Why the 9mm vs .45 debate? Where was this debate when 38sp was used?


PDA






777funk
January 9, 2013, 09:57 AM
I see this debate all the time. So that debate isn't the question here, I think overall most feel the .45 is a better defensive round but who knows the real answer. I guess the ones who've had to put both to the test would be the ones with the answer there. It does seem like the idea with 45 is impact the target in a big way and don't hurt anything else in the area (i.e. don't pass through).

But why didn't we hear about this as much when most police forces were carrying 38 special revolvers? 38's were used for decades. It's the same basic diameter as a 9mm. Is it a heavier or slower bullet thing? If balistics is done right, shouldn't ALL of the 9mm's energy be transfered to the target? In that case, wouldn't the 9mm be a much better round for protection than the old 38 cartridge?

Another thing I've wondered, couldn't someone create a mouse fart load for 9mm with a heavy bullet and low powder charge that would accomplish a similar idea to 45?

If you enjoyed reading about "Why the 9mm vs .45 debate? Where was this debate when 38sp was used?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
dodo bird
January 9, 2013, 10:02 AM
Because Al Gore had not invented the internet for us to discuss this before the 9 mm went to police departments

460Kodiak
January 9, 2013, 11:02 AM
But why didn't we hear about this as much when most police forces were carrying 38 special revolvers?

Such debates no doubt happened in police stations and around card tables all the time. However the creation of the internet has allowed people like you and I to have these conversations across digital card tables from anywhere in the world.

Also, police are most often issued guns and ammo. They don't necessarily choose the gun or cartridge themselves. .38 special ammo is still cheaper to this day than .45 ammo, so that no doubt has a bearing.

Wheel gunners, and I'm including myself in this, seem to have a bit of a crochity "This works great so don't monkey with it!" attitude. I have no doubt that older police captains and department heads and city officials back then got into a "Well this is how we do it, and it works!" mode, just as happens today.

Remeber, the standard .38 special was loaded a lot hotter back in those days, so energy transfer would be much higher than today's ammo. (I believe. Hopefully someone with more history knowledge will chime in on that.) Also, hollow point ammo changed the game as well. If you have an expanding bullet hitting a target and hopefully stopping in the target, do you need it as hot loaded?

In that case, wouldn't the 9mm be a much better round for protection than the old 38 cartridge?

Balistics on a 9mm are arguably better than a .38. However we could get into a lot of debate over "effectivness" of the different platforms and "shootability" since those are inherantly linked in a discussion of this sort. That part can and does go around and around on this forum all the time. Overpenetration can become an issue also if the bullet continues to penetrate.

Another thing I've wondered, couldn't someone create a mouse fart load for 9mm with a heavy bullet and low powder charge that would accomplish a similar idea to 45?

Yes, but velocity must be kept high enough to ensure bullet expanssion. Would it accomplish the same thing as a .45? Well, in some ways. But a better solution is to just buy a .45 and live happy.

smkummer
January 9, 2013, 11:08 AM
At the time, the 9mm and 45 auto were the US auto pistol service rounds. 38 Super needed a 1911 frame but 9mm had several frame options such as smaller. 40S&W was not around then. Revolver guys still carried revolvers with 38/357 chambered guns being at least 90% of what was carried by revolver people. This was also the time that 38 special came in many flavors including Super Vel and Plus P Plus not sold to civilians.

PabloJ
January 9, 2013, 11:30 AM
I see this debate all the time. So that debate isn't the question here, I think overall most feel the .45 is a better defensive round but who knows the real answer. I guess the ones who've had to put both to the test would be the ones with the answer there. It does seem like the idea with 45 is impact the target in a big way and don't hurt anything else in the area (i.e. don't pass through).

But why didn't we hear about this as much when most police forces were carrying 38 special revolvers? 38's were used for decades. It's the same basic diameter as a 9mm. Is it a heavier or slower bullet thing? If balistics is done right, shouldn't ALL of the 9mm's energy be transfered to the target? In that case, wouldn't the 9mm be a much better round for protection than the old 38 cartridge?

Another thing I've wondered, couldn't someone create a mouse fart load for 9mm with a heavy bullet and low powder charge that would accomplish a similar idea to 45?
There should be no debate. Just stand both cartridges next to one another. It should be obvious which is more effective. Now you know why Glock 21 is best all around combat pistol.

brnmw
January 9, 2013, 11:55 AM
Such debates no doubt happened in police stations and around card tables all the time. However the creation of the internet has allowed people like you and I to have these conversations across digital card tables from anywhere in the world.


This and because everyone has an opinion. ;)

And I will say yes, the .45 ACP is better on several fronts the only real drawbacks for some people I see is $$$ for ammo, the .45 ACP is more expensive to practice with and does have more recoil. In power terms it is a more effective round, but as with all things shot placement is key. The .9X19mm will kill make no mistake about that. G. Gifford's is a very lucky/ blessed women to be alive right now taking a shot like that. When she survived I kept hearing people say "That tears it I am selling my 9mm! I reminded them of the other "6 People" who did die that day.... so yes it will kill very effectively. (Bad Guy's beware)
IMO "BOTH" are well suited for defense. :)

As for the .38 Spl. debate I have pretty much come to the conclusion both are pretty close in ballistics (vs. .9X19mm only) especially in the .38 Spl. +P loads. (A "Hot" .45 ACP would be closer measured to a std. .357 Mag. load IMO.)

Skribs
January 9, 2013, 12:13 PM
Dodobird hit the nail on the head: we did not have these internet debates when .38 specials were standard issue because we did not have the internet. I don't know whether or not there were in-person debates. The number of different calibers would suggest there was.

jerkface11
January 9, 2013, 12:15 PM
Why debate 9mm vs. .45 when 10mm was invented 30 years ago.

ApacheCoTodd
January 9, 2013, 12:24 PM
I guess your question shows your age. That is not an insult, just an observation. Either you're too young to remember or didn't do a lot of gun mag reading back in the day. While not as easily accessible as internet babble these days, the debates were common in books, mags, locker rooms and anywhere fellas were gathered to shoot, buy or bench shoot.

There was debate, lots of debate:

.32 H&R Mag/.38
.38/9mm
.38/.357
.38/.45
.44 Special/.38 Special
Semi auto/revolver

Lots more I'm sure as well.

benEzra
January 9, 2013, 02:09 PM
There should be no debate. Just stand both cartridges next to one another. It should be obvious which is more effective.
If all defensive pistols were single-shots, perhaps that would be the only metric necessary to make a decision.

However, given that .45 trades more unexpanded frontal area for much less reserve capacity and twice the weight per round, there are tradeoffs with either choice. Since most of us are not limited to low-capacity magazines, it is a reasonable choice to prefer 18 rounds of 9mm over 12ish rounds of .45, all else being equal.

Bikewer
January 9, 2013, 02:17 PM
There were people concerned about the .38 special as a police round for many years. The development of the .357 Magnum back in the 30s was a direct result of these concerns.
Elmer Kieth details this in his old book, Sixguns... The availability of the large-frame .38s enabled experimenters to develop high-powered .38 Special loads which were initially marketed but then withdrawn under the fear they would be loaded into older weapons... Thus the slightly-longer .357.
The old "police standard" load, a 158-grain swaged round-nosed lead bullet over a modest powder charge, was woefully inadequate.
No expansion, little shock... Numerous anecdotes of individuals absorbing numbers of these projectiles and continuing to fight.
Just before I started my own career around 1966, the local St. Louis police were involved in an incident where two officers were fighting with an "OBS" (insane) person and ended up shooting him some 14 times... Yes, one officer actually reloaded.
The fellow still had to be fought onto the stretcher and recovered from his wounds.....

9mmepiphany
January 9, 2013, 03:06 PM
But why didn't we hear about this as much when most police forces were carrying 38 special revolvers? 38's were used for decades. It's the same basic diameter as a 9mm. Is it a heavier or slower bullet thing? If balistics is done right, shouldn't ALL of the 9mm's energy be transfered to the target? In that case, wouldn't the 9mm be a much better round for protection than the old 38 cartridge?
Either you aren't old enough to remember or your interest wasn't as focused

The some of the big debates before the 9mm vs..45ACP were:
1. .38spl SWC vs. HP
2. .38spl vs. .380 in small carry guns
3. .357mag vs. .44spl in duty guns
4. .32ACP vs. .380ACP in small autos

Another thing I've wondered, couldn't someone create a mouse fart load for 9mm with a heavy bullet and low powder charge that would accomplish a similar idea to 45?
They did. It was the 147gr JHP Subsonic load that was so popular after the 1986 FBI Miami shootout

777funk
January 9, 2013, 06:23 PM
Lol, yeah I'm too young. I wouldn't say I'm young, my kids think I'm old, lol. But I'm still under 40 so I guess I'm still a little wet behind the ears.

I grew up only shooting rifles and shotguns so pistol shooting has only been in the last several years. Lots of fun. I've got my kids shooting a .177 revolver. I think I enjoy it as much as they do.

Skribs
January 9, 2013, 06:41 PM
777funk, I think you're on the young side of this forum.

Vern Humphrey
January 9, 2013, 07:20 PM
When Smith and Wesson developed the .38 Special (by stretching the .38 Long Colt), they did their homework. Most police in the east carried a miscellany of small caliber guns. Then, even more than now, most cops never fired their guns in anger -- and if you're not going to shoot your gun in an actual shootout, what kind of gun do you choose? Why, the smallest, lightest one you can get away with, of course.

But sometimes a cop did have to use a gun for real -- and the dinkey little revolvers they favored didn't do the job. Smith and Wesson offered a reasonable solution -- a cartridge more powerful than the Army's service pistol in a light-weight revolver.

If you look at the competition -- the .41 Colt, the .44 S&W, the .45 Colt, and so on, all those came in much bigger revolvers.

Rexster
January 9, 2013, 08:19 PM
Actually, the 9mm-versus-.45 debate is old and stale by now, as the .40-versus-.45 debate took over some time ago, itself now quite stale.

And, I can tell you are a young'un! The .38-versus-.45 debate raged long and hard, not all that long ago, and I am not quite yet a senior citizen.

Realistically, I am happy carrying anything in the .38 Special +P and 9mm range up to and including .45 ACP, assuming good premium modern JHP, because I know the major manufacturers have been making this ammo to meet FBI wound ballisticss standards since the last century. To get anti-personnel performance that is, perhaps, higher than this, I will carry a heavy .357 revolver, and load it with full-pressure 125-grain JHP ammo. That is what I used in my one defensive shooting incident to date, with devastating effect, and there is something about living through such an experience, well, let's just leave it at that.

Vern Humphrey
January 9, 2013, 08:24 PM
And, I can tell you are a young'un! The .38-versus-.45 debate raged long and hard, not all that long ago, and I am not quite yet a senior citizen.
Why thank you, young feller!

The debate I remember is between the airdales and the ground pounders in Viet Nam. I saw many a Smith & Wesson decay into crud in a pilot's holster. And I was always willing to point out that if you want it for survival, the .45 ACP will take a bigger shot charge and launch a bigger flare.

Rexster
January 9, 2013, 08:59 PM
Why thank you, young feller!

The debate I remember is between the airdales and the ground pounders in Viet Nam. I saw many a Smith & Wesson decay into crud in a pilot's holster. And I was always willing to point out that if you want it for survival, the .45 ACP will take a bigger shot charge and launch a bigger flare.
Oops, I somehow managed to quote the wrong post! I meant to quote the OP! My sincere apologies! I meant the OP is a young'un. I just totally removed the quoted part from my above post.

Mr. Humphrey, I respect you immensely, and would never use "young'un" in your case.

Cosmoline
January 9, 2013, 09:11 PM
But why didn't we hear about this as much when most police forces were carrying 38 special revolvers?

The .45 ACP was for most of its life primarily a military round that had some cross over use outside the military. But the 1911 platform was only very rarely used by police forces. These remained wedded to the revolver until the wondernines.

So you didn't get a great debate because the two cartridge were linked to platforms that simply didn't compete with each other. And when there was discussion about amping up duty revolvers, the .357 Mag, .44 Special or .41 Magnum were suggestions rather than going over to any semiauto round.

Rexster
January 9, 2013, 11:25 PM
FWIW, I started working, in 1983, for a PD that had standardized on 4" .357 revolvers for cadets and rookies, and allowed .38/9mm up to and including .45 revolvers and autos for senior officers. The great local debate was between .357 Magnum and .45 ACP, but a quite large number of officers stayed above that debate and carried .44 Magnum revolvers! .45 ACP was king, in 1911, SIG, HK, and a few other autos.

I tried .44 Mag for about a year, then went the opposite direction for several months to 9mm, then settled on .41 Magnum for most of the rest of the 1980s. I carried .45 ACP on duty from 1991-1993 and 1997-2002. After deciding .357 really did deserve its reputation for effectiveness, I carried it on the clock from 1993-1997, and on my own time and as on-duty back-up to this day.

Since 2002, I have carried the now-standard duty cartridge, .40 S&W at work. Off the clock, and for back-up at work, I mostly carry .45 ACP and .357 Mag.

Oh, and don't think this weapon/ammo policy was some small PD; this is one of the largest non-federal PDs in the USA! Some high-seniority officers are still carrying "grandfathered" duty handguns that reflect the old days. Part of me regrets letting my 1911 pistols and .357 sixguns lapse from duty handgun status, though I can still carry them as "back-ups" and on my own time.

Anyway, the reason I mention this variety of cartridge choices, is because, being a large agency, with several thousand officers, we shoot a number of bad guys, over time. The result? All common duty catridges perform well enough when we hit the important bits, and all can fail when we miss the important bits.

777funk
January 10, 2013, 10:44 AM
That is what I used in my one defensive shooting incident to date, with devastating effect, and there is something about living through such an experience, well, let's just leave it at that.




FWIW, I started working, in 1983, for a PD that had standardized on 4" .357 revolvers for cadets and rookies, and allowed .38/9mm up to and including .45 revolvers and autos for senior officers. The great local debate was between .357 Magnum and .45 ACP, but a quite large number of officers stayed above that debate and carried .44 Magnum revolvers! .45 ACP was king, in 1911, SIG, HK, and a few other autos.

I tried .44 Mag for about a year, then went the opposite direction for several months to 9mm, then settled on .41 Magnum for most of the rest of the 1980s. I carried .45 ACP on duty from 1991-1993 and 1997-2002. After deciding .357 really did deserve its reputation for effectiveness, I carried it on the clock from 1993-1997, and on my own time and as on-duty back-up to this day.

Since 2002, I have carried the now-standard duty cartridge, .40 S&W at work. Off the clock, and for back-up at work, I mostly carry .45 ACP and .357 Mag.

Oh, and don't think this weapon/ammo policy was some small PD; this is one of the largest non-federal PDs in the USA! Some high-seniority officers are still carrying "grandfathered" duty handguns that reflect the old days. Part of me regrets letting my 1911 pistols and .357 sixguns lapse from duty handgun status, though I can still carry them as "back-ups" and on my own time.

Anyway, the reason I mention this variety of cartridge choices, is because, being a large agency, with several thousand officers, we shoot a number of bad guys, over time. The result? All common duty catridges perform well enough when we hit the important bits, and all can fail when we miss the important bits.
This is something I hope to never encounter and really never expect to, but I am one who prefers to be ready. I'd rather be ready and never need it than need it and not be ready.

I was surprised to see someone here actually had to defend themselves by firing their weapon. Then I read you were an officer. That ups your chances a bit!

My grandfather was Army in WWII and he always encouraged me to never join the armed forces. He saw more than he would have liked to see and fired more rounds than he would have wanted to fire. I've always thought of him as a good man and respected him for what he did. But I areed with him, not something I would want to sign up for unless I absolutely had to. A free country is worth it's defense.

And as a civilian I am not afraid to use force as a last resort if the need arose and the situation called for ONLY that as a resort, but I hope the need should never arise. It's something I dread but the word 'ready' is also a good word.

303tom
January 10, 2013, 11:10 AM
And the .327 Mag. is better than all of em...............

M2 Carbine
January 10, 2013, 11:37 AM
As a 1960's LEO we carried the 38 Special. I don't recall anyone being concerned about the round.

I was a short white cop alone in a black getto. I don't ever recall, in the middle of the night, being concerned that all I had was a nightstick and a 6 shot 38 revolver.

XD 45acp
January 10, 2013, 04:24 PM
Blast from the Past!!! These are left over from my brother's police car (Petersburg, Va P.D.) circa '71 - '72. Both are 158 gr. The Winchesters was the plain jane practice round, 855 ft/sec muzzle energy 256 ft/lb. The Super Vel was the on duty carry load, 1100 fps muzzle energy 420 ft/lb. Notice modern day Winchester 158gr .38 +P is rated only at 890 ft/sec. That Super Vel was a helluva load.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ATAShooter/policeammo.jpg

jmr40
January 10, 2013, 05:15 PM
We didn't have the internet, but there was a lot of very heated debate then as now. It was just done around the campfire, watercooler, or gunshop counters.

Cops were in the transition between 38 and 357 about the time 9mm started to gain in popularity. One of the best arguments came from a cop I once talked to. He stated that between 38 and 9mm he would not walk, but run to the closest gunshop to buy a 9mm. Between 9mm and 357 would require some soul searching.

Everyone was pretty pleased with 9mm until the infamous FBI shootout in Miami. Then the debate between 9mm vs 45 vs 10mm vs 40 S&W heated up.

JohnBT
January 11, 2013, 10:11 AM
"As a 1960's LEO we carried the 38 Special. I don't recall anyone being concerned about the round."

That's what my father said, although there was some work site discussion about wadcutters/SWC in backups and such. After he returned from serving in the Pacific in WWII he was a VA state trooper into the early '50s (when I came along and he needed a job that actually paid a living wage. :) )

Of course, he also had a shotgun in the car. Being a farm boy from way back in the mountains, he always liked his shotguns.

I remember how happy he was the day he finally bought a Python.

John

ZVP
January 11, 2013, 01:01 PM
I agree. The .357 vs .38 was the dabate. Thr 9 was accepted as a military cartrigr and therefore considered sufficent for mankilling
Today the 9 is a self defense round and more debated today.

kayak-man
January 11, 2013, 02:23 PM
I think that this debate has pretty much always gone on... Wouldn't surprise me to find cave paintings depicting two troglodytes arguing about if they would get better results hitting something in the head repeatedly with a fist sized stone, or by using a watermelon sized chunk of rock...

... and after they decided the size of the rock was users preference, they probably started arguing about the design of the rock: triangular vs round.

jp0319
January 11, 2013, 03:22 PM
Another thing I've wondered, couldn't someone create a mouse fart load for 9mm with a heavy bullet and low powder charge that would accomplish a similar idea to 45?

no, the heaviest bullet commonly available in 9mm is 147 gr and if your lucky maybe it expands as big or a little bigger than the 45 starts. But even if it does its still down almost 100 gr to the 230 gr 45. I have seen much 9 vs 45 lately too and I think a lot of it comes from the gun ban debate. Many people are feeling that if limited to 10 rounds 45 is better. I am one of those people. I own 380, 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 pistols but I usually carry a 40 or 45 if I can I just believe that a bigger heavier bullet is better consistently that the lighter faster one. Sure a hot +p or +p+ 9mm round exhibits violent expansion and good results in gel but once you add variables like clothing, and obstructions like dry wall etc the enhanced capabilities of the hot 9mm is questionable. Even if the 45 doesn't expand it will still be a 45 cal bullet.

Everyone believes what they believe and can usually find some e essence to support their belief no matter what it is so you hav to make your own decision.

Tcruse
January 11, 2013, 05:24 PM
The debate will always rage on unless the discussion agrees on what the metric of comparision is going to be. Everyone has a different meaning for stopping power and everyone seems to have a different metric as to when is too much power.
If you look at the test page for Winchester Ranger T series, 9, .357, .40SW, .45ACP all have about the same expansion and pentration on a wide set of test material. Today, the best SD ammo is taylored to match the FBI tests. So, the dissusion is mute if you accept the FBI tests and use the best SD ammo of each caliber.
For the non-LEO group, the importance of not having unintended results after leaving your target is problably unestimated by many.

jmr40
January 11, 2013, 05:33 PM
The fact that the debate between 45 and 9mm has been raging for over 100 years with no clear winner is proof enough that it doesn't really matter. They both work equally well. I've never seen any study, test or survey that did not confirm that.

lowercase
January 11, 2013, 06:23 PM
The .38 special is old enough that it probably encountered these debates:

.38 special vs .44 Russian

.38 special vs .38 S&W

.38 Special: black powder vs smokeless

TFIT
January 11, 2013, 09:37 PM
Go with the biggest caliber you can manage and conceal. Get proficient with it, meaning you need to be able to hit what you're shooting at without aiming. Pull it and point it, then pull the trigger...keep in mind you won't have time to "aim" when you're being threatened. Happy hunting! Now get to work.

C0untZer0
January 11, 2013, 10:37 PM
This last week some woman shot a home invader 4 or 5 times in the face with a 38 spl.

Either she must have stoked it with the worst 38 spl ammo ever or the 38 is a lot worse than I ever thought it was.

TFIT
January 11, 2013, 11:59 PM
Or perhaps she just unloaded the gun (as most do in such a situation) and got incredibly lucky...it is entirely possible. He probably dropped on the spot.

jp0319
January 12, 2013, 01:20 PM
she shot him five times and he still left and drove away driving off the road and being arrested a short distance away. He is still alive though.

http://http://amarillo.com/news/latest-news/2013-01-09/georgia-woman-shoots-intruder-5-times (http://amarillo.com/news/latest-news/2013-01-09/georgia-woman-shoots-intruder-5-times)

Vern Humphrey
January 12, 2013, 05:18 PM
Pull it and point it, then pull the trigger...keep in mind you won't have time to "aim" when you're being threatened.
Well, real life gunfighters disagree. Wyatt Earp said, "Get your gun out as quick as you can and take your own sweet time about aiming.

In Charles Askins' book, Unrepentant Sinner, he relates 26 fatal shootings, and mentions using the sights in most of them. In one case, he had a Colt New Service (his favorite revolver) with a short barrel and no sight. He was surprised in an alley by a man with a shotgun, fired and hit the shotgun. The man turned out to be a Federal Agent, but Askins got rid of the gun and never again carried a gun without sights.

Massad Ayoob says if you interview survivors of gunfights, there is a difference between winners and losers -- the winners are the ones who used the sights.

SFsc616171
January 12, 2013, 10:21 PM
There was two .38 Special cartridge loadings, that seems to have slipped folks memories.

There -are- still in production, a 158 grain Plus p lead SemiWadcutter Hollow Point, that was brought out by the FBI, years ago; and, a 110 grain Plus p Jacketed Hollow Point, that was brought by the Treasury Dept, also, a few years back.

kayak-man
January 13, 2013, 01:29 AM
There was two .38 Special cartridge loadings, that seems to have slipped folks memories.

Wasn't there also a third load used by the Air Force? I thought I remembered reading about it in one of the other threads, but I can't remember which one....

460Kodiak
January 13, 2013, 02:23 PM
Quote:
Pull it and point it, then pull the trigger...keep in mind you won't have time to "aim" when you're being threatened.

Well, real life gunfighters disagree. Wyatt Earp said, "Get your gun out as quick as you can and take your own sweet time about aiming.

In Charles Askins' book, Unrepentant Sinner, he relates 26 fatal shootings, and mentions using the sights in most of them. In one case, he had a Colt New Service (his favorite revolver) with a short barrel and no sight. He was surprised in an alley by a man with a shotgun, fired and hit the shotgun. The man turned out to be a Federal Agent, but Askins got rid of the gun and never again carried a gun without sights.

Massad Ayoob says if you interview survivors of gunfights, there is a difference between winners and losers -- the winners are the ones who used the sights.

Yeah, I can't say that I agree with this point shooting all the time. Close, close range, ok. But sights are put on a gun to be used. If you don't think you will use them when you need them, or won't have time, then I would respectfully suggest more practice. I'd rather aim, take a shot or two, and hit my target in a good spot that will stop the threat, rather than point shoot and hope you hit the threat in a vital spot and no one else.

Ramone
January 13, 2013, 07:02 PM
I'll tell you where the debate was.

In the front seat of my Dad's Wagon, every time our neighbor came to the range with us.

also, in the back yard while cleaning after a range trip.

Dad believed in the 1911 in .45ACP Ball, our neighbor believed in the S&W Revolver in .38 Special with Wadcutters.

Mr. N. passed in 1979 (RIP), otherwise I'd still be hearing it.

JustGiveMeABullet
January 13, 2013, 10:32 PM
why do we have so many cartridge debates??? Realize I am "new" and all... but, this is like the 5th one I've read from cover to cover...

Just wondering, I do not mean to offend.

xXxplosive
January 13, 2013, 10:49 PM
Anyone recall the 38 Special Rem. 200gr. lead bullet.......?

9mmepiphany
January 14, 2013, 01:39 AM
Anyone recall the 38 Special Rem. 200gr. lead bullet.......?
The only 200gr bullet I recall in a .38 cartridge is that of the .38 S&W...did they load it in the .38 Spl too?

9mmepiphany
January 14, 2013, 01:43 AM
why do we have so many cartridge debates??? Realize I am "new" and all... but, this is like the 5th one I've read from cover to cover...

Just wondering, I do not mean to offend.
First, welcome to the Forum

Folks like to engage in cartridge debates because they are searching for that magic bullet which will give them the one shot stop with no recoil...it doesn't exist.

All premium defensive offerings by the major manufactures are abut the same in performance as that are designed to meet the same Federal standard

armsmaster270
January 14, 2013, 04:20 AM
When I was a Cop we were issued S&W Model 15's and the treasury load. A110grain +P+ 38 Special load. They Worked.
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/armsmaster270/Police%20Dept/dec08-feb09129.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/armsmaster270/Police%20Dept/FederalP.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/armsmaster270/Police%20Dept/Supplement-1.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/armsmaster270/Police%20Dept/Negreteslug003.jpg

Ky Larry
January 14, 2013, 08:09 AM
Just enjoy the Sound and Fury.It's always good for a laugh, especially the "Absolute" statments. Gun X in caliber Y with bullet Z is the greatest combat-self defense-target-whatever combo in the world.:rolleyes:

Pete D.
January 14, 2013, 08:12 AM
I remember reading through a variety of debates ...this cartridge vs. the .45ACP.....in Guns and Ammo and numerous other mags when I was a teen back in the 1960s.
Not too much has changed fifty years later.
Pete

Mr Woody
January 14, 2013, 09:28 AM
My gun experience began around 1971 with a girlfriend who's father was a gun collector and X military shooting team member. He was a fan of the .45 auto and Hatcher's Notebook. About that time I became involved in law enforcement. The Discussion was about .38spc V .357 and Hollow points. 9 mm was considered about equal to the 38 but there were very few guns for it that were considered reliable or appropriate for the police. The .45 auto was well liked but cocked and locked was not popular with administrators or the local politicians. Those were the only calibers being debated back then. Although one of the guys did carry a .44 magnum and shot it fairly well he was the only one to break out of the .38 - 357 - .45 mold

In those days the Hollow Point was ineffective at handgun velocities and could not be relied upon to expand. My department issued some very old .38spc. They were junk Colt and S&Ws but you were expected by buy and support you own gun. I used a .357 with hollow points and figured if they expanded it was just a bonus. Carried it for several years until I went to the 1911 which I carried about 8 years until the department started issuing guns, then it was back to the .357.

When the military went 9 mm the quality of handguns available for that caliber went up dramatically. which paved the way in many ways for the acceptance of the 1911 as a police use firearm. The new semi-autos (read that as Glock and S&W) were accepted as reliable and moved into police circles but the 9mm was struggling. The FBI came up with the 10MM which was a failure for police work (Ya, I Know a lot of you like 10mm and your welcome to that) which led to the .40 which has taken the industry by storm with many brands in use.

Seems like anything from a +p 38 on up will work just fine, the key, as always is hitting your target.

JohnBT
January 14, 2013, 10:28 AM
"why do we have so many cartridge debates??? Realize I am "new" and all"

I think of it as our version of fantasy football. :)

bubba in ca
January 14, 2013, 05:22 PM
There is no debate. The .45 is an outdated military round that makes a dandy HD round because of its muzzle energy. 9mm is virtually the world standard in police and military handguns. It is now the best option for most people and agencies because it is the most common and the ammo the cheapest.

I don`t own guns in either of these calibers so I don`t really have an iron in this fire. I sold off my 9s and 45s along time ago.

Both, along with .38 are decent if you are restricted to a handgun, .357 is a little better. Once you are in this neighborhood your ability to hit the target rapidly dwarfs the little differences in caliber.

PS: I stopped reading gun magazines decades ago because they are mostly puff.

If you enjoyed reading about "Why the 9mm vs .45 debate? Where was this debate when 38sp was used?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!