I am getting a bit nervous as a Marine


PDA






gdcpony
January 8, 2013, 09:32 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Pvf7wVsAp60
I worry when I see these on my Facebook page. I am a SSgt in the USMC, and did take an oath. Until I receive an illegal order, the government is not asking me to violate it. If they send me to seize a law biding persons weapons, then I will refuse. If they ask me to harm Americans for no valid reason, I will refuse. Until then I am a Marine.

When you post about resisting any new regulation against the 2A, remember that those enforcing the rules will likely not be the ones who made the rules. I cannot say whether I will obey them, but that will be as a citizen not as a Marine. Getting military members on board with this type of video could lead to me having to face one of my own Marines when they think it is time to arrest government officials for treason. Someone's son, brother, father, or even daughter. I do not want that. I also understand the freedoms I defend allow for this video to be up and am proud of that.

It is up to us as citizens to decide the outcome of any new laws, not as military members. I will defend our right to do so. Contact your reps, make your voice heard, have your friends do the same, and support groups that support the 2nd. For now that is the right thing to do IMHO. Get active in this fight the right way, please! I will back you as I am one of you. That part of the video is great. I have done so as Mr. George D. Clayton.

However, SSgt Clayton has an obligation and for right now that is to follow lawful orders of my superiors- the highest of which was chosen by the citizens whether we like it or not. When that portion conflicts with another portion "defending against all enemies, foreign and domestic" I will choose. Hopefully, I never have to. The military CANNOT dictate domestic policy. If it does we will be in worse shape than we are now.

If this thread is inappropriate, I apologize to the Mods. Please, move or lock it as needed, but please leave it up to be seen. I am simply concerned for the direction of this video and its ilk though.

If you enjoyed reading about "I am getting a bit nervous as a Marine" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
ApacheCoTodd
January 8, 2013, 09:46 PM
I had two points in my career at which I took an absolute and adamant stance against "lawful orders" but I was always in Special Forces where lateral thinking is not so uncommon.

It'll be on you and those about you to make your own call. I can't imagine things getting to a point where orders will be easily or realistically debatable based upon your oath.

Peer, profesional and legal pressures will be hard to stand up against - just make certain you're in the right before standing up as you don't want to be a tool of either un-American leadership nor conspiracists.

Also - I recall the aspect of my many oaths which I held most dear was the statement to "...support and defend the constitution against..."

Additionally - never forget the learnings of the My Lai scenario. We were continually reminded that just because it's an order doesn't admonish one of certain responsibilities and or guilt.

gdcpony
January 8, 2013, 10:00 PM
Also - I recall the aspect of my many oaths which I held most dear was the statement to "...support and defend the constitution against..."

Additionally - never forget the learnings of the My Lai scenario. We were continually reminded that just because it's an order doesn't admonish one of certain responsibilities and or guilt.
True, but where do we begin and end that? If I carry my personal- that is to say Mr. Clayton's not SSgt Clayton's- interpretation of the Second Amendment to this, then there are already laws on the books in many states that should be struck down in that defense. There in lies a rub. The courts have only ruled on a few of these. CA leads my mind as a state where civil war should reign if my personal beliefs were followed.

Should a ban pass (please, no!), it is because of the voters who put those who made the law into office. If a court upholds this, then it becomes the new interpretation of the Constitution.

Also, since the lawmakers were put into office by voters, the voters could be interpreted as the enemy as well!

Wow, you could go nuts thinking of all the spins that can be applied!

But I am not one who decides this. There are those appointed and or elected to make these decisions, not a single SSgt.

M2 Carbine
January 8, 2013, 10:03 PM
One thing to keep in mind is, "I was only following orders" did not work for the Nazis at Nuremberg and it won't be a legal or moral defense for following a unconstitutional order here.

gdcpony
January 8, 2013, 10:22 PM
I feel it may be needed to point out that if I am called upon to imprison/kill Americans, it will end there unless they are themselves attacking Americans.

There will likely be no ban if my read is correct, but registration is worse to me. It leads to only one thing. If I am involved in that phase (confiscation) then I will refuse simple as that. It is no where stated that I will be ordered into an American's home to take his personal property. I am not an LEO with a warrant. That I can fight legally, and morally.

However, the way the video presents itself in the beginning especially is that we will be called to usurp lawfully elected officials for treason. Also not in my realm. Sorry.

Will I register my AR's if told? None of anyone's business. And if anyone knocks on my door demanding my firearms, they better have prayed hard and brought lots of back up. And that is before my wife gets involved at which point you might hear the fight in CA. However, these are personal acts, not taken as a military member. I will have acknowledged that I have thrown away my military ties before then.

rswartsell
January 8, 2013, 10:23 PM
I'm not a Marine or Special Forces or UDT/Navy Seal,

I servred during the Vietnam era enlisting the first day out of high school with the Air Weather Service with both the Air Force and Army (the Department of the Navy trained their own weather geeks). My service included time with combat WETM. Attached to the TOC of combat units and service teams with both the Second Armoured Division and the First Air Cav. Think artlllery spotter or air support officer.

I had occasion to contemplate these same issues years ago. Vietnam was something of a turning point in the unquestioned belief in mission of the WWII era. That however was not the origin of the "lawful order" concept.

I personaly believe that you must have fidelty to your oath. Without this you will find yourself without moral anchor in the most trying circumstances of anyones life. Soldiers (Sailors/Marines) must be apolitical, defending the Constitution from enemies foreign and domestic, recognizing lawful authority without hesitation. Note that I said "hesitation" and not question.

At least theoretically, you could conceivably be given an unlawful order. Think the Cain Mutiny, Red Tide, etc. Also theoretically, the US Military is prohibited (with notable exceptions) from taking aggressive action against the US populus in general. Some severe machinations required for Eisenhower to send the 82nd Airborne to the University of Mississippi. Yet it happened.

I do not envy you. Your oath may place you in difficult defining moments where the road requires much. The lieutenant who led the Ohio National Guard onto the Kent State campus screwed up royally. As did Lieutenant Cali at My Lai. Colonel Robert E. Lee made what turned out to be an unfortuate decision and prior to the Civil War he was judged as one of the finest officers in the US military.

You must in complicated times simplify. This country was founded with principles in mind and to the best of human ability structures have been created to allow them to survive and prosper.

Military service for volunteers has always been an all in proposition in regard to serving the common good above personal interest, even at the cost of your life. I find myself preaching and it makes me uncomfortable. Other men have faced this dliemma and the best I can tell you is you are not free to operate on your opinions while you serve, but as a counterbalance your duty to defy unlawful orders is as true as your duty to obey lawful ones.

My apologies for pontificating.

gossamer
January 8, 2013, 10:29 PM
You make very thoughtful and valid points. People often forget government is the People. Even if I personally disagree with the votes of that government it is, nonetheless, the will of my fellow citizens as reflected in their votes. A law passed by the Legislature, interpreted by the Judiciary, and enforced by the Executive is a law per our constitutional process.

sappyg
January 8, 2013, 10:29 PM
Why not write your representatives. You will get a response. Let that be a guide.

taliv
January 8, 2013, 10:39 PM
gdcpony, that is well-thought-out and righteous position. you can count on things to get confusing. don't let your personal opinion distract you. as a Marine, there is still right and wrong. do your best to help your fellow Marines understand the difference too

CTGunner
January 8, 2013, 11:00 PM
Interesting.

Deaf Smith
January 8, 2013, 11:02 PM
Just read this and then go back to sleep.

http://blog.wilsoncombat.com/paul-howe/2nd-amendment-and-the-kool-aid-drinkers-by-paul-howe/

DO write your Congressmen and Senators but... calm down some, ok?

Deaf

788Ham
January 8, 2013, 11:07 PM
gdcpony,

First off, I want to thank you for your service in this trying situation around the world, not only in the CONUS. I served back in the 60's, '67 - 71 ", USN, joined Jan. of my senior year, if I wasn't so old now, I'd re-enlist again tomorrow! Do what God places on your heart, you have the mindset of the following orders down, just remember, Semper Fi !

rduckwor
January 8, 2013, 11:18 PM
You're a Marine. You'll know right from wrong when the time comes. Thanks for thinking while you have the chance. And thanks for your service. Stay strong, you are not alone.

RMD

USAF_Vet
January 8, 2013, 11:36 PM
Semper Fi, Marine.


FWIW, I have not watched the linked YouTube video; no speakers at work.

One of the reasons I got out of the military is because I had a difficult time with the fact that I had to take another human life, even though it was in defense of my own. I could not fathom the idea of turning a rifle, or any other weapon (like a hellfire missile fired from a drone) on an American citizen, regardless of the situation.

I've since dealt with my combat experience (no thanks to the USAF, by the way) and moved on with my life. I accept the fact, especially now I've joined the ranks of CPL holders, that I may have to take another life, given the circumstances, again in self-defense.

I believe the line between defensive action to spare innocent lives, and offensive action to eliminate perceived enemy combatants gets very blurry when on American soil. I hope the day when Marines, Soldiers, Airmen and Sailors turn their weapons of war on their own country never happens, not even in a military coup to gain control of the government. But if it does, it'll be up to each individual who serves to answer the questions you are asking yourself. You will not be alone. Will there be dim witted people who will blindly serve out their illegal orders? Most certainly. Some will do it with a fervor. I think a lot of those who have no qualms fighting overseas would not have the same level of commitment here at home, fighting their friends and neighbors.

Be true to yourself, be true to your oath to defend the Constitution, now and after you leave the service, and remember that doing what is right might not always be the popular choice, or the easy choice.

If there is an armed insurrection in this country, Americans will be killing other Americans. At first glance and even after close inspection, it would be difficult to ascertain which side is 'right' and which side is 'wrong.' If that situation ever comes near me, I'll only fight to clear the road and get the hell out of Dodge with my family in tow. It'll only become my war when it's brought to my doorstep, and then shooting Americans, even those following illegal orders, would be a last resort. Shooting the Soldier or Police officer at my door who is there to confiscate my guns would be the last action I'd even make as a free man, so it's hardly even much of an option.

FuzzyBunny
January 8, 2013, 11:39 PM
Words get twisted many ways!
Remember New Orleans?
In many cases a mil person will be detatched to a state and made a special agent or trooper or just given a badge. That way you are not acting as a mil guy even though you are in full mil gear. They will send out 4 or 8 "new officers" to support one state officer.

They play the word game to make it legal under the color of law with you as a target. Remember the New Orleans "officer" that I think was really a California trooper the day before? Many people remember that and will not forget.

As for me I will not be doing a linebacker job on a little old lady or anyone who follows the constitution. Unless my life is about to be taken.

This is just one way they "apply the law" to make it legal for you to do what you are told. Right or wrong.

ps. I don't own a TV on purpose now. Who is this so called British "news" guy P.Morgan? Saw some of his interviews and reports on the net. That man needs to be put on a slow boat on China and tell the Chinese how to run China. I'll bet in 24 hours his organs will be up for sale.

gdcpony
January 8, 2013, 11:42 PM
I am going to decide if it comes to that. I am worried more about the initial message my Marines will receive from it. I am 37 and have learned to wait and see then act. They have learned Modern Warfare 3 where one person can beat a hundred troops if he is fast enough (and the reset button is there). It only takes one to think he is going to be a hero. I would prefer it not be mine.

Therefore, I have posted the original post to my status. To give any Marine who sees it a taste of temperament before the video. I am sure the link will be viewed by my seniors (oh well), who will talk it over.

You all may not realize what is going on right now inside certain platoons. We all love AR's. Wonder why? All this BS is causing allot of tensions as this same debate rolls through my unit.

opto_isolator
January 8, 2013, 11:44 PM
Excellent post. Keep in mind that there were conscientious objectors in the military that didn't follow orders by Bush to go into Iraq since it was an invalid war. The were probably disciplined - but, well, it's your conscience that you need to live with.

trigga
January 9, 2013, 12:03 AM
quite a touchy subject. glad it was posted cause it's exactly how i feel. disarm the people and history will repeat itself. Stalin, Mao, Hitler, now Obama...

762gunr
January 9, 2013, 12:06 AM
jarheads arn't allowed to deal with the public for obvious reasons anyway.

SilentStalker
January 9, 2013, 12:27 AM
Should a ban pass (please, no!), it is because of the voters who put those who made the law into office. If a court upholds this, then it becomes the new interpretation of the Constitution.

This is what bothers me. Your supposed elected officials are skirting the Constitution to rewrite it how they see fit without any consideration for the civilians they supposedly represent. They seem to have no moral compass whatsoever. You have to draw the line somewhere. When you take a law or set of laws that have been tried and true that represent liberty for the whole and try to rewrite it how you see fit, it becomes morally wrong IMO. The people supposedly voted and sworn in are the enemy of the Constituion simply by their actions. In most people's books this is treason!

The Constitution was never meant to be amended into oblivion. Unfortunately, if the time comes you will have to choose a side that closely goes with your own morals. You have to be able to determine what is right or wrong despite what some lawmaker pushed with a pen. It's as simple as that. Besides, we all know that big money places or certainly helps to place certain individuals in power to meet their own needs. People ^^^do not make millions and billions of dollars in donations without expecting something in return. You see as soon as money became involved in politics we were doomed. It should have remained a position one held for the sole purpose of serving their country. It was never meant to be a job and certainly not one that was expected to be held for 50 years or so.*

Something that made it very clear for me was when these so called lawmakers excluded themselves from the very laws they were writing to place upon the people. That is morally wrong to me. If you are going to make it law then it needs to be across the board. No favorites, no skirting, straight across the board. If it was right, fair, and just then they would not be excluding themselves. To put this simply I will get rid of my stuff when the entire military and LEO get rid of theirs. I mean we should all be safe once all arms are gone, right? If so then there is no reason for them to have them either. No offense to anyone but what is to stop someone in the military or LEO from going crazy on some people and doing some really tragic thing? They are just people like everyone else and despite the brotherhood corruption can run rampant even in the best of men.*

SilentStalker
January 9, 2013, 12:32 AM
One more thing, to me, if you cannot uphold one amendment, then why uphold any of them? You see what I am getting at here? Once you let one go you might as well let them all go. There has to be a solid foundation to build from, otherwise nothing sticks and who is to say what would really ever be law?

rswartsell
January 9, 2013, 12:33 AM
IMHO,

This is a first time kind of problem as youtube wasn't around when insurrection impulses last went through the ranks.

Principles have not changed and if your troops are viewing this, perhaps you should remind them of the concepts of "duty", "lawful authority" and the "apolitical soldier". It would help if they have more faith in their current chain of command than they do in an anonymous youtube author. Remind them that youtube authors are hardly "apolitical".

SilentStalker
January 9, 2013, 12:51 AM
Then again, to make matters worse, what is morally right or wrong could be argued to be up to society or the individual themselves. May God help us!

Shadow 7D
January 9, 2013, 01:10 AM
You average Army, Marine Jr. officer or NCO, along with the Jr. enlisted will follow the orders that are given them, that's what they are trained to do,

it's up to those who don't do the group think, (and don't expect the brass to say no...they are political creatures, that's how they get promoted) to explain WHY the right answer is to say "No Sir, that is against my oath and what this country stands for"

Just don't expect anybody to like you, one or two, done correctly will cause grave difficulty to a company, and it will spread, or at least I hope so. Too many will stand aside and say nothing to protect themselves and their careers. And the kids, they are not taught better nor encouraged to learn better, it's up to use to educate them.

poboy6
January 9, 2013, 01:34 AM
I agree that there are too many people basically warning military and LEO's to "uphold the Constitution".

These people probably don't understand and I seriously doubt your average Marine will be called upon to kick in his neighbor's door. There is a segment of Law Enforcement that seems to have no problem whatsoever kicking in peoples' doors so I would think the scaredy-cats should be addressing them and not members of our military.

If you are ever asked to invade an American's home to shoot them I hope you will do the right thing.

There is a lot of fear-mongering going on right now from pretty much everywhere. It is very sad.

gdcpony
January 9, 2013, 02:01 AM
I agree that there are too many people basically warning military and LEO's to "uphold the Constitution".

These people probably don't understand and I seriously doubt your average Marine will be called upon to kick in his neighbor's door. There is a segment of Law Enforcement that seems to have no problem whatsoever kicking in peoples' doors so I would think the scaredy-cats should be addressing them and not members of our military.

If you are ever asked to invade an American's home to shoot them I hope you will do the right thing.

There is a lot of fear-mongering going on right now from pretty much everywhere. It is very sad.
Worry not about that. I will not- as I have stated- kick in any doors i am not being shot at from. Easy to say since I am not a grunt anyways.

I think what makes all this so bothersome is not just the gun control. Even the dumbest Marine can see the country is getting ready for... something. And it would make anyone pretty nervous to have a restriction placed on their personal protection (from private and government agencies) in these times.

In the military maybe you see everything as a war about to begin. Only with this issue and these times it isn't Korea, Iran, Syria, or anywhere foreign country, but US. It's personal this time. With the economy, social issues, and now the refusal of many to see the difference between free men and slaves (armed and unarmed) you can see where a young guy trained to go to war could get antsy.

Hell, my oldest (14) has said she will die before they take a gun out of our house! Even she through school has caught on to it. she honestly believes the world did end as predicted the moment that monster entered that school. Nothing will be the same "because now they have an excuse, daddy." Maybe I am worrying about that too. My Marines, my kids, love 'em both to death and don't want them making rash decisions based on what may be true, but ill voiced at times.

I must admit I add some fuel with my adamant and outspoken support of the 2A. It is the Amendment that protects the rest in my view. Seeing it take a hit is like seeing my country wasted and I say so often and loudly. It may be rubbing off a bit too much.

Deanimator
January 9, 2013, 06:50 AM
As an infantry officer instructing North Korean weapons and tactics in Korea in '81, I subverted an order by the Division G-2, which I considered both illegal, wildly irresponsible and which could have injured or killed several service members, as well as damaging valuable government property.

Warp
January 9, 2013, 07:18 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Pvf7wVsAp60
I worry when I see these on my Facebook page. I am a SSgt in the USMC, and did take an oath. Until I receive an illegal order, the government is not asking me to violate it. If they send me to seize a law biding persons weapons, then I will refuse. If they ask me to harm Americans for no valid reason, I will refuse. Until then I am a Marine.

When you post about resisting any new regulation against the 2A, remember that those enforcing the rules will likely not be the ones who made the rules. I cannot say whether I will obey them, but that will be as a citizen not as a Marine. Getting military members on board with this type of video could lead to me having to face one of my own Marines when they think it is time to arrest government officials for treason. Someone's son, brother, father, or even daughter. I do not want that. I also understand the freedoms I defend allow for this video to be up and am proud of that.

It is up to us as citizens to decide the outcome of any new laws, not as military members. I will defend our right to do so. Contact your reps, make your voice heard, have your friends do the same, and support groups that support the 2nd. For now that is the right thing to do IMHO. Get active in this fight the right way, please! I will back you as I am one of you. That part of the video is great. I have done so as Mr. George D. Clayton.

However, SSgt Clayton has an obligation and for right now that is to follow lawful orders of my superiors- the highest of which was chosen by the citizens whether we like it or not. When that portion conflicts with another portion "defending against all enemies, foreign and domestic" I will choose. Hopefully, I never have to. The military CANNOT dictate domestic policy. If it does we will be in worse shape than we are now.

If this thread is inappropriate, I apologize to the Mods. Please, move or lock it as needed, but please leave it up to be seen. I am simply concerned for the direction of this video and its ilk though.

Doesn't matter. Not one bit.`

Ehtereon11B
January 9, 2013, 08:08 AM
I worry when I see these on my Facebook page. I am a SSgt in the USMC, and did take an oath. Until I receive an illegal order, the government is not asking me to violate it. If they send me to seize a law biding persons weapons, then I will refuse. If they ask me to harm Americans for no valid reason, I will refuse. Until then I am a Marine.

Same boat for me. I am an NCO in the Army as well as a LEO. If I got the order to go door to door and take someone's 2A away, I get to tell them to pound sand twice. I think that little clause in the Oath of enlistment is the only reason why they haven't tried it yet.

Warp
January 9, 2013, 08:11 AM
Same boat for me. I am an NCO in the Army as well as a LEO. If I got the order to go door to door and take someone's 2A away, I get to tell them to pound sand twice. I think that little clause in the Oath of enlistment is the only reason why they haven't tried it yet.

Do you really think they would start out with a door to door confiscation?

They are smarter and more experienced than that. It will be incremental. A handful of 'trouble makers', or whatever fancy label they come up with, will probably be the ice breakers. You're just backing up a few patrol officers because the SWAT team is not available/able to handle this workload at this time. That's all.

Silverado6x6
January 9, 2013, 08:20 AM
First thing they will do is to infiltrate as many militias as possible because people are seeking out ways to coordinate themselves for the Second American Revolution. Knock down the militia, paint them as crazed religious zealots out to get revenge against paying their taxes.

And also will be the plan to target rabblerousers and openly aggressive posters on forums like this. Especially the ones that actually have cojones, brains and tactical training, so they will search for veterans and start rounding them up for mental evaluations.

Al Thompson
January 9, 2013, 10:21 AM
Thread drift.

If you enjoyed reading about "I am getting a bit nervous as a Marine" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!