The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday


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braxton14
January 5, 2013, 10:31 PM
After I left work yesterday (I'm an Animal Control Officer), I headed to the local gun shop/ FFL where I had my Browning 1919a4 sent. As I walked in I see two ladies standing over a 1919a4 and taking close up pictures of it laying on the counter while talking to an employee. Gullible me walks up and says "Nice, I just bought one too and am here to pick it up." Right then, they Identify themselves as ATF agents and ask for my name for confirmation . They then proceeded to ask if its Full or Semi auto and I told them that its a semi because I have not filed for a tax stamp, etc. Long story short, they were suspicious about it (asked for the info of the person I bought it from and information on John McGuire..because he's a reputable SOT that did the build). What made it worse, is that the manager there initially claimed that he wasn't expecting to receive it even though I called there multiple times and had an employee fax their FFL info to the seller (that was cleared up when I got there). The seller even had thorough contact with them (20+ exchanged emails) and I was told that everything was arranged for pick up (he talked to the agents on the phone as well when I was there). Now supposedly, the agents were already at the range/shop and happened to be there when my gun was delivered. After asking for my license and asking me several questions, they said the my gun will have to stay at the shop for about 2 weeks until one of their specialist can come by and verify that its a semi automatic.

I'm just 24 but I'm far from new to the process of picking up a firearm from an FFL; and I've never been in a situation like this. I mean, being an officer with 2 degrees in Criminal Justice, I never would have guessed that I'd be federally investigated for doing something legal. And even though I did nothing wrong, having 2 agents thoroughly question me was a little nerve wrecking.

What i don't understand is, why is my 1919a4 being singled out? Using their logic, all of the other guns transferred there, could potentially be full auto because of their looks!


My questions are:

1) Have you ever been in this type of situation?

2) What would you have done?

3) What would you do from here? (I already got the shop owner to email me a confirmation that it was transferred there)


Here it is:
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x288/Stehson/get-attachment_zps23cf6b71.jpeg

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Sam1911
January 5, 2013, 10:38 PM
They then proceeded to ask if its Full or Semi auto and I tell them that its a semi because I have filed for a tax stamp, etc.Filed for a tax stamp to do WHAT?

A semi-auto 1919a4 is just an "Other Firearm." No tax stamp required, unless you're going to mount a stock on it and then SBR it... :confused:

1911 guy
January 5, 2013, 10:43 PM
Why does a tax stamp figure into the the transfer of a semi-auto?

A bigger question, why was the dealer getting hinky with BATF about a legal transfer? That may be worth looking into on its own merits.

Sounds like a fishing expedition on the agency's part (being there when a "scary machine gun" was delivered) but you're stuck in the middle now.

I'd grill the dealer about why he felt the need to be less than upfront with the agents. That put you in a pickle.

Fire_Moose
January 5, 2013, 10:45 PM
If you work for the ATF, you should absolutely be able to tell semi from full auto, no?

1911 guy
January 5, 2013, 10:48 PM
Most agents of any federal agency, regardless of the role of that agency, are nothing more than mid level beaurocrats with little more than an inkling of what their agency does. That's why some rise to the top quickly and stay there. They have a firm grasp and working knowlege. Someone from the Technology division will be assigned to inspect it, probably.

ETA: but yes, in a realistic world, you'd think so. However, we live in something less than a perfect world where government agencies are somewhat less than optimal. Some days I thank my stars for that, though.

nathan
January 5, 2013, 10:50 PM
They must have had intel of straw purchases of such firearms and your young age must have ringed a bell on the store manager or what not. Maybe they are just cautious and trying to link the dots on said items. Just stay calm and cooperate.

Tommygunn
January 5, 2013, 10:51 PM
If you work for the ATF, you should absolutely be able to tell semi from full auto, no?

That would be expecting too much from them.
I have the same question earlier posters have: if this is a semi then why the application for a tx stamp? It isn't necessary.
It might be that your remark triggered their suspicions. Ever think about that?

Sam1911
January 5, 2013, 10:54 PM
If you work for the ATF, you should absolutely be able to tell semi from full auto, no?Not necessarily. The BATFE has various inspectors, and enforcement agents, and tech branch guys/gals who all have different roles and skill sets and knowledge.

It does sound like a couple of inspectors were in the shop to do an audit of the FFL's books or some other administrative thing, and happened to see this huge "machine gun" sitting on the counter. Not knowing all that much about semi-auto belt-fed builds (heck, the vast majority of gun owners have never even heard of such a thing) they felt they need to call in one of the tech branch guys to make sure it is built in a way that conforms to the BATFE's rulings on what constitutes a true semi-auto build.

Remember, the insides of a semi 1919 are reworked in major ways so that it both has the capacity to fire semi-auto from the closed bolt, and so that it cannot possibly accept the original style full-auto fire control system back into the receiver.

That's a lot of tech-y stuff that a couple paperwork inspectors wouldn't have the background to identify on their own.

Now, as to whether they should have taken the word of the buyer and dealer that this is a semi-auto weapon, not an illegal full-auto ... well, on the one hand, what would make them think that the Rem740 on the wall wasn't an illegal machine gun, too? But on the other hand, it IS a 1919 and ... well?

Ryanxia
January 5, 2013, 11:03 PM
If I were denied the Right to receive my legal semi-auto firearm I would certainly make sure to get write down their names/info from the identification and clearly ask if they are denying you the Right to receive your own property.

That being said, you mentioned tax stamp so maybe you live in an area where not everyone can own a semi-auto?

Either way, I wouldn't roll over on that, and I wouldn't care of the FFL owner after that.

Sam1911
January 5, 2013, 11:07 PM
That being said, you mentioned tax stamp so maybe you live in an area where not everyone can own a semi-auto?A tax stamp is a federal thing related only to machine guns, SBRs, SBSs, AOWs, Silencers, and Destructive Devices. There is no correlation between state law and federal tax stamps. If you live somewhere where semi-autos are restricted or prohibited, a federal tax stamp doesn't help you any.

wacki
January 5, 2013, 11:07 PM
I'm with sam1911. What's the tax stamp for?

HDCamel
January 5, 2013, 11:09 PM
If you work for the ATF, you should absolutely be able to tell semi from full auto, no?

They couldn't even tell the difference between a machine gun and an Airsoft gun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rEuTwYALho

braxton14
January 5, 2013, 11:26 PM
CORRECTION: Disregard the "Tax Stamp" remark..I made a typo and didn't realize it until you guy pointed it out I meant to say: "and I told them that its a semi because I HAVE NOT filed for a tax stamp"

Derek Zeanah
January 5, 2013, 11:38 PM
Wow. This ATF/Airsoft video made my night.

9rEuTwYALho

Jim NE
January 5, 2013, 11:50 PM
Remember that the BATFE may start controlling the toxic substance commonly known as "sugar" in the near future. It seems that millions of 10 year olds are developing an unnatural fondness for it.

This is good, as it may divert the agency's attention away from firearms for a while.

blkbrd666
January 5, 2013, 11:56 PM
LOL...that is one embarrassing video. If I were that ignorant, I would hope someone would just shoot me. This HAS to be some sort of joke.

Elkins45
January 6, 2013, 12:09 AM
I wonder if anyone ever filled a FOI request to see the 'documentation' that an air soft gun can be converted to a machine gun?

kwguy
January 6, 2013, 12:16 AM
OMG! I thought I was watching a comedy skit. That HAS to be a joke, right?

splithoof
January 6, 2013, 12:22 AM
Why on earth was your firearm laying on some gun shop counter exposed to whomever casually strolls in? Something like that (or any firearm not meant for sale) should be kept out of sight. It should have never left the shipping carton except to be checked by the dealer upon delivery in the back room. At that point, it stays in the carton until you, the individual taking ownership displays required ID and completing necessary paperwork.
Would other gun shop please comment on that? It is precisely the reason I prefer to deal with private FFL's.

OilyPablo
January 6, 2013, 12:28 AM
I was going to suggest finding a new FFL as well.

the manager there initially claimed that he wasn't expecting to receive it even though I called there multiple times

AlexanderA
January 6, 2013, 12:32 AM
Remember that the BATFE may start controlling the toxic substance commonly known as "sugar" in the near future.

Actually, they've done that historically. Remember, bulk amounts of sugar are used in making moonshine. The "revenooers" would track sugar purchases in rural areas as a means of catching moonshiners. This was a big deal as recently as the 1970's, or later.

SSN Vet
January 6, 2013, 12:36 AM
They were either there for an inspection and happen to see it....

Or the dealer had no idea what it really was when he agreed to receive it, and freaked out when he saw it and called them in.

Given the way he apparently tried to cover his arse by saying he had no knowledge that it was coming, I'd guess the later.

Time to find a new FFL to handle your transfers?

barnbwt
January 6, 2013, 12:37 AM
If I were denied the Right to receive my legal semi-auto firearm I would certainly make sure to get write down their names/info from the identification and clearly ask if they are denying you the Right to receive your own property.

I wouldn't raise a stink about a dang thing until they actually sieze it. You really don't want them to go all Waco on you. They left it in the hands of the FFL, didn't they? That implies they really don't think they'll have to confiscate it.

I wonder if anyone ever filled a FOI request to see the 'documentation' that an air soft gun can be converted to a machine gun?

Nope--Natl Security :D

TCB

bushmaster1313
January 6, 2013, 12:38 AM
Well,
If I saw one of these:

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x288/Stehson/get-attachment_zps23cf6b71.jpeg

I would assume it was a "machine gun" until proven otherwise.

swathdiver
January 6, 2013, 01:04 AM
Reminds of another government employee who shot himself in the foot in front of a bunch of elementary school kids while talking about gun safety.

Onmilo
January 6, 2013, 01:10 AM
Sideplate is marked:
Browning Machine Gun
I thought semi auto guns had to have that marked out and:
Semi Auto Only
stamped below the markings,,,

More to add.
Don't worry, you won't be charged with anything, you didn't take possession of the gun, but for whatever reason, they are looking at the doings of the manufacturer.
You may want to give them a call and let them know what is going on...

HOOfan_1
January 6, 2013, 01:16 AM
I wonder if anyone ever filled a FOI request to see the 'documentation' that an air soft gun can be converted to a machine gun?

I also wonder if the ATF realized they had no right to seize them, and since they overstepped their bounds, they came up with the BS story about being able to convert them to real firearms.


My next project....easily converting this

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l1g007MwjN1qb3mmfo1_400.jpg

into this

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Abrams_Pics/M1A1-Abrams-USMC-01.jpg

7.62 Nato
January 6, 2013, 01:48 AM
Well,
If I saw one of these:

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x288/Stehson/get-attachment_zps23cf6b71.jpeg

I would assume it was a "machine gun" until proven otherwise.
Some people assume too much.

NavyLCDR
January 6, 2013, 01:56 AM
and I told them that its a semi because I have not filed for a tax stamp, etc.

That's weird.... I always thought that what made a firearm semi-automatic was the fact that only one round was discharged for each pull of the trigger but that the firearm loaded another round ready to fire at the next pull of the trigger....

mastiffhound
January 6, 2013, 01:56 AM
Nevermind

MagnumDweeb
January 6, 2013, 03:39 AM
1919s are one of those guns that's actually a PITA to make semi-auto only. It's far easier to make one full-auto. With 1919s, the kits are still very popular, and have only gotten more expensive.

This is also the ATF we are talking about and like any government employee they are probably playing CYA. God forbid you got the gun out of there with people thinking it was Semi-auto only, the next thing you know the same gun is used a few months later in a mass killing, with it being full-auto. I know its obscene and ridiculous but this is the way many government stooges think. Better to error on the side of paranoia and have nothing bad happen, then be reasonable and risk something horrible happening.

Think about it, the ATF is currently run by the Dems and their mentality. Better to destroy your rights than....well take the chance the gun will be used in a crime.

Sam1911
January 6, 2013, 08:23 AM
Geez...there's waaay too high a "signal-to-noise" ratio in this thread. I only count about 6 posts out of 30 (not even counting 6 I deleted last night as just vapid) that even speculate in a helpful way. And NONE of us actually know anything about what's happening yet.

In truth, Onmilo may have been closest -- perhaps that manufacturer has been cutting a few corners or doing things he maybe shouldn't (it HAPPENS) and they're inspecting each of the guns he's made to be sure he's followed the law. Those two "ignorant" ladies MAY have just saved you from coming into possession of an illegal machine gun. We just don't know.

Braxton, send me a Private Message when there's something else to report and I'll reopen the thread. Perhaps we can all learn something once there's something to learn.

Sam1911
January 10, 2013, 10:38 PM
The OP has asked me to reopen this to share the following:

UPDATE:

1) I talked to one of the agents and she slipped out the fact that the FFL is the one that called because he didn't know what he had on his hands (plus he claimed that the clerk that handled the info part of the transfer didnt fully inform him...even though he's the one that handles the emails)

2) They said that they are planning on having their specialist inspect it tomorrow or the day after at the latest. BUT when I asked if they'd give me documentation stating that everything is ok when they finish she said no and "it won't be necessary." She also declined to let me record them inspecting it (I already knew that would happen because of the whole "you cant record Feds..it affect their safety" thing.

3) She mentioned that she wants to talk to me regarding 2 revolvers I've had since July (because they were purchased and transferred at the same time...with a different FFL though). So my questions are: Have you had issues purchasing more than 1 gun at once before? And how would they have even known about the revolvers since Florida doesnt require you to register firearms?


Edit: I heard that the FFL they were transferred to no longer does transfers (I'm assuming because he was up in age). And I've heard that when FFLs close shop they turn in all of their records to the BATF, and they are supposed to destroy the info...i guess not

michaelbsc
January 10, 2013, 10:53 PM
The OP has asked me to reopen this to share the following:

The fact that the tracked the two revolvers is a little disconcerting.

Clearly they hang on to old records.

braxton14
January 10, 2013, 10:54 PM
Response from another forum's thread:

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-3310-4.pdf

Multiple Disposition of Handguns form... Dealer is supposed to fill this out if you buy more than one handgun at a time.

animator
January 10, 2013, 11:17 PM
Response from another forum's thread:

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-3310-4.pdf

Multiple Disposition of Handguns form... Dealer is supposed to fill this out if you buy more than one handgun at a time.
Had a friend get a visit from the local ATF office after having several handguns transferred at one time. He produced his 03, and all was well.


But yes, it happens.

braxton14
January 10, 2013, 11:19 PM
03?

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

Aaron Baker
January 10, 2013, 11:21 PM
I'm in no way paranoid about interactions with the ATF, but I have to say that when federal law enforcement agents want to start talking to me about more than the reason I was originally on their radar, I get cautious.

If you bought two revolvers, they probably got the form referenced above that reported that. If you still own both of them, I suppose it couldn't hurt to simply be honest with them and tell them that, and possibly even show them the firearms. That would almost certainly satisfy their curiosity.

However, you are under NO obligation to speak to them about those revolvers, PERIOD. Sure, they want to ask you questions. Cops want to ask people questions all the time. You are never required to answer those questions. You can absolutely get yourself into more trouble by doing so. Especially if you've innocently sold one of those revolvers in a face-to-face transaction. All sorts of legal, innocent things can look fishy to ATF agents who are on the hunt for problems.

At the risk of sounding overly cautious, now might be the time that you want to speak to an attorney. You don't want the ATF to end up letting you talk yourself into some trouble.

What should happen now is that they inspect this firearm, verify it isn't fully automatic, the transfer is completed and you're done. The fact that they are now wanting to question you about other guns you've legally purchased and own is not a good sign.

Aaron

P.S. As for the off-topic chuckling in this thread about the Tacoma seizure of airsoft rifles, it might be worth checking the facts before laughing at the ATF. The Taiwanese manufacturer was striving for such an accurate reproduction that he produced a metal lower receiver with three holes (easily seen in the video) in the receiver, including the one for the autosear, as well as working takedown pins and a functioning magwell. You'd have to swap on a real upper receiver, and remove the guts and add a lower parts kit with an autosear, but that's relatively easy work. If a "real" lower with the third hole drilled is an illegal machine gun, then an "accurate reproduction" of a lower, made from metal, with the third hole drilled... is just a toy? It might have broken after the first couple rounds were fired, and maybe no one was going to try to convert it, but that doesn't make it not an illegal machine gun. There are guys building Glocks using accurate airsoft reproduction frames. (Which is not illegal, since there's no machine gun issue.)

kludge
January 10, 2013, 11:21 PM
The OP has asked me to reopen this to share the following:

1) I talked to one of the agents and she slipped out the fact that the FFL is the one that called because he didn't know what he had on his hands

This is what I immediately thought when I read the OP.

Nice.

Deanimator
January 11, 2013, 05:49 AM
Regarding the secondary matter of the revolvers, I would NEVER talk to them without a lawyer present. BATF(E) has a proven track record of mendacity, including under oath.

Talk to them without legal counsel at your own risk.

RetiredUSNChief
January 11, 2013, 07:33 AM
Hmmm...

It's interesting to note that it was the FFL who called in the BATF. Understandable, if he didn't realize what he was dealing with and didn't have the experience to understand and verify that something that was stamped "machine gun" was semi-auto only. Any legitimate FFL would not want to be caught up in illegal firearms transactions.

Considering that I would have told the FFL what to expect in such a transaction, I would have expected him to voice any concerns with me personally, so that things could have been straightened out as part of a professional relationship with a customer. But not knowing me from Adam, this may be a stretch. Certainly he wouldn't want to get involved with a possible disagreement/altercation with a criminal.

That said, once the BATF is done and they've cleared the 1919 as a legal, semi-auto only weapon, this should be the end of it.

HOWEVER, I simply cannot believe that they will not provide you with documentation of their investigation. Most especially since they have questioned you about it. If they had done all this "in the background", with you having never known anything about it, then fine. This is because you have yet to take possession of the firearm...it's not yours yet. But they have questioned you about this and that brings you into the picture.

I would talk to an attorney about this...and don't put it off. Some might say "this isn't an official investigation", but that's semantics. They ARE investigating. Even if everything is on the up-and-up, you likely have every right to have that documentation in writing. So get an attorney and pursue that.

As for the questions about the pistols, as an unrelated subject with respect to their investigation...the BATF absolutely should know that all appropriate paperwork was filed. That's part of the documentation they most certainly would have reviewed. If so, then they had absolutely no business questioning an legitimate, legal transaction unless they were looking for something else.

Now, some people like to use that line "if you have nothing to hide..."

Rest assured, even if you don't have anything to hide you have every right, and a responsibility to yourself, to politely refuse to answer any such questions.

Why?

Because, contrary to popular belief, criminal investigators aren't looking to clear an individual of a crime. They're looking to find any evidence of a crime, period. If you say the wrong thing, even innocently, that remark will become part of an official record and will start a world of hurt for you.

Because these BATF officials should have already KNOWN you had made a legal multiple handgun purchase through their access of the records documenting that fact, you should immediately contact an attorney.

Now, because we all know that things like this are documented in official records somewhere, you need to do the smart thing yourself: document it in your own official records. Make it part of all the official paperwork you should be keeping anyway. Years down the road, if something should ever come up, you will have this. Another reason to have a copy of what the BATF is doing.

I'm not saying you're in trouble. Very likely you are not based on what you've presented here. However, it would be somewhat less than smart for you NOT to contact an attorney and discuss this.

If cost is a concern, then know that most attorneys offer a free one hour consultation in which they will hear your concerns and let you know what they can do to help and what it will cost. Most attorneys will work with you on payments, too. Since this doesn't actually involve any criminal charges or whatnot, then likely the expense will be fairly minimal...just payment for straight up legal advice and such.


All this said, realize that I am NOT an attorney. However, I've had a wee bit of experience with the judicial system (civilian and military) because I had the rather unpleasant experience of having married a demon-spawn for a first wife. What I encountered because of that has been very revealing. As have the discussions I've had over the years with various attorneys and law enforcement people in conversations on a variety of other unrelated topics.

If you are questioned by any criminal or law enforcement agency, you are part of an investigation. The purpose of said questioning is to find evidence of criminal activity, whether you are an official suspect or not.

PBR Streetgang
January 11, 2013, 08:50 AM
First off let me preempt my post by saying that my post isn't meant to be derogatory.

In my dealings with BATF ,the special agents and attorneys are not knowledgeable in firearms themselves but the Federal laws and rules pertaining to them. I have yet to meet a SA who was a gun guy (or girl)

On the other hand, their civilian technical branch people are some of the most knowledgeable firearms I have ever dealt with.

I presented a M203 HE (M406) round to a local BATF SA who explained to me it was just a big bullet. The color drained out of his face after he made a call to their tech division and they told him what he was holding.

Bubbles
January 11, 2013, 09:31 AM
In my dealings with BATF ,the special agents and attorneys are not knowledgeable in firearms themselves but the Federal laws and rules pertaining to them. I have yet to meet a SA who was a gun guy (or girl)

On the other hand, their civilian technical branch people are some of the most knowledgeable firearms I have ever dealt with.
I'm going to agree with this. Also, many dealers want nothing to do with Title II firearms, so they never bother to learn the technical differences between what a 1919 semi- vs full-auto will look like, because they never expect to have to deal with it.

So, when that 1919 came in obviously the dealer assumed he had unpapered NFA on his hands and called the ATF.

rdhood
January 11, 2013, 10:31 AM
They were either there for an inspection and happen to see it....

Or the dealer had no idea what it really was when he agreed to receive it, and freaked out when he saw it and called them in.

Given the way he apparently tried to cover his arse by saying he had no knowledge that it was coming, I'd guess the later.

Time to find a new FFL to handle your transfers?

This. If I walk into a store and see MY gun on the counter being ogled/handled by anyone, then that's the last time I do business with that FFL.

Every gun I have ever transferred had to be retrieved from a safe room.



However, you are under NO obligation to speak to them about those revolvers, PERIOD. Sure, they want to ask you questions. Cops want to ask people questions all the time. You are never required to answer those questions. You can absolutely get yourself into more trouble by doing so.

I second the "do not talk without an attorney present" line of thought. If you say one thing that could be construed wrong, or construed as a lie or that you were being evasive, you could find yourself in a world of legal hurt. Don't do it.

VA27
January 11, 2013, 12:10 PM
I'm kinda mixed on this. On the one hand, I'd be a little peeved with the dealer for dropping a dime on me. On the other hand, with all that's been in the news and the increased ATF inspections, I can kinda understand why he did. That doesn't make it right, but if he's so uninformed about firearms it makes sense.

I have no problem with the gun being out for all to see. If I order something unusual I tell my dealer to leave it out to see if anyone else is interested and maybe generate another sale. I want my dealer to be sucessful and be in business for a long time.

The OP appears to be a polite young man and I find no fault in the way he handled the situation.

I am neither young nor polite, YMMV.

ball3006
January 11, 2013, 12:38 PM
I have fired both the semi auto and full auto 1919s. If I am correct, the full auto fires from an open bolt and the semi auto fires from a closed bolt. If this is correct, just pull the bolt back, to ensure the gun is not loaded, and pull the trigger. If the bolt slams shut, you may have a full auto on your hands. Or do the opposite, close the bolt, after checking to see the gun is not loaded, and pull the trigger. If it goes click, it probably is a semi auto. I will never be able to afford either gun but they are really cool....chris3

psyopspec
January 11, 2013, 01:04 PM
2) They said that they are planning on having their specialist inspect it tomorrow or the day after at the latest. BUT when I asked if they'd give me documentation stating that everything is ok when they finish she said no and "it won't be necessary." She also declined to let me record them inspecting it (I already knew that would happen because of the whole "you cant record Feds..it affect their safety" thing.

I'd never heard of a prohibition on recording federal agents in the public execution of their duties. However, I get not raising a stink about it. If you have anymore dealings with them, I would at least keep a notebook handy. Log dates/times/locations, what the nature of the discussion was. Open any encounter with a federal agent by asking to inspect their Bs and Cs (Badge and Credentials). Presenting Bs and Cs should be their introduction to you anyway. Record the name, agency, and badge number.

The purpose of all this would be in case the mole hill becomes a mountain on you. If anything becomes a court case it can literally take years to navigate, and you may be asked to recall specific events which have long since passed. I'm not trying to be scary, just recommending a prudent measure given that any interaction with that agency could have extreme consequences in your life.

SilentScream
January 11, 2013, 01:23 PM
I would be leery of the ATF's tech lab, as they've been know to drastically modify weapons to get semi-auto firearms to fire in full auto, to get convictions in court.

psyopspec
January 11, 2013, 05:01 PM
I would be leery of the ATF's tech lab, as they've been know to drastically modify weapons to get semi-auto firearms to fire in full auto, to get convictions in court.


Source?

animator
January 11, 2013, 07:48 PM
03?

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
03 FFL. Collector of Curio and Relic Firearms. Agent's visit lasted maybe 5 minutes after learning that.

RetiredUSNChief
January 11, 2013, 07:49 PM
I would be leery of the ATF's tech lab, as they've been know to drastically modify weapons to get semi-auto firearms to fire in full auto, to get convictions in court.

The problem with attempting to do that under these circumstances, however, is that they don't have anything against the buyer.

If they tried that, the buy can simply provide his documentation of what it was he was purchasing and from whom.

The seller, if he's on the up-and-up, will have his own documentation on this.

There is very likely a fairly extensive trail on such a weapon which would be hard to refute.

JShirley
January 11, 2013, 08:03 PM
Belt-fed semis are something of a rarity. In any case, I'd never use that FFL again.

Legal advice isn't a bad idea, and documentation should be demanded by you. If the agents who interact with you refuse to provide it, go over their head- it's to CYA.

John

psyopspec
January 11, 2013, 08:04 PM
Were that a concern (in this case, if I were the FFL and not necessarily the OP), I'd take some pics and video of the gun in the condition it arrived in, making sure to note the SN and get good shots of the trigger group/sear.

d2wing
January 11, 2013, 08:48 PM
Until recently I was confident in the fairness of law enforcement. No more, anything for a conviction. Anything you say will be distorted and cause false charges that cost thousands and months to clear your name. If you clear your name.

medalguy
January 11, 2013, 11:01 PM
ball3006, you are incorrect. Both FA and semi fire from closed bolt always. The difference is that when the following rounds are chambered, the FA will continue to fire if the trigger is kept down, whereas the semi will not fire again. There's a spring in the trigger/sear that keeps the trigger from engaging the sear again until the trigger is released and then pulled again.

I know John McGuire, and I can assure you his builds are among, if not, the top builds out there. No way he would have cut corners or done a sloppy job and allowed a gun to malfunction and fire fully automatic.

Also I agree completely, get legal representation before talking with any BATF agents. Been there, done that several times as a Class III dealer a few years ago.

Deltaboy
January 11, 2013, 11:11 PM
Nice gun and get a new transfer guy.

B!ngo
January 11, 2013, 11:44 PM
If I were denied the Right to receive my legal semi-auto firearm I would certainly make sure to get write down their names/info from the identification and clearly ask if they are denying you the Right to receive your own property.

That being said, you mentioned tax stamp so maybe you live in an area where not everyone can own a semi-auto?

Either way, I wouldn't roll over on that, and I wouldn't care of the FFL owner after that.
When I read the OP's post, I interpreted the tax-stamp section as, 'if it was an auto I would be filing for a tax stamp...'. Unless the OP edited his post after some of you folks read it and before I did then I guess I just have a different interpretation.
But I do wonder under what grounds they can delay the transfer and hold the rifle under the guise of needing an inspection? I am not trying to be smug or uncooperative but, can a BAATF agent walk in to any firearms dealer and, while watching an authorized FFL engage in a sale or transfer, halt the process and sequester the item in question just because?
B

braxton14
January 11, 2013, 11:57 PM
The Agent had her boss inspect it (did the common sense >10 second check according to my friend that works at the shop). When I got there they apologized for the process and where on their way. She also gave me instructions on how to get an official letter from the ATF from their tech dept if i wanted (Id have to mail in my 1919A4, have them inspect it again).

Anyways, here she is (MG3 tripod, adapter, links, ammo on the way):

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x288/Stehson/IMG_1520_zpsa306fbdf.jpg

What she will look like after I get everything (but in 7.62x54R):

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x288/Stehson/2010_05090011_zps177cd766.jpg
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x288/Stehson/2010_05090010_zpsc38cc738.jpg

blarby
January 12, 2013, 12:00 AM
Run.........

To your lawyer.

STOP

Posting on the internet.

GET

A new FFL.

PURSUE

Any possible legal remedies against the current one. There has to be something here...has to be, right ? :D

RetiredUSNChief
January 12, 2013, 05:06 AM
In the meantime, what do you think the BATF would think of this classic assault weapon being auctioned off on ebay?

Better get your bid in quick...once Obama outlaws these babies you'll have a hard time getting your hands on one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Assault-Weapon-Cavemans-AR15-Assault-Rock-/160953713972?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item257996c534

:evil:

Romeo 33 Delta
January 12, 2013, 01:54 PM
medalguy ... The terms "open bolt" and "closed bolt" referred to the position of the bolt when the weapon is cocked and ready to fire. Of course, in order to go BANG, the bolt would have to be "closed". My position on this is drawn from years of experience with both semi, select fire and full auto firearms. One of my personal favorites, the FG42, operates as "closed bolt" for semi-auto fire and swtich to "open bolt" for full auto. And, yes, the M-1919s (if full auto) fire from an "open bolt"

Sam1911
January 12, 2013, 02:02 PM
The terms "open bolt" and "closed bolt" referred to the position of the bolt when the weapon is cocked and ready to fire. Of course, in order to go BANG, the bolt would have to be "closed".Certainly. However, the M1919 does indeed begin the firing cycle with the bolt fully closed.

MachIVshooter
January 12, 2013, 02:19 PM
Glad it all worked out for you.

I would NEVER use that FFL again, and I'd make it very clear why. If he's too stupid to know the difference between a title I and title II firearm, he's too stupid to be running a gun shop. Inconveniencing a legitimate customer this way is absolutely unacceptable, especially without a courtesy call to YOU voicing his concerns prior to an ATF phone call.

Deanimator
January 12, 2013, 02:52 PM
Certainly. However, the M1919 does indeed begin the firing cycle with the bolt fully closed.
I believe there's a South African 7.62x51mm version which fires from the open bolt to prevent cook-offs. Admittedly not a common variation, nor would a semi-auto version be likely to be approved.

col.lemat
January 12, 2013, 03:48 PM
Get another FFL dealer. AllBrowning Machineguns fire from a closed bolt except for the BAR

joeschmoe
January 12, 2013, 04:30 PM
What right do they have to delay the transfer "until they prove" it's not a machine gun? You cleared the NICS background check, then the transfer must happen.

There is no option to "further study" or demand more info, and ask you about other guns, etc.

It was a fishing expedition.

lonehunter
January 12, 2013, 05:30 PM
I am sorry guys, I don't see where the FFL did anything wrong! It should have been marked as semi auto only!

He thought he had a machine-gun in his shop, possibly being transferred illegally. What was he suppose to do just carry on with the transfer.

In the political climate after the school shooting, I would be extra careful, rather than risking his livelihood or worse!

Glad it all worked out.


Jeff

Deanimator
January 12, 2013, 05:42 PM
I am sorry guys, I don't see where the FFL did anything wrong! It should have been marked as semi auto only!
Really? Should all AR-15s and M-1As be marked the same way?

All Kalashnikovs?

And by the way, if I illegally shipped a full-auto MG-3 to that shop, if I marked it "semi-auto only", does that mean that they then SHOULDN'T check it?

wojownik
January 12, 2013, 07:28 PM
^ This. Plus, couldn't the FFL have just contacted the company sending the item, to find out what it exactly was that arrived?

But, FWIW, even before things got to that stage, shouldn't a buyer give an FFL the heads up at the very start on what would be arriving, especially if its something this interesting... ("hey, I want to order a really cool, semi-auto version of M1919 ... can you transfer it for me?")

bigmouth
January 12, 2013, 10:03 PM
Right, bureaucrats are like a septic tank, the big chunks just naturally rise to the top. Is that what you are referring to.

JShirley
January 12, 2013, 10:15 PM
woj, the OP indicated he had spoken to the FFL numerous times about it.

dcarch
January 12, 2013, 10:23 PM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Assault-Weap...item257996c534
Why is the current bid on this over 3000 dollars??? :what:

gym
January 12, 2013, 10:33 PM
Fools using hearsay based on rumor, the govt is full of them. They get paid for this also

AlexanderA
January 12, 2013, 10:46 PM
I recommend getting one of those sheet-metal feedway protectors if you're going to be running this gun with metal links, or else use cloth belts. Otherwise, the links will really scratch up the trunnion. This wasn't a concern in the military, but a civilian owner would probably want to protect his multi-thousand dollar investment.

wojownik
January 12, 2013, 11:27 PM
woj, the OP indicated he had spoken to the FFL numerous times about it.

Yes, I should have reviewed the OP's posts more closely. I'll stick with the other observation that the FFL could just have contacted the company sending the item. The FFL wasted his customer's time, worried him unnecessarily, and wasted some taxpayer dollars.

PONTIACDM
January 12, 2013, 11:42 PM
Did they ask you about the 2 revolvers you mentioned?

braxton14
January 13, 2013, 01:36 AM
Yea, it was pretty much in regards to the multiple handgun transfer that I mentioned earlier

BHP FAN
January 13, 2013, 01:41 AM
Glad it all worked out.

braxton14
January 22, 2013, 10:11 PM
Update: After finally reaching the ATF's Firearm Technology branch, I got transferred to a line with an automated message saying to mail them a letter with my questions and they'll try to get back to me within 6 weeks!

The agent that gave me the problem (and her boss) verified that its a semi and said that I'm good to go, but i still want some sort of letter from their firearm tech branch saying im cleared after they look at it (I'd have to mail the gun after contacting them). Ughhhh

Sam1911
January 22, 2013, 10:14 PM
I understand your desire to have a letter, but I doubt the practical value of it. Have you spoken to the manufacturer? He should be able to point you at the conversion plans he uses and probably keeps on file a letter from the BATFE explaining that his method (or whichever method he uses) of making the gun operate as semi-auto only is kosher.

I'd imagine he'd be a whole lot more responsive than the BATFE on this.

RetiredUSNChief
January 22, 2013, 10:28 PM
I'm with Sam1911 on this. Though I'm a big proponent of documentation in such encounters, this may rapidly reach the point of diminishing returns for you.

You've legally purchased this, presumably from a reputable dealer/person. That person, given the nature of this particular weapon, should have all the documention/details on it, right down to the serial number. In otherwords, there should be a verifiable paper trail all the way down to the point where you picked up the weapon at your LGS.

Simply keep a copy of all these records wherever it is that you keep other important papers.

braxton14
January 26, 2013, 07:46 PM
I dont have links or a cloth belt yet so I taped the bullets together and mocked it up onto the gun for the picture's sake haha.

I just need more ammo!

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/27/segabe2a.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/27/ny6ybyhe.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/27/avu8ahup.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/27/ydary8ehttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/27/asunaqyn.jpg8.jpg

Glad to have it and have the BS behind me!

wv109323
January 26, 2013, 10:03 PM
I reckon I may have myself into trouble. When they asked if it was full auto or semi-auto I would have said "Let's go out to the range and see if it goes full auto"

dcarch
January 26, 2013, 10:37 PM
Is that one of those dreaded barrel shrouds I see? For shame, good sir!

braxton14
January 26, 2013, 10:42 PM
yep..bullets come out of each of those hole simultaneously for maximum carnage

armoredman
January 26, 2013, 11:04 PM
Very nice toy, sir, glad it all worked out.

PedalBiker
January 26, 2013, 11:45 PM
Nice method for brass recovery!

MistWolf
January 27, 2013, 12:26 AM
Well,
If I saw one of these:

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x288/Stehson/get-attachment_zps23cf6b71.jpeg

I would assume it was a "machine gun" until proven otherwise.

Hello, McFly- Critical thinking time! Would a gunshop owner put his business in jeopardy by having an illegal machinegun in his shop out where everyone could see it?

PGT
January 27, 2013, 12:36 AM
that looks sweet! Glad it worked out ok for you. I think its reasonable for BATFE to want to inspect given how easy open bolt guns can (apparently) be converted.

Deanimator
January 27, 2013, 11:42 AM
that looks sweet! Glad it worked out ok for you. I think its reasonable for BATFE to want to inspect given how easy open bolt guns can (apparently) be converted.
Real Browning M1917 and M1919 MACHINE GUNS fire from a CLOSED bolt.

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