How many Automatic Weapons were there


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Sgt.Murtaugh
January 4, 2013, 05:15 PM
when the ban went into effect? Someone just told me a ban on AR's would work, citing how few crimes are committed with full-auto firearms today because of the NFA ban that occurred decades ago.

My thought is that there are tons more AR15's in circulation than there were full-auto firearms at the time of its ban. However, I cannot find any numbers to refer to.

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Bubbles
January 4, 2013, 05:27 PM
Obviously these aren't all transferrables, but in 1995 there were about 240,000 total machine guns registered with the ATF per
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF.

Even if they were all transferrable, that number is dwarfed by the number of semi-auto rifles in the public's hands today.

rcmodel
January 4, 2013, 05:29 PM
It's probably dwarfed by the unregistered ones in Los Angles too! :D

rc

Sgt.Murtaugh
January 4, 2013, 05:38 PM
good stuff. thanks bubbles.

gc70
January 4, 2013, 06:07 PM
That is very interesting.

In 1995, there were "over 240,000 (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF#page=4)" machine guns registered with the ATF.
In March of 2012, there were 488,065 (http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/050412-firearms-commerce-in-the-us-annual-statistical-update-2012.pdf#page=15) machine guns registered with the ATF.

Since citizens have not been able to add to the stock of machine guns since 1986, that means that federal and state entities and police organizations have acquired nearly a quarter of a million machine guns in the last 17 years.

Grassman
January 4, 2013, 06:10 PM
That is very interesting.

In 1995, there were "over 240,000 (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF#page=4)" machine guns registered with the ATF.
In March of 2012, there were 488,065 (http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/050412-firearms-commerce-in-the-us-annual-statistical-update-2012.pdf#page=15) machine guns registered with the ATF.

Since citizens have not been able to add to the stock of machine guns since 1986, that means that federal and state entities and police organizations have acquired nearly a quarter of a million machine guns in the last 17 years.
I believe it.

kludge
January 4, 2013, 06:15 PM
Someone just told me a ban on AR's would work, citing how few crimes are committed with REGISTERED full-auto firearms today because of the NFA ban that occurred decades ago.


Fixed it for you.

Law-abiding citizens register their full-autos.

Criminals don't.

See the connection?

JustinJ
January 4, 2013, 06:28 PM
There really aren't many crimes in the US committed with unregistered either. Of course the percentage of the population who had select fire guns at the time of the ban likely is dwarfed by the number who have weapons in the same class as the AR today.

medalguy
January 4, 2013, 06:28 PM
The figure also includes all post-ban samples and newly manufactured guns being held by manufacturers. Not all the new entries are being held by governmental organizations. And you have to wonder if just possibly the figures might be skewed by SBR and SBS figures too? Maybe the larger figure is all types of NFA weapons and not just MGs.

JohnBT
January 4, 2013, 07:22 PM
I'm sort of surprised there aren't more in the U.S. A few years ago National Geographic printed that there were over 10 million AKs in Yemen.

Carl N. Brown
January 4, 2013, 07:48 PM
kludge:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt.Murtaugh
Someone just told me a ban on AR's would work, citing how few crimes are committed with REGISTERED full-auto firearms today because of the NFA ban that occurred decades ago.

Fixed it for you.

Law-abiding citizens register their full-autos.

Criminals don't.

FBI UCR has murders with firearms broken out by rifle, shotgun, handgun, other, and type not stated. Makes me wonder how amany of the other or type not stated are illegal, unregistered NFA items.

from the FBI UCR
Homicides in America 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009
Total 14,965 15,087 14,916 14,224 13,636

Total firearms: 10,158 10,225 10,129 9,528 9,146
Handguns 7,565 7,836 7,398 6,800 6,452
Rifles 445 438 453 380 348
Shotguns 522 490 457 442 418
Other guns 138 107 116 81 94
Firearms, type not stated 1,488 1,354 1,705 1,825 1,834

Knives, cutting weapons 1,920 1,830 1,817 1,888 1,825
Blunt objects 608 618 647 603 611
Hands, fists, feet, etc. 905 841 869 875 801
Poison 9 12 10 9 6
Explosives 2 1 1 11 2
Fire 125 117 131 85 99
Narcotics 46 48 52 34 45
Drowning 20 12 12 16 8
Strangulation 118 137 134 89 121
Asphyxiation 96 106 109 87 77
Other weapons/not stated 958 1,140 1,005 999 895


On putting military style Semi-autos on the NFA, REMEMBER there was no murders by civilians with registered machine guns from 1934 to 1986, one murder with a registered machinegun by a crooked cop, and still the Democrats rushed the Hughes Amendment through to close the NFA registry to additional civilian registration of new or imported machineguns after 19 May 1986. We accept registration of military-style semi-autos, it will be inevitable that they will pull a midnight run and push a Hughes Amendment type closure of the NFA registry to semi-autos, if they don't pull a confiscation order like Howard of OZ 1996.

Bubbles
January 5, 2013, 08:46 AM
The figure also includes all post-ban samples and newly manufactured guns being held by manufacturers. Not all the new entries are being held by governmental organizations.
Goes to safe, starts counting... :D

medalguy
January 5, 2013, 11:38 AM
Yeah, yeah, rub it in.:neener:

helotaxi
January 5, 2013, 12:49 PM
When you consider that fully auto firearms have been very tightly regulated since 1936 and it was really only the big time criminals using them before that, fully auto firearms have never been a major player in crime. Just like semi-auto rifles aren't now. Fully auto firearms were also never very common in civilian hands; same can't be said for semi-autos. The idea that any type of ban could 1) be enforced, 2) found Constitutional by an honest court and 3) have any effect on crime is laughable.

mboylan
January 6, 2013, 07:38 AM
The accepted number from most nfa forums is 181,000 transferable machine guns exist in the US.

Charger442
January 7, 2013, 01:36 PM
Since citizens have not been able to add to the stock of machine guns since 1986, that means that federal and state entities and police organizations have acquired nearly a quarter of a million machine guns in the last 17 years.


most of those from the last 17 years i would say are post-86 dealer samples. only transferable from dealer to dealer, not to non-07/SOTs.

rdhood
January 7, 2013, 01:45 PM
There really aren't many crimes in the US committed with unregistered either.

There really aren't many crimes in the U.S. committed with rifles of any sort. That is why an AWB is so ludicrous.

MErl
January 8, 2013, 03:33 PM
criminals don't bother to use machine guns for two good reasons:

a hi point fits in your pocket easier.
5 shots from a hi point makes someone just as dead.

lhpgators
January 10, 2013, 04:51 PM
FBI UCR has murders with firearms broken out by rifle, shotgun, handgun, other, and type not stated. Makes me wonder how amany of the other or type not stated are illegal, unregistered NFA items.

from the FBI UCR
Homicides in America 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009
Total 14,965 15,087 14,916 14,224 13,636

Total firearms: 10,158 10,225 10,129 9,528 9,146
Handguns 7,565 7,836 7,398 6,800 6,452
Rifles 445 438 453 380 348
Shotguns 522 490 457 442 418
Other guns 138 107 116 81 94
Firearms, type not stated 1,488 1,354 1,705 1,825 1,834

Knives, cutting weapons 1,920 1,830 1,817 1,888 1,825
Blunt objects 608 618 647 603 611
Hands, fists, feet, etc. 905 841 869 875 801
Poison 9 12 10 9 6
Explosives 2 1 1 11 2
Fire 125 117 131 85 99
Narcotics 46 48 52 34 45
Drowning 20 12 12 16 8
Strangulation 118 137 134 89 121
Asphyxiation 96 106 109 87 77
Other weapons/not stated 958 1,140 1,005 999 895


On putting military style Semi-autos on the NFA, REMEMBER there was no murders by civilians with registered machine guns from 1934 to 1986, one murder with a registered machinegun by a crooked cop, and still the Democrats rushed the Hughes Amendment through to close the NFA registry to additional civilian registration of new or imported machineguns after 19 May 1986. We accept registration of military-style semi-autos, it will be inevitable that they will pull a midnight run and push a Hughes Amendment type closure of the NFA registry to semi-autos, if they don't pull a confiscation order like Howard of OZ 1996.
It looks like Hands, Feet and Fists cause twice as many murders than rifles? Maybe we should ban Hands, Feet and Fists instead.

PedalBiker
January 10, 2013, 10:51 PM
Rifles in general don't get used much in crime.Full auto just isn't terribly conducive to crime, otherwise crooks would be converting semi autos at a much larger rate.

The full auto ban was stupid, it's not like they were used much in crime before.

How many crimes are committed with school buses? Most criminals use the same kinds of cars we usually drive to work.


The things that are most useful are the ones that get used most - by everyone. If I had a jackhammer I still wouldn't use it for much. I use my Sears cordless drill all the time.

crazy-mp
January 13, 2013, 02:28 AM
most of those from the last 17 years i would say are post-86 dealer samples. only transferable from dealer to dealer, not to non-07/SOTs.

Mine are in those numbers, law enforcement has also purchased many of these guns. I know some larger police departments will purchase 50-100 at a time and these are departments for cities in the 250,000 population range. Guns get old and they change hands, often times they become hand me downs. City gets new guns and county gets city's old guns, at least here in the fly over states.

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