what's the real problem guns or drug crime?


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steelerdude99
January 5, 2013, 05:36 PM
The article is titled: Detroit reports highest homicide rate in 20 years. It's a truly sad piece of work. See link below:

http://news.yahoo.com/detroit-reports-highest-homicide-rate-in-20-years-192557311.html

"America has a problem with guns, but the epicenter seems to be here in Detroit," Interim Detroit Police Chief Chester Logan said at a news conference Thursday, as city officials reported 386 criminal homicides in 2012, the highest since 1992.

But later on ... "At least two-thirds of the homicides in Detroit are related to drug sales, disputes between people selling drugs or disputes between people owing people money about drugs," said David Martin, director of the Urban Safety Program at Wayne State University in Detroit.

So... what's the real problem ... guns or drug crime? :banghead: Drugs are already illegal.

chuck

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guitarguy314
January 5, 2013, 05:44 PM
If drugs were legal and sold legally by established businesses, our jails would be a lot emptier, and there would be less violence. IMO of course

Cesiumsponge
January 5, 2013, 05:47 PM
Hey, you'd be taking away jobs from the prison system! How else are they going to stuff their prisons once you take out drug offenders? We'd no longer be #1 in the world for prison population, and America is always #1!

parker51
January 5, 2013, 05:51 PM
And I'm sure that most of these drug users and dealers purchased their guns legally and went through the hassle of obtaining carry permits. What a joke! If they would just enforce current laws and lock up the criminals they wouldn't have this problem.

Cesiumsponge
January 5, 2013, 05:57 PM
Does anyone or any organization actually have credible statistics that further divides the cumulative homicide rates collected by the FBI into true innocent people killed by someone with a gun, and criminals killed by civilians, other criminals, or law enforcement?

I have a hard time believing the estimated 12,000 people a year who die at the hands of a gun every year are all innocent civilians going about their daily lives.

Sam Cade
January 5, 2013, 06:08 PM
I have a hard time believing the estimated 12,000 people a year who die at the hands of a gun every year are all innocent civilians going about their daily lives.
That is pretty funny. I get your meaning though.



Of the murders for which the circumstance surrounding the murder was known, 41.2 percent of victims were murdered during arguments (including romantic triangles) in 2009. Felony circumstances (rape, robbery, burglary, etc.) accounted for 22.9 percent of murders. Circumstances were unknown for 35.4 percent of reported homicides. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Table 12.)

And:

Law enforcement reported 667 justifiable homicides in 2009. Of those, law enforcement officers justifiably killed 406 felons, and private citizens justifiably killed 261 people during the commission of a crime. (See Expanded Homicide Data Tables 14 and 15.)

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/homicide.html

Cesiumsponge
January 5, 2013, 06:24 PM
Excellent Sam Cade, I thought I recalled seeing the numbers broken down more but I couldn't Google-fu where. Table 11 seems most useful to us since it shows murder circumstances, including the weapon-type used.

I don't exactly understand the rape category. Without being graphic, I assume it means the weapon that was used to carry out the act of rape, which resulted in death. It appears the majority of firearm homicides were due to "other arguments" and "unknown". It also doesn't specify if the victim was a criminal, which I suspect makes up a number of the robbery, burglary, narcotics, gangland and juvenile gang homicides that weren't cleared as justifiable homicide by law enforcement or civilians. Even the "argument over money" or "other argument" could easily qualify.

I'm surprised there were only 87 homicides from love triangles. I'd figure angry spouses catching their partner with their pants down would result in many more fatalities.

almherdfan
January 5, 2013, 06:25 PM
Prohibition does not work--in fact it is counter-productive (in a free market economy/strong civil liberties govt). America should know this. Our leaders should know this.

We know an AWB will fail. We know that because of experience and statistics. Rifles, including so-called assault weapons aren't the tool used in 97% (or more) in the murders committed in the USA. If magnifying glasses caused 3% of fires, and matches caused 50%, would they ban magnifying glasses?

Emotions will overcome common sense, leading good, rational, citizens astray. Understandably, our citizens & leaders anguish over the murder of very young children in their classrooms. We don't consider the thousands of young Americans killed as a by-product of the drug wars (not to mentioned the horrors of Mexico). We also forget that many of the murder victims in the USA know their killer.

I hope (but don't expect) that our leaders look at violent crime with their emotions in check and their minds keen for the truth.

9mmforMe
January 5, 2013, 06:31 PM
We could legalize drugs..or at least decriminalize them. Putting someone in jail for substances that are less harmful (marijuana especially) than the most lethal legal killing substance (alcohol) is truly insane!!

TAKtical
January 5, 2013, 06:33 PM
How about drunk driving?

DammitBoy
January 5, 2013, 06:39 PM
The only way to reduce gun violence in the United States is to stop the prohibition of drugs like pot and cocaine. Our drug wars and gang turf wars account for the majority of our gun related deaths. We have young black men murdering each other everyday in our large urban cities over drug traffic but that doesn't seem to make the news or create a hue and cry like these mass shootings that account for .02% of shooting deaths in the United States.

We need to end our prohibition on drugs. This could and should happen. It would dramatically lower inner city violence that costs so many lives each year - it's the biggest reason our gun deaths numbers are higher than anyone else's. Additionally, the taxes earned from pot sales would help with a multitude of problems.

Legalized drugs would cut the rug out from under the drug cartels, which would help lower drug related violence amongst our border states with Mexico.

1911 guy
January 5, 2013, 06:46 PM
And once again we stop shoty of naming the real problem. People. Human nature. The deisre to get one over on the other guy, to get ahead or think you can get away with something you know to be prohibited. Take away drugs and it will be something else.

I'm in no way coming out in favor of drug use (although pragmatism and our broken system makes the argument somewhat appealing) but drugs are no more to blame than guns or video games.

The real problem is human nature. Unfortunately, seven thousand years of human government has yet to find an effective means of regulating it.

Sam Cade
January 5, 2013, 06:49 PM
I don't exactly understand the rape category. .

An injury was inflicted with a firearm that resulted in death while the crime of rape was being perpetrated or as a consequence of the crime.

Raped then shot or someone was killed with a firearm in order to facilitate the rape of a third party.

DammitBoy
January 5, 2013, 07:23 PM
The real problem is human nature. Unfortunately, seven thousand years of human government has yet to find an effective means of regulating it.

Obviously, but we can learn from our mistakes in the past, or you would have to hope so. :uhoh:

Prohibition was a colossal failure that begat us organized crime and violence on an unprecedented level. The after affects are still with us. Our prohibition of drugs has created the same problem on an even greater scale.

If anybody wants to make a dent in gang/drug/gun violence in this country - your best bet is the legalization of marijuana.

JohnBT
January 5, 2013, 08:04 PM
"two-thirds of the homicides in Detroit are related to drug sales"

Jobs are scarce from what I've been told.

A couple of years ago a young guy in a Tigers cap appeared behind the register at the neighborhood 7-11. He's still there, friendly, efficient and a nice guy.

He moved to Richmond from Detroit to work full-time at a 7-11. And party some. ;)

carlrodd
January 5, 2013, 08:12 PM
1911 guy hit close to the mark. you can only react to human nature. you can' t, and shouldn't try to control it. and legalizing any drug will not affect violent crime statistics. most property crime for example, is a product of addicts stealing to feed addiction. alcohol is legal and is still probably the number one factor in domestic disputes. the answer is to respond to people' s behavior, and stop pretending that most people can be rehabilitated. build more prisons, and keep people in them for longer.

HDCamel
January 5, 2013, 08:26 PM
You want to know the problem?
There really is no problem.

Violent crime is down 50% and homicide is down 54% from what it was 20 years ago.
Despite gun ownership being at all time highs, despite being in an economic recession for half a decade, despite an education system that's on its last legs, despite the so-called "culture of violence", and despite kids growing up in the MTV Generation with two working parents and minimal religious influence.

You want to stop the little bit that's left faster than it's already going down?
Improve education, after school/mentoring programs, and child services.

Recon Ron
January 5, 2013, 08:33 PM
Think about this...


When has prohibition ever worked?

almherdfan
January 5, 2013, 08:35 PM
You want to know the problem?
There really is no problem.

Mmm, I'd argue that there is a problem (12K murders), but there may be no "good" solutions.

wrs840
January 5, 2013, 08:42 PM
The problem (if you want to call it a problem...) is urban pockets of dirtbags, killing each other:

http://www.ijreview.com/2013/01/27890-choose-your-own-crime-stats/

HDCamel
January 5, 2013, 08:44 PM
Mmm, I'd argue that there is a problem (12K murders), but there may be no "good" solutions.
12k isn't so bad when you consider it was double that 20 years ago.
Whatever we've been doing to fight crime is working, albeit slowly.

mokin
January 5, 2013, 08:45 PM
It seems to me that most of the human nature being reacted to is the crimes being commited with the 30 round magazines. All the rest may be just fluff. As if they are willing to conceed a few things here and there to appear "reasonable".

VVelox
January 5, 2013, 09:04 PM
You want to stop the little bit that's left faster than it's already going down? Improve education, after school/mentoring programs, and child services.

HDCamel, I agree. Here in Chicago removing the drug issue will notably lessen the impact of turf wars between gangs, but it will also remove a notable reduce their income. I could see leading to a definite increase in muggings to replace that drop.

Also another chunk of the problem is cultural. Getting the poor and lower middle class to take education(whether via school or ones self) seriously as well as make use of any social programs designed to help them can be problematic. This is something I've noticed can be a real issue, regardless of location, be it the south side of Chicago or the middle of no where KS. This is something very problematic to over come.

The effort needs to be focused on getting as many people past lower middle class as possible as that really removes a lot of incentive to engage in crime.

DammitBoy
January 5, 2013, 09:36 PM
alcohol is legal and is still probably the number one factor in domestic disputes.

So, do you think alcohol was less of a problem or more of a problem when it was prohibited? :scrutiny:

barnbwt
January 5, 2013, 11:36 PM
removing the drug issue will notably lessen the impact of turf wars between gangs, but it will also remove a notable reduce their income. I could see leading to a definite increase in muggings to replace that drop.


This. Violent criminals are and have always been about getting money for themselves quicly and easily at the expense of their fellow man. Hustling drugs is easier (and more profitable) than robbing people on the street, so it is the preferred method at present. Market forces cause escalating competition between gangs/syndicates to become violent until one side wins or a power balance forms.

Removing drug money will destabilize the power balance, and the turmoil will most defintely increase violent gang activity until a new order is established. Anything but the "status quo" will cause this short-term increase. At that point, the next easier crime (probably robbery, burglary, and gambling) will become the "income stream." However, these less-desirable crimes by definition bring in less money to the gangs, ultimately weakening their influence and their allure to would-be gangbangers. I believe removing the primary benefit (money) to their primary illicit activity (drug sales) would ultimately be a net positive for everyone involved.

At the end of the day, the problem isn't gun crime or drug crime, but crime crime. And unfortunately, crime is mostly caused by economic desperation. Until you cure that, the problem will remain. Even if cured, a few crimes will still be committed purely out of malice. The crime rate is only low in Heaven ;)

TCB

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