Trent
January 4, 2013, 06:27 PM
http://gunnuts.net/2013/01/04/a-world-without-guns/
Read this.
It's REALLY good.
Read this.
It's REALLY good.
A world without guns.
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JustinJ
January 4, 2013, 06:39 PM
I think it a pretty silly stretch to credit firearms as cause for the world being generally less brutal today than times of past. Correlation is not causation and severe brutality occurred after the invention of guns and still occurs in places today full of guns.
Trent
January 4, 2013, 06:54 PM
I can see that side of the argument.
The point the author is making is in the TOTAL absence of guns, people are no safer (or even less safe) than if they are armed with a firearm.
We see this correlated in modern society in countries such as China and Japan, where the public isn't allowed to own firearms, yet mass murder still happen with knives and hammers.
Or, a person set on an evil path will surely accomplish evil, if unopposed.
Do guns make it easier to commit good or evil acts? Sure they do!
But it ALSO makes it easier for my 120 pound wife to defend herself from a physically stronger male attacker. Without the gun, she wouldn't stand a chance.
The point the author is making is in the TOTAL absence of guns, people are no safer (or even less safe) than if they are armed with a firearm.
We see this correlated in modern society in countries such as China and Japan, where the public isn't allowed to own firearms, yet mass murder still happen with knives and hammers.
Or, a person set on an evil path will surely accomplish evil, if unopposed.
Do guns make it easier to commit good or evil acts? Sure they do!
But it ALSO makes it easier for my 120 pound wife to defend herself from a physically stronger male attacker. Without the gun, she wouldn't stand a chance.
Carl N. Brown
January 4, 2013, 06:54 PM
The Roman Empire did not have guns.
Rwanda, the massacre of the Tutsis by the Hutus in 1994, the only guns were in the hands of the Hutu army: "Most of the victims were killed in their own villages or in towns, often by their neighbors and fellow villagers. The militia typically murdered victims by machetes, although some army units used rifles. The Hutu gangs searched out victims hiding in churches and school buildings, and massacred them. Local officials and government-sponsored radio incited ordinary citizens to kill their neighbors, and those (Hutus) who refused to kill (Tutsis) were often murdered on the spot. "Either you took part in the massacres or you were massacred yourself."["
Rwanda, the massacre of the Tutsis by the Hutus in 1994, the only guns were in the hands of the Hutu army: "Most of the victims were killed in their own villages or in towns, often by their neighbors and fellow villagers. The militia typically murdered victims by machetes, although some army units used rifles. The Hutu gangs searched out victims hiding in churches and school buildings, and massacred them. Local officials and government-sponsored radio incited ordinary citizens to kill their neighbors, and those (Hutus) who refused to kill (Tutsis) were often murdered on the spot. "Either you took part in the massacres or you were massacred yourself."["
beatledog7
January 4, 2013, 07:06 PM
We will never see a world without guns. Even if a worldwide ban of civilian ownership "succeeded," LEOs and soldiers would have guns, which means criminals would find ways to steal them.
We will never see a world without guns, just a world in which the disarmed are tyrannized by those who still have them.
We will never see a world without guns, just a world in which the disarmed are tyrannized by those who still have them.
Al Thompson
January 4, 2013, 08:24 PM
Even better:
http://www.corneredcat.com/article/ethical-questions/why-the-gun-is-civilization/
;)
http://www.corneredcat.com/article/ethical-questions/why-the-gun-is-civilization/
;)
ball3006
January 4, 2013, 09:44 PM
A world without guns would be a pretty boring place. I guess we would have to just collect wimmin' instead......chris3
Coop45
January 4, 2013, 10:06 PM
ball3006, you must have a big safe!!
caribou
January 5, 2013, 06:02 AM
No guns??
I'm fair to middlin' sure that you would wear one of these, at least where I live they did untill the beginning of the 20th C. Same in Europe with chain mail I belive....
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g71/edwardhailstone/indianer47_zps2cfeb1bc.jpg
When these guys came to kill you , take yer stuff and what ever family they could capture......
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g71/edwardhailstone/alaska7_zpsee0b2d9b.jpg
Only you and Kin could keep harm at bay, and in Eskimo tales, the "Hero" is almost always an orphan who overcomes all odds and wins the day over his advesaries, from guys like Attangara, the last ruler of Point Hope Alaska pictured here top left.
As a Youth, he was unbeatable in all forms of sport........he started out with Spear and lance, knife and harpoon, ended up with a gun and took Natures course........
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g71/edwardhailstone/Attangarra2_zps6696b283.jpg
Looks like the guy to his right dosent really want to be near him.
Charles Brower wrote extensivly about him in his book 50 years below Zero, as wll hes still famouse in lore and blood in Point Hope and the Kotzebue Sound. Brower caught him in a storm shed and put a pistol to his face, and Attangara respected him greatly for doing such and deemd him worth of being the only White he would trade with. Since he controlled all trade in Point Hope, Brower and Attangarra got rich on the sales of "Whale bone" Baleen, getting 16$ a pound back in the 1880's, a consitterable sum back then. A Bowhead whale could give up a 1/2 ton or more. 10 or more whales were Caught every year at Point Hope to feed the village, the dogs that pulled them as welll as lighted and warmed their homes in Arctic Winter.
As well, Attangara also took Brower Spring Whaleing, where he and Brower worn No Western garments, and the lances were tipped in stone, not a nail in the boat or anything not hand made. His Shaman told him he would catch 3 whales and he did.Spring Whaling in the ice leads before the Whaling ships showed up was the idea, and then the trade baleen for good, and the goods at the Eskimo Trade Fairs that came later, at Point Hope and in Kotzebue Sound at Sisoulik, after the Whaleing Feast, and the ice went out he made $ and goods hand over fist.
This guy , as a youth he fought in some notable combats and bested two men at one time at a gathering, leaving both gutted and suffering in Death. Later he learned to speak yankee whaler while working on a ship, but found that forming his own Crew would be much more profitable and took his earning (tools, guns, ammo were the pay, not $) formed his own Whaling crew and got to work exploiting a Huge market of goods that were very desirable and traded among them in the late 1860-70's .
Later in life by the 1880's he had grown rich and powerfull ,controlling all trade in Point Hope between the residents and the Whalers. He ultimatly becomeing a tyrant with his own personal grave yard, Eskimo style, high above the ground on a stand of whale bone and wood ,coffins and wrapped corps's of the men he had killed himself and kept in Death.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g71/edwardhailstone/000CANB4WWJ_zpsacf76da9.jpg
We wanna all have guns or no one have guns, theres just NO letting a select few have them, ever.
I'm fair to middlin' sure that you would wear one of these, at least where I live they did untill the beginning of the 20th C. Same in Europe with chain mail I belive....
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g71/edwardhailstone/indianer47_zps2cfeb1bc.jpg
When these guys came to kill you , take yer stuff and what ever family they could capture......
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g71/edwardhailstone/alaska7_zpsee0b2d9b.jpg
Only you and Kin could keep harm at bay, and in Eskimo tales, the "Hero" is almost always an orphan who overcomes all odds and wins the day over his advesaries, from guys like Attangara, the last ruler of Point Hope Alaska pictured here top left.
As a Youth, he was unbeatable in all forms of sport........he started out with Spear and lance, knife and harpoon, ended up with a gun and took Natures course........
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g71/edwardhailstone/Attangarra2_zps6696b283.jpg
Looks like the guy to his right dosent really want to be near him.
Charles Brower wrote extensivly about him in his book 50 years below Zero, as wll hes still famouse in lore and blood in Point Hope and the Kotzebue Sound. Brower caught him in a storm shed and put a pistol to his face, and Attangara respected him greatly for doing such and deemd him worth of being the only White he would trade with. Since he controlled all trade in Point Hope, Brower and Attangarra got rich on the sales of "Whale bone" Baleen, getting 16$ a pound back in the 1880's, a consitterable sum back then. A Bowhead whale could give up a 1/2 ton or more. 10 or more whales were Caught every year at Point Hope to feed the village, the dogs that pulled them as welll as lighted and warmed their homes in Arctic Winter.
As well, Attangara also took Brower Spring Whaleing, where he and Brower worn No Western garments, and the lances were tipped in stone, not a nail in the boat or anything not hand made. His Shaman told him he would catch 3 whales and he did.Spring Whaling in the ice leads before the Whaling ships showed up was the idea, and then the trade baleen for good, and the goods at the Eskimo Trade Fairs that came later, at Point Hope and in Kotzebue Sound at Sisoulik, after the Whaleing Feast, and the ice went out he made $ and goods hand over fist.
This guy , as a youth he fought in some notable combats and bested two men at one time at a gathering, leaving both gutted and suffering in Death. Later he learned to speak yankee whaler while working on a ship, but found that forming his own Crew would be much more profitable and took his earning (tools, guns, ammo were the pay, not $) formed his own Whaling crew and got to work exploiting a Huge market of goods that were very desirable and traded among them in the late 1860-70's .
Later in life by the 1880's he had grown rich and powerfull ,controlling all trade in Point Hope between the residents and the Whalers. He ultimatly becomeing a tyrant with his own personal grave yard, Eskimo style, high above the ground on a stand of whale bone and wood ,coffins and wrapped corps's of the men he had killed himself and kept in Death.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g71/edwardhailstone/000CANB4WWJ_zpsacf76da9.jpg
We wanna all have guns or no one have guns, theres just NO letting a select few have them, ever.
Batty67
January 5, 2013, 10:24 AM
I think it is clear that if there was a world without guns, if that could somehow happen, that suicides would diminish (over half of fatalities with a gun are suicide, mostly men of course) as would "mass" murders. I don't think you can really argue that.
But that is not the point! The Consitution specifically allows citizens the right to keep and bear arms. That was not an accident, nor can it be taken away by a righteously concerned subgroup of people.
But that is not the point! The Consitution specifically allows citizens the right to keep and bear arms. That was not an accident, nor can it be taken away by a righteously concerned subgroup of people.
vamo
January 5, 2013, 10:47 AM
think it is clear that if there was a world without guns, if that could somehow happen, that suicides would diminish (over half of fatalities with a gun are suicide, mostly men of course)
What in the world makes you think no guns= less suicides. People who want to kill themselves can just OD on sleeping pills or do literally any other method. Suicides get lumped in with the gun death's stats that anti's love to quote, but the US doesn't have any more suicides than a lot of other industrial countries and has a much higher rate of gun ownership.
What in the world makes you think no guns= less suicides. People who want to kill themselves can just OD on sleeping pills or do literally any other method. Suicides get lumped in with the gun death's stats that anti's love to quote, but the US doesn't have any more suicides than a lot of other industrial countries and has a much higher rate of gun ownership.
hso
January 5, 2013, 10:56 AM
If you want to argue about brutality wrt to the presence of firearms you should look at Table 1a showing the rates of violent crime in Europe that was published by the UK Home Office (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/hosb0212/hosb0212-tabs?view=Binary). In the UK where firearms are nearly inaccessible the violent crime (and homicide) rate is higher than in some European nations that permit firearms ownership (including Germany, France, Sweden, Austria, Italy, Denmark, etc.). The absence of firearms doesn't make the UK a safer place to live compared to those countries connected by the Chunnel that permit their citizens to own firearms (some even that we can't have).
Carl N. Brown
January 5, 2013, 11:02 AM
Some of us have more interest in guns than just as weapons. The history of arms, the different designs and implementations of theories of operation, and skill required to hit a mark at distance, are more interest to many than having a tool for defense. Collection as curio or keepsake is legally recognized in Tennessee, and the ATF Curio and Relic list recognizes some firearms have more value as collector's items than as weapons.
ball3006
January 5, 2013, 11:34 AM
Ditto what Carl N says...........................chris3
Trent
January 5, 2013, 12:28 PM
Some of us have more interest in guns than just as weapons. The history of arms, the different designs and implementations of theories of operation, and skill required to hit a mark at distance, are more interest to many than having a tool for defense. Collection as curio or keepsake is legally recognized in Tennessee, and the ATF Curio and Relic list recognizes some firearms have more value as collector's items than as weapons.
Too bad we're not allowed to own all of the weapons ... er, non-weapons on the list.
I'd sure like a Nebelwerfer. :)
Too bad we're not allowed to own all of the weapons ... er, non-weapons on the list.
I'd sure like a Nebelwerfer. :)
Batty67
January 5, 2013, 12:31 PM
Are you telling me that if the U.S. became "magically" empty of guns suicide rates would not drop a bit? I think they would definitely lower appreciabely. I think the proportion of "unsuccessful" suicides would also rise sharply. But this is all a moot point anyway...
Trent
January 5, 2013, 01:51 PM
Batty67;
No, the suicides wouldn't drop off one bit.
First, females typically use "cleaner" methods; pills, razor blades to wrists in tubs filled with water, etc. The reason for this has been of much debate, but the general consensus is they don't want to "leave a mess" for people to clean up.
Males are the ones who typically use firearms. In the absence of firearms men will choose other methods; parked car running in a closed garage, hanging, jumping off of a bridge, crashing their vehicles high speed in to a wall, and so on. There were two bridge jumpers in our local little community (32k residents) within the last few years; 100 foot fall on to the parking lot of the boat dock below, makes quite a mess for people to clean up.
I've had two suicides in my family - both firearms - but I know that given the lack of firearms both of those individuals would have chosen a replacement instrument.
In my father's case, the family removed ALL firearms from the house the month prior to his suicide. But people missed the 45 caliber cap & ball muzzleloader (a non-firearm, by legal definition) hanging by a plaque on the bedroom wall.
I own this non-firearm he shot himself with. The metal was etched deeply by his blood from sitting in evidence for years and years. His initials are etched in the trigger guard.
Had he not had the cap & ball gun, he certainly would have jumped off the bridge, or crashed his 69 mustang in to an overpass abutment, or ran his car in the garage with the doors closed, or plugged his welder in and took a bath with it.. there was no stopping him once he made the decision.
So as a person who has personally witnessed his own father shooting himself in the head, I can assure you that he would have found another way. There was no stopping him.
No, the suicides wouldn't drop off one bit.
First, females typically use "cleaner" methods; pills, razor blades to wrists in tubs filled with water, etc. The reason for this has been of much debate, but the general consensus is they don't want to "leave a mess" for people to clean up.
Males are the ones who typically use firearms. In the absence of firearms men will choose other methods; parked car running in a closed garage, hanging, jumping off of a bridge, crashing their vehicles high speed in to a wall, and so on. There were two bridge jumpers in our local little community (32k residents) within the last few years; 100 foot fall on to the parking lot of the boat dock below, makes quite a mess for people to clean up.
I've had two suicides in my family - both firearms - but I know that given the lack of firearms both of those individuals would have chosen a replacement instrument.
In my father's case, the family removed ALL firearms from the house the month prior to his suicide. But people missed the 45 caliber cap & ball muzzleloader (a non-firearm, by legal definition) hanging by a plaque on the bedroom wall.
I own this non-firearm he shot himself with. The metal was etched deeply by his blood from sitting in evidence for years and years. His initials are etched in the trigger guard.
Had he not had the cap & ball gun, he certainly would have jumped off the bridge, or crashed his 69 mustang in to an overpass abutment, or ran his car in the garage with the doors closed, or plugged his welder in and took a bath with it.. there was no stopping him once he made the decision.
So as a person who has personally witnessed his own father shooting himself in the head, I can assure you that he would have found another way. There was no stopping him.
caribou
January 6, 2013, 07:15 AM
Unfortunatly I live in one of the highest suicide rated areas on Earth, Northwest Alaska....... Eskimo philosiphy of "start'n over" I dont agree with, and nearly 100% of them owns a gun, 90% hang them selfs.
hso
January 6, 2013, 08:40 AM
Batty67,
International suicide rates show that firearms aren't affecting suicide rates. Higher rates than ours where firearms ownership or access is far more limited can be seen over and over again. The means may be different, but the rates of suicides can be much higher.
International suicide rates show that firearms aren't affecting suicide rates. Higher rates than ours where firearms ownership or access is far more limited can be seen over and over again. The means may be different, but the rates of suicides can be much higher.
Gun Geezer
January 6, 2013, 11:23 AM
I think it is clear that if there was a world without guns, if that could somehow happen, that suicides would diminish (over half of fatalities with a gun are suicide, mostly men of course) as would "mass" murders. I don't think you can really argue that.
That is a very uninformed set of statements right there.
That is a very uninformed set of statements right there.
Onmilo
January 6, 2013, 11:56 AM
http://www.fototime.com/29F2936DF43FE10/standard.jpg
Justin
January 6, 2013, 05:46 PM
Are you telling me that if the U.S. became "magically" empty of guns suicide rates would not drop a bit? I think they would definitely lower appreciabely. I think the proportion of "unsuccessful" suicides would also rise sharply. But this is all a moot point anyway...
As a data point for consideration, Japan has almost no legal gun ownership at all, yet they've got some of the highest rates of suicide on the entire planet.
People who are intent on killing themselves will find a way to accomplish their goal. If not with a gun, then with prescription drugs, poison, jumping from high places, etc.
As a data point for consideration, Japan has almost no legal gun ownership at all, yet they've got some of the highest rates of suicide on the entire planet.
People who are intent on killing themselves will find a way to accomplish their goal. If not with a gun, then with prescription drugs, poison, jumping from high places, etc.
Batty67
January 6, 2013, 06:18 PM
Deleted by Batty67
Batty67
January 6, 2013, 06:20 PM
Yes, people who truly want to commit suicide will find a way.
browneu
January 6, 2013, 07:05 PM
As a data point for consideration, Japan has almost no legal gun ownership at all, yet they've got some of the highest rates of suicide on the entire planet.
People who are intent on killing themselves will find a way to accomplish their goal. If not with a gun, then with prescription drugs, poison, jumping from high places, etc.
That's right.
Better yet answer this. People still attempt and succeed in suicide while in prison. A place where the only legal firearms are in the hands of law enforcement.
Like other violent acts people will find a way.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
People who are intent on killing themselves will find a way to accomplish their goal. If not with a gun, then with prescription drugs, poison, jumping from high places, etc.
That's right.
Better yet answer this. People still attempt and succeed in suicide while in prison. A place where the only legal firearms are in the hands of law enforcement.
Like other violent acts people will find a way.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
Trent
January 6, 2013, 07:54 PM
Batty;
Having lost three family members to either firearms accident or self-inflicted injury, I could have decided to take my life a different direction and been anti-gun.
Instead I'm a gun advocate.
Why?
It's a frigging tool. In the absence of one tool, a substitute will be found.
Doubt me? How many times have you been faced with a task but lacked the tool that would complete the job in the most efficient manner? Yet, you "got by" with the wrong tool, through ingenuity or brute force. (A recent plumbing accident on Easter Sunday, in my bathroom with a brad nailer, comes to mind. I shot a brad nail through a water pipe in my bathroom while putting up baseboard trim, and made a glorious mess of thing; I tore out the wall with a screwdriver and repaired the leak temporarily until a plumber could get to us, with a hose clamp and a chunk of inner tube I cut off my child's bicycle.)
Guns are efficient at what they do. A few pounds of force with your finger puts a metal projectile out at the speed of sound (giver or take).
If I wanted to take my own life or kill someone, lacking firearms, I have *no shortage* of devices to do it with.
Heck, I've probably learned over 500 ways to kill someone this year alone just watching NCIS and other whodunnit shows.
Americans are very efficient, very ingenious, very sophisticated killers.
Given the options, I'll take a gun as my defense any day of the week.
I wouldn't bring a brad nailer to a gunfight. I'd take a gun. Preferably one that's big and holds lots and lots of ammo.
Having lost three family members to either firearms accident or self-inflicted injury, I could have decided to take my life a different direction and been anti-gun.
Instead I'm a gun advocate.
Why?
It's a frigging tool. In the absence of one tool, a substitute will be found.
Doubt me? How many times have you been faced with a task but lacked the tool that would complete the job in the most efficient manner? Yet, you "got by" with the wrong tool, through ingenuity or brute force. (A recent plumbing accident on Easter Sunday, in my bathroom with a brad nailer, comes to mind. I shot a brad nail through a water pipe in my bathroom while putting up baseboard trim, and made a glorious mess of thing; I tore out the wall with a screwdriver and repaired the leak temporarily until a plumber could get to us, with a hose clamp and a chunk of inner tube I cut off my child's bicycle.)
Guns are efficient at what they do. A few pounds of force with your finger puts a metal projectile out at the speed of sound (giver or take).
If I wanted to take my own life or kill someone, lacking firearms, I have *no shortage* of devices to do it with.
Heck, I've probably learned over 500 ways to kill someone this year alone just watching NCIS and other whodunnit shows.
Americans are very efficient, very ingenious, very sophisticated killers.
Given the options, I'll take a gun as my defense any day of the week.
I wouldn't bring a brad nailer to a gunfight. I'd take a gun. Preferably one that's big and holds lots and lots of ammo.
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