British Army Replacing their 40 yeard old Hi-Powers with...


PDA






T2K
January 12, 2013, 07:58 PM
...wait for it...Glock 17's. http://uk.news.yahoo.com/military-glock-pistols-40-years-browning-000612010.html

So, of course we can hope that their old Brownings get sold to the US market as surplus!

Sorry if someone else already posted this, I looked and didn't see it though.

If you enjoyed reading about "British Army Replacing their 40 yeard old Hi-Powers with..." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
ApacheCoTodd
January 12, 2013, 08:08 PM
I've shot a lot of UK HPs and they were pretty much to a pistol - wrung out. Almost all of the mags were very unenthusiastic as well.

So, them going away and being replaced by a newer platform, I get.

BemidjiDweller
January 12, 2013, 08:24 PM
I'd be happy to see a bunch of surplus Brownings on the market.

Jaymo
January 12, 2013, 08:33 PM
Would make more sense for them to issue new HPs. Same manual of arms as what they already have.

wow6599
January 12, 2013, 08:36 PM
because their pistol is lighter, carries more bullets and is more accurate than the U.S.-made Browning.

Uh?

Jaymo
January 12, 2013, 08:41 PM
More accurate? Since when? Maybe more accurate than a 40 year old, worn out gun, but not more accurate than a brand new one.
That article looks like a Block fanboy post.

Old Fuff
January 12, 2013, 09:02 PM
I sure hope they remember to keep the trigger finger away from the trigger unless they mean it, and when getting ready to clean or take down the pistol they remove the magazine before clearing the chamber.

Their old P-35 Brownings had a manual safety and a magazine disconector - they may miss both. :uhoh:

As a side note: The special detail that protects the Royal Family has been carrying Glock 17's for some time.

PabloJ
January 12, 2013, 09:10 PM
I sure hope they remember to keep the trigger finger away from the trigger unless they mean it, and when getting ready to clean or take down the pistol they remove the magazine before clearing the chamber.

Their old P-35 Brownings had a manual safety and a magazine disconector - they may miss both. :uhoh:

As a side note: The special detail that protects the Royal Family has been carrying Glock 17's for some time.
The English made fine choice replacing old expensive to make design with new proven less expensive one. As military sidearm the G17 is superior to HP in EVERY way.

PabloJ
January 12, 2013, 09:16 PM
PS. I'm sure Glock made arrangements to have old HPs destroyed that way there will be fewer guns to compete with their product on lucrative US market.

Old Fuff
January 12, 2013, 09:54 PM
The English made fine choice replacing old expensive to make design with new proven less expensive one. As military sidearm the G17 is superior to HP in EVERY way.

In any large organization (such as an army or other military services) training and experience can be a wide vairable. The Glock is an excellent pistol, but it lacks a manual safety and magazine disconector. In this country Glock pistols are widely issued to law enforcement agencies and departments, and over time it has earned an unenviable reputation for negligent discharges. Of course this is not the gun's fault, but it is an issue to consider in the context of a military service pistol.

Pilot
January 12, 2013, 10:03 PM
The Browning Hi Power is accurate, reliable, and capable of 16 (15 + 1) capacity with flush fit mags like Mec Gar or 17 or more capacity with mags that have a bumper base. They are also very durable, and battle proven in many conflicts around the world. The only downside, as mentioned by others is cost. The propensity for Glocks to have ND's in the hands of large organizations with varying quality of people and training would make me choose something other than a Glock.

KenW.
January 12, 2013, 10:13 PM
It is unlikely this administration would allow these BHPs to be imported at least due to high-capacity "assualt clips" they employ.:barf: After all, these are "weapons of war" designed for the battlefield.

9mmepiphany
January 12, 2013, 10:37 PM
I'm not really surprised that they didn't outfit them with the SIG 226 that the SAS use. But for all the use that the handgun gets with the with their military, these Glocks should last forever

jfrey
January 12, 2013, 11:18 PM
A G17 is superior to a HP in every way???? I own both and I would say it ain't so. The P35 has been around a long time and proven itself. Old JMB had a hand in it so it has to be good. Glocks don't have the history yet.

wow6599
January 12, 2013, 11:32 PM
As I questioned in post #5, since when has the Hi Power been made in the USA?

9mmepiphany
January 12, 2013, 11:49 PM
A G17 is superior to a HP in every way???? I own both and I would say it ain't so.
That isn't what he posted. What he posted was:

As military sidearm the G17 is superior to HP in EVERY way.
Which is quite different

I found it interesting that they are only buying ~25,000 pieces...also that they will be carrying them in Blackhawk Serpa tactical holsters

Jenrick
January 13, 2013, 12:01 AM
The BHP requires a significantly longer logistics trail to support. There are many more parts, and armorer training takes longer. Glock armorer school was 8 hours (they may be up to 10 or 12 these days, not sure). The logistics trail for Glock parts, is ridiculously small. Basically if Pvt. Smith isn't messing with things he shouldn't there are about 5 parts that need to be stocked due to wear. Also while the BHP is argueably more accurate then a G17, the G17 is by no means inaccurate for combat purposes.

The Glock's reputation for AD/ND's in LE is not undeserved, however the incidence of AD's/ND's is dramatically lower these days. Probably about the same as any other pistol out there these days. The big issue at the time was that there was not just a ton of semi-auto pistols in LE prior to the Glock, S&W had some market, as did Colt, but by and large most departments still used revolvers. Officers used to revolvers, weren't used to having to check the chamber of a pistol, before calling it clear. This led to the often seen non-matching piece of tile/vinyl in squad rooms and cleaning rooms around the country. These days most police officers have only minimal experience with revolvers instead (had a cadet, not understand that a revolver didn't take magazines for instance), and how to properly clear one is much more common knowledge.

The British military shouldn't see any more issue's with transitioning to the G17 then the US Army did going to the Beretta from the 1911. Are they going to put rounds into clearing barrels and arms rooms floors for a bit? Sure, but I don't see if being a major issue.

-Jenrick

mgmorden
January 13, 2013, 12:26 AM
A G17 is superior to a HP in every way???? I own both and I would say it ain't so. The P35 has been around a long time and proven itself. Old JMB had a hand in it so it has to be good. Glocks don't have the history yet.

Glocks have been around for 30 years and are plenty proven by miltary and police forces all around the world. If you want nostalgia that may be one thing, but as far as a reliable weapons platform Glock is well beyond proven.

As to the old guns - you can bet they'll be destroyed. Not at Glock's bidding, but at the UK's. That is pretty much the most anti-gun government on the planet. They view our firearms situation in the US as a disease that we need their help fixing. There's no way they'll let those weapons go anywhere but the shredder.


I found it interesting that they are only buying ~25,000 pieces...also that they will be carrying them in Blackhawk Serpa tactical holsters

THAT does actually worry me, but I see a lot of cops using Serpas around here. Granted if you're safe and trained with them they're fine (and I have at least one Serpa in my holster drawer), but they're not good for novices, and by definition of their firearms laws for civvies ALL their new soldiers are handgun novices when they first join.

PabloJ
January 13, 2013, 12:34 AM
As I questioned in post #5, since when has the Hi Power been made in the USA?
I recall seeing one consigned at LGS along with two "Baby Brownings". The polish and bluing was excellent slides marked Made in USA plus Charlottesville Va address on boxes. I would think 70s vintage. Where parts were crafted could not be determined but I do not recall seeing any proof marks on slides or frames.

Pilot
January 13, 2013, 06:47 AM
These days most police officers have only minimal experience with revolvers instead (had a cadet, not understand that a revolver didn't take magazines for instance), and how to properly clear one is much more common knowledge.


There was an incident not to long ago at Philadelphia International Airport where a flight attended forgot she had a loaded, snubby revolver in her purse. It was detected upon the security screening where she was detained and her loaded pistol taken by TSA and given to a Philly police officer stationed at the airport. In an attempt to unload the revolver the police officer pulled the trigger of the revolver , had an ND, and put a bullet into a nearby wall. Being used to Glocks, she did not have the training, or did not pay attention in training to know that how to handle a loaded revolver. The officer was put on "administrative duties" temporarily but I am sure is back on the job, protecting us from harm. :rolleyes:

Onmilo
January 13, 2013, 06:56 AM
The Hi Power is a good pistol, matter of fact, I just bought another one.
The G17 is a more modern handgun that is just as good if not even better than the Hi Power.
It is fact proven to be a more reliable handgun under combat conditions.
Brits made a good choice but I do hope they have clearing barrels strategically placed, rest assured, there will initially be a large percentage of accidents with the gun.

usp9
January 13, 2013, 07:07 AM
Just wondering outloud; I wonder which gun, HP or Glock, has been produced in the in the largest number? Despite the longevity of the HP, the Glock, (due to huge numbers), may have more Man Years of use. Just wondering.

Kiln
January 13, 2013, 07:09 AM
Glocks have been around for 30 years and are plenty proven by miltary and police forces all around the world. If you want nostalgia that may be one thing, but as far as a reliable weapons platform Glock is well beyond proven.

As to the old guns - you can bet they'll be destroyed. Not at Glock's bidding, but at the UK's. That is pretty much the most anti-gun government on the planet. They view our firearms situation in the US as a disease that we need their help fixing. There's no way they'll let those weapons go anywhere but the shredder.




THAT does actually worry me, but I see a lot of cops using Serpas around here. Granted if you're safe and trained with them they're fine (and I have at least one Serpa in my holster drawer), but they're not good for novices, and by definition of their firearms laws for civvies ALL their new soldiers are handgun novices when they first join.
This. There's no way they're coming here. The UK wants to control every firearm in the world and as such you can bet your last dollar that there's no way we'll see these things imported.

tarosean
January 13, 2013, 08:11 AM
Had to LOL about this fine piece of journalism.

British soldiers are ditching the traditional Browning pistol for the more sophisticated and deadly Glock 17 – as used by our police.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-army-buys-glock-17-1528571

Kiln
January 13, 2013, 08:38 AM
Had to LOL about this fine piece of journalism.



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-army-buys-glock-17-1528571
Keep in mind that your average British reporter is just as or even MORE ignorant about guns than our own homegrown reporters.

If the new Glocks get used as often as the british tooth brush, they'll last the UK many lifetimes.

Old Fuff
January 13, 2013, 10:00 AM
This. There's no way they're coming here. The UK wants to control every firearm in the world and as such you can bet your last dollar that there's no way we'll see these things imported.

Probably true, but the U.K. government doesn't have to concern themselves. Considering their military background and magazine capacity over 10 rounds, it's unlike the Obama Administration would let them in, by invoking the 1968 GCA "sporting use" restriction.

T2K
January 13, 2013, 10:31 AM
The CZ-82 (military pistols, 12 round mag) was imported under the Obama regime, though?

falnovice
January 13, 2013, 10:56 AM
Just wondering outloud; I wonder which gun, HP or Glock, has been produced in the in the largest number? Despite the longevity of the HP, the Glock, (due to huge numbers), may have more Man Years of use. Just wondering.
Nope, not even close. The are are three BHP for every Glock in the world.....possibly four. Compound that with the fact that the majority of the Glocks manufactured are here in the USA, mostly in civilian hands. THe BHP has been used in conflicts all over the world for the last sixty years. It is a proven design.
People grossly overestimate the amount of Glocks in the world, mostly because of the marketing powerhouse that Glock is.
The Hi Power has been the most widely used 9mm handgun in the world for a long time, and will continue to be for the next couple decades.

I love the Hi Power, it is my favorite handgun. I own several. Having said that, I have to say I think the Brits made a good choice with the Glock. Tough, durable, and damn near grunt-proof it is an excellent selection for a long use handgun.

I seem to recall a long thread when the SAS was switching out the BHP for the Sigs were some Brits weighed in with opinions. I can't find it here so it must have been another forum.
If I remember correctly the biggest complaint they had against the BHP was it was worn out. They had been using these guns for a long time, and the older Hi Powers aren't as durable as modern guns. Even with minimal use 500 rounds a year over 40 years is about the entire service life of Pre- MKIII Hi Power.....beyond the service life if they weren't doing proper maintaince. (Which few militaries do)
The second compaint was the magazines were all worn out.
Now I believe there was some discussion back then about the Glocks but the lack of second strike capabiity and soft primer strikes took them from the running.

Going forward, no military that currently uses BHPs will ever sign a contract for more of them. FN really doesn't want to sell them, they certainly haven't tried to modernize the design and as a whole the world has moved to polymer. The price points alone favor Glock heavily.

In closing, I love the Hi Power. I have introduced many people to these fine guns and several of them converted to the BHP. Ergos, pointability, accuracy, and reliability.....these are fantastic guns. But if I were tasked with outfiting any sizable force with pistols in the modern world it would definately be a modern polymer striker fired pistol a la Glock/M&P. These guns bring a lot to the table for any organization that expects decades of use.

jmorris
January 13, 2013, 11:15 AM
I sure hope they remember to keep the trigger finger away from the trigger unless they mean it, and when getting ready to clean or take down the pistol they remove the magazine before clearing the chamber.

Their old P-35 Brownings had a manual safety and a magazine disconector - they may miss both.

Your supposed to keep the bugger hook off the bang button "unless you mean it" regardless of the number of safeties.

I also don't miss removing the mag safety disconnectors from my hi powers, awful idea.

mgmorden
January 13, 2013, 11:28 AM
The CZ-82 (military pistols, 12 round mag) was imported under the Obama regime, though?

As were the Polish MAG98's, surplus Israeli Hi-Powers, and we're still seeing surplus SIG 226's come in. We could get them imported from our end, but I Britain simply isn't going to sell.

Paul7
January 13, 2013, 03:12 PM
That's a step backwards. Why not get new HPs? I predict lots of NDs with the new Glocks.

jmorris
January 13, 2013, 03:28 PM
If they use the NY trigger it would be easier to have an ND with a revolver.

jon_in_wv
January 13, 2013, 04:07 PM
The BHP requires a significantly longer logistics trail to support. There are many more parts, and armorer training takes longer. Glock armorer school was 8 hours (they may be up to 10 or 12 these days, not sure). The logistics trail for Glock parts, is ridiculously small. Basically if Pvt. Smith isn't messing with things he shouldn't there are about 5 parts that need to be stocked due to wear.

I don't' know about parts wear but the idea the Glock has fewer parts is just not true. Glock has fed the lie for years that it only has 35 parts or so when 5-6 of those "parts" are actually parts assemblies of numerous parts making its actual part count 50+. In an honest count of the number of parts the HP is actually a simpler design.

I'm sure the fact it is a CHEAPER design with have much more impact than any fictitious notion of its parts count and logistics. The G17 is a good pistol and if it can do the same job for less money than why not change to it? It makes sense to me.

VAgunner
January 13, 2013, 04:55 PM
Also you have to take into consideration that currently the BHP is a low production count gun. They do not make many of them anymore. Economy of scale is simply not working for them in terms of large military or LEO contracts. I would be willing to bet if FN bid on it they did not submit the BHP for consideration. It would have made much more sense to submit something like the FNX.

I love the BHP and am not a huge Glock fan but I do not understand all the vitriol over this choice. The sidearm is simply does not play a major role in combat anymore or am I missing something.

falnovice
January 13, 2013, 05:02 PM
I'd be very surprised if FN even entertained another BHP bid.
They are all about their polymer line now.

Price point is always going to favor Glock. They are willing to play hard with cutthroat pricing.

easyg
January 14, 2013, 12:13 AM
The Brits chose wisely.

Swing
January 14, 2013, 12:15 AM
I'd be happy to see a bunch of surplus Brownings on the market.

+1. :D

gunnutery
January 14, 2013, 04:39 AM
I predict lots of NDs with the new Glocks.

There are multiple European countries that issue Glocks to their militaries. Many of which have played active rolls in A'stan. I haven't heard of massive complaints of NDs from them.

Mp7
January 14, 2013, 04:53 AM
considering a pistol is the absolute last resort ... in a war,
... is it really that important?

low-cost, high reliability, low maintenance.

itīs a tool. And as we all know, it`s a good one.

Like it or not.

KenW.
January 14, 2013, 10:01 AM
They probably won't be permitted to carry with one in the chamber.

Gary A
January 14, 2013, 12:08 PM
They probably won't be permitted to carry with one in the chamber.

That's quite possibly true but the Glock, with its blocky slide and lack of a hammer with a 32 pound mainspring to overcome, is certainly more user friendly in manipulating the slide to quickly chamber a round than the Hi Power .

Don't misunderstand me. Recently when deciding between a Gen 4 Glock 17 and a Browning Hi Power 75th Anniversary, I chose the BHP. I can always buy a Glock, though there is some concern that it may not have three 17 round mags when I do

9mmepiphany
January 14, 2013, 03:00 PM
lack of a hammer with a 32 pound mainspring to overcome
I have to ask, which gun has a 32lb mainspring?

easyg
January 14, 2013, 03:00 PM
They probably won't be permitted to carry with one in the chamber.
I'll bet both their military police and their SAS will have one in the chamber.

Gary A
January 14, 2013, 03:13 PM
I have to ask, which gun has a 32lb mainspring?
The Browning Hi Power has come from the factory with a 32 pound mainspring since sometime in the 1970's. Previously, I understand it was 26 pounds.

bannockburn
January 14, 2013, 04:28 PM
Wolff Gunsprings currently list the Hi-Power as having a 17 lb. recoil spring and 32 lb. hammer spring from the factory. I think FN switched from a 26 lb. hammer spring to the current one around 1975. The standard recoil spring for a Glock 17 (not Gen.4), is 17 lbs. along with a 5.5 lb. striker spring.

CPshooter
January 14, 2013, 05:03 PM
This. There's no way they're coming here. The UK wants to control every firearm in the world and as such you can bet your last dollar that there's no way we'll see these things imported.
I wonder if they'll melt them down just like the Canadian government did with their HPs (http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-683525.html)! What is this world coming to?

Onmilo
January 15, 2013, 05:01 AM
New Browning Hi-Powers would run about $850 each in a quantity.
New Glock17s run about $400 each on a quantity buy.
Replacement barrel for a Browning would cost about $275 each.
New barrel for a Glock is about $125 each.
None of the replacement parts for a Browning are going to be any cheaper per part than Glock either.
Do the Math.

jungle
January 15, 2013, 03:03 PM
FN, which produces the HP, has dropped it from all their military and police catalogs. Browning still imports a trickle, but I doubt FN has the production capacity for any large order.

I think the Brits made a good choice and wish them well with their new pistol.
The BHP is a great pistol, but producing it today would cost two or three times what a Glock costs.

Seven High
January 15, 2013, 07:37 PM
My guess is that the British Government will not pay any more than $175.00 each for their new G17s.

9mmepiphany
January 15, 2013, 11:09 PM
My guess is that the British Government will not pay any more than $175.00 each for their new G17s.
They give the price in the article...it is a bit more than that

PabloJ
January 16, 2013, 01:39 AM
My guess is that the British Government will not pay any more than $175.00 each for their new G17s.
I would guess $300+/-25.

jungle
January 16, 2013, 02:20 AM
No need to guess at the cost. 25,000 pistols @ 9 million pounds, no doubt this includes some support parts, training and the lovely holsters.

That is 14,450,000 green backs. That is $578 per pistol. Somebody made some money.:D

BulletArc47
January 16, 2013, 03:22 AM
Quote:because their pistol is lighter, carries more bullets and is more accurate than the U.S.-made Browning.

Uh?

You're right, the HP (P-35) was originally manufactured by FN wasn't it. Did the current Browning Co, make HP for the Brits?

jungle
January 16, 2013, 03:38 AM
Browning never made the BHP, they were all made by FN, in fact Browning makes no firearms at all, they just market guns produced by other companies.

HorseSoldier
January 16, 2013, 05:19 AM
The British military has some corporate knowledge of the Glock 17 -- they issued them to the Iraqi police organization they stood up in Basra and it's environs. Much like how the US .mil had to farm out a lot of Foreign Internal Defense missions to conventional units, the UK guys training the Iraqi police were not SAS troopers, but conventional guys from various units.

This probably played a role in their selection, though I'm sure part of it had to do with Glock being a crazy competitive bidder for contracts.

Loc n Load
January 16, 2013, 09:38 AM
I won't argue Glock vs. Hi pwr - I have background with both... own both, have carried both, instructed both and shot tons of ammo thru both platforms.
In the latter part of the 80's and early 90's the FBI HRT used Browning Hi powers, and Wayne Novak built them for the FBI if memory serves me. I have one of those...along with a couple of "stock" Hi powers.....had a good friend of mine at Quantico who had logged over 100,000 rds thru his Hi power as an HRT operator. Those lad's got a lot of trigger time every week and got paid to do it. IF any major military service uses a certain piece of ordnance for decades, then that speaks volumes for that piece.

jon_in_wv
January 16, 2013, 10:12 AM
The HP is a great design and a great pistol. It deserves more respect than it gets.

If you enjoyed reading about "British Army Replacing their 40 yeard old Hi-Powers with..." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!