FFL dealer issue


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Wolfsbane
January 6, 2013, 04:52 PM
I bought a rifle on gunbroker. I had it sent to a local FFL. It's been languishing there for two months.

I've had to have the seller to have his FFL send a copy of his license to this dealer three times already. The dealer has one person who handles transfers and getting a hold of him is been a hassle.

What are my options?

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Hunterdad
January 6, 2013, 04:54 PM
Call the cops and report it stolen. That's crazy they'd have it that long.

wow6599
January 6, 2013, 04:57 PM
Can you have the seller's FFL send you a copy of his license and take it to the home (I'm guessing) of the transferring FFL.

Put him on the spot.

NavyLCDR
January 6, 2013, 05:19 PM
I too would report the rifle stolen, or file a small claims court claim. The dealer is blowing smoke because he only had to the end of the next business day to enter the receipt of the rifle in his bound book (27 CFR 478.125). By law, all of the receipt procedures were required to be completed three months ago and all that is left is to transfer the gun to you.

12131
January 7, 2013, 12:09 AM
Report it as theft. I can't believe some folks put up with this crap. Two months? TWO MONTHS???:fire:

MarshallDodge
January 7, 2013, 12:18 AM
I would think that the ATF would be the correct answer. If he is doing business this way then he needs to have his license revoked.

ColtPythonElite
January 7, 2013, 12:22 AM
This is a civil matter, not criminal. Don't waste your time and then LE's by calling them.

Ryanxia
January 7, 2013, 12:27 AM
Hit him hard. Some people (even FFL's) are gouging. Know your Rights and act accordingly (unless there's a legitimate reason).

TennJed
January 7, 2013, 12:28 AM
I don't want this to come across wrong, but I have a feeling there may be more to the story. What excuse is your local FFL giving you? Is he saying he is not recieving the other's FFL? What good is it doing your local FFL by waiting this long. It is just taking up space holding the gun and his time dealing with your calls. Unless he hopes you will eventually give up and he keeps the gun I don't really see why he would be doing this

Shadow 7D
January 7, 2013, 12:42 AM
he had 24 hours to enter the rifle into his bound book (well 1 business day)
and um, you call the ATF, they have some fun things to say about non compliant dealers

and you tell him, he either get you your gun by sundown, OR you will be there the next AM either with an ATF industry investigator, or on the phone with one.

Vec
January 7, 2013, 01:08 AM
Dunno. I had a rifle shipped to my local FFL and it showed up Friday around 1PM. I showed up around 4:30 to pick it up. They apologized for being so busy -- another person on staff was saying their voicemail was full and they couldn't do anything about it.

So, like I said, I walked in at 4:30. They said they got a shipment of around 30-40 packages that day and they would see what they could do. (small shop)

15 minutes later, including some BSing, I was out the door.

Something is definitely messed up.

Twiki357
January 7, 2013, 01:30 AM
Maybe I'm missing something here, but why would your local FFL need a copy of the shipping FFL's license? If he received the firearm, all he should have to do is log it into his book, have you fill out the 4473, run the background check, and hand you your firearm.

The only reason I can think of is if HIS policy is not to process a transfer from a non-FFL and he wants to verify that the sender is an FFL. It sounds like there may be more to this or your FFL is just an AH.

sfed
January 7, 2013, 01:38 AM
Sound like incompetence on both ends the sender and receiver are too DENSE to fill out the forms or know procedure. If the receiving dealer knew what he was doing he may just have a successful business one day!!

Lost Sheep
January 7, 2013, 02:02 AM
I bought a handgun through the mail through GunBroker, too. Have you contacted them and asked if they can be any help? I doubt it, but it might be worth asking if your FFL had any history of complaint.

My experience was that I arranged with the receiving FFL to send his license to me and to the seller (there never was a question about the seller's license).

There was a glitch because of a widespread power outage that took my receiving FFL off line and out of phone communication for 2-3 days, but that was quickly fixed when he got back in communication.

So, the only advice I can give you is similar to wow6599's. Get copies of both FFL licenses and confront your guy who has your rifle. Before you go, program BATFE on your speed dial.

If it gets that far, expect to never do business with that FFL holder ever again (even if you were willing).

Your local Better Business Bureau might be able to help, too, especially if the FFL is a member. Your your local gun community might be in a position to apply "incentive". But be careful with that threat.

If you noise it about what this guy is doing, you open yourself up to libel suit, but truth is a defense. Make sure you have proof that everything you say is true. True or not, proof is your responsibility in a case like that. I had a problem like that and the seller (furniture) came to my First Sergeant and asked him to tell me I was risking a libel suit for what I said about his bed. I had talked to my 1st Sgt about it beforehand. He told the seller, "I have seen the bed and he's right." Settlement followed swiftly.

Lesson: Have ALL your ducks in a row before taking any steps. ALL of them.

Theft may be too heavy a charge (depending on the laws in the jurisdiction), but misappropriation seems the minimum I would call it.

I always assume good will, so when making your next confrontation, give your FFL the benefit of any available (or unavailable) doubt and invite him (by language, gesture and attitude) to explain why he does not release your rifle to you. [He MAY actually have a legitimate reason-be prepared for that.] You can always escalate later. Eventually hitting that speed dial. (It would help if you had the name of a BATFE agent with whom you have had prior contact. This, just in case my story about my 1st Sgt missed the mark.)

Good luck

Lost Sheep

p.s. To triple up on the advice: If you are in control of the timing (which, in this case, you are) NEVER enter a firefight without your backup (Plan B AND plan C if you can get one) already in place.

Bubbles
January 7, 2013, 08:44 AM
There is no legal requirement for the sending FFL to include a copy of his license. Most do it as a courtesy.

Don't know why the FFL would only have one guy to handle transfers; once a gun is in the bound book, whether a sale or a transfer, the process to log it out is the same.

ATF and local LE won't get involved as this is a civil matter.

Matthew Courtney
January 7, 2013, 09:29 AM
There is definately a civil matter involved. At the same time, civil matters and criminal matters are not mutually exclusive, especially in matters that involve fraud. Whether this is a criminal matter depends on jurisdiction and other factors.

If the rifle came from a different state, some federal criminal laws have been broken. If the recieving FFL sent his signed FFL electronicly, we would have wire fraud. If he mailed it, its mail fraud. If any employees were involved in recieving the firearm or sending the signed FFL, conspiracy and/or accessory charges would be applicable as well.

In Louisiana, we would have theft by fraud and possession of stolen things with conspiracy and accessory charges possible as well. Usually this sort of thing is not an isolated event and an investigation reveals many more layers of the onion.

Lazy or overworked police officers try and avoid adding to their workload by pointing out that there are civil remedies, and usually the civil remedies are a better option. In you press for criminal charges, the rifle might be tied up as evidence for over a year. Is that what you want?

RCArms.com
January 7, 2013, 02:15 PM
There is more to this than what the OP posted.

What is the reason that the receiving FFL is giving for the delay in being able to complete the transaction?

Holding the rifle makes no sense at all based on the available information

Don

mgkdrgn
January 7, 2013, 08:05 PM
Maybe I'm missing something here, but why would your local FFL need a copy of the shipping FFL's license? If he received the firearm, all he should have to do is log it into his book, have you fill out the 4473, run the background check, and hand you your firearm.

The only reason I can think of is if HIS policy is not to process a transfer from a non-FFL and he wants to verify that the sender is an FFL. It sounds like there may be more to this or your FFL is just an AH.
Because he has to put it in his books as coming =from= somewhere .. in this case the sending FFL. Standard industry practice is to include a copy of your FFL in every firearm shipment.

And yes, I am an FFL.

Shadow 7D
January 8, 2013, 12:16 PM
and he LEGALLY MUST RECORD THE GUN IN WITH IN 24 HOURS

So, the whole dragging feet for weeks and weeks and weeks
would make me go talk to an ATF industry side investigator, see they are REALLY NICE to take along, the FFL must open his books to them, they can demand to look in the book and for him to produce any verify EVERY gun in his shop.

Just don't expect to ever use the guy again. And if nothing is wrong, well, the Industry guy probably 'politely' tell you that you wasted his time. But this is part of why they are there.

waterhouse
January 8, 2013, 02:03 PM
Out of curiosity, has anyone ever actually called the ATF and asked them to meet you at a gun store? Does this work?

joeschmoe
January 8, 2013, 04:42 PM
Because he has to put it in his books as coming =from= somewhere .. in this case the sending FFL. Standard industry practice is to include a copy of your FFL in every firearm shipment.

And yes, I am an FFL.
Yes, but you still have to log it in your book quickly. It is a violation to recieve or have guns in your shop that are NOT listed in your book. So one way or the other, the FFL must log it in. It can't just sit in the store for months without being in the log. If he got inspected how would he explain why that gun is not in the bound book?

mgkdrgn
January 8, 2013, 08:07 PM
Yes, but you still have to log it in your book quickly. It is a violation to recieve or have guns in your shop that are NOT listed in your book. So one way or the other, the FFL must log it in. It can't just sit in the store for months without being in the log. If he got inspected how would he explain why that gun is not in the bound book?
I would agree ... but he is going to have just as much trouble if it is in his book w/o a source.

Once he "gives up" the gun, he has lost the last tiny bit of leverage he has to get that "source" info.

mgkdrgn
January 8, 2013, 08:11 PM
and he LEGALLY MUST RECORD THE GUN IN WITH IN 24 HOURS

So, the whole dragging feet for weeks and weeks and weeks
would make me go talk to an ATF industry side investigator, see they are REALLY NICE to take along, the FFL must open his books to them, they can demand to look in the book and for him to produce any verify EVERY gun in his shop.

Just don't expect to ever use the guy again. And if nothing is wrong, well, the Industry guy probably 'politely' tell you that you wasted his time. But this is part of why they are there.
Actually what the "industry guy" is going to politely tell you is that we don't have the whole story here. What does the receiving FFL have to gain by hanging on to a gun for weeks or months? He doesn't get paid squat until the transfer happens ... until then he's out his time and the gun takes up space in his safe.

This is likely, for what ever reason, to be one of those "transfers from hell" that makes you wonder why you bother with them at all.

Or, this particular FFL is some sort of troglodyte flat earther, who insists on "wet ink" signed FFL's and thinks FAX and email are the devils work. Few of them out there still.

jgh4445
January 8, 2013, 08:43 PM
One does not need an FFL to send TO an FFL. The recieving FFL does not NEED a copy of a senders FFL to recieve it. Only a name and address so he can log the source in. Something isn't being said here.

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