Will this load work?


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Skulptor
January 11, 2013, 05:07 PM
OK, I have the Lyman's manual, went to Handloads.com and have been reading a lot on here and the net., in general. I've come up with what I think will work but I've had to be a little creative. And since I am a bit new to this, I thought I'd play cautious and fire it past you guys first. (no pun intended)

It's 9mm, 147gr. (150 exactly) Truncated Cone, cast lead bullet. (Magma dies)
My chamber "plunk tests" about 1.11. (The TC lead, waxed bullets are kinda tough to get an exact measurement.)
I'm using CCI 500 primers.
Range brass.
I want to try Win.231 and Titegroup.

So here is where I am starting:
147gr. TC cast bullet
1.058" OAL (max. as per Lymans)
2.5 TG (as per Lymans)
or
3.2 Win.231 (as per Handloads.com)

I don't have any other books to go from right now so that is why I'd like to enlist you guys. What do you think?
I may try stepping down even lower on charge if I can. I found my gun likes 147 FMJ's and a light charge. Hopefully it will like the cast lead. It will be a bit cheaper for shooting IDPA.
Thanx in advance!!

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rcmodel
January 11, 2013, 07:49 PM
Do Not go below suggested starting loads at this stage of your reloading experiance.

You probably can't use Lyman OAL with lyman bullet #356637 mold with bullets from Magma molds.
They are not exactly the same shape bullets.

Seat the bullet to about a thumbnail width of the edge of the front driving band and thats the correct OAL with your Magma bullets.

I have found no pubilished W-231 data for 147 grain lead bullets in my reloading manuals.
Even Hodgdon shows none with W231/HP38 with that bullet weight with jacketed bullets.

But 3.5 is a starting load with 147 jacketed bullets in the Lyman manual, and that will work.

rc

Skulptor
January 11, 2013, 08:17 PM
This is where I found the 231 info:

http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=9%20mm&Weight=147&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=Winchester

This is what is published:


9 mm, 147 gr
Bullet Powder Weight Powder Velocity OAL Primer Source
Lead 3.5 gr Win 231 905 fps Winchester
Suggested starting load: 3.2 gr

Pressure: 32,100 PSI


Lead 4.1 gr WSF 965 fps Winchester
Suggested starting load: 3.7 gr

Pressure: 32,800 PSI


FMJ 4.3 gr WSF 950 fps Winchester
Suggested starting load: 3.9 gr

Pressure: 32,300 PSI


JHP 4.3 gr WSF 935 fps Winchester
Suggested starting load: 3.9 gr

Pressure: 32,300 PSI

Yeah, if I do go below, I will make sure it is very gradual and check primers and cases for signs I've went too far.
I checked the "thumbnail thickness" and that is very close to the 1.058 OAL. So I guess they are somewhat close. But, they are not real consistant. I get about .010 variations in the finished round. I use the 1.058 as the middle of that deviation. Should I ,instead, make that the lowest measurement? They seem to have quite a bit of wax on them. I don't know if that any effect on them or not.
Thank you for checking and helping me out!

rcmodel
January 11, 2013, 08:30 PM
You or I can submit data on Handloads.com.

Do you have pressure testing equipment and a ballistics lab?
I don't?

I trust data I can find published in a reloading manual, or on a powder manufactures website.

Anything else on the internet is suspect.
Especially when they start quoting pressures.

It may very well be the data on Handloads is a reprint from some time past, when the original W-231 was pressure tested by Winchester.

But that was a different powder then the "new" W-231 now sold by Hodgdon.

Regardless of that, it sound's safe enough, so if you want to use it?
Use it and see.

rc

Skulptor
January 11, 2013, 08:40 PM
Excellent. Thank you.
But as for testing equiptment... nope. ;) I do have access to a chrono that I was going to see where I was at. I just didn't want any larger explosions than necessary. :D
Oh, and one more question if you are still handy:
It seems the lead 147's expand/enlarge the case to the point they don't fit the case gauge. Probably 8 or 9 out of 10!!
I actually took a fresh tumbled range case with old primer and put it in the case gauge and it fit fine. Then after running it thru my Dillon 550 using the lead 147's it would not fit. They make it down, typically, to about the groove. I've never had any issues with FMJ's - 115 or 147 - doing this. Just these lead cast bullets. Any ideas???
Thank you again!!!!!!!!

rcmodel
January 11, 2013, 08:58 PM
Well, for starters.

Jacketed bullets are .355".
Lead bullets are usually sized .356", or larger.

Measure some of yours.


More then likely, the lead bullet diameter is expanding the case to the point they won't fit in the case gage.
But that is unimportant anyway.


What is important is, if they will fit in your guns chamber?

Use your barrel, out of your gun, for your case gage.

If they drop in with a plunk, and drop out freely, you are good to go.

rc

Fire_Moose
January 11, 2013, 09:06 PM
Please also note the OAL LIsted in yer manual is minimum

You can load out to whatever yer magazine will hold...1.169 i think...

useless signiture

Skulptor
January 11, 2013, 09:09 PM
Good info - as usual!!! I really appreciate it. They say on the box .356. I just thought they would still fit.
I'll check that and if they fit the barrel, time to start pullin the handle. :)
Hopefully no more issues tonite.
Thanx a million!!!!

bds
January 11, 2013, 10:59 PM
9mm 147gr. TC cast bullet ... Win.231

I don't have any other books to go from right now
There is no currently published load data from Hodgdon (http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp) for 147 gr 9mm lead bullet but this is from 1999 Winchester load data (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=159609&stc=1&d=1329800605) for 147 gr 9mm lead CFP (Cone Flat Point) which shows start charge of 3.3 gr and max charge of 3.5 gr.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=177528&stc=1&d=1357963686

Skulptor
January 13, 2013, 02:12 PM
I thought you guys might like to know the results of a 10 yd. test.

The 3.5gr of 231 had an OK group but the bullets tore up the cardboard IDPA target!! They all seemed to tumble but one. The 3.2gr of 231 was a real nice group about 1 1/4" o.d. with one flyer out about an inch from the group. Very nice I thought. I'd post pix but, "I'm not all that and a bag of chips" on the computer.:D

I also used 2.8 and 2.5gr. of Titegroup and about half the shots were stovepipes, misfeeds and failure to slide lock. I'm going to bump it up to 3.0 and then 3.2 to see what it does.

I am very cautious, and curious, at this point so I saved all the cases and had written on them what they were before I shot them. They seemed to be perfectly fine aafter shooting, a couple even fitting back into the case gauge. The primers were slightly flat as per what you would expect. (I'm trying to learn)

Both powders were smokey - wax on bullets is my guess - and I'm not sure if one was worse than the other.

I will try some more fine tuning and let you know - I guess some of you are interested???????????????

Now, I have a question: what measurement is considered a short chamber and what would be considered a long chamber. When I "plunk tested" my Walther it was 1.175 with an Xtreme FMJ RN. I was curious where that fell in comparison to other guns. I understand CZ's Sig's and maybe others have what is known as short chambers. My friends M&P 9mm is 1.248 with the same test. Should I be measuring some other way?

Thanx again for all the help!!!! I hope to be able to contribute as well as I learn more.

p.s. They also all chrono-ed good enough for use in IDPA. I have them wrote down and will post them if interested.

Two Old Dogs
January 13, 2013, 03:16 PM
Skulptor: You seem to be confusing overall loaded cartridge length with chamber length.
Maximum and minimum chamber dimensions for American manufacturers can be found at www.SAAMI.org. Chamber dimensions and ammunition specificaions for European manufacturers can be found at www.CIP-bobp.org (Europe's equivalent to SAAMI). Be sure to click on the British flag to see the information in English.

Skulptor
January 13, 2013, 04:22 PM
I appreciate the link!! I'm not confused by the two, just not sure how else to find out the min/max chamber length. I can only give what I have measured and the way I measured it. That is why I asked if there was some other way to measure it. I know no two different manufacturers bullets are same so it's not an accurate way to compare. But I still would like to know:
How is chamber length measured, and what is considered long and short.
(Sorry, my vocabulary is not the best!:rolleyes:)

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