AR15 and thousands of rounds of ammo...I never once said that. Please do me the courtesy of not putting such words in my mouth.

As for my "support for these items in the many years preceding the ban" and why I didn't stock up...again, please do me the courtesty of not putting words into my mouth nor making unwarranted assumptions about my own personal support or preparations. I was not talking about banned items. I was talking about price gouging on market items currently available.

And also please do me the courtesty of not putting words into my mouth about what I'm "really complaining about", either. I'm quite able to put what I'm "really complaining about" in my own words, thank you.

Please go back over my postings. Never once was I talking about people who suddenly developed a "need" for anything like an AR15, hi-cap magazines, and a boatload of ammunition simply based on current events.

:banghead:

Killian
January 10, 2013, 01:51 PM
People who are willing to part with something which they themselves might need--ammunition, rifles, magazines, or a generator--during a time when those things may be in short supply (or never ever to be made again ever ever ever...in the case of what they are talking about doing to guns and mags in Washington right now) then for someone to part with them is going to take an extra inducement. In this case a higher amount of money than the item might previously had brought. Rare items demand higher prices. That's just a truism.

Bemoaning this situation seems to be related to jealousy. "Why didn't *I* buy that generator when I could have gotten it cheap? Why are we forced to buy it from someone who wants more for it than it cost 2 days ago?" That type of jealousy is the kind used as a motivator in Communist states. "The rich have more than you. This is unfair. Let us take from them and give to you."

If the price is too high, don't buy it. And live without the object--be it gasoline (Sandy) or generators (all hurricane disasters), or guns and magazines (now).

Ratshooter
January 10, 2013, 02:03 PM
I wish i had 15 Walmart's close by

Me too. I love Walmart.

My local WM is out of everything. I didn't look too close though. I have about all the ammo and componants I need for the next several years. Maybe the rest of my life. I don't burn through ammo like I used to.

random_gun
January 10, 2013, 03:06 PM
I went to check out all gun stores within 1 hour... found everything except for 223
7.62x39 ammo 20 round for $11.....
A Walmart have 50 round remington 22LR for $2.14(they only allowed me to buy 4 boxes tho), another store has it for $3..... one store was selling CCI 50 round for $6...
They all say how short they are on ammo but I feel they are holding back on their stock.....

Warp
January 10, 2013, 04:11 PM
You're kidding, right?

When a child MUST have respirator treatment, which requires electrical power, what choice do you think a parent has?

According to you they shouldn't have any choice at all.




Price gouging isn't about "fair market enterprise". It isn't even close. It's about taking everything one can get from people because they don't have any choice. All for the sole benefit of the seller.

So they MUST have respirator treatment, and getting the electricity that is required for that treatment gives them zero benefit?

lol

mikechandler
January 10, 2013, 06:29 PM
In the scenario I was speaking of, the fire department was not always an option. Roads were completely blocked for days, weeks in some places. And, before this detours too much further, yes I know there were other options. I was there, I was part of those "other options".

But that does not excuse those who chose to prey on the misfortune of others.

As for the "need" for an AR15 and thousands of rounds of ammo...I never once said that. Please do me the courtesy of not putting such words in my mouth.

As for my "support for these items in the many years preceding the ban" and why I didn't stock up...again, please do me the courtesty of not putting words into my mouth nor making unwarranted assumptions about my own personal support or preparations. I was not talking about banned items. I was talking about price gouging on market items currently available.

And also please do me the courtesty of not putting words into my mouth about what I'm "really complaining about", either. I'm quite able to put what I'm "really complaining about" in my own words, thank you.

Please go back over my postings. Never once was I talking about people who suddenly developed a "need" for anything like an AR15, hi-cap magazines, and a boatload of ammunition simply based on current events.

:banghead:

And please don't imagine I am only addressing you and not the topic. The first paragraph alone, regarding firemen was towards your comment (not even towards you).

You assumed way too much, and then worse you got offended. It's a forum, pal, and we're addressing the topic, along the way perhaps addressing comments from others here and there.

:)

Trust me - when I'm addressing only YOU, you'll know it - it will be in a PM.

JohnBT
January 10, 2013, 06:36 PM
"When the only food readily available to a family for the next several weeks is what lies in their freezer and the ONLY option they have is to buy a generator at FIVE TIMES "

It is not the seller's fault you didn't plan ahead to protect your investment. If you really need something - like a generator - it's never too early to get it.

John

rtz
January 10, 2013, 06:45 PM
Can we get a trainload or two of Aguila or Magtech? I guarantee you will sell every last round of it!

Contact both of them and have every last round shipped:

http://www.magtechammunition.com/

http://www.aguilaammo.com/


Any ammo in Canada?

How about clearing Norinco?


"In 1993, the import of most Norinco firearms and ammunition into the United States were blocked under new trade rules when China's Most Favored Nation status was renewed."

"In August 2003, the Bush Administration imposed sanctions on Norinco for allegedly selling missile-related goods to Iran. These sanctions led to a prohibition on imports into the US of the remaining types of firearms and ammunition not covered by the 1993 ban. While neither the Chinese government nor Norinco has denied doing business with Iranian companies, they dismissed the allegation that it involved missile related goods. Norinco has called the sanctions "groundless and unjustified" and "entirely unreasonable."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norinco

Harold Heffern
January 10, 2013, 07:41 PM
Walmart: I just happen to be in local Walmart yesterday, and seen they had 8 boxes of Winchester 308's. They went home with me!!!!!!!!!!

RetiredUSNChief
January 10, 2013, 07:43 PM
And please don't imagine I am only addressing you and not the topic. The first paragraph alone, regarding firemen was towards your comment (not even towards you).

You assumed way too much, and then worse you got offended. It's a forum, pal, and we're addressing the topic, along the way perhaps addressing comments from others here and there.

:)

Trust me - when I'm addressing only YOU, you'll know it - it will be in a PM.

Fair enough!

:)

RetiredUSNChief
January 10, 2013, 08:10 PM
According to you they shouldn't have any choice at all.

So they MUST have respirator treatment, and getting the electricity that is required for that treatment gives them zero benefit?

lol

I made my point about price gouging and what context defines it. But I'll be happy to go another round:

Price gouging is a predatory behavior, not related to sustainable economics as the "law of supply and demand" does. Nominal increases in prices due to changes in supply and demand are, indeed, legitimate and serve their purpose in the overall scheme of economics. Price gouging, as predatory behavior, does not serve that purpose.

My point has been made several times. Your recent postings do nothing but ridicule that and don't bring anything further to this.

You either misrepresent my posts, ridicule the circumstances, or are simply looking for an argument.

Any way you look at it, however, the subject of "price gouging", meant to be a minor tangent on the previous ongoing discussion, has drifted far off of the topic as originally posted, which is "Why is there an ammo shortage?"

Have a good day.

Warp
January 10, 2013, 08:34 PM
I made my point about price gouging and what context defines it. But I'll be happy to go another round:

Price gouging is a predatory behavior, not related to sustainable economics as the "law of supply and demand" does. Nominal increases in prices due to changes in supply and demand are, indeed, legitimate and serve their purpose in the overall scheme of economics. Price gouging, as predatory behavior, does not serve that purpose.

My point has been made several times. Your recent postings do nothing but ridicule that and don't bring anything further to this.

You either misrepresent my posts, ridicule the circumstances, or are simply looking for an argument.

Any way you look at it, however, the subject of "price gouging", meant to be a minor tangent on the previous ongoing discussion, has drifted far off of the topic as originally posted, which is "Why is there an ammo shortage?"

Have a good day.

Your "point" seems to be that you believe you get to arbitrarily dictate what constitutes "nominal increases in prices due to changes in supply and demand" and and what constitutes "price gouging".

243winxb
January 10, 2013, 08:52 PM
Factories only have so many machines/equipment to produce many different calibers. Not one line for each. When inventory is gone, it may be a few months till they make more. Same with guns. As for "price gouging" who knows what the new retail price will be in this new year. Prices always go up it seems. Watch out for double digit inflation, might happen. :uhoh:

Highland Ranger
January 10, 2013, 09:06 PM
The free market takes care of gougers - people can choose not to do business with them when the situation stabilizes.

Folks who either didn't think ahead or didn't have the resources to make preparations will fare accordingly.

GoWolfpack
January 11, 2013, 02:38 PM
Sorry Chief, but I can't get together with you on this one. No such thing as "gouging", just prices rising in response to demand.

Two very instructive John Stossel videos regarding what is ordinarily called "price gouging" and how it is actually a good thing for everyone.
Video 1, old (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6ojYtKazgQ)
Video 2, post Hurricane Sandy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llApD9ehGHI)


Taking generators as an example:
Every day of the week, approximately 364 days per year (closed on Christmas), Lowes and Home Depot compete against each other to sell you a generator at the lowest possible price. From the comfort of your home you can order one from Harbor Freight Tools for as little as $150 and have it shipped to your doorstep. I'll go on record saying there is no one in this country who could not get a generator at what we would all consider fair market price approximately 98% of the time. However, these retailers will be sold out in the few days leading up to and the weeks following a natural disaster. To wait until after losing power following some disaster to decide you need a generator shows poor judgement, and to demand that a generator be available to you at the same price as every other day shows a vastly inflated sense of entitlement that I refuse to support.


Regarding the current panic and supposed "gouging", the explanation is quite simple: the discussion of impending legislation that would seriously impinge (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/impinge) on the second amendment rights of all citizens has created a class of buyers that is now willing to pay considerably more to obtain AR-15s, standard capacity magazines and ammunition than they previously would have. Retailers are responding to this demand and attempting to maintain their stock by raising prices to a point where it would be financially uncomfortable for a person to buy more than they felt they "need."

Walmart is out of stock after maintaining pre-scare prices. An LGS here has more than doubled their prices, and has plenty in stock. I might not like it, but if I actually needed ammunition, I would buy from the LGS.




And Chief, watch the videos before you respond. They're worth the time.

mikechandler
January 14, 2013, 12:20 PM
The people whining really are getting out of control.

I listed a bunch of match grade ammo for sale, at this summer's prices, in local pages and people sent me nasty mail saying I was price gouging, I should burn in hell, etc. And they never bothered to look up the ammo in question (federal premium gold medal match 69 gr Sierra Matchking BTHP - super expensive premium grade ammo). I was actually listing it at the price I paid for it new ($29 a box). I figured in the current environment I could at least sell it without taking a loss on it. Is that wrong, or somehow dishonest?

:banghead:

The people whining about the so-called price gouging truly suck; in my case they were totally clueless, way off base, and it really boiled down to them wanting me to sell expensive ammo at prices they could go plinking with.

RetiredUSNChief
January 14, 2013, 05:34 PM
The people whining really are getting out of control.

I listed a bunch of match grade ammo for sale, at this summer's prices, in local pages and people sent me nasty mail saying I was price gouging, I should burn in hell, etc. And they never bothered to look up the ammo in question (federal premium gold medal match 69 gr Sierra Matchking BTHP - super expensive premium grade ammo). I was actually listing it at the price I paid for it new ($29 a box). I figured in the current environment I could at least sell it without taking a loss on it. Is that wrong, or somehow dishonest?

:banghead:

The people whining about the so-called price gouging truly suck; in my case they were totally clueless, way off base, and it really boiled down to them wanting me to sell expensive ammo at prices they could go plinking with.

No, THAT is not price gouging. Not in the least. Even if you had marked it up somewhat to account for your personal storage and handling plus marketing efforts, that would not be price gouging.

Match grade ammo always goes for higher prices and expecting to get it at the same prices as lower grade ammunition is not reasonable.

Warp
January 14, 2013, 08:04 PM
Apparently "price gouging" = asking for the market price

oneounceload
January 14, 2013, 08:16 PM
Geez, why do folks think that market forces at work making their hobby more expensive is gouging. If you WILLINGLY pay the asking price, it is called supply and demand.
Quit whining about high prices and focus your efforts on contacting your elected representatives. Ammo does not fall into the category about gouging

heeler
January 15, 2013, 12:01 AM
Markets and the patient buyer are two different dogs.
Last week I bought 250 rounds of S&B 380 Auto for $12.79 a box.
I decided to buy more the next day but alas the other online searchers bought out the existing stock,no doubt with all wack job politico types going on about internet ammo sales blah blah blah.....
Program two...Head over to GunBroker where everyone lately is carping about gouging etc.
However today I found a dealer willing to part with 1000 round case of PMC 380 fmj,an ammo that runs great in my LCP's, for a starting bid of $280 and after some other person bidding on it I win the bid for a total of $290.60 which averages to $14.53 a box.
Oh sure I had to pay $35 for shipping but then again IF I found 1000 rounds of this same ammo in good old Houston Texas for the very same price including the states 8.25% sales tax the differences is roughly a whole....$11.
Be patient brothers and sisters and shop smartly with your money.

mopar92
January 24, 2013, 08:03 AM
There are some deals on gunbroker if you are patient and look at a ton of ads on page 2,3,4 etc. My neighbor found wolf .223 in 1,000 box for $455 shipped. That was Tuesday. Patients is the key...

Warp
January 24, 2013, 11:42 AM
There are some deals on gunbroker if you are patient and look at a ton of ads on page 2,3,4 etc. My neighbor found wolf .223 in 1,000 box for $455 shipped. That was Tuesday. Patients is the key...

I don't consider steel case Russian .223 at $.455 per round to be a deal. That's around twice what it used to cost, which is basically in line with the market right now.

Now, the IMI 5.56x45 M193 my dad ordered for $.48 per round, shipped ($552/1,200 + shipping), from Wideners a few days ago...that's what I consider a deal.

Barry the Bear
January 24, 2013, 12:35 PM
Ive been finding weirder stuff oldies but goodies. Silvertips,Black talons, that nature but thank god no one seems to be buying .44s too much

Pismopal
January 24, 2013, 03:37 PM
Just like milk and bread before and after a hurricane. :D

random_gun
January 24, 2013, 10:41 PM
Just noticed blank is also on backorder at sportsmansguide...
What's the problem with people buying up all the blank??? ***...

gwsut
January 24, 2013, 10:56 PM
My concern isn't why but when do you think stocked ammo will become adbuntant again?

Warp
January 25, 2013, 12:32 AM
My concern isn't why but when do you think stocked ammo will become adbuntant again?

Depends, and who knows.

Maybe in time for the holidays?

Queen_of_Thunder
January 25, 2013, 09:17 AM
My concern isn't why but when do you think stocked ammo will become adbuntant again?
Hard question to answer. I've heard that the major calibers will be the first to start showing up. My guess is if you dont have a 2 year supply of ammo you will run out.

The real worry is there may be fewer LGS around by the time this mess is straightend out. If they have nothing to sell they will go out of business. Many jobs will be lost.

Warp
January 25, 2013, 10:11 AM
Hard question to answer. I've heard that the major calibers will be the first to start showing up. My guess is if you dont have a 2 year supply of ammo you will run out.

The real worry is there may be fewer LGS around by the time this mess is straightend out. If they have nothing to sell they will go out of business. Many jobs will be lost.

I don't think they will have nothing to sell. Manufacturers are still producing. It's just that now the stores are selling everything they can get almost before they get it. This is not a bad thing.

Sure, they may not have much to sell right now...because they already sold it, which should put them ahead of hte game, no?

Ronin101
January 25, 2013, 07:22 PM
technically its profiteering.. as gouging is supposed to be things that you can't live without, like air, water, food medical care, etc. But since everybody understands gouging I guess it semantics. I dont have a problem with prices going up somewhat. like 20-30 percent over retail. But 100 pmags/ 139 colt mags at Cheaper than dirt is disgusting to me.

back to the ammo shortage. People are scared. A tax increase on ammo could double the cost. Inflation is ever increasing. As people have noted. Ammo contnues to go up, even pre-panic. There was talk of banning imported ammunition. What do you think will happen if Wolf, Prvi Partizan, Fiochi, Tula, PMC, etc are all banned from import? ammo shortages for years if not decades. Unless more ammo companies open in the US it would be long term shortages.

A lot of good having a firearm is if you dont have anything to shoot out of it!

radiotom
January 25, 2013, 07:36 PM
technically its profiteering.. as gouging is supposed to be things that you can't live without, like air, water, food medical care, etc. But since everybody understands gouging I guess it semantics. I dont have a problem with prices going up somewhat. like 20-30 percent over retail. But 100 pmags/ 139 colt mags at Cheaper than dirt is disgusting to me.

back to the ammo shortage. People are scared. A tax increase on ammo could double the cost. Inflation is ever increasing. As people have noted. Ammo contnues to go up, even pre-panic. There was talk of banning imported ammunition. What do you think will happen if Wolf, Prvi Partizan, Fiochi, Tula, PMC, etc are all banned from import? ammo shortages for years if not decades. Unless more ammo companies open in the US it would be long term shortages.

A lot of good having a firearm is if you dont have anything to shoot out of it!
If people pay for $100 pmags at CTD when they are less than half that price on gunbroker then they deserve to be parted with their money. That is how capitalism works.

Warp
January 25, 2013, 07:46 PM
If people pay for $100 pmags at CTD when they are less than half that price on gunbroker then they deserve to be parted with their money. That is how capitalism works.

Bunbroker prices vary. They have been near/at $100 at times.

But, yes...capitalism/free market

DJW
January 25, 2013, 07:57 PM
Fortunately the federal government has plenty of hollow point ammo with which to attack the public while forcibly taking our firearms. The national socialist party is alive and well in America. Good luck comrades.

Warp
January 25, 2013, 08:00 PM
Fortunately the federal government has plenty of hollow point ammo with which to attack the public while forcibly taking our firearms. The national socialist party is alive and well in America. Good luck comrades.

I don't think they actually have all that much. When you do the math on how many enforcement officers they have, how much ammo is used for training, how many rounds it takes to qualify, how often they probably or do qualify...somebody did the match on another forum and it put things into perspective.

Batty67
January 25, 2013, 08:52 PM
technically its profiteering.. as gouging is supposed to be things that you can't live without, like air, water, food medical care, etc. But since everybody understands gouging I guess it semantics. I dont have a problem with prices going up somewhat. like 20-30 percent over retail. But 100 pmags/ 139 colt mags at Cheaper than dirt is disgusting to me.

back to the ammo shortage. People are scared. A tax increase on ammo could double the cost. Inflation is ever increasing. As people have noted. Ammo contnues to go up, even pre-panic. There was talk of banning imported ammunition. What do you think will happen if Wolf, Prvi Partizan, Fiochi, Tula, PMC, etc are all banned from import? ammo shortages for years if not decades. Unless more ammo companies open in the US it would be long term shortages.

A lot of good having a firearm is if you dont have anything to shoot out of it!
Even if internet sale bans go nowhere, ticked off Dems and anti 2nd amendment folks could push for massive tax increases on ammo. That and given ammo prices, like pretty much everything, only go up over time and might take a LONG time to come down, and will likely never go back to pre-Newtown massacre prices, folks are trying to buy whatever they can. And they are willing to pay (sometimes much) more than they would have mid-December, because they fear paying 50% more for ammo now is a lot better than paying 100% more a few months down the line.

I have to admit, I'm buying a lot of ammo (45, 9mm, and 22LR) when I can find it for close (up to 25% more or) to pre-2013 prices. My logic is: if I buy $1k in ammo in a year, why not up to to 1.5k and get it all now or in the near future? Worst case: I keep it for many years, or I can always sell it, likely for a profit. But that said, I refuse to buy it for crazy prices, but the price of crazy keeps going up...

At the rate I shoot, I have about a 1 year supply of 45acp, 2 years of 9mm and 30 carbine, and 3 years of 22LR.

Patrice
January 25, 2013, 10:29 PM
Hhmmm....Why is there an ammo shortage?

Why are some folks attributing the ammunition shortage to private citizens buying/hoarding ammunition? Supply & demand determines price, suffice to say. One is a capitalist & believes in a free-market or not. I'm not certain that anything else need be said about the prices of any goods/

Citizens hoarding ammunition and causing a retail shortage....I don't think so. In the past year agencies/departments of the Federal government purchased over 1.5 billion rounds of ammunition in various flavors, and this over-&-above their usual purchase amounts. Homeland Security, the EPA, and even the Social Security Administration were among the many Federal agencies & departments that purchased ammunition far in excess of their usual needs.

Your guess is as good as mine why the Federal government would be stockpiling to such a degree. Some nation states' standing military don't buy-up/hoard ammunition in such quantities.

I'm thinking it's a serious error in judgement to blame one's neighbor for the ammunition shortage, much less the price of ammunition.--Patrice

351 WINCHESTER
January 25, 2013, 11:01 PM
The Feds have pleanty of ammo. Back in the 70's 80's and 90's Customs used to take their excess ammo (what was left after they pilfered (stole) what they wanted) by the carload to the local dump where it was "destroyed". This was in a medium size port and much of that time only the special agents were armed. The inspectors were issued revolvers in the mid 80's, but the agents had the ammo, and qualified with wadcutters and saved the hollow points for the bad guys.

Blueduck
January 25, 2013, 11:10 PM
Hhmmm.... In the past year agencies/departments of the Federal government purchased over 1.5 billion rounds of ammunition in various flavors, and this over-&-above their usual purchase amounts.

At least some of those stories are overblown. When people heard of the big homeland security order they imagine black trucks backing up to factories and driving off in the night with 1.5 billion rounds of ammo.

If you look over it closely the order is for over for 5 years, (12 months for phase one only) and the 1.5 Billion figure is just a MAXIMUM (a minimum of 1,000 rounds to awardees). In certain government contracts they tend to put huge numbers down in this area just in case other agencies ever need to piggy back on the contracts. For example when the Parole agency I worked for went to Glock 40's, they did not go create a new ammo contract, but simply piggy backed on the Highway Patrol Contract. That was 100,000 rounds they did not expect to order, but because they had written in huge possible numbers, it was no problem ans saved money for everyone.

What you are seeing no doubt is some panic buying by large and small agencies, affraid that qualifications scheduals could be disrupted by supply shortages, which is kind of a big deal to them of course. They panic buy, so we panic buy, so they panic buy.... geez I'm gonna take up golf for 18 months :banghead:

majortoo
January 25, 2013, 11:19 PM
Local WalMart here in Virginia still had some ammo in stock at reasonable prices; (45 ACP 230 gr. FMJ for under $21 for 50 rounds, Federal or Remington). Limit of three boxes per day to hold down the hoarders.... Fancy JHP was a lot more expensive....

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