9mm 147gr bullets over Red Dot


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Hugo go go
January 11, 2013, 02:31 AM
I found some information on various websites regarding this combination. Charge weights I've seen range drastically from 2.0-3.7gr +. I loaded some up starting at 2.6 and have worked my way up to 3.4. I stopped at 3.4 because I'm getting leading and any greater of a charge would be a compressed load. I'm using MBC's 147gr FP. They're supposedly BHN 15, and I measured them at .357 (although they're advertised as .356). I don't really care if they're +.001 as long as I get this leading issue taken care of. Initially my OAL was 1.125 and I tested 2.8 and 3.2gr. I got very noticeable leading after just 13 rounds of each. I cleaned my barrel very well in between. Next day, I loaded up some with 2.6gr at 1.125, 2.8 at 1.150, and 3.2 at 1.150. I shot those yesterday. Increasing the OAL seems to have reduced leading, but the load of 2.6 at 1.125 again left noticeable leading with just 13 rounds. Interestingly, the 2.6 load seemed to group nearly as well as the 3.2 load which has given the best groups so far. Today I loaded some up at 1.169. They feed no problem but barely fit in the mag. Charges are 2.6 and 3.2. I'll report back with results.

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918v
January 11, 2013, 11:19 AM
The reason you are getting leading is because your bullet is UNDERsized.

.357" may be .002" over SAAMI spec for the 9 but 9s are seldom SAAMI spec. Many 9s have .357" groove diameters and .359" freebores. You need to match the bullet to the freebore, meaning you should chamber cast your barrel or slug your freebore.

918v
January 11, 2013, 11:23 AM
Also, in order to obturate a 15BHN bullet you'll need to run max pressures.

Kp321
January 14, 2013, 02:28 PM
Sorry to be late on this post. I had problems using fast powders with 147 gr lead bullets, had key hole problems. Had no problems with Blue Dot, in fact had very good accuracy. I'll look up the load later and share it with you.

Hugo go go
January 14, 2013, 03:07 PM
Increasing the OAL drastically reduced the amount of leading. 2.6gr had almost no leading, but failed to cycle the gun reliably. 3.2 had some leading, still more than I'm comfortable with, but it wasn't as bad as before. I've loaded 50 up at 2.8 and will report back. I don't think I want to push these much harder. Red Dot is really fast, and 147gr bullets are pretty heavy.

I should mention I'm shooting these out of a stock gen 3 G17. Please, nobody bring up the Glock and cast topic.

Kp321, at what distance did you notice keyholing? I'm shooting at 25 yards and haven't noticed anything.

ATLDave
January 14, 2013, 03:32 PM
I should mention I'm shooting these out of a stock gen 3 G17. Please, nobody bring up the Glock and cast topic.

Uh, isn't leading the very reason that Glock says not to use cast bullets?

Skulptor
January 14, 2013, 04:41 PM
I'm working up rounds using cast 147's with Titegroup and Win 231. I found a tumbling problem with both powders at the higher charges I worked up to.
3.2gr. with TG and 3.5gr. with 231. That is as far as I took them. .2gr down from those weights and they were really accurate.

1KPerDay
January 14, 2013, 05:17 PM
I should mention I'm shooting these out of a stock gen 3 G17. Please, nobody bring up the Glock and cast topic.
LOL okay...

Hugo go go
January 14, 2013, 06:06 PM
Uh, isn't leading the very reason that Glock says not to use cast bullets

Uh, Glock doesn't recommend hand loaded ammunition period, like every other manufacturer.

I specifically stated not to bring this topic up. There's already hundreds of posts and threads regarding it. I have shot thousands of rounds of lead through my Glocks without an issue. I'm willing to accept the risks.

ATLDave
January 14, 2013, 06:52 PM
Hugo, I'm not trying to be your nanny; I'm sure you can evaluate risks on your own. I was just pointing out that there is a causal connection between polygonal barrels and leading. You're using a polygonal barrel. You're getting leading. That's gonna happen.

brominated
January 15, 2013, 05:33 AM
The advice on slugging the chamber and bore is good advice when shooting cast lead.

Another thing to consider.. I've gone round and round in the past trying to eliminate barrel leading while working up 9mm para loads using different weight and types of cast lead bulets, and I found it way too frustrating, and wasteful of time and resources. Of course, one could find it challenging as well, but I've since moved on.
So I now give any and all cast bullets shot in that caliber a tumble lube, whether if I cast it myself or buy from a vendor. I use a 45-45-10 (floor wax, alox, mineral spirit) recipe that is popular and easily found on line, and I load and shoot without a moments thought to barrel leading. Makes it much more fun to work up loads without having to give any consideration to leading, I tell you. Matter of fact, keeps my bore shiny, slick.

Also, I find slower powders work better with heavier bullets in 9mm para, and that particular Missouri Bullet 147 grainer you mentioned works very well for me with a shorter o.a.l. of 1.110-1.115 and AA#7.

bds
January 15, 2013, 07:35 AM
I was just pointing out that there is a causal connection between polygonal barrels and leading. You're using a polygonal barrel. You're getting leading.
Well, Glock barrels are not true polygons but rather round barrels with six "hexagonal" rifling (picture below shows a conventional barrel on the left and a "true" polygonal barrel on the right, this case an "eight" sided octagonal barrel - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygonal_rifling

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/Polygonal_vs_normal_rifling.svg/250px-Polygonal_vs_normal_rifling.svg.png



http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=163255&stc=1&d=1335152658

Shooting lead loads in Glock barrels without leading can be done with some consideration. As the picture above shows, Glock rifling is very rounded with smooth start of rifling along with longer leade/free bore that allow the bullet to slide deeper into the barrel before chamber pressure starts to build which causes more high pressure gas leakage that results in greater fouling build up, gas cutting and bullet base erosion - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8560817#post8560817

The conventional square cut land/groove rifling, especially with more abrupt start of rifling with shorter leade help reduce leading.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=155268&stc=1&d=1324653483

OK, back to OP.

Hugo go go
January 22, 2013, 08:10 PM
All right, so I figured I'd post and update everyone as to where I'm at. I haven't had a lot of time to shoot or load. I found out 1.169 is too long for Glock mags. They would function fine if I only had a couple in the mags, but once I started to really stack them you could tell there was a problem. I did load up 50 of the 147's with a charge of 2.7gr Red Dot. I had a few FTF's, but I think that's only because I'm still pushing the limit with the OAL. OAL was 1.155. I found on another thread bds mentioned max for the drop free Glock mags is 1.150. I'll load up some more at 1.145 (give +.005) and report back. I might also try pushing them a bit harder to ensure they obturate like 918v mentioned, but I will say the 2.7 load was pretty darn accurate.

Alliant's 1995 reloading manual states 3.4gr Red Dot under a 147gr XTP bullet should be ~895fps with 32,400psi. I shot a couple with 3.4 and OAL 1.125 with no pressure signs. I saw on another forum someone loaded 158gr cast bullets at 3.6gr for a velocity of 970fps, although he listed this as max and to start at 3.2.

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