[blue32]

I've been thinking about a 1911 on and off since 2008. Started carrying full time in April of that year with mostly Glocks, similar semi autos, and a revolver now and then.

After concealing the G30 with two additional mags year round I'm starting to think a 1911 would be a nice change of pace. The big thing keeping me from having bought a 1911 thus far was the external safety - its one more thing to disengage when drawing.

Here's the question: Considering a 1911 with a series 80 firing system, would it be bad to carry it with the thumb safety disengaged? I figure keeping my finger off the trigger would be good enough (as it is with every other firearm I've carried)? If so, what other manual of arms am I missing that differ from say a Glock?

[ku4hx]

Based on the guns you listed as having experience with, you're used to fairly heavy triggers or guns that have internal safety features. Single action only semi autos generally have much lighter triggers. Not all, some are definitely harder and grittier, but generally a good quality 1911 has a fairly light trigger.

"Cocked and locked" for condition one is therefore recommended.

You can be safe with any gun in any condition under controlled circumstances. The problem is under stress you sometimes don't do exactly what you think you will or for that matter what you have practiced. Setting the safety is just one way of trying to reduce the likelihood of firing a gun when you really don't want to. But people have also been known to try repeated trigger pulls with the safety on. You have to practice, practice and practice some more.

[2wheels]

There are people who do it, but they're a pretty rare breed.

You can do it (very carefully!), but IMHO training to disengage the 1911s safety on the draw is so easy there's really no reason not to carry with the safety on.

The proper way to grip a 1911 places your thumb on top of the thumb safety anyways, so disengaging the safety is hardly an extra step. The people who think they'll forget to disengage the safety on a 1911, are the ones who don't train on 1911s.

[scaatylobo]

I carried a 1911 variant for many decades,and did so in all manner of positions.

Including "mexican" carry,inside the pants with no holster [ still do it for deep concealment ].

That means you must [ ok,should ] have the safety engaged and the gun at full cock [ bet that word is deleted - so its c@ck ].

Use and TRAIN with safety on at all times and for all shots and it becomes second nature.

I do not need to carry that design daily to remember to use the proper grip and the safety removal,its muscle memory.

[JTQ]

You can do whatever you want.

Some people drive without wearing their seat belts fastened, some like to ride around on the highway in the bed of a pickup truck, some carry a 1911 with the hammer cocked and the safety off. They do all these things for years and never have an accident or get hurt. I suppose there are instances where I may find a need to do any of them, but I choose not to because I personally think they are all a bad idea. If I have a safety device available, I'll use it.

I'm always fascinated by the Glock guys who are all smart enough to not shoot themselves with a gun that has no real practical safety device. However, they are all concerned they aren't smart enough to simply disengage the safety on a 1911. Something, by the way, that people have successfully been doing since before Gaston Glock was born. If you're smart enough to not shoot yourself with a Glock, you're smart enough to figure out how to disengage the thumb safety on a 1911.

[CPshooter]

The proper way to grip a 1911 places your thumb on top of the thumb safety anyways, so disengaging the safety is hardly an extra step. The people who think they'll forget to disengage the safety on a 1911, are the ones who don't train on 1911s.Who says this is the proper way? I personally cannot stand this grip and get goosebumps whenever I see people using it. Taking my thumb off of the left grip panel (where I personally think it should be) and placing it on top of the thumb safety causes the web of my hand to lift off of the grip safety just a bit. This totally takes away from the support your shooting hand has on the back of the grip to tame the recoil. Getting high on the grip at the expensive of a good grip on back strap of the gun does not seem like a good way to shoot a 1911. Applying sideways pressure to the left side of the grip with your support hand (assuming RH shooter) does not solve the problem of having less meat on that back strap.

As for carrying cocked w/ the safety off, I actually started a thread about that here a long time ago and it went on for several pages. I personally do not see a problem with it when you consider the internal FPB mechanism and the grip safety. Others aren't so comfortable with the idea.

[JTQ]

For CPshooter here is a a link easily found in 9mmepiphany's signature block on how to grip a 1911.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDzC6djUQxM&list=PL4A7B6673C06A967E&index=2&feature=plpp_video

However, as I said to the OP - You can do whatever you want. We're all big boys (or girls) here.

[MikeJackmin]

I'd be very careful putting her back into the holster.

[Jenrick]

I'm not familiar with the series 80 firing pin safety. If it completely blocks forward movement of the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled, then I'd say you could carry it in that manner without any major issues. As noted be REAL careful when you holster though.

One thing you can do to help mitigate any concern about not disengaging the safety, is simply disengage it as you achieve a firing grip. This is not my preferred method, or one I teach professionally, but it is an option. Very simple to do as well.

-Jenrick

[bannockburn]

Jenrick

Colts Series 80 firing pin block basically prevents the gun from firing should it be dropped or else there's some sort of internal parts failure. Rearward pressure on the trigger causes two sear levers to engage and pivot until they cause the firing pin lock plunger to move out of it's position so the firing pin is free to travel foward and strike the primer.

[9mmepiphany]

Who says this is the proper way? I personally cannot stand this grip and get goosebumps whenever I see people using it.
Well, proper is a relative term. However, if you understood why it is taught that the thumb should ride the thumb safety, it might make more sense.

For target shooters, or those concerned more with accuracy, it is a technique to avoid pressure on the left grip to avoid pushing shoots off to the left. for less skilled shooters, it also avoids unintended lateral pressure from where the backstrap meets the web of the hand.

For defensive or action shooters, it is a technique to avoid stoppages during a string of fire. If you place your thumb below the thumb safety lever, it has been found that you thumb tend to ride up and flip the safety on while the gun is in recoil

Taking my thumb off of the left grip panel (where I personally think it should be) and placing it on top of the thumb safety causes the web of my hand to lift off of the grip safety just a bit. This totally takes away from the support your shooting hand has on the back of the grip to tame the recoil. Getting high on the grip at the expensive of a good grip on back strap of the gun does not seem like a good way to shoot a 1911. Applying sideways pressure to the left side of the grip with your support hand (assuming RH shooter) does not solve the problem of having less meat on that back strap.
Actually it doesn't, the web of your hand is actually pressed tighter into the bottom of the beavertail as you raise your thumb. You have the same amount of "meat" in contact with the backstrap.

What you are losing is the ability to press forward and exert pressure (grip) with you thumb. But then you shouldn't be doing this anyway as the pocket created at the web of your hand's only function is to provide a seat for the backstrap as the fingers pull the frame into your hand.

The other adverse affect of a thumb below the thumb safety is that it compromised the support hand contact with the gun. Either the support hand is forced lower by the thumb (the support thumb should be just below and parallel to the bottom of the slide) or it has to grip over the strong thumb which doesn't allow as much lateral pressure

You can grip the gun anyway you'd like, but it would be a disservice to less knowledgeable readers to not explain the optimal technique

[rcmodel]

would it be bad to carry it with the thumb safety disengaged?Yes, it would be bad.

A 1911 is different then a Glock due to the fact a decent 1911 will have a crisp, short 3 1/2 pound trigger pull with no over-travel or backlash.
Unlike a Glocks heavy mushy 5 1/5 pound trigger.

If you snag an off-safe 1911 trigger while holstering, or tag it with a finger while drawing, there WILL be Unintended Consequences!

Once you shoot one, you will see forgetting to take the safety off a 1911 is about as hard to do as forgetting to put your junk back in your pants before zipping them up!!

rc

[Jenrick]

A 1911 is different then a Glock due to the fact a decent 1911 will have a crisp, short 3 1/2 pound trigger pull with no over-travel or backlash.
Unlike a Glocks heavy mushy 5 1/5 pound trigger.

I disagree with this statement in the overall intent, not the content. A stock Glock trigger I agree has more travel and a higher weight then a 1911, no question. However there are multiple aftermarket kits that dramatically reduce the Glock trigger weight, length of pull extra. Also there are several other pistols, such as the H&K LEM, where the weight of the trigger pull is around 4-5 lbs, and the take up while long is EXTREMELY light (basically an oz or two). These type of triggers also have the same issue as a 1911 trigger, in that snagging something can activate them.

-Jenrick

[CPshooter]

Well, proper is a relative term. However, if you understood why it is taught that the thumb should ride the thumb safety, it might make more sense.

For target shooters, or those concerned more with accuracy, it is a technique to avoid pressure on the left grip to avoid pushing shoots off to the left. for less skilled shooters, it also avoids unintended lateral pressure from where the backstrap meets the web of the hand.

For defensive or action shooters, it is a technique to avoid stoppages during a string of fire. If you place your thumb below the thumb safety lever, it has been found that you thumb tend to ride up and flip the safety on while the gun is in recoil


Actually it doesn't, the web of your hand is actually pressed tighter into the bottom of the beavertail as you raise your thumb. You have the same amount of "meat" in contact with the backstrap.

What you are losing is the ability to press forward and exert pressure (grip) with you thumb. But then you shouldn't be doing this anyway as the pocket created at the web of your hand's only function is to provide a seat for the backstrap as the fingers pull the frame into your hand.

The other adverse affect of a thumb below the thumb safety is that it compromised the support hand contact with the gun. Either the support hand is forced lower by the thumb (the support thumb should be just below and parallel to the bottom of the slide) or it has to grip over the strong thumb which doesn't allow as much lateral pressure

You can grip the gun anyway you'd like, but it would be a disservice to less knowledgeable readers to not explain the optimal technique
While I do appreciate you taking the time to explain why that grip technique is supposed to work, I'm just not buying it. I just took the pics below. Notice how in the 2nd picture, you can see part of the grip safety. I can feel what you were talking about with pushing higher up into the grip safety, but that doesn't make up for the lack of support on the REAR of the grip safety. IME, the support hand needs to come in from the side and apply pressure to the 3 fingers below the shooting thumb. The thumb of the shooting hand itself can apply the necessary pressure to stabilize from the left. The support hand only needs to apply pressure below the thumb, where there is not enough support. I think the problem here is that with the "thumbs forward" shooting technique, sure you can bring your support hand in and put pressure on the entire left side of the grip, but you are still essentially pinching the gun between your two hands and leaving that crucial part of the back strap unsupported.

It just seems silly to teach a pistol shooting technique as the one and only "proper" technique when it may or may not work with other pistols that have different controls and/or ergonomics. Heck, it doesn't even work for me on the 1911 and there is nothing strange or unusual about my hands (other than being pretty hairy lol).

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n106/TonyG749/iPhoneUpload-7.jpg

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n106/TonyG749/iPhoneUpload-6.jpg

[2wheels]

@CPshooter

Maybe I was wrong for using an absolute term to describe the way I was taught to grip a 1911. But it makes sense in at least a couple ways. As 9mm pointed out, it's possible to engage the safety while shooting if you keep your thumb under the safety. I've seen it happen to people shooting my 1911s, when I tell them to ride the safety the problem goes away. It also makes sense to me to train myself to place my thumb there automatically, it makes disengaging the safety less of an extra step and more of a natural motion when gripping and drawing the pistol.

If it doesn't work for you then it doesn't work for you and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's pretty much the only way I've seen anyone teach to grip a 1911.

[9mmepiphany]

While I do appreciate you taking the time to explain why that grip technique is supposed to work, I'm just not buying it. I just took the pics below. Notice how in the 2nd picture, you can see part of the grip safety. I can feel what you were talking about with pushing higher up into the grip safety, but that doesn't make up for the lack of support on the REAR of the grip safety. IME, the support hand needs to come in from the side and apply pressure to the 3 fingers below the shooting thumb. The thumb of the shooting hand itself can apply the necessary pressure to stabilize from the left. The support hand only needs to apply pressure below the thumb, where there is not enough support. I think the problem here is that with the "thumbs forward" shooting technique, sure you can bring your support hand in and put pressure on the entire left side of the grip, but you are still essentially pinching the gun between your two hands and leaving that crucial part of the back strap unsupported.
This is the only picture I have of a frame mounted thumb safety, but I think you get the idea.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/9mmepiphany/Gripping%20the%20gun/grip056.jpg

...The support hand comes in and fills all the empty area under the thumb

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/9mmepiphany/Gripping%20the%20gun/grip063.jpg

It just seems silly to teach a pistol shooting technique as the one and only "proper" technique when it may or may not work with other pistols that have different controls and/or ergonomics. Heck, it doesn't even work for me on the 1911 and there is nothing strange or unusual about my hands (other than being pretty hairy lol).
I would never teach it as "the one and only". I just teach it as the goal as I feel it is optimized for fast and accurate shooting

Here is the same grip on my M&P9
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/9mmepiphany/Gripping%20the%20gun/grip052.jpg

...and what it allows me to do

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/9mmepiphany/TangBrass.jpg

The first two rounds have stuck the target, at ~12 yards, about 3" apart and I have transitioned to the next target...with both cases still above the slide

[blue32]

Thanks for the replies. They were what I expected but wanted some more opinions. Good points about holstering with a light trigger. I'll stick with my Glocks for now. I'll always have something close to a 1911 for the range.