NFA rejects my Form 4, d'oh!


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Cesiumsponge
January 5, 2013, 10:30 PM
I need to rant.

I submitted my Form 4 back on June 6, 2012. I JUST now got a "final notice" from the US DOJ/NFA stating that I need to redo my forms originally sent back to the transferror on 11/15/12 because the signatures weren't in blue or black ink. The Form 4's the shop fills out have all the various blanks filled out on an online form and a completed version printed out, making use of a digital signature for the transferor. All I need to do is sign it. It's a slick setup. The 4473's are like that too. They've had this setup for about a year and no issues.

Dangit, you mean the NFA looked at my paperwork just 5 months after receiving it? Well apparently the store didn't get any such notice from the DOJ/NFA. I just left the store, filling out another Form 4 in an identical manner, hoping that it'll be accepted with the NFA branch and I don't need to start this process all over again. Hopefully this works...

I've done successful Form 4's through these guys before with no issues, as have many others. The transferor even used a digital signature, as they do for all other suppressor sales for other customers. Maybe my NFA processor was having a bad day or she took on a really picky assistant. :banghead:

Now I'm left wondering if they'll take what we're sending them or if I have to start over again. Anyone else ever get shafted during the NFA process? Please share your misery so I don't feel so unfortunate.

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BemidjiDweller
January 5, 2013, 10:41 PM
If I read what you said correctly, they rejected your paperwork for a specific reason, and you resubmitted another set of forms exactly the same as the first set? Boy are you going to be pissed in 5 and a half months when they reject those too.

Cesiumsponge
January 5, 2013, 10:44 PM
Exactly the same, except the transferor's signature is done in ink this time, which was the gripe they apparently had. They never got the originals the NFA said they sent out two months ago but the copy of the original they sent is unmarked. There are no stamps, signatures, or dates the NFA processor adds when they approve the paperwork.

At this point, there is nothing I can really do. The last several Form 4's I completed have a digital transferor signature and they liked it fine at the time.

Recon Ron
January 5, 2013, 10:44 PM
^^^^


Wizard... I meant post 2.

BemidjiDweller
January 5, 2013, 10:46 PM
Ah, gotcha. Well hopefully they accept it instead of making you start over.

Cesiumsponge
January 5, 2013, 10:47 PM
Another 6-8 months...there is nothing I could do about it anyhow if that's what the NFA wanted to do.

I suppose it could be much worse. I have some relatives trying to get citizenship. I thought 6 months and $200 was bad...

kell490
January 6, 2013, 04:37 AM
Mine had a typo on the SN when we sent it to the county DA's office when we got it back we noticed the typo we just fixed it by using white out hand writing in the digit. The ATF took it anyway we didn't want to send it back to the DA's office again that took 30 days just by it self. This was in 1994 so no computer signatures then blue ink was usually frowned upon because it could not be copied on a copier.

Aaron Baker
January 6, 2013, 11:32 AM
Did they specifically tell you that it was going to take another 6-8 months?

Usually if there's a problem and you get a notice of it, that means they're so close to finishing the processing that it's done within a few weeks or a month from resubmittal...

I suppose this might be different because you're resubmitting the entire forms, but I don't see why. They didn't send your money back did they?

Aaron

Bubbles
January 6, 2013, 01:21 PM
?

We've been asking ATF to accept digital signatures for a while, always been told no. Your FFL/SOT should have known better.

Cesiumsponge
January 6, 2013, 02:46 PM
My SOT has used a digital signature for the transferor for at least a year without issue. I have several approved Form 4s with such a signature. It might be our processor changed her mind. At this point, we can only submit the replacement forms to their specifications and hope its only a few weeks of delay. The SOT might have to change procedure now because of this rejection.

Aaron Baker
January 7, 2013, 02:48 PM
Ha! I guess stupid errors can happen to anyone.

I just got my most recent Form 1 kicked back to me because I submitted two copies of the Form 1--one with an original signature, and the other as a copy. You have to have an original signature in black or blue ink on each copy.

Of course, it says that right on the Form 1 instructions, and I should know better. Not sure why I spaced it this time.

But as I indicated in my response above, my experience has been that when they kick one back like this, you've got 30 days to reply to them and correct the error. If you do, it gets approved in short order. Basically, most of the 6 month wait is just your paperwork sitting on someone's desk. Once they look at it, it either gets approved or they give you a chance to fix any mistakes. If you fix the mistakes, it's not another 6 month wait because it's in their pile to process right away.

Hope that means that both me and the OP will be getting our approved stamps soon.

Aaron

Cesiumsponge
January 7, 2013, 03:02 PM
Believe it or not, my first Form 4 done years ago didn't even have a reason filled out for ownership and it was approved in about 3 months. I guess it depends on the mood of the processor. Sadly they're overworked and probably the hardest workers in the entire ATF.

CoRoMo
January 7, 2013, 06:41 PM
My last F4 had so many typos and errors, and I'm still astounded every time I look at it, that I can't believe they approved it.

Aaron Baker
January 8, 2013, 08:51 AM
I agree that they're hardworking and overworked. I actually think the recent hiring of assistants probably means more forms are going to get kicked back as they notice more errors.

Aaron

Charger442
January 8, 2013, 10:47 AM
so, let me get this straight. ATF sent a notice back to your dealer back in November, they ignored it....(which if they hadnt you could have resubmitted and been approved within two weeks) but instead, because the error notice went unanswered, they denied your application and now you have to re-submit and go to the back of the line?


i would be pissed off at my dealer. sounds like they dropped the ball.

jmorris
January 8, 2013, 11:42 AM
Back when they quit accepting "multi" I had one in the system that was kicked back to add a specific caliber, two weeks later it was approved.

FWIW I always send in my forms, that way I can see when the check clears, pending etc.

Charger442
January 8, 2013, 11:54 AM
Whether you send in your paperwork with your check is irrelevant, other than knowing when its cashed. That's all it does for you. The dealers name is still who is initiating the transfer to you and therefore they are the ones notified when an error occurs. That's why the stamp is sent to the dealer and not you, on a Form 4. Form 1 is different.

jmorris
January 8, 2013, 12:32 PM
If the op had had the information that was on the form 4 he could have checked with the NFA branch with a simple phone call and would have known that there was a problem back in November and been proactive in solving it.

Charger442
January 8, 2013, 12:42 PM
While that's true, the only information you need off a form 4 to check on status with NFA is the serial number. I always get a copy of the Form 4 for my records when its sent, thought everyone knew to do that..... atleast get the can/rifle serial number. That's all you need while your waiting.


It still doesn't change the fact that the dealer screwed him.

Aaron Baker
January 8, 2013, 07:06 PM
I don't think you do have this "straight," Charger442.

Maybe Cesium can chime back in, but he never said they rejected his application. He said he received a "final notice" that they needed him to correct his paperwork. A denial would mean they refunded his $200 too.

As someone who has received a few NFA Branch notices that my information needed to be updated/corrected, I can say that they put a scary warning on the notice that if you don't correct the info within 30 days, they'll reject your application. It sounds like that they give you a second chance with a "final notice" before they just deny you. If Cesium responds to this final notice, I predict he'll get his approved stamp within the next month.

Personally, I'm glad to know that the ATF gives you a couple of notices before rejecting your application and making you start over. Still, it is crappy that his dealer didn't notify him of the first notice, because it means he waited extra time he didn't have to.

But from Cesium's second post, it sounds like the dealer said he never got the first notice. So how is that the dealer's fault?

The dealers name is still who is initiating the transfer to you and therefore they are the ones notified when an error occurs. That's why the stamp is sent to the dealer and not you, on a Form 4.

I've never personally done a Form 4. It does seem, from the way the form is worded, that the transferror is the applicant, so I guess that's who the communications are sent to. That's weird to me, since as the transferree, I'm the one paying the tax and receiving the stamp. Seems like the ATF should be sending communications to me, not the dealer.

Does anyone else have experiences with Form 4s? Do they always communicate with the dealer, not the buyer, when there are problems?

Aaron

Cesiumsponge
January 8, 2013, 10:58 PM
so, let me get this straight. ATF sent a notice back to your dealer back in November, they ignored it....(which if they hadnt you could have resubmitted and been approved within two weeks) but instead, because the error notice went unanswered, they denied your application and now you have to re-submit and go to the back of the line?

i would be pissed off at my dealer. sounds like they dropped the ball.

My dealer either ignored it, never received it, or it got lost in the shuffle. Considering the outstanding customer service my dealer is known for nationally and the great CS I've always had, I'm willing to give them a pass. I've done successful Form 4's through them, even with the digitally-printed signature just last year, without problem. In any case, the NFA did not deny my application. They sent me a final notice, which was how I discovered the issue. Replacement Form 4's have been sent out within the 30-day ultimatum the NFA gave me. It'll take a lot more than that to piss me off, unless I discover the store was malicious and purposely negligent.

If the op had had the information that was on the form 4 he could have checked with the NFA branch with a simple phone call and would have known that there was a problem back in November and been proactive in solving it.

How would I know there was a problem in November unless I'm "that guy" that calls every week? I can't solve a problem I'm not made aware of. I didn't get any notification until the first week of January. It sounds like the NFA tries to contact the transferor first, then the transferee. The SOT is the transferor. They are transferring the property from their posession to the posession of the transferee. Perhaps since the issue was with an improper ink signature from the transferor, the NFA mailed it back to the transferor?

Unless we get a few other guys who've gotten kicked back Form 4's, I don't know what's SOP at the NFA.

Charger442
January 9, 2013, 03:55 PM
it seems Cesium cleared up the fact that his form 4 was not rejected, as the thread title suggests.

glad to hear it wont be a total re-do on the wait time. good luck on the resubmittal, it should mean you will be fixed up within a couple of weeks.

Cesiumsponge
January 9, 2013, 09:48 PM
Yes, my use of "rejects" was incorrect. Too late to fix it now though. I'm still curious if the NFA tends to send Form 4's back that need correction to the transferor, transferee, or it's case-dependent.

MenaceMan47
January 18, 2013, 12:40 PM
I had my form 1 kicked back to me this past year for my SBR. Turns out the chief LEO didn't check ANY of the boxes above his signature indicating I wasn't a felon, fugitive of the law, etc. So... I checked them for him and sent them back. Voila, it was back in my hands 2 weeks later, stamp and all.

BemidjiDweller
January 18, 2013, 02:43 PM
I had my form 1 kicked back to me this past year for my SBR. Turns out the chief LEO didn't check ANY of the boxes above his signature indicating I wasn't a felon, fugitive of the law, etc. So... I checked them for him and sent them back. Voila, it was back in my hands 2 weeks later, stamp and all.

Uhhh, that doesn't sound honest/legal. He agreed to the terms he signed to, not what you added later.

Aaron Baker
January 18, 2013, 07:00 PM
Uhhh, that doesn't sound honest/legal. He agreed to the terms he signed to, not what you added later.

Let's not get too excited here. Menaceman is confused. The checkboxes on a Form 1 are supposed to be filed out by him, not the CLEO. The CLEO just signs. He didn't check any checkboxes because they're not for him to check.

Read the form... it says "Are you" above the checkbox questions.

So he didn't do anything wrong.

Aaron

BemidjiDweller
January 18, 2013, 07:32 PM
My inexperiance with form 4/1's is showing :o from what was typed, made it seem like the CLEO is meant to check them off. Of course, that was an assumption on my part, and I apologize.

Aaron Baker
January 18, 2013, 09:40 PM
That's okay. It seemed like Menaceman was confused as well.

MenaceMan47
January 19, 2013, 01:23 AM
I remember the CLEO here checked those boxes on my form 4 for my AOW years back. Oh well, was nice of him to do that for me :P

Mtnvalley
January 23, 2013, 09:57 PM
How would I know there was a problem in November unless I'm "that guy" that calls every week? I can't solve a problem I'm not made aware of. I didn't get any notification until the first week of January. It sounds like the NFA tries to contact the transferor first, then the transferee. The SOT is the transferor. They are transferring the property from their posession to the posession of the transferee. Perhaps since the issue was with an improper ink signature from the transferor, the NFA mailed it back to the transferor?

Unless we get a few other guys who've gotten kicked back Form 4's, I don't know what's SOP at the NFA.

I've both had a few kicked back, AND had one transfer that showed why IMHO one DOES need to call every few weeks, after perhaps 90 days.

The ones kicked back were in two cases due to error on our end, in another it was a NIB gun that had two previous F3's transferring it...with what ATF believed to be the wrong barrel length. Yet another had the serial number of record matching an entirely different made/model (not a bogus remade M11, this was a SBS).

In all cases except that SBS, I had an approved F4 back within a few weeks after sending in the corrected paperwork. Whether this represents "SOP" or not, I cannot say...but that seems to be the general report online from others as well.

As for the need to call ATF occasionally to check up...well, I had a case where I bought a MG from a well-known dealer, who was brokering the sale for an individual who still held the gun during transfer to my dealer. (Bear in mind that approved F4s go to the transferror of record.)

I had my dealer call ATF (as I usually do) 30 days after check cashed, just to get a pending date. I then waited, without asking him to calla again for some months (transfer was to him, so I couldn't call myself).

Imagine my reaction when I had him call in April, and learned that the %^&* transfer had been approved in January! The seller claims he never got it, the brokering dealer didn't know squat, nor did my guy. It took ANOTHER month after that to get a "replacement" F4 sent to the seller and get the gun...almost five months after transfer had been approved.

One doesn't have to "be that guy who calls every week"...but I won't again be that guy who doesn't call for months. I now call (or have my dealer call if it's the front end of a double) after 90 days, and every month thereafter. JMHO.

Cesiumsponge
January 24, 2013, 01:21 AM
At the risk of sounding lazy, what's the number that people are referring to for checking up on the current status of a Form 4 submission, and is there a certain division or department I ask for, and what information do I need to have on-hand to provide them?

I haven't heard any updates on my situation yet. No news is definitely not good news. I want my form back and stamped.

Aaron Baker
January 24, 2013, 09:35 AM
The number is 304-616-4500. Tell them you're checking on the status of a Form 4 and they'll want the serial number.

If you need more information than the person who answers the phone can give you, you can ask for your examiner.

Aaron

mcg-doc
January 24, 2013, 09:43 AM
Serial number of your firearm and your name or the name of your trust.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

Cesiumsponge
February 4, 2013, 11:36 PM
I should probably update this thread. It was approved on 1-16-13 after the delay. That took a while from the April purchase and Form 4 submission in June upon arrival to my SOT.

OcelotZ3
February 5, 2013, 12:34 AM
I had mine kicked back twice, and it only took a week or so for each turn once I submitted the changes. So yes, it takes them about 5 months to get to your form, but once they do they will deal with any updates quickly.

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