Can pre-ban mags really be banned? (NY)


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GiorgioG
January 8, 2013, 11:04 PM
So in NY we're totally screwed - here's what the NY State Attorney General is proposing...


Complete ban on 'high capacity' magazines (including pre-ban)
Microstamping
Stricter mental health related laws
'Stockpiling prevention'
Require IDs for ammo purchases (killing online sales)


Source: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/552217-gun-proposals-from-district-attorneys-association.html

My question is - how can you make something that's legal to own illegal, after the fact? So assuming this is enacted as-is, it will make thousands of NY residents instant criminals. How is that legal?

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USAF_Vet
January 8, 2013, 11:11 PM
It wouldn't be instant, of course. They would give you time before the criminality of the items went into effect. In other words, if the law passes, they will give you XX days to turn them in before possession makes you a criminal.

And unfortunately, they can make something once legal to own illegal. Doesn't make it right. They did it with alcohol, ivory and incandescent light bulbs. They can do it to simple pieces of metal and plastic as well.

On a different note, what the heck is "stockpiling preventions"? Do you have to turn in your spent brass before you can get permission to buy more ammo? Or severe rationing of ammo linking purchases of ammo to your drivers license? Seems like that is another pointless gesture that would be quite easy to bypass as a state law.

22-rimfire
January 8, 2013, 11:18 PM
There are no serial numbers on magazines. If such a law passes, do what feels right for you.

I was wondering what stockpiling prevent is? It is possible to require "proper" storage of ammunition over a certain amount such as done by the manufacturers (aka bunkers).

thump_rrr
January 8, 2013, 11:31 PM
In Canada the government passed Bill C-68 in 1995 making all pistol magazines holding more than 10 rounds, and all semi auto rifle magazines holding more than 5 rounds prohibited devices.
With this prohibited device charge you are eligible for an all expenses paid 5 year vacation courtesey of the federal government.

A time period was given to modify existing magazines to comply with the new law.
Importation of all new magazines must comply with the new laws.

This is what our magpul packaging looks like.
There is a rivet to prevent the follower from going down far enough to put more than 5 rounds in it.

Let's not forget that an aluminum 1/8" pop rivet will be enough to prevent any criminal from going forward with what he was about to do.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c40/Thump_rrr/FDE-2_zps27600479.jpg

GiorgioG
January 8, 2013, 11:37 PM
I'd almost wish the 'pro-gun' folks would push for a poison pill clause. As soon as another 'mass shooting occurs', which these new-fangled laws that are supposed to prevent don't work, the entire AWB should be repealled.

Realistically this isn't going to happen...but I bet you the anti's wouldn't go for it...why? because they know it won't prevent anything...and in a year or two when some nutjob does this again, it would be repealed.

opto_isolator
January 8, 2013, 11:42 PM
They can't ban them if you don't turn them in or register them. *note - this is not legal advice or advocating the breaking of any laws.*

22-rimfire
January 8, 2013, 11:43 PM
There have been a lot of threads about "gun control" lately. Just know that gun control is people control and those people are the honest law abiding people who actually care enough to abide by the law. Criminals don't care and they never have cared.

If they want to do something that might actually help pervent a "sandy hook", they need to look at mental health issues, enforcement, and guards (aka resource officers).

Pat M
January 8, 2013, 11:46 PM
I am less concerned with what the district attorneys are suggesting, than I am about the bills that are currently before the NY State Senate Codes Committee.

GiorgioG
January 8, 2013, 11:48 PM
The problem of not turning them in or destroying them is that they can never see the light of day, not at the range, nor in a self-defense situation (not that I'm advocating using an AR for home defense...)

Yep - we're in the process of trying to relocate to NC, but we have to sell the house first...and risking being arrested for a class D felony in the meantime is no joke either. Will all of this come to pass in the next few months (hopefully we're out of here by then)? Maybe, maybe not.

I'm contacting all my reps all the same, but it doesn't seem to make a bit of difference.

browningguy
January 9, 2013, 12:20 AM
That's the government New Yorkers elected. And unfortunatly they can do whatever they want. Heck, in NYC they even tell you how big your coke can be.

Warp
January 9, 2013, 12:21 AM
I'd almost wish the 'pro-gun' folks would push for a poison pill clause. As soon as another 'mass shooting occurs', which these new-fangled laws that are supposed to prevent don't work, the entire AWB should be repealled.

Realistically this isn't going to happen...but I bet you the anti's wouldn't go for it...why? because they know it won't prevent anything...and in a year or two when some nutjob does this again, it would be repealed.

Connecticut already has/had two assault weapon bans.

GiorgioG
January 9, 2013, 12:27 AM
We still have the '94 ban in place unfortunately (no flash hider, adjustable stocks, > 10 round mags unless they're pre-ban, no 'shoulder thing that goes up' (barrel shrouds), and so on) ...like any of that prevented the lunatic in Webster, NY from killing 2 and injuring 2 more firefighters right before Christmas. Oh...he obtained the weapons through a straw purchase...sigh - these politicians are absolutely useless.

gunnutery
January 9, 2013, 12:35 AM
How is it that a state government could ban something outright (as in: turn them in or else), when the Feds can't do it? The US can only regulate something by creating a special tax for it.

Are the states set up differently to be able to truely ban something?

pendennis
January 9, 2013, 12:44 AM
You really need to find someone who specializes in constitutional law in New York, and can tell you what the current New York laws, as well as the New York consitution mention in regards to "ex post facto" laws or provisions. Ex post facto laws are retroactive laws.

In the U.S. Constitution, Congress is prohibited from passing ex post facto laws. This is not ironclad, however, especially with some tax laws.

gym
January 9, 2013, 01:17 AM
Having lived there and having had a NYC carry, for 23 years, they are the biggest pain in the ass you can ever imagine.You can't even buy a rifle or shotgun in the 5 boroughs of NYC anymore, I had to have my rifles driven out to LI and shipped from an FFL out there. Pistols were sent interdepartmentally when I moved, to a buddy who was a sheriff in Jupiter. You need a rifle shotgun license, and a carry permit. The carry permit is given to 1 out of 10,000 people. Now you need to show 50 grand a day in cash deposits minimum, when I got mine it was 5 thousand, 1973.
That should answer your question, they even banned some ammo, and didn't tell anyone, I ended up spending a year and a half going to court to get my guns back for that one. A cop saw my gun when my shirt went up while breaking up a fight. They spent 8 hours examining the bulletts. Then they screwed up so bad they were afraid of a law suit. You don't want to mention NYC and Guns in the same breath, It's the main reason I left.
Once you sell your business, you have to return the guns you had that your permit was issued for.
Having a mag that isn't legal will get your license suspended in a heartbeat.
It's just a horrible place to live.

Ehtereon11B
January 9, 2013, 07:58 AM
Complete ban on 'high capacity' magazines (including pre-ban)
Microstamping
Stricter mental health related laws
'Stockpiling prevention'
Require IDs for ammo purchases (killing online sales)

Going after magazines will be difficult since they are not numbered and little paper trail leading to them. My guess is they will just make the use of them illegal such as you have a carry permit but don't have a mag in it that can carry more than (the new law) X rounds. That's how it is right now. You can HAVE the mag that holds 10+ but don't you "DARE" use it.

Microstamping is a anti-gunners pipe dream. The technology to magically put a fingerprint from the firing pin onto a fired casing. The idea was introduced about a decade or so ago but the tech has not evolved for it yet. They can pass all the laws they want about it but until a manufacturer spends the BILLIONS of dollars needed to implement it, it won't happen. It is the same as passing a law on time travel, it doesn't exist...yet.

Stricter mental health laws seems to be the feel good method of this new round of gun control. We aren't taking away your guns per se, just taking away most rights with them. My concern is what counts as a mental health concern? I have PTSD, it is getting better with time. Does that mean the "black helicopters" are going to land on my lawn and ask to turn in my weapons? Where is the line drawn?

There are already laws about stockpiling and its "illegalness." Just go to your favorite search engine and look up popular "preppers" who have been arrested for stockpiling weapons and ammo. Not so much food. The nice little loophole about this is some churches (Mormon and Catholic) have ancient laws that encourage large families to stockpile supplies in case of emergency. The government seems real brave right now to take on the 2A but they will feel less strongly if you cite freedom of religion.

ApacheCoTodd
January 9, 2013, 11:57 AM
Alcohol has been, select fire (not already registered has been why not magazines? Don't kid yourselves, with enough political traction it's easy enough to ban ALL magazines of a given capacity.

FP1201
January 9, 2013, 12:14 PM
Well that's partially true; NY is really divided into two classes: NYC and the rest of the State. The City is so densely populated with liberal democrats that they sway the vote & representation of the rest of the State. Counties and Districts vary between Blue and Red, but for the most part we suffer the way Texas suffers due to Cities like Austin and Dallas. City folks have a different mentality and seem to expect hand outs & Police protection, while the rest of us work and depend on ourselves.
Albany is all about Politics, and for once I'm glad the most dysfunctional legislative body in the Country can't get anything done. Ironically there ARE millions of gun owners, tens of thousands of Handgun Licensees, hundreds of Clubs, and other shooters in NY, yet most won't get off their arse or are "Fudds" that are only concerned with their Trap shotguns or Deer rifles. malign one, and the rest can easily be included. If you don't belong to: NYSRPA, NRA, SCOPE, GOA, SAF, or other organizations, I STRONGLY urge you to join at least one. If you just can't afford the 15~25 bucks, then say so and someone will pay your way. NUMBERS & MONEY are the two most important ingredients needed to keep the anti's at bay.

FP1201
January 9, 2013, 12:25 PM
Having been in the EMS field for over 16 years, and having had worked with and been a patient of Military/VA health care providers I can attest that not all are qualified to make a proper or positive diagnoses. Do you realize how easy it is for someone in a layman position to say "we'll this person isn't acting right, so he's mentally incompetent, and we'd better take his guns." Look at what many of the heavily prescribed medications will do. Have you read the inserts warning of serious side affects such as suicide or "other" serious risks? (suicide by Cop?) How about this person: F'em all, I'm going out and taking everyone that made me miserable with me. Sounds like he's a danger, but maybe not; ever hear kids fighting where one will get up proclaiming "this isn't over yet, I'll get ......and come back." Bravado from someone that just got his butt kicked. Could he? yes, but for the most part they're the words of a sore looser, but say them in school and you'll be removed in handcuffs. maybe more gun control is the answer, but I don't believe their answer is the one that's going to make everything all right.

pseudonymity
January 9, 2013, 07:37 PM
So in NY we're totally screwed - here's what the NY State Attorney General is proposing...


Complete ban on 'high capacity' magazines (including pre-ban)
Microstamping
Stricter mental health related laws
'Stockpiling prevention'
Require IDs for ammo purchases (killing online sales)


Source: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/552217-gun-proposals-from-district-attorneys-association.html

My question is - how can you make something that's legal to own illegal, after the fact? So assuming this is enacted as-is, it will make thousands of NY residents instant criminals. How is that legal?

Complete ban on 'high capacity' magazines (including pre-ban)

This one is hard to see happening - I do not see how confiscation would not be an unconstitutional taking, unless just compensation was provided. Where is the money for compensation, and how is the level of compensation determined?

Microstamping

NY has been around and around on this one - we wasted millions on COBIS, I just do not see anybody wanting to pay for another round of the same thing that failed last time.

Stricter mental health related laws

In general terms, this could be a good thing. This is probably just a talking point to keep the NY Senate members from just considering the package a non-starter.

'Stockpiling prevention'

This is concerning, we will have to see what this means. I suspect that it may not go far though - I do not see Appleseed shoots being made essentially impossible because you can not buy a brick of .22lr.

Require IDs for ammo purchases (killing online sales)

This one is very concerning, and its evil twin - requiring all FTF transactions to go through a FFL.

pseudonymity
January 9, 2013, 07:45 PM
Albany is all about Politics, and for once I'm glad the most dysfunctional legislative body in the Country can't get anything done.

The state government is definitely about politics, but it is certainly not dysfunctional - it is actually exceptionally efficient. The problem is that the NY legislative and executive governments exist to pass laws that moderate or restrict the freedoms of the citizens of NY.

The scary thing about NY government is not that it is dysfunctional, the scary thing is that it is so efficient at getting things done, where things = loss of freedoms.

pseudonymity
January 9, 2013, 07:56 PM
Alcohol has been, select fire (not already registered has been why not magazines? Don't kid yourselves, with enough political traction it's easy enough to ban ALL magazines of a given capacity.

I am not certain about local bans, but the possession of alcohol was not banned nationwide, just the "manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors". If you had alcohol before the 18th Amendment passed, it was not contraband. NY has that now for mags - mags manufactured after 9/14/94 have to be 10 rounds or less.

Select fire was not banned in 1934, it was taxed. The closing of the NFA registry in 1986 was done via an ambitious interpretation of of the commerce clause.

Capping all mags at 7 rounds or less would be an interesting fight - it would almost amount to a de facto blanket ban on semi automatic handguns, and that would be a close constitutional call I think.

Fryerpower
January 9, 2013, 08:11 PM
Every place I've ever bought ammo from on line required a photo of my drivers license be on file before they would complete the sale. ID to buy is one thing. NO on line sales is another.

Rationing ammo sales like the way many states ration sudafed would be a big pile of suck.

Jim

Warp
January 9, 2013, 08:20 PM
Every place I've ever bought ammo from on line required a photo of my drivers license be on file before they would complete the sale.

I only remember providing that to one or two places. Most do not require photo ID...just like buying in person.

9MMare
January 10, 2013, 12:45 AM
The problem of not turning them in or destroying them is that they can never see the light of day, not at the range, nor in a self-defense situation (not that I'm advocating using an AR for home defense...)

Yep - we're in the process of trying to relocate to NC, but we have to sell the house first...and risking being arrested for a class D felony in the meantime is no joke either. Will all of this come to pass in the next few months (hopefully we're out of here by then)? Maybe, maybe not.

I'm contacting all my reps all the same, but it doesn't seem to make a bit of difference.

Best of luck to you and your family Giorgio.

Old Fuff
January 10, 2013, 01:00 AM
As a practical suggestion. Could gun clubs or other associations buy or build storage facilities just over the state line where these guns and magazines could be stored? I believe there are a lot of folks who live in California and have collections in Arizona.

GiorgioG
January 10, 2013, 01:21 AM
As a practical suggestion. Could gun clubs or other associations buy or build storage facilities just over the state line where these guns and magazines could be stored? I believe there are a lot of folks who live in California and have collections in Arizona.
That might work if you're close to the PA border - but that's 2.5 hours drive for me. Since I'm on my way out of the state, my solution would be (should this take effect while I'm still here) is either ship everything off to a friend in Colorado until I move to NC, or pay a local FFL to store it for me in the interim...

Either way it'd be a huge hassle for a law abiding citizen, just because these self-serving politicians want to further their own careers/agendas.

Old Fuff
January 10, 2013, 11:25 AM
I know, but it's a lot better then the situation in the U.K. where Olympic competitors have to store their guns and practice in France.

Anyway there is a ray of hope that ultimately the U.S. Supreme Court might rip part (if not all) of the rug out from under them. But that will take time, and the only practical solution may be out-of-state storage.

243winxb
January 10, 2013, 11:32 AM
AR 15 type guns & magazines will go the way of machine guns. They will be classified as NFA, with no new production for civilians. :(

jmorris
January 10, 2013, 11:41 AM
How is it that a state government could ban something outright (as in: turn them in or else), when the Feds can't do it?They can.

Warp
January 10, 2013, 06:05 PM
AR 15 type guns & magazines will go the way of machine guns. They will be classified as NFA, with no new production for civilians. :(

Negative, Ghostrider

Solo
January 10, 2013, 06:12 PM
Don't worry, we'll have Federation replicators soon.

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