40 SW; are Berry's plated 165gr same as 165gr TMJ?


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DDawg
January 11, 2013, 09:10 PM
Previously I've only loaded rifle. I'm getting close to loading my first 40SW rounds for my Glock 23.

I'm gonna start with Power Pistol powder, and Berry's plated 165gr FP bullets.( I've already purchased both)

Looking at my Lyman's 49th edition it shows Power Pistol loads for 165gr TMJ starting 6.3 grns.

It seems to me that plated and TMJ Bullets are the same.

Are Berry's plated FP the same as the TMJ at least from a reloading standpoint?

I'm mainly gonna use my loads for plinking so I'll probably stay around the minimum load of 6.3grns.

Thanks for your help
DD

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rcmodel
January 11, 2013, 09:18 PM
No they are not the same.

Berrys are thinly copper Electro-Plated bullets .

Hornady TMJ are Encapulsated Jacketed bullets.

In other words, a conventional gliding metal jacket, with a gliding metal "lid" swaged over the base to keep the lead from getting out.

Berry bullets says to use mid-level jacketed bullet data to load them.

http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq.aspx?n=204584

rc

cowtownup
January 11, 2013, 09:43 PM
Have you ever tried this bullet for the 40 s&w?

http://www.bslbullet.com/180-grain-rounded-flatnose-plain-base-p-16.html

DDawg
January 11, 2013, 09:45 PM
"Berry bullets says to use mid-level jacketed bullet data to load them"

My Lyman's only has TMJ in 165gr.
What would be an example of a mid-level jacked bullet? And where would be a trustworthy place to get load data?
All I have now is the Lyman's 49th. I looked on alliants web page and could only find marketing stuff on PP (but I may be looking in the wrong place?)

Thanks

rcmodel
January 11, 2013, 09:47 PM
Your Lyman manual, and most other loading manuals have a Starting load, and a Max load for every powder, with every bullet weight.

A mid-level load would be halfway between the Starting and Max powder charges.

rc

DDawg
January 11, 2013, 09:51 PM
"Have you ever tried this bullet for the 40 s&w?"

Thanks for the info, but for now I'm gonna use what I got. And those look like Cast/lead Bullets?
I have a standard bbl in my Glock, and they don't recommend shooting lead in a standard Glock bbl.

Thanks

DDawg
January 11, 2013, 09:56 PM
"A mid-level load would be halfway between the Starting and Max powder charges."

I gotcha, i was a little confused:rolleyes:

Thanks for your help!

BTW I build and fly RC models Too.. Last Build was a Sig Hog Bipe

rcmodel
January 11, 2013, 10:11 PM
A SIG Hog bipe!! Wow!
I'd forgot about them.

The last one I made a big smoking hole in the ground with 10 years ago was a baby blue & red Super Aero-Master Bipe with a piped Rossi 61 on it!

Beautiful old plane with a lot of aerobatic hours on it when I crashed it.

I had the radio in another plane, and when I put it back in the Aero-Master after work at 2:30 AM Sat morning, I hooked up the aileron servos backward!!

I'm here to tell ya, They are really hard to fly that way! :D

rc

DDawg
January 11, 2013, 10:31 PM
"I'm here to tell ya, They are really hard to fly that way!:D"

I saw a guy do that on the maiden flight of a scratch built Corsair..it was almost to sad to watch.

DD

Stormin.40
January 12, 2013, 10:07 AM
I have loaded both Berry's and Rainer's 165gr FP plated bullets. Rainer's recommends lead data and Berry's recommends mid jacketed data. In my experience they both load and shoot just fine with Jacketed data, I just work up from minimum charge weights to the velocity and accuracy I want. In a .40 I doubt you will push 1200fps the recommended maximum velocity for plated bullets.

I use HS-6 to push a 165 grain FP about 1000fps from a 4" barrel. From what I have read Power Pistol is a good powder for this combination. When I started loading 165gr .40 cartridges I tried to find PP but ended up with Title group, still have 1/2of that pound but have used a few pounds of HS-6.

greenlion
January 12, 2013, 10:34 AM
I've used Berry's plated 65gr .40 bullets for years. I've never had a problem with them no matter how fast I have pushed them, and I use FMJ data. I don't really see the point in trying to push a plated lead bullet to max velocities anyway. These are not defensive rounds so the only thing you would accomplish would be increased recoil in you target ammo.

You DO need to watch how much crimp you apply. You can damage the plating if you crimp too hard. You will see it bulge around the case mouth if you are using too much crimp.

Mr.Revolverguy
January 12, 2013, 11:59 AM
I use Xtreme bullets for my testing and reviews now and they have proven to be reliable and accurate. The one thing I really love about them is that in bullets meant for revolver cartridges they have a cannelure for crimping unlike Berry's, but we are talking about 40S&W here.

I use the 6.3 grains of Power Pistol which is the beginning load in the Lyman 49 manual.

Speer 14 Start load is 7.0 with Power Pistol

I have found that PP loaded at 6.3gr under a 165gr X-treme is very accurate, but flashy. This load has a very bright muzzle flash. I stopped using bluedot because of the muzzle flash but for now I am going to put up with it in PP because of the accuracy. HS-6 is another good powder with almost no flash but I just have not been able to get the accuracy out of it that I get from PP.

I hope to have a review completed for my website shortly containing a Beretta 90-Two in 40S&W and Beretta CX4 in 40S&W all performed with the load I mention above with PP. If for some reason something happened and the wife and I decided to remain at home and protect our families for a couple of days until help arrives this would be our go to for a number of different reason the main one is location. But the wife loves the CX4 and is very deadly with it. For my review here is a target she shot at 25 yards from Bipod with the PP load.

5 Shots to the neck -- 25 yards
5 Shots center mass -- 25 yards
10 Shots lower abdomen --25 yards
http://www.dayattherange.com/weapons/CX4-2.jpg

bds
January 12, 2013, 12:01 PM
Lyman's 49th edition it shows Power Pistol loads for 165gr TMJ starting 6.3 grns.

It seems to me that plated and TMJ Bullets are the same.

Are Berry's plated FP the same as the TMJ at least from a reloading standpoint?
Lyman #49 used Speer TMJ (http://www.speer-bullets.com/products/handgun/plinker/tmj.aspx) bullet (Speer/ATK obtained the registered trademark for TMJ - Total Metal Jacket in 1989) which is a plated bullet with thicker plating - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8499419#post8499419

IMO, you should be OK using Lyman Speer TMJ load data for Berry's bullets (I would start the powder work up from start charge and may back off a bit from the max charge if the accuracy trend deteriorates).

Jay from Berry's MFG comparing plating thickness of Berry's vs Speer TMJ bullets
Depending on caliber our plating is no less than .006" and goes up to .012" thick. Speer TMJ bullets are a plated bullet with an even thicker plating coming close to a jacket at about .015" in thickness.
__________________
Jay R. Phillips
Berry's MFG

IME, I have used mid-range jacketed load data for Berry's bullets with good results. FYI, I know you are already using Power Pistol but Hodgdon recently added 40S&W load data for Berry's bullets (http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp) in 155/165/180 weights.

longdayjake
January 12, 2013, 01:14 PM
Berrys are thinly copper Electro-Plated bullets .

Hornady TMJ are Encapulsated Jacketed bullets.

In other words, a conventional gliding metal jacket, with a gliding metal "lid" swaged over the base to keep the lead from getting out.

This is incorrect. Bds got it right. TMJ is a trademark of speer and they are indeed plated. However, they are plated much thicker than a berrys. The bullet that RCmodel is referring to is otherwise known as a CMJ or Complete Metal Jacket. I have also heard it called an encapsulated bullet but CMJ is easier to say and makes plenty of sense. A speer TMJ can pretty much be loaded the same way you would load a jacketed bullet whereas a Berry's bullet takes a little bit more fiddling to get it right.

bds
January 12, 2013, 01:32 PM
Yes, CMJ bullet on the right is a FMJ with a disk covering the lead base whereas TMJ will have plating all over the bullet like other plated bullets.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=177552&stc=1&d=1358012002

Factory CCI Blazer round pulled apart to show plated bullet

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=169774&stc=1&d=1344786883

greenlion
January 13, 2013, 09:34 AM
Berry's is also making a few bullet types with thicker plating, allowing you to shoot them at higher velocities.

The .40 Cal 165gr HBFP-TP Berry's says you can push it up to 1450 fps in a 10mm.

The 9mm 124gr HBRN-TP says 1450 fps as well.

They are both hollow based bullets which also gives you more bearing surface than traditional bullets at this weight. I've tried the hollow base bullets in .45 ACP and did not like them in lower pressure target ammo, but the higher pressure 9mm and .40 rounds should work fine.

1KPerDay
January 14, 2013, 12:59 PM
I use Xtreme bullets for my testing and reviews now and they have proven to be reliable and accurate. The one thing I really love about them is that in bullets meant for revolver cartridges they have a cannelure for crimping unlike Berry's, but we are talking about 40S&W here.

I use the 6.3 grains of Power Pistol which is the beginning load in the Lyman 49 manual.

Speer 14 Start load is 7.0 with Power Pistol

I have found that PP loaded at 6.3gr under a 165gr X-treme is very accurate, but flashy. This load has a very bright muzzle flash. I stopped using bluedot because of the muzzle flash but for now I am going to put up with it in PP because of the accuracy. HS-6 is another good powder with almost no flash but I just have not been able to get the accuracy out of it that I get from PP.

I hope to have a review completed for my website shortly containing a Beretta 90-Two in 40S&W and Beretta CX4 in 40S&W all performed with the load I mention above with PP. If for some reason something happened and the wife and I decided to remain at home and protect our families for a couple of days until help arrives this would be our go to for a number of different reason the main one is location. But the wife loves the CX4 and is very deadly with it. For my review here is a target she shot at 25 yards from Bipod with the PP load.

5 Shots to the neck -- 25 yards
5 Shots center mass -- 25 yards
10 Shots lower abdomen --25 yards
http://www.dayattherange.com/weapons/CX4-2.jpg
That's dang impressive.

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