Say I buy a 1911 with same features from Colt, Sig, Ruger, Smith.. Will I see a diff?


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wacki
January 6, 2013, 01:53 PM
Say I buy a pistol with the exact same external features from:


Sig Sauer
Colt
Smith & Wesson
Springfield
Wilson Combat
Ed Brown
Ruger


Will the average shooter be able to tell a difference? If so, where will the differences show up? And how dramatic will the differences be?

Just trying to figure out if the huge price differences are justified from a practical perspective.

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wickedsprint
January 6, 2013, 02:09 PM
Say I buy a pistol with the exact same external features from:


Sig Sauer
Colt
Smith & Wesson
Springfield
Wilson Combat
Ed Brown
Ruger


Will the average shooter be able to tell a difference? If so, where will the differences show up? And how dramatic will the differences be?

Just trying to figure out if the huge price differences are justified from a practical perspective.

Nothing wrong with any of the brands you listed.

You won't be able to magically shoot a $2000 1911 better than a $500 1911.

A $2000 1911 won't be necessarily be more reliable than a $500 1911.

You *might* notice some minor cosmetic / QC differences if side by side and you know what to look for.

rswartsell
January 6, 2013, 02:19 PM
SOME of the reasons for additional cost in the myriad world of 1911s from multiple producers using differing components and methods are directly attributed to increased reliability, accuracy and durability. Some are cosmetic or subjective. I believe the most successful efforts toward these goals (accuracy, reliability, durability) would be apparent to the average shooter if least is compared to best.

Some degrees of increased accuracy for example can be lost on shooters who do not posses the necessary skill to realize them. Some may be immediately apparent to anyone. Your question covers too much ground for too many variables and options to be answered definitively. The average shooter can indeed pay pretty big bucks for refinements they will never need or appreciate. Conversely, many may never know how good the 1911 platform can be because the examples they are familiar with cut too many corners. All a matter of education, experience and degree.

Coltdriver
January 6, 2013, 02:25 PM
So a 1911 is, IMNSHO, the most tunable pistol out there. Nothing I can think of comes close. You can build one from all custom parts from frame and slide down to the smallest parts.

In my experience, the more you tune it the better it is to a degree. But the problem has always been keeping it tuned.

In reality it would not be possible for you to get the exact same features on pistols from those makers to compare. That is because little details, like ramp, and extractor shape and dozens of other details have all been done slightly differently between each of those makes when you are looking at their high end offerings.

If you compare pistols from the makers you listed you may note a detail here and a detail there in differences. Would there be an overwhelming difference? Probably not. Is there one you might like better, sure.

But in the end what is better than a 1911 that goes bang every time and that you can hit a pie plate with at 25 feet? Really not much. And the truth is you can get that, arguably more reliably, in a good old, loose, bone stock GI class model from a reputable maker. Don't confuse junk with quality just because the profile of the pistols is the same.

There are many strong advocates for the old 1911 platform. I have owned a few and I have a Colt Officers today. But I take it for what it is, a 1911 platform.

If you want utter reliability and a modern battery of arms there are many of those out there. If I were off to war and had to take a .45 I would definitely not take a 1911. Now we're going to hear from everyone who absolutely loves the 1911 and swears they are better than anything out there etc.....

So why put $1000 or more into a 1911? Because you have it to spend and you like it. It gets down to your personal likes and dislikes.

litman252
January 6, 2013, 02:42 PM
Yes, you will notice differences. Not necessarily from make to make but even from model to model. I have a Sistema up through a Dan Wesson and a SA that was tweaked by a pistolsmith and some in between. The smoothness and crispness of its function is what you notice. Insert a mag and rack the slide, there its a difference. How it travels in your hand during recoil is different. But my second least expensive is 90% of my most expensive at 40% of the cost....

YMMV

Tony

khegglie
January 6, 2013, 02:44 PM
Good question; Great answers.

wacki
January 6, 2013, 02:48 PM
But my second least expensive is 90% of my most expensive at 40% of the cost....


I don't get this. Explain please.

Are you saying that the profit margins on a $1000 pistol is a lot slimmer than the profit margins on a $900 pistol?

rswartsell
January 6, 2013, 02:56 PM
IMHO the reasons that I like the 1911 so much have nothing to do with it being a superior combat weapon to more modern alternatives. It is because the ergonomic experience of shooting them is unique in the handgun world. The combination of grip feel, control ergos, pointability and sweet trigger form a symbiotic relationship that creates a shooting experince that I prefer and has not been duplicated. There are plenty of ways to pick the 101 year old platform apart and I won't disgree or argue with most of them.

That does not eliminate the fact that it served for many years successfully and feels like no other handgun. I shoot with good ones as reliably and well as anything I have experienced. That does not equate to irrational loyalty, "fanboyism" or ignorance of new developments.

litman252
January 6, 2013, 03:22 PM
You get 90% of a great 1911 (accuracy, function) by spending 40% of that on a good basic 1911.

A rugger can do at least 90% of the Ed Brown at (approx) 40% the money.

But that last 10% is awesome, can't put it in words!

JMHO
Tony

wow6599
January 6, 2013, 03:25 PM
Will the average shooter be able to tell a difference?

IMHO, no. You can take a $1000 Kimber and a $3000 Ed Brown to someone who isn't a "1911 connoisseur", and they won't know the difference.

JTQ
January 6, 2013, 03:36 PM
The car analogy is often a good one.

"Hey, why should I buy this BMW that costs $20,000 more than my Hyundi? The spec sheet says my Hyundi has all the same features as the BMW."

Sure there is some of that, pride of ownership, and name brand stuff going on, but if you've driven the two, and enjoy driving cars, you can tell why one costs more. That extra cost may not be worth it to you for how you like to drive your cars, but if you really like to drive cars, and you've got the money, that BMW will most likely be worth the price difference.

buckhorn_cortez
January 6, 2013, 03:38 PM
If you'e a shooter that can use and discern the differences - yes, you can tell the difference in pistols.

For example, I have a semi-custom that was built with the set of features that I wanted, and they all make the gun better for me to use.

4-inch slide / full size grip (Commander size) - my preference in a carry size.

Extreme dehorning - gun is easier to holster and unholster.

Strong side only safety - my preference.

Adjustable combat rear sight with tritium inserts / tritium front sight - my preference in sights with yellow / green dots.

Magazine well - my preference for easier magazine changes.

Serrated slide top - my preference as it cuts down on glare in some lighting conditions and makes the front sight easier to see.

Rear of slide checkered - my preference as it makes the sight easier to see in some lighting conditions (back of slide appears 'blacker").

Trigger guard / frame under cut - my preference as I can grip the gun higher.

Front and rear of grip frame checkered - my preference for better grip.

Does any of that make it cyle ammunition any better? No. Do the features make the gun function better for me? Yes.

There are other internal features that make the gun run better. It has a coned bull barrel with a full length guide rod and no barrel bushing. The heavier barrel makes follow up shots faster as the recoil is slightly less. The full length guide rod is used by the manufacturer to ensure reliability.

I asked for the barrel to be fluted so that any crud would collect in the flutes and not affect the gun's functioning. Does that work? Yes, the crud/dirt collects in the flutes.

Is the gun fit better than lower priced pistols? Yes. Does this affect the functionality? Probably the accuracy, as the barrel lockup is tighter and more consistent shot-to-shot.

The gun puts the ejected brass into a 5-foot diameter circle, so the extraction / ejection is extremely consistent.

But, really -what does all of this mean? All it means is that I have a well tuned, accurate, 1911 that is setup exactly the way I want the pistol. Does it "shoot better" than a lower price production pistol?

It functions exactly to my requirements because of its features - so, yes it is a "better pistol" for my use.

Is it more accurate? No. There are production pistols that are just as accurate.

Is it more reliable than a production pistol? Probably not if you buy a good quality production pistol that you prove as reliable through shooting it.

Is it worth the extreme cost? For me - yes. For many other people - probably no.

Do you get what you pay for? Yes, but it's a diminishing returns type of equation. You end up paying a lot for features that are far into the personal preference area, and for many people they aren't worth the extra money as they don't affect the gun's accuracy or ability to cycle rounds.

Is the Supergade worth $4K more than a Dan Wesson Valor? For accuracy and reliability probably - no. For personal functionality features - yes.

In the end - as always, it's a personal value judgement that only you can make.

tarosean
January 6, 2013, 03:50 PM
If so, where will the differences show up? And how dramatic will the differences be?

Fit, finish, edges, MIM parts..

It can range from what looks like a 3yro was let loose with a can of krylon, to a thing of beauty. Subtle checkering differences can make a huge difference in feel too.
If you have the chance to compare them all side by side you might answer your own questions.

bannockburn
January 6, 2013, 03:51 PM
I think litman252 hit it on the head: try going to a gunshop that has a decent selection of M1911's and check them out. That's what I did awhile back when I bought my Colt Lightweight Government.

How smoothly does the slide travel on the frame, how tight is the slide to frame fit and the barrel to slide fit, how well does the grip safety and the thumb safety engage and how's the trigger pull? Does the gun seem like it's fairly well assembled or are there a lot of rough spots and cosmetic issues to deal with. With a little help and if you know what to look for, odds are nowadays you'll probably get a good one at whatever price point you're considering. How much you want to spend is of course entirely up to you.

Auto426
January 6, 2013, 04:33 PM
Litman252 is right. In the 1911 world, there is such a thing as a point of diminishing returns. It seems that once you get past the $1000 mark, you start paying large sums of money for relatively small gains in performance or fit and finish.

As far as the individual makers listed in the first post, yes, you will find differences in all of them, but not all of those differences will be extremely obvious to the uninformed. For example, the quality of steels used in the gun's construction varies by maker, but that isn't something that will jump out at you if you see all those guns laying side by side on a table.

Sam Cade
January 6, 2013, 06:26 PM
IMHO, no. You can take a $1000 Kimber and a $3000 Ed Brown to someone who isn't a "1911 connoisseur", and they won't know the difference.

This has been my experience as well. Substituting a $550 STI Spartan for the Kimber.

1858
January 6, 2013, 10:47 PM
A $2000 1911 won't be necessarily be more reliable than a $500 1911.


You will always find exceptions, but in general the majority of $2,000 1911s should be more reliable, more accurate, contain superior parts and exhibit better fit and finish than the majority of $500 1911s. Not only will they be more reliable from day 1, they'll be more reliable after 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 or even 20,000 rounds. Other differences may not show up for the casual user, but if you're going to push the pistols hard you'll have better results with any 1911 from Wilson Combat, Les Baer, Ed Brown etc. Of course you can find folks like 1911Tuner who will tinker with a $300 bare bones pistol and report that it's run without issues for tens of thousands of rounds but that's not comparing apples to apples.

When you consider how many hours go into 1911s from Ed Brown, Les Baer, Wilson Combat, Nighthawk Custom, etc. and then consider how many minutes go into Kimbers, Colts, Rugers, S&Ws, SIGs, etc. I think you're getting more for your money with the high end semi-custom offerings.

wickedsprint
January 7, 2013, 12:41 AM
You will always find exceptions, but in general the majority of $2,000 1911s should be more reliable, more accurate, contain superior parts and exhibit better fit and finish than the majority of $500 1911s. Not only will they be more reliable from day 1, they'll be more reliable after 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 or even 20,000 rounds. Other differences may not show up for the casual user, but if you're going to push the pistols hard you'll have better results with any 1911 from Wilson Combat, Les Baer, Ed Brown etc. Of course you can find folks like 1911Tuner who will tinker with a $300 bare bones pistol and report that it's run without issues for tens of thousands of rounds but that's not comparing apples to apples.

When you consider how many hours go into 1911s from Ed Brown, Les Baer, Wilson Combat, Nighthawk Custom, etc. and then consider how many minutes go into Kimbers, Colts, Rugers, S&Ws, SIGs, etc. I think you're getting more for your money with the high end semi-custom offerings.

Valid, but not guaranteed.

huntershooter
January 7, 2013, 06:56 PM
The "average Joe" would most certainly be able to see and feel a difference between the Brown and Wilson gun over the others you've listed.

Pilot
January 7, 2013, 07:18 PM
I have Colts and Springfields with similar features, and yes I feel a difference. I can't put my finger on it, both are essentially basic 1911's, both are accurate and reliable. I prefer the way the Colt "feels" for some reason. I have heard the specs may be a little different from 1911 brands, so maybe that is it. Maybe it is just the picture of the horse, who knows.

Fishbed77
January 8, 2013, 12:28 PM
One thing to consider:

Buying the Colt will make you feel much manlier.

Not that you'l actually BE any manlier, but the feeling is worth something. :)

Hammerdown77
January 8, 2013, 12:49 PM
Even the average Joe should be able to tell a difference between a Wilson Combat gun and any of the others in that list. Now whether he can shoot to its potential is another question entirely.

Skylerbone
January 9, 2013, 02:54 AM
I don't know who this "average shooter" is but I do know there are differences and many should be rather obvious. Can you differentiate between 80 grit and 320 grit sandpaper? How about the difference between a hand winch with cog and a Shimano ball bearing reel? Can you spot a clean straight line vs. a wavy jagged edge?

What may escape the casual tire kicker are some rather important features. A shallow or narrow feed ramp that is polished up might have you thinking smooth feeder until it jams. An over-cut breech face takes a surgeon to repair. Too long an extractor can snap off the tip. A poorly staked plunger tube can tie up the gun.

There are intricacies that simply cannot be explored thoroughly on an assembly line. While common sense might reason the guy who fits 10,000 slides and frames together every year ought to do it better than a pistolsmith building 30 a year, that same belief would lead us to believe a McDonalds burger ought to taste better than anything a Master Chef could ever whip up. Anyone who appreciates leather over cloth can appreciate quality material. Anyone who appreciates a fully adjustable leather chair over a ridged wingback can appreciate comfort.

mljdeckard
January 9, 2013, 04:34 AM
I THINK, the law of diminishing returns kicks in at about $1000 for 1911s. After that point, yes, you will get some degree of improvement, but it probably won't be proportional to the cost. I shot a Nighthawk at a rental range, and it was good, but it also jammed on me. I have absolutely no idea what it is supposed to do for more than three times the price. It's like Vincent Vega's $5 milkshake in Pulp Fiction. "The might be the best milkshake I've ever tasted. But it ain't worth five dollars."

mljdeckard
January 9, 2013, 04:40 AM
Double-tap

19-3Ben
January 9, 2013, 08:46 AM
IMHO, no. You can take a $1000 Kimber and a $3000 Ed Brown to someone who isn't a "1911 connoisseur", and they won't know the difference.

The very first 1911 that I ever shot was a Wilson Combat CQB. I could tell from the moment it was laid on the table in front of me that it was dripping with quality, hand fit, and just absolutely a drop-dead gorgeous pistol.
The next 1911 I shot was a Springfield Loaded. My initial impression was "this is a really nice gun, but not like the Wilson."

If you have an eye for quality and you know what to look for, the difference is apparent.

Skylerbone
January 9, 2013, 07:05 PM
I think a of a well built 1911 as a race car with a luxury car's suspension with 4-wheel drive that's built like a tank. It's sleek, it's smooth, it runs in adverse conditions and it survives hard use.

The sub-$1,000 crowd simply cannot offer all of that in the same package. At least, in my opinion, no manufacturer currently does.

wickedsprint
January 9, 2013, 11:30 PM
I think a of a well built 1911 as a race car with a luxury car's suspension with 4-wheel drive that's built like a tank. It's sleek, it's smooth, it runs in adverse conditions and it survives hard use.

The sub-$1,000 crowd simply cannot offer all of that in the same package. At least, in my opinion, no manufacturer currently does.

Except it doesn't perform like a race car.

The 1911 is like a 1900s work truck. Sure it can still carry your groceries and wood and be entertaining to run but there are far more efficient and modern designs for cheaper.

Skylerbone
January 10, 2013, 12:18 AM
I'd bet most of those "modern" pistols would choke long before my EDC and yes, it feeds hollow points. It's far sleeker than any design I can think of and cycles smoother than ball bearings on an ice covered slope. As for efficiency, do you mean modern pistols can be injected into molds faster or they're more efficient at being less efficient with ammo? I don't consider being able to shoot 33 rounds without a magazine change efficiency, rather it denotes a lack of proficiency.

mljdeckard
January 10, 2013, 02:30 AM
My Kimber has a hand-fitted slide. And the Nighthawk I shot jammed in two magazines. I don't remember the last time my Kimber jammed. I paid $630 for it, NIB.

JTQ
January 10, 2013, 08:30 AM
wickedsprint wrote,
Except it doesn't perform like a race car.

The 1911 is like a 1900s work truck. Sure it can still carry your groceries and wood and be entertaining to run but there are far more efficient and modern designs for cheaper.
I'll give you the "modern designs for cheaper". However, in competitive shooting sports, "the race guns" are almost all 1911 based. They are faster.

1858
January 10, 2013, 10:52 AM
My Kimber has a hand-fitted slide. And the Nighthawk I shot jammed in two magazines. I don't remember the last time my Kimber jammed. I paid $630 for it, NIB.

Is this what passes for evidence these days? You're comparing the performance of one pistol that you RENTED to your personal one!!! You have no idea of the history of that Nighthawk and yet you're prepared to imply that Nighthawks or other $2,000 + 1911s aren't worth the money. :rolleyes:

farm23
January 10, 2013, 11:52 AM
First I shoot better with a 1911 Kimber than with my Son's Glock or a friend's cheap off brand 1911. I also shoot some better with another friend's Ed Brown. I do not shoot competitively so I own the Kimber and not the Ed Brown and it does enough for me. If I had more money I would own a custom 1911.

460Kodiak
January 10, 2013, 01:16 PM
My first, and so far only 1911 is a 5" no rail S&W E Series, in stainless. I payed $825 before taxes. It is beautiful, but, the fun part to me is that I am now spending the money needed slowly to turn it into a real looker, and also to make it truely reliable. I like taking a pickup truck, and turning it into a beautiful, moderately fancy, but practical machine.

There is nothing wrong with buying a lower end 1911 and turning it into a $2000 shooter. At the same time, if you have $2000 to $3000 of money to spend, there is nothing wrong with splurging on a Nighthawk.

tarosean
January 10, 2013, 01:59 PM
one pistol that you RENTED to your personal one!!! You have no idea of the history of that Nighthawk and yet you're prepared to imply that Nighthawks or other $2,000 + 1911s aren't worth the money.

I was thinking the same thing. Ive shot a T3 Comp, Falcon, Heine and never had any problems at all. However, when it was time to put my money where my mouth is, I opted for Brown and Wilson when looking at the semi-custom makers.

Is my Colt LW Commander in the same league as my Wilson Professional?? No
While they are the same "type" of gun the subtle changes and nuances that make a huge difference. Does it do the same job flawlessly? Yes
Neither compare to Browns aesthetics though.

FWIW my next 1911 will likely be a Springer TRP.

mljdeckard
January 10, 2013, 02:29 PM
So....I should BUY one based on that experience? All I'm saying is, all machines fail eventually.

Skylerbone
January 10, 2013, 03:59 PM
All I'm saying is, all machines fail eventually.

That is the reality of things but...some 1911s will beat themselves to death with every round and some will operate as designed lasting hundreds of thousands of rounds. There will always be freak breakages with any price point though better makes minimize the chances.

mljdeckard
January 10, 2013, 04:26 PM
I don't belive that the extra cost is anywhere NEAR the return in quality.

Skylerbone
January 10, 2013, 06:54 PM
And yet people believe a Glock is worth 250% more than a Hi Point. I do think a Glock is at least that much better and I'm not a Glock owner. However; both do the same thing, have some similarity of features, are ugly and, by user feedback are reliable so is the disparity in perceived value so great as to warrant such blatant highway robbery given diminishing returns? Again as with some 1911s my answer would be an emphatic YES!

buckhorn_cortez
January 10, 2013, 07:23 PM
I don't belive that the extra cost is anywhere NEAR the return in quality.

Depends on the pistol. If you buy a high quality, production 1911 it will function as well as a semi-custom or custom pistol. However, functioning is not handling. There are features and designs available in the semi-custom and custom pistols that make the pistol tailored to the user, and it handles better for them.

If you took the high quality production pistol and added all of the "extras" found on the custom or semi-custom - you'd end up at nearly the same price or more in parts, labor, and finishing.

As someone who has owned a variety of 1911's since 1982 - I can tell you that if you choose a pistol with features tailored for your personal use - the pistol is worth every penny.

BigJimP
January 10, 2013, 07:35 PM
Yes, you'll see a difference in "fit and finish" and how smooth the gun feels when you rack the slide...and how the trigger feels as it breaks, resets - and in no slack and certainly no creep ...on upper end 1911's ...( and in your list that means Wilson Combat and Ed Brown) ....both companies in my opinion, are 2 of the very best in 1911's....

not that your other choices are bad guns...they aren't....but neither are they likely to be Wilson's or Brown's....

You will also see a difference - after 25,000 ...and 50,000 rds thru the upper end guns like Wilson Combat ....where they will still feel just like they did when they were new out of the box.

Wilson Combat also comes with a lifetime of the gun warranty ...even as a used gun - and even Brown won't give you that! I think Wilson's people are easier to deal with ...and they know their products.

I have a pair of Wilsons...one broke an extractor ...after 40,000 rds or so ...and wilson paid shipping both ways, fixed it - sent it back within 10 calendar days...checked the gun out, re-polished the ramp -- just little stuff...but mostly I was impressed that an extractor was covered...and that I got it back so quickly. I shoot that gun a lot ...and its one of the best guns in my safe...and its about 7 yrs old now.

I have one Ed Brown...and its a nice gun .../ but not better than either of my Wilsons.

orionengnr
January 10, 2013, 07:37 PM
As always, this has devolved into an "I like/don't like 1911s" thread or a "My XYZ is better than a 1911" thread.

Unfortunate, but seemingly inevitable.

Hope the OP got a satisfactory answer early on.

1858
January 12, 2013, 07:45 PM
I don't belive that the extra cost is anywhere NEAR the return in quality.


And what experience do you have with high-end 1911s other than a Nighthawk rental? I have three Ed Browns, two Dan Wessons and two Kimbers. I've shot thousands of rounds through them, some under match conditions, and I'll state emphatically that an Ed Brown is worth every single dollar of the purchase price. But that's just my opinion based on actually owning and shooting 1911s ranging from $1,000 to $2,700. I'll readily admit that I don't have much experience with $500 1911s although I've seen a bunch (and shot some) in USPSA matches. I do remember one match in which a new shooter had the extractor break on his new $1,400 Springfield TRP ... temporarily fixed with a spare extractor "tuned" for my Kimber. Regardless of this event, I would have no problem recommending a TRP to anyone looking for a good 1911 because my experience with that model goes beyond one USPSA match. The casual observer might be on a forum like this warning everyone to stay away from Springfield.

witchhunter
January 12, 2013, 09:48 PM
It is like comparing apples and oranges. Shoot a couple of hundred rounds through a Wilson, then pick up an "off the shelf" low end 1911. If you are a shooter, you will long for the spendier version. You will not be satisfied with a basic model. However, you may reach a point short of the spendier model that you can live with. Sights, trigger, grips, you can build whatever you want as you can afford it. The 1911 is a great platform.

Swichblade
January 13, 2013, 02:27 AM
I have not fired any low end 1911s, but once at the range I was firing a Sig Sauer 1911 then a man offered to let me shoot his Kimber. They looked entirely different, but felt the same when firing, well, except the Kimber didn't have the lanyard loop in the bottom of the grip that cuts into the hand.

Buckeyeguy525
January 13, 2013, 07:57 PM
You won't see a difference....they will all be overpriced and unreliable

mljdeckard
January 14, 2013, 12:12 AM
I've shot Browns, Baers, Wilsons, etc.

I never said they weren't better. I said that the difference isn't proportional to the cost.

I also think that there is a certain amount of willingness to justify high-dollar purchases, just the same as low-cost options.

wickedsprint
January 14, 2013, 10:48 AM
Also, these posters that notice a difference probably have a lot of time behind a 1911. They will be more sensitive to subtle changes than the "average joe".

Skylerbone
January 14, 2013, 12:48 PM
Give the average joe some credit, if he can decipher which blackstrap feels better on a G17 half the battle is won.

As for initial cost, if you keep your 1911 for a lifetime, figure 100,000 rounds is a good time for most to be overhauled. If you chose a $1,000 Kimber the cost to fire would be .01 plus the ammo for each shot. If you chose a $1,800 Les Baer it would be .018 and .025 for a Wilson or Brown. So .015/round (that's 1.5 pennies) buys you a nice looking, expertly fitted, match grade 1911 with a lifetime warranty over an inferior, and IMO Kimber is when compared to Brown or Wilson or Baer, 1911 with a warranty that is I believe now 3 years.

Many are fine as a base for custom builds but they will cost every bit as much without retaining the resale value.

BigJimP
January 14, 2013, 01:00 PM
Higher end 1911's ....especially from Wilson Combat ....are sure not unreliable...../ overpriced, well I guess that depends on your perspective of value.

I think of value over the long term...and Wilson Combat, as an example, warranties his guns for the life of the gun, even if you buy it used...and they are quick to fix something under warranty and return the gun to you - paying freight both ways - and while I don't expect them to break in 40,000 rds ...I did have one break an extactor and it was covered 100% under warranty / and it was shipped to their plant in Arkansas and returned to me in less than 10 days.

To me - value is ...how smooth does the gun feel after 25,000 - 50,000 - 100,000 rds ...translating to how well it was made and tuned, quality of the internal parts..does the finish hold up..all of those little things that matter - and create value too...

177705

The bottom 2 guns in this photo of some of my 1911's ...both wilsons ...bottom one is a 5" CQB model in .45 acp, the other is an all stainless 5" Protector model in 9mm ....both were 100% reliable right out of the box new. The CQB is my primary carry gun ....and it shows virtually no holster wear ...with the black Armor Tuff finish on it ...the stainless gun has over 40,000 rds thru it and is my primary range practice gun made in 9mm.

Yes, they're expensive these days...around $3K each now ....but they're worth every dime to me...!

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