[jsalcedo]

Last gun show a month ago, I thought I had found a good deal on a mini 14 ranch rifle. $389 preban a couple 40 rounders.

The seller had been there for every gunshow for the last 3 years and I had almost bought from him a couple times.

This mini 14 had good blue, good trigger ultra shiny bore nice wood.

I asked the seller how it shot. He pulled out a target from under his table with what he said was a 100 yard group he had shot the previous day.

It looked pretty good and had .22 sized holes in it.

I paid the cash and bought some PMC ammo.

The next weekend I went to try it out.

The first round fired and the case stuck in the chamber. I mean stuck

I pulled the bolt off the stuck round and tried to get it out with a cleaning rod. No dice. Took it into the range office and the nice guy in there used a brass rod and a hammer and punded on it for 3 min until the shell came out.

The case was deeply scored and bulged out in spiral pattern.

Funny thing was I got a bullseye with that one shot.

I took the rifle home and shined a powerful halogen light into the chamber and saw that someone had taken a dremel tool and ground it out.

The gunshow vendor lied about test firing the mini 14 and knowingly dumped a ruined junker on me.

Figuring that I was SOL and would have a tough time getting my money back from the crook I called accuracy systems (they do custom mini 14 work and asked if they had any used barrels. They had me ship the rifle to them last week and they installed, indexed and test fired a replacement barrel for $125

I should be getting the mini 14 back in a couple days.

Should I take the invoice to the gunshow dealer and try to get him to pay for it? Or should I camp at his table and ruin his buisness for 8 hours on Sunday?

[pax]

Should I take the invoice to the gunshow dealer and try to get him to pay for it? Or should I camp at his table and ruin his buisness for 8 hours on Sunday?
First "A," then "B" if necessary.

Don't start rude, though. Start nice.

My .02

pax

[Hkmp5sd]

Should I take the invoice to the gunshow dealer and try to get him to pay for it? Or should I camp at his table and ruin his buisness for 8 hours on Sunday?
Absolutely. If he doesn't do the first option, then do the 2nd option until he coughs up the money. You might also want to complain to the folks that run the gun show. They don't like to see people get ripped off either.

[Slabside]

I feel your pain. Go to the show and confront him. Give him the opportunity to make it right. He probably won't if he's just a vendor and not a licensed FFL business but you never know unless you ask. If he won't and tells you to get lost, chances are he's done it to others as well. You can always inform the show organizer, SAXET, and get their view. However, they probably won't be of much help. The adage of Caveat Emptor really does apply, unfortunately, at gunshows as well as anywhere else. Best of luck.

BTW, I read your other thread on that gunshow and really enjoyed it.

[Hedger]

Lesson learned.... look into the barrel and chamber BEFORE plunking down the money.... Take it back and trade for the chromed AK with da switch on it. :what:

As a legal matter, however, caveat emptor probably doesn't apply. Many states have adopted Article 2 (Sales) of the Uniform Commercial Code that provide for warranties in sales of goods, even used goods, by merchants. Warranties or remedies may be limited or excluded, however, so check your sales slips for any such language "AS IS" and the like. Some states even limit the effectiveness of such disclaimers for consumer goods... so check out your state's laws.

If you can't get satisfaction directly from the seller, see what you need to do to file a small claims complaint on your own. Small claims usually don't involve attorneys and judges tend to do what is "fair"... this may be to your advantage particularly if the alleged "target" was a bunch of BS...

[Ed Ely]

I think that Ruger would have done the job for you for about the
same price that you paid.

For sure, confront the the gunshow dealer and ask him to
divvy up or buy back from you.

Ed

[geekWithA.45]

It would especially help if you brought the dremelled barrel with you, as evidence.

Since he showed you a target and made a verbal claim, I consider his responsibility in the transaction to be greater rather than lesser.

[Josey]

Hold up. You need documentation. You need a written/faxed statement from the folks that replaced the barrel. You need the barrel. You need a statement from the range officer. You need to write a statement as to the transaction and problems. You take all of the documentation, barrel, sales receipt and your own witness to the show promoters. You may also desire security. Give the show promoters your side first. The show promoters should then get the sellers side of the story. No accusations or flames from you, be calm, ice. Ask for the seller to either pay the repair bill, split 50-50 with you, give you a item of equal value or make a counter offer. Whatever happens, be calm, ice. Ask that this complaint against the seller be documented by the show promoters. In the end, accept whatever happens as a lesson learned. A small claims court claim for $125.00 is not worth your time. I would think it over and proceed to give the show promoters a chance to do the right thing.

[Pendragon]

Yes, ice all the way.

People who pull out the freak show off the cuff rarely get what they want.

Definately get your evidence and then go to the promoters with it - they should help you talk to the dealer.

If the dealer does not give you satisfaction - I would want the $125 in some way myself - then ask him how long you need to stand there to cost him $389 which is what he really tried to burn you for.

I have found that the best way to get satisfaction is to convince people that making it right is going to be easier and cheaper than stone walling.

[HSMITH]

Listen to Josey, he is quite on target here.

Without documentation and the old barrel you are telling a story, nothing more.

When all is said and done he provided you the opportunity to inspect the gun before buying it, he owes you nothing. In reality he may help out with the repair 'in good faith' but don't hold your breath.

Think of this, if you were the dealer and someone had a problem with a gun you sold whether or not you knew something was wrong so they took it somewhere else and had it fixed without even giving you the opportunity to look at it what would you do? I would tell you to pack sand until you ran out or felt full. Giving the dealer the chance to fix it or refund your money FIRST is where this thread should have started IMO. If you think dealers make detailed inpections of guns they take in and then resell you are very much mistaken. Often they do less looking into the internal and mechanical condition of a gun than the average buyer off the street that knows nothing. If it looks nice it will sell, right?

[Hedger]

The senior members are correct... gather all your evidence an try talking to the seller and promoters first. If that doesn't work, your choice is to eat it or small claims... you can decide whether its worth it or not.

[BluesBear]

Please keep us informed and let us know how this plays out.

[Tamara]

When buying used guns, always remember what the ancient Romans said: Caveat emptor, baby.

Was this guy a business or a private individual? If the former, you really may not have any recourse depending on whether or not they have any kind of warranty or guarantee on their used guns. If it's a private individual, you're pretty much sierra oscar lima.

As far as "picketing his table" goes, is that really how you want to spend a Sunday afternoon? Just let us know who it was and feel confident that you've told 10,000 people who will never buy a gun from the man.

[WonderNine]

Have to agree with Tamara on this. Not worth your time.

Was a valuable lesson though no doubt...

I have had some guns I've bought off of the INTERNET that were a little less than advertised, or they left out some semi-important details, but if you had the gun there in your hands before buying....well....what can I say...

[jsalcedo]

The guy is a private seller.

Since It is going to be over a month until I see the seller again I wanted to go ahead and fix the rifle then bring the invoice and the ruined barrel
to the guy and see what he says.

Unfortunately the damage done to the barrel required more light than was available or a test firing. Used a bore light both ways and still couldn't see it.

I'm figuring caveat emptor from the beginning. I took the risk on a used gun
and the word of the dealer when he assured me with his fake target and the comment that he put 100 rounds through it the day before.

It is more about principal than the money. I've purchased at least 50 used guns and have never been lied to or cheated as bad as this instance.

If he refuses to reimburse me for the repair after showing him the blown out shell casing, barrel and documentation. I'll notify the show promoters
and leave it at that.

[kernal_panic]

let me get this straight:

you willingly bought a Mini-14? not to flame you but you did screw your self. you could have gotten a sar-3 and some weigers for what you paid out on the mini.

[WonderNine]

you could have gotten a sar-3 and some weigers for what you paid out on the mini.

Hehe, I made the same mistake, I should be slapped in the head. Got rid of the junky musket they refer to as the Mini-14 though...

And more like "you could have gotten a SAR-3 and A PILE of Weigers and a case of ammo for what you paid for it."

Or, "You could have gotten a VEPR II and some Weigers for what you paid for it."

[JohnBT]

I would have called the dealer first to give him a chance to make good on the deal - fix it, buy it back, give me a partial refund or whatever we could work out that was agreeable.

I figure once I modify a gun it's mine and would guess that my chances of ever being reimbursed for work I've ordered and paid for is somewhere around zero.

But it never hurts to ask.

John

[Mike Irwin]

You need to have the original barrel returned to you, and you'll need an indication from the people who did the work that that was the original barrel that they took off the gun.

[ysr_racer]

Snip:

I would have called the dealer first to give him a chance to make good on the deal - fix it, buy it back, give me a partial refund or whatever we could work out that was agreeable.

Snip:

Yep, what he said. If you buy something from me and work on it, it's yours.

[standingbear]

Used is used, and "as is" is "as is." BUT, the seller misrepresented the item by specifically claiming it worked well. You have a case here for fraud. true..though good luck fighting it.Ive gotn stiffed before too and even from a ffl holder on occasion.I was given the runaround and sent from person to person till I reached full circle-playing the blame game.try returning it before its fixed,explaining what happened and see what he says(a receipt would maybe have the phone number or someway to reach him).if that doesnt work- youll have to fix it and either keep it or sell it.you wouldnt believe what some people will do to make a buck off you.you can try making a big stink with the show promoters.the guy will get poed from the heat and probably just blow you off anyways..if hes honorable..he'll make it right.

[BluesBear]

Since It is going to be over a month until I see the seller again All y'all who are saying he should have called the seller are assuming that Jsalcedo even has the sellers phone number.

I'd be willing to bet that the seller has that EXACT same target with him at the next show. If it truely was fired from the Mini-14 he sold J then he would have no reason to keep it. And I would not be a bit surprised to learn that this seller has targets in every caliber gun he has for sale.

Maybe an even better plan of action would be to seek out the seller and see if he would be willing to trade for or buy back the same gun WITHOUT telling him it was defective. If he knows it's messed up he won't want to touch it with a ten-foot pole. An honest trader would be willing to reaquire a quality item.

[standingbear]

bluesbear..I agree but if he tried selling it back without mentioning the damaged barrel,the guy that originally sold the gun to him could switch it around and say it wasnt his fault and give him maybe half of what he paid for it to begin with.thats what makes it a difficult situation with traders like this..they either do things like this intentionally(buy cheap and sell dear) and get away with it hoping nobody will notice and just fix the durn thing- blame someone else.theyve made their buck and moved the junk gun or perhaps he didnt know and just made up the story about the accuracy just to make a buck.either way..he lied.he should make it right if given a chance but chances are he'll offer j half his paying price(cause it has a bad barrel) and buy it back then move the gun to someone else without a peep.sad thing is..eventually,someone will pay to fix it and end up with a bunch more in the gun than whats its even worth.if that someone ever tries to sell it,he looses the extra money he paid to do the right thing by getting it fixed or takes a hit by not fixing it ,being honest & telling the new buyer of the barrel.either way..j loses.been there.

[BluesBear]

standingbear, my point is that if the seller knew the gun was defective he won't touch it. He will make up some kind of excure for not wanting to trade or buy it back at a reduced price. Especialyy if J gives him a sob story about how he needs the money and hasn't even had a chance to fire the gun and is willing to sell at a loss. My bet is that the dealer will give an even bigger sob story as to why e can't afford to buy it back becaue he KNOWS he was lucky to get rid of it in the first place.

If the seller says, "Sure I'll gladly buy it back" then J can say "Well, you know, I had to have that bad barrel replaced. You wouldn't have any idea how it gor so screwd up would you? I mean what could have possibly happened to it in that 24 hour period between the time you shot that great group with it and you sold it to me?"

Another ploy would be to see if he had another.5.56mm rifle for sale. If so have someone else ask about it and see if the same great group target makes another appearance.


An honest dealer will have nothing to hide and won't need to resort to trickery to make a sale. Since it is impossible for the gun in question to have fired, the day before, the group shown to J, we already have reason to suspect the integrity of the dealer.

[Arc Angel]

:rolleyes: Just my, 'two cents'; but I don't think that, $514.00 is too much to spend for a decent shooting Mini-14 that, now, has a new barrel and is in overall very good condition. Yeah, this dealer took advantage of you; but - maybe, just maybe - this is reflected in the original selling price. Other than this I would, also, suggest taking Josey's advice and going after him over the simple fact that he clearly deceived you! Get your documentation and good luck! :mad:

[TechBrute]

I'm NOT defending the guy, but you should have given the guy an opportunity to make it right. Then ruin his life if he doesn't. :D

People pay money for Mini-14s? :D :evil:

[Jeff OTMG]

Give the guy the chance to make right on it. You don't mention if you 4473'd that rifle or not, but I know that there are a lot of private sellers at San Antonio. If he is one, do not say anything to him, but go across the street to the office building. That is where the San Antonio office of the BATF is. If he has been set up at a gun show every month for 3 years selling guns for a profit, that is dealing, and doing it without an FFL is a felony. File a complaint and let BATF do a sting on him, it will be all over. If they refuse tell them that you will go to the paper.

[BluesBear]

Now do we really want to get F-troop involved in this? That's all you need.
Get them snooping around even more than they already do and it'll all go to "spit".:rolleyes:

[Redlg155]

Chances are he's exactly like one ol boy that attends shows here. He's alway at the show buying and selling under the premise of "Private Collection". I've seen the guy take more than one gun in and pass on information given from the seller as his own expericences. And yep...I've even seen targets brought in before.

Take the barrel back to him and let him know you got burned in the deal. If he refused to make it right I'd protest first to the gun show promoter. Then take him to small claims court. I'd be he tries to make it right when the promoter has a word with him.

Good Shooting
Red

[2nd Amendment]

Being a private seller I am assuming he had and kept diddly squat for records. As such it's also possible he sold you a gun other than the one he thought he was selling you. I know of at least one fellow who meant to sell his Chinese Wonder M1A1 at a gunshow. He grabbed it in the AM, went to the show and dropped it on a buddys table then went to do whatever. When he came back he collected his cash, as it had sold immediately at around $600.

When he got home he realized the Norinco was still in the corner and his Springfield Armory was gone...

[Daniel T]

I'd be more concerned about having been sold a gun that could have been defective enough to permanently damage you than just getting a few bucks back.

[CB900F]

Jsalcedo;

T'were me, I'd go to the promoter's first. Tell them the story, and yes it'd be a real good thing to have all the back-up info you can amass. If they are sympathetic, but can't do a whole lot for you; well, ask how much a table is & can you get it right across the aisle from you-know-who?

If that works out, the seller might be inclined to be reasonable, if you start off nice. After all, you just might very well ruin his weekend.

900F

[Jeff OTMG]

It depends on where the table was at the show whether or not Todd, the promoter, will be sympathetic. If it is in the first few tables as you turn to the right after you go through the door, that is his father, brother, and other family and friends. ATF has done stings there before, this wouldn't be the first.

[Sunray]

"Should I take the invoice to the gunshow dealer and try to get him to pay for it?" Nope. You're screwed. You should have taken it back without having it fixed. Then taken him to court if he did nothing. Wouldn't hurt to talk to the show operators, but don't expect them to do much.

[Matthew Courtney]

For a "non-dealer" to misrepresent a firearm in the manner described, it takes more then a "target search error". Either they guy is a dealer, or he lied about the condition of pesonal property.

Guys who buy guns to look at and shoot are firearms enthusiasts. Guys who buy and sell guns in the same day three weekends per month to enhance their collections are dealers.

Should the Feds regulate dealers? No. But they do. Give him a chance to make it right, then put the ATF on his tail.

[Slabside]

jsalcedo:

So, how did it turn out???

[jsalcedo]

So, how did it turn out???

I should get the repaired rifle and the old barrel back tomorrow.

Then I'll have to wait for the next gunshow 3 weeks from now on April 2.

Here is a pic of the fired shell. The brass is badly bulged and the wall of the
case was breached.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-1/620707/.223defectivebarrel.JPG

[BamBam-31]

Whoa. The spent shell from Hell.

Gotta agree with most posters. Dealer, then Promoter. Then waste his Sunday if it'll make you feel better. Small claims prolly isn't worth your time. Even if you do get a judgment, what if he still refuses to pay? There are steps you can take to get your money judgment, but will it be worth the time and effort?

Good luck, and thanks for sharing.

[jsalcedo]

Just got the repaired rifle back from accuracy systems.

Looks like the did a great job.

Nice folks to deal with too

I asked them to stick a used barrel on my gun and all they had was Stainless steel. Was ok with me and the price was right.

Even gave me a empty shell from the test fire

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-1/620707/14ss.JPG

[orca]

While there has been some VERY good advice given on this subject, I think I would have to decide if I wanted: 1.) money, or 2.) satisfaction. They are usually mutually exclusive. Me, I'll take "satisfaction" every time. (There's been some good advice on the satisfaction side of the house too!!)

Small backpack, the brass, photos of the rifle, bottle of water, thermos of coffee and a stool to put right in front of his table. Ahhh.....

[gino]

I've got news for you guys, the buyer is screwed. I was cheated at a gun show last year in WPB, Fl (the dealer bait and switched me) and complaining to the promoter did NOTHING. Gee, I wonder who the promoter is going to side with, me, or the guy who has been giving him steady business for the last three years...

And I was told that I was NOT going to stand at the dealer's taable and cause trouble. They even called over the cop working the show.

[sumpnz]

I bought a Winchester 190 at a gun show. When I took it out to fire it the next day it would only go bang aon about every 5th trigger pull. The gun show was still going on, so I found the guy I bought it from (private individual) explained the problem, and he exchanged it for another 190 he had (it was actually in better shape than the one I bought initially - it fired properly, and looked better). He also offered to refund my money if I preferred. He was very fair and reasonable.I'd do business with him again if he had something I was interested in.

[jsalcedo]

I took the mini 14 out today with the new barrel and tried it out at 50 yards.

With PMC and wolf ammo it functioned flawlessly it also chunked brass
35 yards to my right.

At 50 yards open sights I put a had a couple 40 shot groups that could be covered with a playing card.

I think with a good scope I could cut those in half.

Got all my ducks in a row and will still confront the seller and see what he plans to do if anything.

[TCD]

Well either way, sounds like you have a nice rifle now.



Not a total loss eh?

[brookstexas]

Sad some of the comments I see of a firearms and freedom forum.

[macavada]

You know, the funny thing about this experience? If you hadn't bought an unsound Mini14, you would have probably had just another run of the mill, inaccurate Mini14 that would have been right in line with their collective reputation. With this unfortunate experience, you'll actually have a Mini 14 that I think you're going to end up enjoying - kind of a blessing in disguise. Hopefully the guy will cooperate. Maybe you can at least get him to pay for half of your expense? (I'll probably get flamed for such a suggestion.)

[jsalcedo]

With this unfortunate experience, you'll actually have a Mini 14 that I think you're going to end up enjoying - kind of a blessing in disguise.

Yeah you are right, I'm feeling screwed and more proud of being resourceful and getting a good deal on a replacement barrel.

It turning out to be a learning experience, shipped my first gun, dealt with a great company (accuracy systems) and learned a valuable lesson about buying at gun shows.

[PigPen]

I know that this is not what you want to hear but I have a some what unique attitude with gunshow dealers.

I by 2 or 3 firearms per year at gunshows. They are usually everything that I expect but occasionally I get hosed. Now take the deal that you have mentioned; You will likely have what you thought you had when you paid for the rifle.......only for $125.00 more than you figured. Divided the 10 or 15 firearms that you purchased over the preceding (or following) 5 yrs., into that 125.00 and it adds between $12.50 and $8.33 to each gun that you purchased...........If you can keep that up you have done pretty well.

Unfortunately (in my view), too many people think it is a big game to palm off firearms that you are displeased with onto some unsuspecting individual.....frequently at gun shows.

Never buy from this guy again! Average your loses! Be glad that gun shows exist so that you can find unusual firearms that are not available at your trustworthy local dealer! Look carefully and try to learn not to be taken next time! And never, never, never become like these people who cheated you. It is not a good joke!

You will learn from your experience..............and look down the barrel next time.......we've all been there.

PigPen