Suppressor/SBR nightmare


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Reloaderharry
January 8, 2013, 07:24 PM
Sorry about writing a book.

I am looking for some help to verify what my FFL is telling me on some problems I am having with them on buying a suppressor/SBR from them. For decency sake I am not going to name the shop/location.

In September (2012) I went in the shop and asked them if they had ever gotten the correct licenses/permission/whatever from the government to sell suppressors and SBRs (had talked to them before about it and they said no). Long story shorter, they told me they had it all taken care of and they could do it. About 20 minutes later I walked out 2100~ dollars poorer with a 10.5 .300 AAC and a 7.62-snd6 on order.

The SBR is a completely different nightmare but they finally managed about 2.5 months after the order to get all the paperwork etc straightened out and after the trip to local law enforcement it shipped out (check was cashed couple weeks ago by the feds).

I am extremely concerned about the suppressor however. It has now been just at 4 months and he still does not have it in hand to even get the paperwork started. He told me about a week after I paid that he found a place that had them in stock and that he would be ordering it (a supplier/other shop). A few weeks later he told me that he was waiting on the ATF paperwork so he could legally have it in his store and that as soon as that was cleared he would have it in hand. Just before Christmas I went in and he told me that the ATF approved him and he was waiting on shipping to receive it.

I went in today and the owner was not there, however another regular was. He told me (pretty rudely) that I was simply being impatient and that 6 months was a standard time for the shop to receive the suppressor after ordering it. He told me that every time they order a suppressor the shop has to go thru the same procedure as an individual (fingerprinting etc) and it takes the ATF 4-6 months to approve a shop EACH TIME they order a suppressor??

This seems like a complete runaround to me? I was prepared for the 6-8 month wait for the tax stamp thru the ATF, but surely it shouldn't take a shop anywhere near this long to simply get it in?

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taliv
January 8, 2013, 07:34 PM
not sure what nightmare you're talking about. that sounds pretty common.

on the SBR:
you can take possession of everything except the lower receiver. if the first stamp to your dealer comes in and they ship the rifle to him, he has to keep the receiver until your stamp comes in. Him keeping the bolt carrier group and giving you the complete rifle is definitely illegal. if that's what happened, i'd advise you not to post it on the internet, and to fix the situation asap. if i've misread your comments, my bad.

for both the suppressor and SBR:
yes the ATF has to approve a shop EACH TIME the mfg transfers an item to the shop

dealer to dealer, that time for the ATF to do that is USUALLY 30 days, (plus shipping time) BUT CAN VARY depending on what state you're in.

dealer to individual is running about 6-7 months right now.

and given how backed up people are because of craziness, election, holidays, etc, it's entirely likely that both the ATF and the manufacturer/dealer are running a few weeks behind.

stamps are something you have to be patient about normally.

all that said, it does sound like something might be a little fishy there, but i wouldn't hold rudeness of a 'regular' against the shop when the owner isn't there.

taliv
January 8, 2013, 07:36 PM
in the future, i'd recommend you file your own paperwork to "manufacture" the SBR lower. that way, you skip the dealer-to-dealer time and whatever your dealer is charging you to do the transfer.

you can buy the upper direct from the mfg and it doesn't have to go through a dealer.

Reloaderharry
January 8, 2013, 07:40 PM
The nightmare part has alot to do with the complete fiasco (that I didn't entirely talk about) I went thru with the sbr paperwork. Lets just say it was 4 separate trips to the shop before I actually had everything I needed just to had to the local law enforcement.

The issue with the suppressor is that its been 4 months and, after locating (or telling me this) a in stock suppressor he still does not have one in hand to start the paperwork. Remember, this wasn't after Sandy hook, it was sept/dec timeframe of last year.

greghvac
January 8, 2013, 08:00 PM
he should have the suppressor in shop, because of paper work for ATF (serial #)
if i'm reading it right

Sam1911
January 8, 2013, 08:02 PM
You do not want to be in possession of an unregistered NFA firearm. You REALLY don't. The liability is definitely on you (though it wouldn't be a GOOD thing for him either).

The seriousness of that one thing going wrong would make me want to speak to professional legal counsel, but making sure you are NOT in possession of an unregistered firearm would really be the crux of the matter.

To say the ATF would be interested to find out this shop is handing out Title II items before they get the forms back would be an understatement.

Reloaderharry
January 8, 2013, 08:16 PM
How do you make your own SBR without being in possession of the lower and thus s/n of the lower?

Its illegal for sure even if its non functional and the two are seperate? This is not good.....

Edit: how is this different than buying a 10.5 upper and owning a lower, aka as if your going to make a pistol or something?

Sam1911
January 8, 2013, 08:22 PM
If you're "Making and Registering" an SBR on a Form 1, with ARs most guys start with a receiver they already have. They file the Form 1 and then wait. While waiting they send it out to get the serial number they've chosen engraved on the lower. When the paperwork comes back, THEN they get a shorty upper to slap on the lower. OR, they may start with an AR "pistol" (no buttstock) and go through the same process, only adding a buttstock when the paperwork comes back.

In both those cases, the receiver is NOT an SBR until you register and assemble it as such.

Have to be VERY careful not to have the parts in your possession to complete the build (more or less) until that paperwork comes back.

...

But, the process if VERY importantly different if you're transferring an already registered Title II weapon. You CANNOT possess it until you've received the form. Taking the bolt out of it does exactly ZERO to make it not an NFA item!

(Now, technically, if the dealer had kept the BARREL, I do believe that would be ok, but its an odd area of the law. SBRs can be "unmade" by removing the short barrel and that's legal so long as the person in possession does not have the barrel in his possession too.)

Telekinesis
January 8, 2013, 08:34 PM
I wouldn't be too worried about the suppressor, I had one can that took more than 3 months from the day the forms were filed to get the suppressor transferred to the dealer. May want to have the FFL call the ATF and check on the form 3 though.

The FFL giving you the lower is definitely illegal. It is the serialized part and is technically the SBR all by itself (similar to how the receiver of a machine gun is the actual registered part). You should take the lower back to the shop and read them the riot act because BOTH of you are liable. (I would also recommend you take that part out of your OP, and if so I wouldn't mind a Mod deleting this part of my post). And you might want to get a lawyer in your corner...

How do you make your own SBR without being in possession of the lower and thus s/n of the lower?

Its illegal for sure even if its non functional and the two are seperate? This is not good.....

Edit: how is this different than buying a 10.5 upper and owning a lower, aka as if your going to make a pistol or something?

When making a SBR, you can have a lower and even a short upper, as long as the gun isn't in the configuration of a short barreled rifle. The problem here is that your lower was already registered as a SBR by the manufacturer and thus has to be treated just like a suppressor or machine gun - the form 4 MUST come in before the weapon is transferred.

(Now, technically, if the dealer had kept the BARREL, I do believe that would be ok, but its an odd area of the law. SBRs can be "unmade" by removing the short barrel and that's legal so long as the person in possession does not have the barrel in his possession too.)

Sam, I'm not sure about that one. I know that a SBR looses its "restricted" status for transport if you change the barrel to a length over 16", but I'm not sure it would work with the initial transfer of a weapon that is already registered.

Sam1911
January 8, 2013, 08:36 PM
Right. I'm not SURE, either. I know the ATF says you can swap on a long barrel and then sell the former-SBR to someone else as a regular Title I rifle. I just don't know if you can do this sort of Schrodinger's cat routine while waiting on the Form.

Reloaderharry
January 8, 2013, 08:40 PM
Edit just read your post..... Just freaking great.

Thanks for the help, I will be headed there first thing to marrow.

Is there any legal text I can take to show them? I don't think they know *** they are doing

Telekinesis
January 8, 2013, 08:42 PM
I know the ATF says you can swap on a long barrel and then sell the former-SBR to someone else as a regular Title I rifle. I just don't know if you can do this sort of Schrodinger's cat routine while waiting on the Form.

Hmm, didn't know you could sell it as a Title I just by swapping the upper. There may be something to your initial idea... But its definitely a case of "better safe than sorry".

Swing
January 8, 2013, 08:48 PM
Is there any legal text I can take to show them? I don't think they know *** they are doing

Might check this FAQ (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html) and this guidebook (http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/nfa-handbook/).

CharlieDeltaJuliet
January 8, 2013, 08:50 PM
Yes, take it back... Seriously, this is very illegal. I would let him know about his mistake too. How you handle it would be your discretion. I myself would not be happy. NFA violations are serious business, and not knowing would not lighten the penalty at all. The reason it is a problem is the stamp has not arrived. That is my understanding of the NFA laws.. Please if I am mistaken, someone correct me.

Reloaderharry
January 8, 2013, 09:02 PM
The form we filled out with the sherrif etc was the "create a firearm" one, does this matter? To my knowledge this is the only paperwork the atf has gotten on the gun. I do not think anything else was filled or at least I was not told.

What a nightmare. Pretty much freaking out at this point.

Edit: what I am saying is, could he be selling me a upper and lower seperatly and then basically just be helping me to file the paperwork as if I was the one creating the rifle?

Telekinesis
January 8, 2013, 09:08 PM
The form we filled out with the sherrif etc was the "create a firearm" one, does this matter?

YES! That changes the discussion completely from the FFL transferring you a NFA weapon without the stamp to the FFL selling you a Title I firearm and just helping you fill out the paperwork so you can manufacture the NFA weapon yourself.

Just make sure you build the gun as a PISTOL first, meaning don't put a stock on the gun. Better yet, don't have a stock (or rifle buffer tube) for the gun until your Form 1 comes back.

Reloaderharry
January 8, 2013, 09:13 PM
Well my heart rate is slowly going back down lol.

Back to the matter at hand, is waiting 4+ months for the suppressor manufacturer to ship to the gun shop typical?

Thanks again for the help.

Edit: the stock etc is already together, but I am storing the upper and lower in seperate cases etc not assembled.

jmorris
January 8, 2013, 09:42 PM
How do you make your own SBR without being in possession of the lower and thus s/n of the lower? Build a pistol, when the paperwork gets back, slap a stock on it.

RAINS
January 8, 2013, 09:53 PM
For what's it worth good luck and stick to it. NFA stuff is a huge pain. Expect huge and I mean "HUGE" "HUGE"! Delays in everything right now. I.e. your suppressor. In the future work threw a more experienced NFA dealer.

Aaron Baker
January 8, 2013, 10:08 PM
What a mess.

As other posters seem to have helped you figure out, it sounds like your dealer was selling you a Title I firearm (regular AR15 lower) and helping you fill out the ATF Form 1 for YOU to make it into a short-barreled rifle. If that's the case, you're okay to have the lower, but it shouldn't have both a buttstock and short barrel attached until you have the stamp in hand. Wait on that is usually running about 6 months.

As for the suppressor, I seem to remember hearing that the AAC 7.62 SDN-6 suppressor has been really popular and hard to get one's hands on lately. It's possible that the dealer ordered one from AAC or a distributor and simply hasn't gotten one allocated to him yet, and is possibly as frustrated by the wait as you are.

Dealer to dealer transfers of suppressors are done on an ATF Form 3, not a Form 4. The Form 3 takes much less time to get approved at the ATF--like 30 days instead of 6 months. But the dealer can't start the Form 3 paperwork if he doesn't have a suppressor to transfer, so it could be AAC's fault. (I don't KNOW this, but it's possible if they're backordered.) He has to have the actual serial number of the particular suppressor to get the transfer approved.

The "regular" at the shop doesn't know what he's talking about, but that's not a surprise if the shop itself seems a little fuzzy on the details of transfers and how long they take.

Be patient would be my advice, and it helps to know what the process SHOULD be in order to figure out when to stop being patient.

Aaron

Reloaderharry
January 8, 2013, 10:28 PM
Yeah, honestly the worst part is the shop constantly changing stories and not being upfront with me. I honestly think the reason he didn't give me the moving parts of the upper is because he just doesn't have em.

Thanks again for the replies

taliv
January 8, 2013, 10:31 PM
Right. I'm not SURE, either. I know the ATF says you can swap on a long barrel and then sell the former-SBR to someone else as a regular Title I rifle. I just don't know if you can do this sort of Schrodinger's cat routine while waiting on the Form.

sam, i'm not sure about that. in fact, i'm a little skeptical. if you have a link, i'd very much appreciate it.


as for the change in the conversation here... if the dealer is selling you a firearm and expecting YOU to manufacture it, then he can't sell you an upper that has a barrel less than 16". i really don't know how that would work.


bottom line:
you do not want to have ANY ar15 lower receivers in your possession that are not complete rifles if you also have a short-barreled upper receiver in your possession. (until you get that stamp)

and IF someone else "manufactured" a SBR (i.e. the gun was sold as an SBR to the gun store or to you) and is "transferring" it to you, then you do not want to take possession of the lower receiver until they hand you a form4 with a stamp and your name on it

Sam1911
January 9, 2013, 12:46 AM
As other posters seem to have helped you figure out, it sounds like your dealer was selling you a Title I firearm (regular AR15 lower) and helping you fill out the ATF Form 1 for YOU to make it into a short-barreled rifle. If that's the case, you're okay to have the lower, but it shouldn't have both a buttstock and short barrel attached until you have the stamp in hand..
YES! This is different! If you'd filed a "Form 4" that would be to transfer an existing registered SBR to you. You filed a "Form 1" which is to make and register. SO, you CAN have the receiver in your possession, and it does transfer just withe the 4473 form as a plain rifle (or if a bare receiver it transfers as an "Other Firearm" ... still not an NFA item). You can have it, use it, shoot it, and keep it complete and workable at your house SO LONG AS YOU DO NOT POSSESS THE SHORT BARREL (or if you go with a pistol, so long as you don't possess the butt stock) until the Form 1 comes back approved.

(There are some exceptions there, mainly if you had a stable of other ARs that could use those parts lawfully, but that's the SAFE way.)

And, still, the dealer keeping the bolt is inane. There's no point to that either way. It doesn't have any merit in the eyes of the law.

Sam1911
January 9, 2013, 12:51 AM
sam, i'm not sure about that. in fact, i'm a little skeptical. if you have a link, i'd very much appreciate it.

No problem! Here part of the ATF's NFA FAQ page on SBRs/SBSs: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html...
Q: I possess a properly registered SBR or SBS. I intend to strip the receiver and remove the barrel prior to selling the receiver. Is the bare receiver still subject to regulation under the NFA as a SBR or SBS?
A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA. Although the previously registered firearm would remain registered unless the possessor notified the NFA Branch of the change, there is no provision in statute or regulation requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel because its physical characteristics would make it only a GCA “firearm” pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(B). If the subsequent owner buys the receiver as a GCA firearm and installs a barrel less than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS), the firearm would be subject to a $200 making tax and registration under the NFA by the manufacturer or maker of the SBR or SBS. Because registration depends upon the stated intent of the applicant, there is no provision to allow registration of a NFA firearm by anyone other than the maker or manufacturer.

Q: If I remove the short barrel from the registered SBR or SBS, is the receiver still subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations?
If the possessor retains control over the barrel or other parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm would still be subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations. ATF recommends contacting State law enforcement officials to ensure compliance with state and local law.

Q: Does the installation of a barrel over 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA? If so, is this considered a permanent change?
Installation of a barrel greater than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) will remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA provided the registrant does not maintain control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR or SBS.

Q: Is it necessary to send notification to ATF and receive acknowledgement that the SBR or SBS has been removed from the purview of the NFA before it may be sold as a GCA firearm?
There is no requirement for the possessor of a registered NFA firearm to notify ATF that the firearm has been removed from the purview of the NFA. However, ATF recommends the possessor notify the NFA Branch of such changes in writing so that the possessor is not mistakenly identified as the owner if the firearm is later used in a crime. If, at the time of transfer, the firearm does not meet the definition of a SBR, it should be transferred without filing the NFA transfer application and without payment of the transfer tax.

Q: If I remove the short barrel from my SBR or SBS, may I move the firearm across state lines without the submission of ATF Form 5320.20, Application to Transport or to Temporarily Export Certain Firearms?
If the registrant retains control over the parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm is still be subject to all requirements of the NFA. ATF recommends contacting law enforcement officials in the destination state to ensure compliance with state and local law.

Q: May the short barrel on an SBR or SBS be replaced with a long barrel for hunting or other purposes, with the intent of replacing the short barrel?
Yes, and you will not be required to again register the firearm before replacing the short barrel. ATF recommends written notification to the NFA Branch when a firearm’s configuration is permanently changed or removed from the purview of the NFA.

Q: May I transfer the receiver of a short-barrel rifle or shotgun to an FFL or to an individual as I would any GCA firearm?
Yes. A weapon that does not meet the definition of a NFA “firearm” is not subject to the NFA and a possessor or transferor needn’t comply with NFA requirements. The firearm is considered a GCA firearm and may be transferred under the provisions of that law.

Q: Who is responsible for notifying the NFA Branch when I transfer the GCA firearm to a FFL or another individual?
There is no requirement that the transferor or transferee of a GCA firearm notify the NFA branch of a transfer or that either party determine whether the firearm was previously registered under the NFA. There is no also no requirement for the registrant or possessor of a NFA firearm to notify ATF of the removal of features that caused the firearm to be subject to the NFA; however, ATF recommends the owner notify the NFA Branch in writing if a firearm is permanently removed from the NFA.

Q: How do I properly record the sale or disposition of a receiver that is registered in the NFRTR but is no longer a NFA firearm? Will ATF Industry Operations Investigators be aware that the NFA firearm (SBR or SBS) no longer exist?
A FFL should note a disposition in the A&D record only when the firearm is transferred out of his/her inventory. Title 27 Code of Federal Regulations, part 478.125 does not require an annotation declaring that a firearm is a GCA or NFA firearm. Any such notation would be at the FFL’s discretion. If the firearm is subject to the NFA at the time of transfer, the licensee is required to comply with the applicable transfer and possession regulations. Any inventory report should reflect the firearms currently registered to the FFL under the NFA. Therefore, ATF recommends written notification to the NFA Branch when a firearm is removed from the purview of the NFA.

Q: If removal and destruction or disposition of the short barrel removes the firearm from the purview NFA, is there a minimum time period the barrel must remain unattached for the firearm to not be regulated under the NFA?
The temporary removal of the barrel for repair or change of caliber does not remove a NFA firearm from the purview of the NFA. If the registrant maintains control of the parts required for assembly of a SBR, he or she must maintain the registration as a SBS or SBS regardless of the length of time that the barrel is unattached.

The FAQ is not clear about transferring an already registered, but stripped down, rifle to someone who's the subject of that registration as a GCA firearm...but it seems MIGHTY treacherous ground.

Fortunately we now know that's not the case.

Bubbles
January 9, 2013, 03:59 PM
I'm not going to speak on the SBR as it sounds like that's been straightened out.

Regarding the suppressor, just because your dealer ordered it from AAC or a distributor does NOT mean that AAC or the distributor actually has it on their books. With popular suppressors this is unfortunately all too common. So, your dealer (and thus you) may be waiting for the manufacturer to make the suppressor, file the Form 2 to register it, then file the Form 3 and wait for the approval to ship it.

We've run into this with YHM's titanium suppressors. They are superb, in high demand - and YHM unfortunately has a hard time getting the material required to meet that demand. We placed an order last August for several of them and were told at that time that they wouldn't be making the suppressors until now. Of course we passed that along to our customers and gave them the option to cancel the order (none did). I don't expect to see those particular suppressors until March at the earliest, and only then can my customers start their Form 4's.

NFA is a waiting game. If your local dealer has to order the firearm it's an even longer wait. In the future if you don't want to wait, don't buy what your dealer doesn't have in stock.

Gato Montés
January 9, 2013, 06:20 PM
And if it makes the OP feel any better, my suppressor took 6 months from time of purchase to it arriving in the shop, and that is after the shop quoted me around 3 weeks time. Patience is one half of the NFA game, proper communication and trust between dealer and individual is another. If these shops would just explain what is going on a tad bit better I think we could cut down on these panic stricken threads almost entirely (mine included).

It was nice of them to help you out with the Form 1 though.

Aaron Baker
January 9, 2013, 06:37 PM
The FAQ is not clear about transferring an already registered, but stripped down, rifle to someone who's the subject of that registration as a GCA firearm...but it seems MIGHTY treacherous ground.

Actually, I don't think it's all that treacherous of a ground based on the ATF's FAQs that you posted. (Thanks for those, by the way. They're very informative.)

Let me quote a few of their FAQs to try to illustrate why I think it's okay to transfer the receiver before the stamp comes back.

(NOTE: I am attorney, but I'm not providing to legal advice to anyone reading this thread, so this is just my opinion and you should be very careful before acting on my opinion.)

The situation in question is this (at least far as my hypothetical goes): dealer is in possession of a factory SBR'd AR15 on a Form 3. Customer wants to buy the rifle, and fills out a Form 4 and mails it off to the ATF. Before the approved tax stamp arrives, the dealer has the customer fill out a 4473 and transfers the receiver to the customer, minus the short-barreled upper. The customer can then put a long-barrel upper on the receiver while he waits for the stamp. Once the stamp arrives, dealer hands him the short-barreled upper and the transaction is completed.

According to the ATF:

Q: May I transfer the receiver of a short-barrel rifle or shotgun to an FFL or to an individual as I would any GCA firearm?
Yes. A weapon that does not meet the definition of a NFA “firearm” is not subject to the NFA and a possessor or transferor needn’t comply with NFA requirements. The firearm is considered a GCA firearm and may be transferred under the provisions of that law.

So the dealer may transfer a stripped (or unbarreled) receiver to a customer as he would any other Title I firearm because it does not meet the definition of an NFA "firearm" in that configuration.

But he can't also separately give him the short-barreled upper until the tax stamp is in hand because:

If the possessor retains control over the barrel or other parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm would still be subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations.

That's the constructive possession answer. If you have the lower and the upper to make an SBR, you possess an SBR.

It bears noting that retaining only the bolt doesn't make any difference on an AR15. The lower receiver and the barreled upper are the only parts that matter and cannot be combined without the stamp in hand.

I do think this answer was really informative:

A FFL should note a disposition in the A&D record only when the firearm is transferred out of his/her inventory. Title 27 Code of Federal Regulations, part 478.125 does not require an annotation declaring that a firearm is a GCA or NFA firearm. Any such notation would be at the FFL’s discretion. If the firearm is subject to the NFA at the time of transfer, the licensee is required to comply with the applicable transfer and possession regulations. Any inventory report should reflect the firearms currently registered to the FFL under the NFA. Therefore, ATF recommends written notification to the NFA Branch when a firearm is removed from the purview of the NFA.

The way I read that, the dealer must note that he has sold the receiver on the 4473 when he does it. And he must comply with the NFA statutes, but a bare receiver isn't an NFA firearm.

Basically, what the ATF is saying is that an SBR is only an SBR when it's configured as an SBR, or when a person has both parts in his possession. So if the dealer transfers the receiver as he must eventually do anyway, he'll note in his book that it's transferred. He doesn't have to do any additional record-keeping related to the NFA in his bound book according to that answer.

But once he gets the approved Form 4 back, then he can transfer (hand over) the other half (the barreled upper), and the NFA transfer will also be complete.

Anyway, that's how I analyze the situation. Maybe the ATF would disagree. I'm certainly no expert on reading their minds.

A letter to the tech branch on this subject would be interesting.

Aaron

kell490
January 12, 2013, 12:26 AM
When I bought my 2 machine guns in 1994 after paying for both I went down to get the Local DA's office to sign off they told me I had to wait 6 months because I had just moved to Arizona. My dealer argued with them a little but I told him not to bother because it would just make more trouble for me. I waited 6 months then we sent it in to ATF that took 7 more months. This all while I had put out $3000 for my 1919 and $1750 for my M16 :) Sounds like nothing now but I was poor then only 25 years old, but I knew things were going up and it was then or never. Your dealer might not be experienced with the transfers so it took him a little longer. The guy I went through had been a class 3 from the 70's he knew what he was doing.

Swing
January 12, 2013, 09:16 PM
$3000 for my 1919 and $1750 for my M16

:what:

Nice timing. :D

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