Cap Fit


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rodwha
January 9, 2013, 12:00 PM
When I first received my Old Army my father also gave me a few old tins of Remington #11's. They would slide off of a few of the nipples so I bought some CCI #11 magnums.

These often require a second strike to fire.

I bought nipples from ToTW that were designed to be used with CCI #11's, but behave exactly the same as the stock nipples.

I recently went by BassPro to pick up #10's. They only had the Remingtons. I tried them once I got home and found that they seem to fit perfectly. I haven't been to the range to see, but they seem good to go.

Wish they would have had the CCI's in stock as they are much cheaper!

I recently viewed a chart of cap sizes (diameter):
CCI #10 0.160"
CCI #11 0.166"
Rem #10 0.167"
Rem #11 0.166"

How is it that the Rem #10's are a hair wider, yet fit snuggly when the #11's slide off of a few nipples?

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rodwha
January 9, 2013, 12:01 PM
Are there any differences in their ability (#10's) to ignite powder, namely Triple 7? Or is it the same amount of compound in a different size?

Steel Horse Rider
January 9, 2013, 12:14 PM
Are the #11's bottomed out on the nipple or are they only going partially on? If they are not bottomed it would explain the misfires and the looseness.

rodwha
January 9, 2013, 12:18 PM
They can't be bottoming out. But they are fitted on quite tight. I've even used a dowel to give 'em an extra push.

They do seem to fire more often now, and I initially chucked the nipples in a drill and slowly ground them on emory cloth, but I don't think it really did much of anything.

unknwn
January 9, 2013, 05:58 PM
It's really hard to say which caps/nipples "fix?" I dislike the most:
"pinching" caps to keep them from falling off, pushing caps on with a dowel because they won't bottom out when installed otherwise, -or- possibly the worst -resort- of all - filing or sanding/polishing nipples so that the caps will fit.
I think messing with the nipples cones has the least chance of good results since on most revolvers you have six of them to do and getting them to all fit the same just doesn't bode well .
Beyond that, I just can't bring myself to play the "pinch" game and it's possibility of promoting chainfires.
If the manufacturers would only just get it right and produce parts that actually work.

rodwha
January 9, 2013, 06:16 PM
Yea, I don't like it either.
And I want my revolver(s) and rifle(s) to all use the same stuff so as not to need to stock up on or carry afield several different things.

Fingers McGee
January 9, 2013, 08:55 PM
How is it that the Rem #10's are a hair wider, yet fit snuggly when the #11's slide off of a few nipples?

Because the nipples are tapered, not straight.

There are a couple threads on caps & nipples on CasCity and 1851remington forums. Eiher one will give you information overload.

I have slix Shot nipples on a few of my C&Bs now. #10 and #11 Remingtons and #11 CCIs work perfectly on them.

351 WINCHESTER
January 9, 2013, 10:52 PM
I have found the newer Remington no. 10's to be perfect for my Ruger. They really did improve their older caps about 5 years ago.

Pancho
January 9, 2013, 11:57 PM
Rodwa, it's unclear did you try using the CCI#11 magnum caps and the regular CCI #11? With the same result?
As I understand it the TOW nipples were designed for the standard CCI #11. If I were you before I did anything else I'd call TOW they are very helpful.

rodwha
January 10, 2013, 09:15 AM
I did not try standard CCI #11's. I haven't seen them anywhere.
I did call ToTW. They said it would be easier for me to chuck them in a drill and slowly grind them down with sand paper, which I tried.
The Rem #10's seem to fit perfectly.
It'll be a while before I get to the range...I have some .50 cal RB's coming soon, and will go then.

arcticap
January 10, 2013, 11:40 AM
I recently viewed a chart of cap sizes (diameter):
CCI #10 0.160"
CCI #11 0.166"
Rem #10 0.167"
Rem #11 0.166"

How is it that the Rem #10's are a hair wider, yet fit snuggly when the #11's slide off of a few nipples?

makos goods didn't indicate that Remington #10's are wider than CCI #11's, and for all practical intents and purposes neither did mykeal. All we really know for sure is that the Remington #10's are longer, and not necessarily wider.
And that the longer Remington #10 caps fit lower on to the taper of the nipple.
The information is below:

Originally Posted by makos goods
These are the measure dimensions for those caps:

CAP I.D. Height
Rem 10 0.166” 0.175”
Rem 11 0.166” 0.154”
CCI 10 0.161” 0.163”
CCI 11 0.166” 0.165”
RWS 1075 0.165” 0.160”

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=578412&highlight=sizes

And regarding mykeal's chart, he indicated that accurate measurements were so difficult to obtain that there's a possible error factor of + or - .002 t0 .004.

I made these measurements using a caliper about 3 years ago.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=177480&stc=1&d=1357833228

Each number is the arithmetic average of at least 20 samples of each brand and size of cap; most of the individual measurements were repeated 3 or 4 times before recording the result. The opening diameter measurement was quite difficult as you can imagine, so I believe the error in those numbers is on the order of 0.002" and could be as much as 0.004".

I ask because a number of people have provided similar measurements on smaller sample sizes with differing results. I believe cap dimensions vary considerably from batch to batch.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=578412&highlight=sizes

Smokin'Joe
January 10, 2013, 12:28 PM
Oversize caps are easily and symmetrically re-sized using a small socket from a '' ratchet set. Either a 5/32 or 4mm size will work.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc510/SmmokingJoe/IMG_02135.jpg

Simply place cap on hard flat surface open side up and apply downward force with the socket. A gentle tap may be required. If the re-sized cap resists being removed from the socket gently grab it with pliers and rock it back and forth.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc510/SmmokingJoe/IMG_02165.jpg

I modified my socket slightly with a pointed stone on a Dremel tool to provide a forcing cone of sorts.

rodwha
January 10, 2013, 02:23 PM
That last chart is the one I got the size info from.
Nice tip Joe. A pain, but can make something work if need be.

SleazyRider
January 10, 2013, 02:54 PM
If you can get your hands on a metal lathe---preferably one wth collets but even a small 3-jaw will work---set your compound rest at 5 degrees, lock the carraige in place and take a light cut. Have a tin of #10 caps at the ready and keep experimenting to get the perfect fit as you turn down the nipple. Once you get it right, so long as you don't move the crossfeed or carraige but only the compound screw, the other 5 nipples can be turned in minutes to precisely the same size without further experimentation or measurement. For me, this made all the diffference in correctly seating the cap and absolutely reliable ignition.

And since we're talking about cap fit, yes, the Remingtons are indeed taller; in fact, just this morning I had to modify my inline capper to accomodate the taller #10 Remington caps. I took a hardened button-head screw and cut off the threads, then spun it in a Dremel. With a second Dremel, while it spun, I "sculpted" the head to be T-shaped, then with the first Dremel stationery, cut a few slots with an abrasive disc to form a crude cutter. Using this T-cutter in the Dremel, I went to town on the inside rails of my inline capper, removing several thousandths of brass. I followed up with some judicious sanding with 220-grit to further remove burrs and polish the rails. It now handles #10s perfectly!

It gives me pause to think about how soldiers and pistoleros in the mid-19th century handled these problems, likely around the campfire in the evenings. I'm thinkin' their caps fit much looser, and perhaps they held them on with a dab of wax. I also wonder about the percentage of misfires and jammed mechanisms due to errant caps, too.

kbbailey
January 10, 2013, 03:44 PM
Simply place cap on hard flat surface open side up and apply downward force with the socket. A gentle tap may be required. If the re-sized cap resists being removed from the socket gently grab it with pliers and rock it back and forth.


Forgive my ignorance and inexperience, but my instincts tell me that would be a good way to have my whiskers,eyebrows,hat,fingers, and shirt blackened and smoking, and my pants around my ankles 'ala Yosemite Sam.

mykeal
January 10, 2013, 03:57 PM
And after you've gone to all the time and effort to remake the nipple cones to fit that one batch of caps,.....
a number of people have provided similar measurements on smaller sample sizes with differing results. I believe cap dimensions vary considerably from batch to batch.
These things cost 4 cents piece, give or take. People who like to stay in business don't go to a lot of time and expense building products that cost 4 cents each to 0.0005" tolerances.

Patocazador
January 10, 2013, 05:04 PM
I found that Remington #11 and #10 will fit my 3 sets of nipples for my ROA but none of the others will fully seat. Winchester and CCI caps are the same - just different packaging. CCI Magnum caps will produce a better flame than normal caps IF they fit your nipples.

Other than the Remingtons, the rest seem to have less taper and the base is narrower thus causing them to bind before fully seating on the ROA nipples.

Smokin'Joe
January 10, 2013, 08:51 PM
Fear not, kbbailey, all of my hair follicles remain intact. Actually the technique I describe does not even disturb the ignition compound inside the percussion cap. Only the sides of the cap are affected.

rodwha
January 10, 2013, 09:16 PM
I find it interesting, especially since I highly doubt I'll be able to find nipples for all of the guns I eventually get to all use the same size/brand cap.

arcticap
January 11, 2013, 11:55 PM
It always seems to be revolvers that need a different brand or size of caps, and that's mostly because they're not single shots and have more moving parts.
My rifle nipples have rarely ever had a problem with any current brand of #11 caps fitting them.
It doesn't bother me if the #11's don't fit a revolver's nipples perfectly because it's an option to be able to squeeze them for a tigher fit, just like with some rifles. Most all brands of #11 caps universally fit as far as being large enough to fit almost every current nipple made.
And then there's the revolvers that may need #10's for easier capping, best performance & the tightest fit, and also based on their owner's demands.

tpelle
January 13, 2013, 09:16 AM
The main thing here is that a single shot percussion rifle is by definition incapable of experiencing a chain fire. However oversize or otherwise loose fitting caps on a revolver certainly may.

Loose fitting caps, if left loose, may simply fall off during recoil, leaving an uncapped nipple flash hole communicating directly to the powder in a yet unfired chamber, which may be fired by the back flash of the chamber being fired. If you try to make poorly fitting caps work by pinching them - perfectly fine on a single shot weapon - then you have two tiny channels on each side of the adjacent unfired cap up which the backflash from the fired chamber can travel, setting off out of battery chambers. In either case a chain fire situation is produced.

I am convinced that chain fires occur not from the chamber mouth (presuming a ball that is swaged to fit the chamber during the loading process) but instead by missing caps or prematurely ignited caps. I try to find caps that fit properly instead.

I used to use over ball grease, but abandoned the process as too messy, and also because after the first shot the grease was all melted away. I've been using cream of wheat as a filler, but may try greased felt wads.

MCgunner
January 13, 2013, 09:22 AM
Oversize caps are easily and symmetrically re-sized using a small socket from a '' ratchet set. Either a 5/32” or 4mm size will work.

Great idea! Beats pinching 'em. I rarely find number 10s. I live in the sticks, now, so it'll be even harder to find them.

Pancho
January 14, 2013, 01:09 AM
If the truth be told, chainfires are due to operator error (it ain't lightening on a sunny day).
Undersized rounds. No ring of lead. If you see it cap it with grease.
Irregular rounds. Partial ring of lead. If you see it cap it with grease.
Ill fitting caps resulting in fall offs.
Not looking at your pistol between shots.
If there is one thing my fussy 62's have taught me is to give a quick inspection while cocking the pistol after every shot. Sorry Josey but emptying your gun in a few seconds is pure Hollywood.

boommer
January 14, 2013, 02:08 AM
hi all first post as a rule 10's are cap and ball and 11's rifle chain fires come for ill fitted balls as well as caps because the cap falls off next to chamber being fired and spark jumps. the one folk lore is that slobing lube on the on the chambers is stop chain fires it is not it is more to lube the balls and spray the lube to the front of the cylinder and down cylinder pin to turn the fouling soft acts like a lube. If you have to alter caps just get new nipples. keep your balls shaving and caps tight and you wont have any problems.

mykeal
January 15, 2013, 01:41 PM
spark jumps
Sparks aren't the problem; hot gas is the problem.

Noz
January 15, 2013, 06:32 PM
TRESO or Slix nipples and #10 Remingtons and the problems are solved.
Life's too short to mess with all the other crap.

gbeauvin
January 23, 2013, 11:26 AM
If only I could find remington 10's locally... I got the Winchester 11 magnums's (all they had at Gander Mountain) and they practically fall off the nipples of my new Pietta "1858" if I don't pinch them.

-GB

Fingers McGee
January 23, 2013, 08:57 PM
I've tried four different caps on the slix shot nipples (CCI 11, REM 10 and 11, and RWS 1075). I use a revolver capper and straight line capper in testind. All worked just fine, none fell off before firing, no failures to fire using just capper pressure to place them, and the only ones that might have caused a cap jam - due to the fact that they pretty well disintegrated - were the RWS 1075s

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