FMJ's for carry/defense anyone ?


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okc-zee
January 5, 2013, 12:45 PM
Lately at the range I've run into quite a few people who are using FMJ's for their carry/defense weapons...I guess price and availability of some stuff can be a factor here...aside from over penetration,I guess it's just as effective as anything else and a lot cheaper as well...I do this in my 380 LCP,but all my other carry/defense weapons have JHP's as a rule...Any thoughts on this ? I'm sure I can stand to learn something here...

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gun addict
January 5, 2013, 12:48 PM
if fmj is just as effective as jhp and softpoints all the police departments would carry them instead. JHP's expension are very much an advantage over FMJ's rounds especially in rounds such as the 9mm

however in small pistol calibers such as the 380 fmj might be a decent idea due to the fact that most JHP or Softpoint may not reach the 12 inch penetration recommended by the FBI but FMJ 380s might

JEB
January 5, 2013, 12:54 PM
all of my defense guns are loaded with JHP exclusively. my LCP however, is loaded with FMJ simply because i do not reload that caliber yet.

if fmj is just as effective as jhp and softpoints all the police departments would carry them instead. JHP's expension are very much an advantage over FMJ's rounds especially in rounds such as the 9mm

^ this

wow6599
January 5, 2013, 01:08 PM
FMJ for .380 and .45 ACP.

Ehtereon11B
January 5, 2013, 02:00 PM
The only weapon I consider carrying FMJ in is my pocket .380 namely because it is picky (stovepipes) with HP and JHP. The only self defense ammo I have found it really likes is Cor-bon Pow R ball.

springer99
January 5, 2013, 03:05 PM
IMHO, for 380, 9X18 or 32ACP I'd lean towards using FMJ. Anything above that, JHP's definately get my nod. Of course in some areas, NJ for instance, you don't have a choice. HP's of any type are banned for anyone other than police for use outside the home, except when at an approved shooting range. Self defense with HP's for private citizens is a big no-no.

481
January 5, 2013, 03:22 PM
FMJs tend to slip through tissue with little damage and penetrate deeply (as you already noted).

This thread may be of interest to you since it explores the behavior of FMJs-

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=691982

JHPs (if they expand) tend to damage more tissue and are more likely to stop within the body of an attacker if placed COM making them much more preferable for the task. The .380 (and smaller calibers) is a notable exception being better suited to FMJs since expansion of a JHP can limit penetration to an unacceptable amount depending upon the user's specific needs.

R.W.Dale
January 5, 2013, 03:27 PM
If the jhp loads avalible cannot make 11" reliability in calibrated gel I use fmj. This pretty much means 380 down including 38 IMO but it has cast lead to fall back on.

Contrary to much of the ammunition hype these days adequate penatration is vastly more important than expansion.

Ammunition must be reliable

Only hits in the right places matter


And only then when those hits go deep enough to hit the important parts.

Making a bigger hole ranks behind these three criteria




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about

beatledog7
January 5, 2013, 04:34 PM
I carry a .380 sometimes, and it's loaded with 90- or 100-grain FMJ to achieve penetration.

In my .38SPL it's 125-grain JHPs.

In .40cal it's 165- or 180-grain JHPs.

In 9mm it'd be 124-grain JHPs if I carried a 9mm.

In .45ACP it's 230-grain FMJ, again to assure penetration, but if I load it as the house gun it's 230-JHPs.

For .357MAG I carry 158- or 180-grain JHPs.

For .44MAG it's 240-grain JHPs, though I just acquired some 180-grain JHPs I'm going to audition.

The Lone Haranguer
January 5, 2013, 05:11 PM
Lately at the range I've run into quite a few people who are using FMJ's for their carry/defense weapons...
You're sure this isn't just their range/practice ammo? Maybe they're using the cheaper ammo for practice but actually carry JHPs.

Skylerbone
January 5, 2013, 05:39 PM
Really depends on what you're protecting yourself from. For woods carry in bear country the answer could be far different but JHP in 9mm and .45ACP are what I choose.

gamestalker
January 5, 2013, 06:38 PM
I carry JHP's only. And as for over penetration, FMJ are far more prone to this than JHP's. This is because they aren't designed to expand in the wound cavity like a JHP, this allows them to pass thorugh.

Being a reloader I often find FMJ bullets to be typically more expensive than JHP's. Although, Gold Dots are a bit spendy, Nosler, Winchester, and XTP JHP's are actually pretty economical in price for reloading, I don't know about factory prices though.

GS

BSA1
January 5, 2013, 07:08 PM
Some shooters argue bullet placement is everything.

Some shooters like deep penetration as the shots may be made at a angle, through cover or material such as glass, or heavy clothing.

Some shooters realize that velocities from test barrels are higher than with real world guns.

Some shooters realize JHP cavities plug up and are really just FMJ only at a higher cost.

Fire_Moose
January 5, 2013, 11:16 PM
I've got my mags loaded about 40/60. JHP on top with fmj on bottom, figure if I get through the JHP, I may need to go thru barriers.

okc-zee
January 6, 2013, 04:58 AM
You're sure this isn't just their range/practice ammo? Maybe they're using the cheaper ammo for practice but actually carry JHPs.

No sir...They made it quite clear ...They use FMJ's for defense as well as practice...Husband and wife team there said they no longer saw the purpose to spend the money on different types of their preferred carry ammo which at times was not available...(these two are long time shooters)...I was a little surprised at how many people there actually agreed and said they did the same in their larger caliber (9mm and up) guns for the same reasons...

Snowdog
January 6, 2013, 05:16 AM
I'm pretty much aping the consensus here, but I also use FMJ only in 9x18 and .32acp (Polish P64 and Keltec P32). IMO, JHPs are the cat's meow in the more serious cartridges.

Snowdog
January 6, 2013, 06:39 AM
I'm pretty much aping the consensus here, but I also use FMJ only in 9x18 and .32acp (Polish P64 and Keltec P32). IMO, JHPs are the cat's meow in the more serious cartridges.

Cooldill
January 6, 2013, 07:00 AM
Carrying FMJs is sometimes not a bad idea in lighter calibers such as .32 ACPs, .380s, .22s and .25s. The reason being is those rounds may not have the energy to reliably expand AND still penetrate the minimum to get the job done. Many would rather have something that can reach the vitals rather than something that will expand but lose penetration to get to them at all.

However in the standard service calibers today I don't see much of a reason to carry FMJ. Bullet technology has improved a lot. It's not 1970. There are many .45 ACPs and 9mms that will reliably expand and meet at least the 12" minimum FBI penetration requirement.

Those who are carrying FMJ because it's all they could find or afford, really should have planned better. I keep a sizeable stock of premium JHPs for all of my handguns. I usually buy a few boxes, run a couple to make sure they work in my gun, and save the other couple boxes for a rainy day or carry.

ChCx2744
January 6, 2013, 08:07 AM
In terms of damage, JHP and SP rounds are going to be more effective, in terms of damaging the target. The only situation I could think of when using FMJ in a defensive role would be due to reliability reasons. My buddy owns an AMT 1911 and I used to own a Commander-sized Colt 1911. Both of these guns had issues with several types of JHPs, specifically the heavier grained bullets; they would, however, function just fine with FMJs. I would have rather carried the FMJs instead of resorting to having to remove metal (I.E. polishing the feed ramps, the base of the ramps or the contact point under the bevel on the roof of the chamber).

GLI45
January 6, 2013, 11:37 AM
I have two carry pistols, both 1911s (one officer in 9mm and one commander in .45 ACP) and only use JHP. My wife carries a .380 (Sig P238) and also uses JHP. I was a little concerned about the .380, but ammunition has come a long way. After a great deal of online research I settled on Hornady Critical Defense for her Sig. I was so impressed with the performance I switched to Hornady CD for my pistols. They feed great, have excellent expansion, and very good penetration. And for those concerned about clogging of the JHP cavity, Hornady seems to have the answer with plastic plug in the cavity that prevents clogging and doesn't impede expansion.

Check out the ballistics tests from tnoutdoors9 on YouTube.

gp911
January 6, 2013, 02:05 PM
I carry FMJ in my .380 but plan on function-testing some of the Buffalo Bore standard pressure hardcast SWC ammo in it eventually. I don't carry that gun much, so it's low on the priority list for now. My backup magazine for my .45ACP has FMJ in it but the primary mag is always JHPs. The .40 is always JHPs. The .45LC is always wadcutters of some sort.

sota
January 6, 2013, 03:13 PM
IMHO, for 380, 9X18 or 32ACP I'd lean towards using FMJ. Anything above that, JHP's definately get my nod. Of course in some areas, NJ for instance, you don't have a choice. HP's of any type are banned for anyone other than police for use outside the home, except when at an approved shooting range. Self defense with HP's for private citizens is a big no-no.

I have to call shenanigans on this.
there is nothing in the statutes that explicitly or implicitly indicates that use of HP rounds in a self-defense situation is illegal.
You are legally allowed to possess such ammunition.
You are legally allowed to transport it from a place of purchase.
You are legally allowed to transport it between residences and firing ranges.
You are legally allowed to use said ammunition at a range.

If you can find or have knowledge of a case where an individual was convicted after a S.D. shooting SOLELY because of their using HP ammunition I'd very much like to read into it.

springer99
January 6, 2013, 04:12 PM
I have to call shenanigans on this.
there is nothing in the statutes that explicitly or implicitly indicates that use of HP rounds in a self-defense situation is illegal.
You are legally allowed to possess such ammunition.
You are legally allowed to transport it from a place of purchase.
You are legally allowed to transport it between residences and firing ranges.
You are legally allowed to use said ammunition at a range.

If you can find or have knowledge of a case where an individual was convicted after a S.D. shooting SOLELY because of their using HP ammunition I'd very much like to read into it.
My bad, sota, I should have clarified that last statement as "self-defense outside of your own home". I do understand that it is legal to buy, and use at an approved range, but that's about it.

According to police in our local Pa. department, even they must remove their approved HP ammo when traveling thru NJ or attending training there. Maybe just prudence on their part, but it's what they do.

Weevil
January 6, 2013, 06:08 PM
9mm and up HPs and even in 9mm I prefer a +P with HPs.

.380 I use flatpoint FMJ for carry.

.32 I only use regular FMJ "ball ammo" not only for better penetration but also because of the potential rimlock issues with HPs or flatpoints.

sota
January 6, 2013, 07:05 PM
My bad, sota, I should have clarified that last statement as "self-defense outside of your own home". I do understand that it is legal to buy, and use at an approved range, but that's about it.

According to police in our local Pa. department, even they must remove their approved HP ammo when traveling thru NJ or attending training there. Maybe just prudence on their part, but it's what they do.

given the fact that NJ is a "shall issue" state (which in real terms means, never issues unless you're sucking something on someone in power) there really is no legal option to use a firearm in self-defense outside of your home. that's not to say I don't know of certain aquaintences who do carry every day regardless. but if they were involved in a SD shootout they're already so far up the legal flag pole at that point the issue if FMJ vs. JHP doesn't make much of a difference. :)

as for PA boys being told to unload HP's when traveling through NJ, that might just be a prudence thing, since there's a few nothern badges that will arrest anyone for anything.

sota
January 6, 2013, 07:07 PM
oh and for completeness, my SD round of choice is P9HST1. it has excellent performance characteristics, and AE9AP is a ballistic and feel match to it for extended plinking use.

FireInCairo
January 6, 2013, 07:09 PM
FMJ's will penetrate far deeper than a hollow point. This can be either really good or really bad depending on where you hit a target. If you miss center mass and hit them in a place where it's just a bit of soft tissue, like say the upper arm and you miss the bone, the bullet will go through and potentially hit someone unintended. Additionally, the person you just shot just got a lot madder at you.

But, if you hit center mass with a FMJ, I do believe it would be like driving a stake straight through whatever vital organs are in the way, and even back out the other side of them. This would probably be devastating and be very effective in stopping the bg quickly.

Rob1109
January 6, 2013, 07:10 PM
Ditto on the .45 and .380

481
January 6, 2013, 07:35 PM
FMJ's will penetrate far deeper than a hollow point. This can be either really good or really bad depending on where you hit a target. If you miss center mass and hit them in a place where it's just a bit of soft tissue, like say the upper arm and you miss the bone, the bullet will go through and potentially hit someone unintended. Additionally, the person you just shot just got a lot madder at you.

But, if you hit center mass with a FMJ, I do believe it would be like driving a stake straight through whatever vital organs are in the way, and even back out the other side of them. This would probably be devastating and be very effective in stopping the bg quickly.

All depends on what the FMJ hits in the COM- heart/major blood vessel, spinal cord will bring a quick end to hostilities but are small targets and have a low probability of being hit.

erikk8829
January 6, 2013, 07:44 PM
All my carry 45's have a JHP in the pipe and FMJ in the mags

Jenrick
January 6, 2013, 08:35 PM
Plenty of folks have been put in the ground using FMJ in a variety of calibers. I prefer a good JHP, but if the only way a gun I like will run is using FMJ's then so be it.

-Jenrick

Aceoky
January 6, 2013, 10:33 PM
I wonder with so many bg today doing meth etc. if stopping the bg threat is any harder than it used to be. True we have much better bullets to use so I imagine it would be hard to tell for sure?

I have one mag Win Bonded HP 230 grain supreme elite and one mag with 230 grain hardball, I feel that would do for most situations I might encounter.

xjsnake
January 6, 2013, 10:45 PM
Like others have said. In my .380 or smaller. Don't have a .45 so no opinion there.

sinbad339
January 6, 2013, 11:29 PM
Lately I've been carrying a commander length 1911 (Sig Fastback Carry) with Golden Saber 230gr JHP. But, given the velocity of that round, I wonder how much expansion to expect, and if FMJ wouldn't be just as effective. Just my $0.02.

easyg
January 7, 2013, 01:15 AM
I can't see any good reason to carry FMJ in a handgun.

sean326
January 7, 2013, 07:25 AM
I alternate, JHP and hard cast, I like the idea of expansion and some penetration.Check out buffalo big boar website the guy makes super high performance ammo and has a lot of great info. His ammo aced the NRA side by side study about a year ago showing the characteristics of a huge variety of ammo. It was very interesting.

I've been carrying and shooting for 30 years and I know there is always the hot round that everyone talks about. I remember everyone carrying BAT round, then glazers, Teflon, corbon etc... It's cool that there is so much research and innovation in the industry that the technology constantly evolves.

mdauben
January 7, 2013, 11:16 AM
I use JHP explisivly in my SD guns (note: I don't own a .380, .32 or .25 auto. If I did I'd probably make an excertion and use FMJ for those calibers). I see some people using mixed FMJ/JHP loads, but they never made any sense to me. Likewise some people are using FMJ in their .45 autos. While the .45 FMJ is probably better than the 9mm or .40 FMJ, based on the preponderance of evidence I have seen (both real life and gel testing) indicates that JHP is still superior to FMJ even in the .45 so I see no reason to use a less effective round just because it doesn't totally suck.

For what its worth, my current choices are:


9mm - 124gr JHP +P (Federal HST or Speer Gold Dot)
.357mag - 125gr JHP (Hornady FTX or Federal Personal Defence)
.45 ACP - 230gr JHP (Federal HST or Speer Gold Dot)

Voodoochile
January 7, 2013, 11:49 AM
My wife uses the cheap Remington Green Box JHPs for her M1991A1 .45 because they are cheap, reliable in function & they do have the same shooting characteristics of the Remington FMJ target ammo we use as in POI/POA & chronoed ballistics.

Me since I don't carry use just the target Remington FMJ that we use for parctice in my antique M1911A1 for HD.

hwmoore
January 8, 2013, 03:18 AM
Of the guns I own ,about the only thing I wouldn't use hollow points in is a 22. I use Hornady critical defense or zombie max in what ever I carry but I do have several mags of federal 155 and 180 hydro shocks

Fire_Moose
January 8, 2013, 05:06 AM
Of the guns I own ,about the only thing I wouldn't use hollow points in is a 22. I use Hornady critical defense or zombie max in what ever I carry but I do have several mags of federal 155 and 180 hydro shocks


/grabs popcorn



Sent from my SCH-R720 using Tapatalk 2

meanmrmustard
January 8, 2013, 06:18 AM
/grabs popcorn



Sent from my SCH-R720 using Tapatalk 2
You are aware that CD and Zombie Max are the same, right?

R.W.Dale
January 8, 2013, 12:34 PM
You are aware that CD and Zombie Max are the same, right?

You and I know that but pointing that out in a courtroom might be pure entertainment




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about

hwmoore
January 9, 2013, 01:18 AM
not they are not the same one comes in a little nifty box kinda like a pet rock and has a special zombie green tip penetrator especially designed to kill zombies don't you know nothing LOL

jp0319
January 9, 2013, 09:22 AM
I have the same issue with my .380 and JHP ammo. It doesn't feed well so I carry FMJ in that. if I were forced to carry FMJ due to law the only caliber I would use is .45 but as it stands I use JHP for all the reasons noted before me.

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 9, 2013, 07:28 PM
Only reason I can see for carrying FMJ is if your gun does not like JHP at all. If it sorta likes JHP but not really then get a new gun. I carry JHP in my guns with confidence because I haven't had issues with JHP.

browningguy
January 9, 2013, 07:30 PM
In general, I would say that anyone that thinks FMJ is just as effective as HP just doesn't want to know.

meanmrmustard
January 9, 2013, 07:42 PM
You and I know that but pointing that out in a courtroom might be pure entertainment




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about
That's my attorneys job, not mine. He's well aware of the difference, so I'm not confronted nor worried.

Skylerbone
January 9, 2013, 08:01 PM
"My client has a sick sense of humor and chose Zombie Max ammo for fun. Now about that dead guy..."

pa350z
January 10, 2013, 05:55 PM
Well, if the US military can use FMJ hand gun ammo in theatre, its good enough for me. In PA, with my G27, I use Federal Hydrashoks. When doing business up in CT and traveling through the PRNJ and the PRNY under Federal protection, I simply use my WWB FMJ ammo. Don't want to get stopped in PRNJ and have to explain and then end up in the back of a cruiser car. All IMHO.

meanmrmustard
January 10, 2013, 06:07 PM
"My client has a sick sense of humor and chose Zombie Max ammo for fun. Now about that dead guy..."
He was struck with an expanding bullet that is designed to repel an attacker or intruder, in which case the dead guy was one of either or both. No where on the box does it state the attacker must ALREADY be dead prior to use, so the color of the tip or name on the box is a non issue, especially since it is made by a reputable and well established ammo manufacturer. End of story.

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 10, 2013, 06:29 PM
Well, if the US military can use FMJ hand gun ammo in theatre,

It's not a matter of can use but a matter of that's all they can use.

R.W.Dale
January 10, 2013, 06:34 PM
He was struck with an expanding bullet that is designed to repel an attacker or intruder, in which case the dead guy was one of either or both. No where on the box does it state the attacker must ALREADY be dead prior to use, so the color of the tip or name on the box is a non issue, especially since it is made by a reputable and well established ammo manufacturer. End of story.

Ammunition that comes with a handy disclaimer (for the prosecution) RIGHT ON THE BOX where the manufacturer clearly states that this ammunition should NEVER be used on any living thing, vegetable or mineral.

Yes Z-max ammunition comes with a disclaimer saying its only for targets or things already dead. Have you actually taken time to read what's printed on the box?

In any endeavour where my attorney's job might entail keeping me from becoming incarcerated and thus being subject to suprise recital probings I will take every step to make his job easier that's practical.




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about

Russ Jackson
January 10, 2013, 06:37 PM
If you carry a 45 I doubt it really makes much difference. Plus FMJ feed very well so a stove pipe is very rare.

R.W.Dale
January 10, 2013, 06:41 PM
Disclaimer: HornadyŽ Zombie Max™ ammunition is NOT a toy (IT IS LIVE AMMUNITION), but is intended only to be used on…ZOMBIES, also known as the living dead, undead, etc. No human being, plant, animal, vegetable or mineral should ever be shot with HornadyŽ Zombie Max™ ammunition. Again, we repeat, HornadyŽ Zombie Max™ ammunition is for use on ZOMBIES ONLY, and that’s not a nickname, phrase or cute way of referring to anybody, place or thing. When we say Zombies, we mean…ZOMBIES!

Skylerbone
January 10, 2013, 07:33 PM
Easy R. W., he said "end of story". That means the prosecution must throw up its hands and quit! I would be concerned about the conclusions that could be drawn, didn't consider the "victim" a human being. In the mind of a juror that could be construed as sociopathic, even racist depending on how you are painted. A modicum of prudence can go a long way.

481
January 10, 2013, 07:38 PM
Fortunately, we have myriad options for SD ammo (although the shelves are bare in many locales) that allow us to not have to carry such novelty stuff so I'd have to pass on the HornadyŽ Zombie Max™ except perhaps for range fun.

I am all for not complicating unnecessarily the process of defending myself in a court of law before an already uninformed jury pool.

meanmrmustard
January 10, 2013, 09:12 PM
Easy R. W., he said "end of story". That means the prosecution must throw up its hands and quit! I would be concerned about the conclusions that could be drawn, didn't consider the "victim" a human being. In the mind of a juror that could be construed as sociopathic, even racist depending on how you are painted. A modicum of prudence can go a long way.
You're stretching here. To assume that anyone using the ammo for HD/SD is sociopathic is, Zombies on the box or cutesy green tips or not, leaning a bit left. Do you assume that because a box of hollow point ammo doesn't have "specifically for killing intruders" on the box, that it is incriminating to use it for that purpose? Also, since we are talking carry/defense...why am I not on the prosecuting end of this spectrum?

If its what I have on hand, I'll use it to protect my family. I'd worry more about explaining why a specific bullet was used based on its superior killing effect over another, than the name of the round itself.

meanmrmustard
January 10, 2013, 09:14 PM
Disclaimer: HornadyŽ Zombie Max™ ammunition is NOT a toy (IT IS LIVE AMMUNITION), but is intended only to be used on…ZOMBIES, also known as the living dead, undead, etc. No human being, plant, animal, vegetable or mineral should ever be shot with HornadyŽ Zombie Max™ ammunition. Again, we repeat, HornadyŽ Zombie Max™ ammunition is for use on ZOMBIES ONLY, and that’s not a nickname, phrase or cute way of referring to anybody, place or thing. When we say Zombies, we mean…ZOMBIES!
Zombies, as far as I know, do not exist. In which case your argument is invalid.

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 10, 2013, 09:27 PM
If you carry a 45 I doubt it really makes much difference. Plus FMJ feed very well so a stove pipe is very rare.

It actually makes a huge difference in the wound it creates. FMJ isn't less prone to stove piping than JHP. That's on ejection, not feeding.

Ammunition that comes with a handy disclaimer (for the prosecution) RIGHT ON THE BOX where the manufacturer clearly states that this ammunition should NEVER be used on any living thing, vegetable or mineral.

Don't most if not all gun manuals say not to point the gun at a person?

Skylerbone
January 11, 2013, 08:51 AM
but is intended only to be used on…ZOMBIES, also known as the living dead, undead, etc. No human being, plant, animal, vegetable or mineral should ever be shot with HornadyŽ Zombie Max™ ammunition. Again, we repeat, HornadyŽ Zombie Max™ ammunition is for use on ZOMBIES ONLY, and that’s not a nickname, phrase or cute way of referring to anybody

As pertinent to motive. You believed the person was a zombie, not human, less than human. Not saying it'll stick but tainted is tainted.

Ehtereon11B
January 11, 2013, 10:37 AM
The Z-max is ballistically identical to Hornady Critical Defense. Different packaging and polymer tip color. The Zombie disclaimer is a gimmick for novelty on a live ammo, not a legal CYA for Hornady.

Skylerbone
January 11, 2013, 11:09 AM
So Critical Defense was not chosen for its lack of "fun factor". Sadistic!

Only Hornady (or an independent expert) is at liberty to say whether the two lines of ammunition are ballistically identical. The prosecution won't be paying for their testimony so if you want that heard, guess who will be paying?

Remember that liberal judges are merely former liberal attorneys and many of them were prosecutors as well. Many of them could care less about the law, feeling anyone owning a firearm is fair game.

Aceoky
January 11, 2013, 11:18 AM
I "think" in the end at least in most states= what matters most is Did you have a legal right to shoot?

IF yes, then I seriously doubt caliber or projectile is going to matter you were defending your life or another's and that is "that".

IF no.......all bets are off you'll be charged and at that point I figure they'll do whatever they can to make you look "evil"

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 11, 2013, 01:07 PM
I see the Z-Max as pure novelty and I probably wouldn't even shoot it let alone load it in a defensive weapon. Why would you choose Z-Max over TAP? There is much less stigma with the latter and there is no worry over having your lawyer defend it.

mljdeckard
January 11, 2013, 01:18 PM
What is overpenetration? Do you not want to ensure that your shots do the most possible damage? Even if a magical round existed that will reliably stop someone and never exit a human target (which it doesn't,) what about the shots you miss? It still wouldn't negate rule #4.

We carry JHP ammo because when you are fighting for your life, you wany every possible advantage you can get. However, the real world advantage isn't nearly as great as some people seem to think it is. I think, you would have to look at the very bottom of the scale (say, 115 gr 9mm fmj) compared to the very top (230 gr .45 HST) to see a significant difference. Big JHPs don't magically disintegrate people, and if you hit someone with a little JHP it will most certainly ruin their day. I would use the exact same plan no matter which one I happened to be carrying, and 99 times out of 100, I doubt there would be any difference.

mdauben
January 11, 2013, 01:35 PM
If you carry a 45 I doubt it really makes much difference.
There is a bit of disagreement on details, but some studies show .45 JHP is as much as 50% more effective than FMJ. Perhaps the difference is not really so great, but I'll take any small advantage it may offer.

Plus FMJ feed very well so a stove pipe is very rare.

Any modern gun that won't reliably feed JHP should be returned to the manufacturer for serivce as it is obviously defective.

mljdeckard
January 11, 2013, 02:30 PM
However, when you use correct tactics, (multiple hits to the center of mass,) the difference between them falls very quickly.

bnolsen
January 11, 2013, 02:41 PM
For a while there I carried alternating rounds...one JHP, one FMJ intending them for double tap use. Not sure why I did that, just wanted to be fancy I guess.

jp0319
January 11, 2013, 03:05 PM
Well, if the US military can use FMJ hand gun ammo in theatre, its good enough for me. In PA, with my G27, I use Federal Hydrashoks. When doing business up in CT and traveling through the PRNJ and the PRNY under Federal protection, I simply use my WWB FMJ ammo. Don't want to get stopped in PRNJ and have to explain and then end up in the back of a cruiser car. All IMHO.

seriously? the military HAS to use FMJ. if we could use JHP we would, we're not allowed. Ask any guy who has shot a bad guy with FMJ if he would carry it if there were achoice.

Aceoky
January 11, 2013, 06:39 PM
When hollowpoints work they work great, they don't always expand. (filled with material etc.) A 9mm might expand a .45 will not shrink :cool:

meanmrmustard
January 11, 2013, 06:45 PM
So Critical Defense was not chosen for its lack of "fun factor". Sadistic!

Only Hornady (or an independent expert) is at liberty to say whether the two lines of ammunition are ballistically identical. The prosecution won't be paying for their testimony so if you want that heard, guess who will be paying?

Remember that liberal judges are merely former liberal attorneys and many of them were prosecutors as well. Many of them could care less about the law, feeling anyone owning a firearm is fair game.
Then said incident was doomed from the get go, regardless of ammo, if there is a stitch of fact to your assessment. If said liberal ex-lawyer-turned-judge is anti beforehand, my ammo choice is only one among many worries, if one at all.

If all I had on hand was Hornady U-Max: Only use on Unicorns! on hand to protect myself or my loved ones, you had better believe the BG(s) would be eating U Max bullets, even though I'm only supposed to use them for dispatching mythical horses cuz "the box says its for fictional creatures ONLY".

Don't use it: You have that right, to choose which ammo to defend yourself with.

Skylerbone
January 11, 2013, 08:33 PM
What I'm saying is that a DA who is anti-gun may care less about your innocence so why give him ammo (literally) to crucify you with. Everyone is free to use what they like but I don't recommend ZombieMax or Double Tap as what is implied is negative. A jury may not believe it took 7 rounds center mass to stop the attacker. They may believe a prosecutor who claims your "victim" would have survived if you weren't so intent on double tapping him...over and over and over. Sure you have the right to defend yourself but not to kill if it's avoidable. If he convinces a jury you used excessive force...

Defending yourself from prosecution is no trivial matter. I recall as a youngster thinking I would never see my father again after a shooting and he was a LEO. Wouldn't wish that on any legitimate armed Citizen.

meanmrmustard
January 11, 2013, 09:17 PM
Regardless of ammo, handguns are underpowered. There is no such thing as knockdown power, so the odds of a one shot threat ender are slim. If you shoot till the threat has ended, whether the BG is living or dead at threats end, do you not believe that your anti DA will say you grossly overused force?

Do you argue that you used what you had on hand and shot enough of it to stop a murder/robbery/rape of yourself or family...or do you contemplate your ammo choice or how many rounds to fire while the aforementioned things are happening, hoping the law sees things your way while they put your loved ones in the ground...

Not me. I'll take responsibility for my actions so long as my family goes on. I'll shoot what I got, when I have to.

YMMV.

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 12, 2013, 12:37 AM
If all I had on hand was Hornady U-Max: Only use on Unicorns! on hand to protect myself or my loved ones, you had better believe the BG(s) would be eating U Max bullets, even though I'm only supposed to use them for dispatching mythical horses cuz "the box says its for fictional creatures ONLY".


If that's all I had, then I did something completely wrong to run out of proper JHPs and promptly buy new ones ASAP.

Skylerbone
January 12, 2013, 01:19 AM
do you contemplate your ammo choice or how many rounds to fire while the aforementioned things are happening

Nope. I contemplate that well in advance. I realize handgun ammo is underpowered and will likely require several shots but a jury hooked on Hollywood may already believe without prompting that one shot knocks a man through a wall. That's why what you choose to carry can matter.

meanmrmustard
January 12, 2013, 06:09 AM
If that's all I had, then I did something completely wrong to run out of proper JHPs and promptly buy new ones ASAP.
Proper JHPs? Do tell, what exactly is proper? Do they make a special "wounding-only" HP?

meanmrmustard
January 12, 2013, 06:19 AM
Nope. I contemplate that well in advance. I realize handgun ammo is underpowered and will likely require several shots but a jury hooked on Hollywood may already believe without prompting that one shot knocks a man through a wall. That's why what you choose to carry can matter.
If this were so, wouldn't the jury choose to question why you carry ammunition design for trauma and tissue destruction (and possible hydrostatic shock) rather than the FMJ, which isn't ideal because they make a neat hole more often than not...making them a better "wounder"?

I see your point, I'm merely stating that in this day we are the persecuted regardless. If it makes you feel better, I have Winchester Ranger 147 gr 9mm on the way as we speak. But if I had a mag of Z Max ready to go, I'm using it. To me, that's better than an FMJ.

Skylerbone
January 12, 2013, 11:29 AM
Fair enough and agreed, better than FMJ. I carry HP to minimize the chance of pass through as there is always the potential for unintended targets given the range of ammunition.

meanmrmustard
January 12, 2013, 11:38 AM
Fair enough and agreed, better than FMJ. I carry HP to minimize the chance of pass through as there is always the potential for unintended targets given the range of ammunition.
Agreed as well. Lucky for us, we understand that reasoning.

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 12, 2013, 01:46 PM
Proper JHPs? Do tell, what exactly is proper? Do they make a special "wounding-only" HP?

Ones that aren't novelty. It's just silly to be using Z-Max. Please explain to me why it's a good idea over non novelty ammo.

meanmrmustard
January 12, 2013, 04:44 PM
Ones that aren't novelty. It's just silly to be using Z-Max. Please explain to me why it's a good idea over non novelty ammo.
Novelty? Are you going to stand in front of it? Are you going to laugh at the novelty of it if you were shot with it?

Seriously? Novelty ammo...now that's anti bait. I hope you mean novelty packaging.

R.W.Dale
January 12, 2013, 05:01 PM
Novelty? Are you going to stand in front of it? Are you going to laugh at the novelty of it if you were shot with it?

Seriously? Novelty ammo...now that's anti bait. I hope you mean novelty packaging.

How old are you 14?

The manufacturer goes out of their way to inform consumers that this ammunition is only to be used on a fantasy undead creature that doesn't exist and you don't think that constitutes a novelty?

You want to put yourself at the mercy of a public already looking at violent games, social detachment and guns with a microscope by carrying zombie ammunition that practically represents all THREE?

As a gun owner and part of the broader the community as a whole I think i speak for many when I say that we wish you WOULDN'T CARRY A GUN AT ALL because if found in a situation where you need to use it your cavalier attitude to public perception and grave legal considerations is going to result in another Zimmerman wich is something WE DONT NEED right now.




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about

meanmrmustard
January 12, 2013, 05:27 PM
How old are you 14?

The manufacturer goes out of their way to inform consumers that this ammunition is only to be used on a fantasy undead creature that doesn't exist and you don't think that constitutes a novelty?

You want to put yourself at the mercy of a public already looking at violent games, social detachment and guns with a microscope by carrying zombie ammunition that practically represents all THREE?

As a gun owner and part of the broader the community as a whole I think i speak for many when I say that we wish you WOULDN'T CARRY A GUN AT ALL because if found in a situation where you need to use it your cavalier attitude to public perception and grave legal considerations is going to result in another Zimmerman wich is something WE DONT NEED right now.




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about
No. But I'd like to hear why that's important to you!

No. I don't associate the term "novelty" to a combustion driven projectile, capable of inflicting injury and/or death. To do so would be not only foolish, but rather leftist.

No. This is your opinion...which leads us in circles.

As a gun owner, I'm ashamed of fellow gun owners and their attitude towards pleasing antis and compromise. Give an inch, lose a mile. Shameful, sir. Especially since you don't know me.

P.S. My age, creed, race, upbringing, religion, or tax bracket is of no concern to you or anyone else. I'd go so far as to say that attacking another poster, while smaller of scale, is as sad as you believe my ammo choice to be. Congrats.

Ehtereon11B
January 12, 2013, 06:41 PM
Z-max is a novelty ammo. The warning on the side is that it should only be used on zombies. BUT if you also look on the other side of the package it says "Live ammo, not a toy." So if you load it in a weapon, and shoot it at a human being with good shot placement, it will probably kill. It is novelty in the box and the magazine. Put it in the chamber and down the barrel it becomes all business.

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 12, 2013, 07:23 PM
Can you please explain to me why you pick this ammo over other proper, not for collecting, JHPs? There was one guy that got charged and convicted of murder for using 10mm hollow points. Sure he got out after his conviction was overturned. It happens and you should take carrying a gun seriously. Don't load your gun with novelty "Zombie Killer" ammo.

meanmrmustard
January 12, 2013, 07:47 PM
Can you please explain to me why you pick this ammo over other proper, not for collecting, JHPs? There was one guy that got charged and convicted of murder for using 10mm hollow points. Sure he got out after his conviction was overturned. It happens and you should take carrying a gun seriously. Don't load your gun with novelty "Zombie Killer" ammo. If this wasn't a question for me, apologies:
You'll notice I never said I specifically choose it over any other ammo. I said I'd use it if I had to and not feel bad about it. Novelty or not. Besides, I don't normally collect ammo, unless you mean hoarding.

But that's me. If someone chooses it for HD/SD or whatever, that's their choice. I don't want to be shot with it.

Infidel4life11
January 13, 2013, 11:30 AM
I carry +p JHP SD/HD, at work the Army's duty ammo is FMJ.

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