Wilson Case Guage


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BGD
January 13, 2013, 06:52 PM
I just got a wilson case guage for a 270 WSM and found out there is a .024 difference between a fired case and a full length resize case. seems like quite a bit to me? what do you think?

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parker51
January 13, 2013, 07:12 PM
Length? Width?

BGD
January 13, 2013, 07:26 PM
Sorry, Length from shoulder to base.

parker51
January 13, 2013, 07:35 PM
Which is longer the new brass or the resized brass? Are you pushing the shoulder back too far with the resizing die? The brass is going to expand to fit the chamber it is was fired in. When you full length resize it should push the shoulder back to about the same as an unfired case (depending on how you have your resizing die set).

Walkalong
January 13, 2013, 07:50 PM
there is a .024 difference between a fired case and a full length resize case. Length from shoulder to base. If you are pushing the shoulder back .024 that is way, way, too much. I would double check that measurement if that is what you mean. .003 to .006 max would be more like it.

BGD
January 13, 2013, 07:56 PM
The fired brass is longer than the resized by .024. A factory loaded case looks to be close to the FL sized shoulder to base length. I cant measure it since the bullet is in the way. I looks like my chamber is fairly long. I will be using a neck size die until my cases get to tight then I will bump them back. I was just surprised to find so much of a difference.

dmazur
January 13, 2013, 08:04 PM
I cant measure it since the bullet is in the way.

Both Wilson gauges I have permit checking loaded rounds just fine.

How is the bullet interfering with using the gauge to measure shoulder to base length?

Walkalong
January 13, 2013, 08:09 PM
What are you measuring? Case length, or base to shoulder length? What are you using to get the measurement?

If you have pushed the shoulder back .024 DO NOT fire them.

BGD
January 13, 2013, 09:20 PM
My cyphering needs help.:banghead: I checked again and it looks more like .015 not .024. The manufactured cartridge is 2091 the resized is 2090 and the fired case is 2105. The manufactured cartridge was hard to get a reading on with the bulled there, but I think I got a valid measurement. Does .015 sound more reasonable?

243winxb
January 13, 2013, 09:34 PM
http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/HeadClearance1.jpg I think something is very wrong with your 270 WSM . See #9

parker51
January 13, 2013, 09:36 PM
The "trim to" length for this round is 2.090. I don't see any problem at all with these measurements. You don't even need to worry about trimming the brass until it exceeds 2.100.

dmazur
January 13, 2013, 09:42 PM
With the caliper jaw blocking the end of the gauge, the case may not be able to travel far enough to stop against its shoulder. That end of the gauge is the "trim length" and it is not supposed to be obstructed.

Try measuring using the "tail" of the caliper (depth rod) to straddle the end of the gauge. Keep the caliper body on the high step and extend the depth rod to touch the case.

BGD
January 13, 2013, 10:05 PM
Found a cool video on the wilson case guage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuJYpm-qplQ

Using this method my fired case is .014 over saami maximum length. If I size to minim saami specs it will be .019 different than the fired case. I will just neck size and bump it back when I need to.

Walkalong
January 14, 2013, 08:44 AM
Using this method my fired case is .014 over saami maximum length. If I size to minim saami specs it will be .019 different than the fired case
So now you are talking about case length. This is completely normal. Always size them before measuring, then trim them.


I would still like to clear up what you are calling a base to shoulder measurement and how are you getting it.

BGD
January 14, 2013, 08:58 AM
I don't know how to describe it correctly. The case rests on the shoulder in the gauge so the measurement is not from the case mouth. After watching the video I was able to use the gauge correctly.

Sorry for the confusion.
Thanks

dmazur
January 14, 2013, 11:15 AM
Well, that sure looks like a gun with excessive headspace, from the perspective of my limited experience.

If you resize so the case is 0.004" less than fired length, does the case chamber easily?

There's no reason to resize to SAAMI unless you intend for the ammo to be fired in more than one rifle.

I believe these are the options for excessive headspace -


Limit case head stretch to initial firing by resizing just enough for reliable chambering, ignoring SAAMI spec. This works if the ammo can be segregated for that particular rifle.
Have the excess headspace condition repaired and then resize to SAAMI spec. Then the ammo will fit any rifle which is also in spec.


However, with excess headspace as large as indicated by your measurements, I wouldn't even consider the first option...Your case life is going to be exceedingly short if you don't fix the excess headspace.

fguffey
January 14, 2013, 01:43 PM
Wilson Case Guage

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“I just got a Wilson case gage for a 270 WSM and found out there is a .024 difference between a fired case and a full length resize case. seems like quite a bit to me? what do you think?”

As usual, I am am from a different school, I measure first, before firing, my opinion, the first measurement taken after acquiring a new Wilson case gage should be taken from the new, out of the box, factory round. the next round to be measured should be of the fired case. The third measurement should be taken of the case after sizing ‘TO DETERMINE IF THE FULL LENGTH SIZER DIE HAS THE ABILITY TO RESTORE THE CASE TO MINIMUM LENGTH FROM THE HEAD OF THE CASE TO THE SHOULDER.

Problem! a FORUM RELOADER does not understanding the meaning of full length sizing. The same reloader does not understand the meaning of MINIMUM LENGTH. Full length sizing restores the case to minimum length.

WSM, standard question: My WSM cases will not chamber after sizing, no one knows the length of the case before chambering, if a reloader developed good habits they would know the length of the case that did chamber, knowing the length of the case from the head of the case to its shoulder before firing they would have a comparative measurement when determining if the full length sizer die restored the case back to minimum length, better yet they would know how effective their press, die and shell holder was at sizing the case.

For those that watched the video, straight edge? If a reloader can understand a straight edge or pocket rule it is a short step to move on to a feeler gage and it is cheaper to use a feeler gage than a dial caliper or height gage, then there is the opposite end of the dial caliper, the opposite end of the dial caliper is a height gage, it is like a tuffer-one Multi purpose Swiss army knife tool.

Again, the seat in the bottom of the Wilson case gage is a datum, as in measure from. At the last gun show I took a few chamber gages, no one knew what they were and a few of the curious ask “What are these?”, Tough sale, instead of the datum as in measured from the chamber gage has a shoulder for measured from. Different type of chamber gage, unlike the ones sold on the Internet, the reloader is wasting their time if they do not know the case head protrusion when using a new, unfired, factory round.

When measuring the length of the Wilson case gage the length of the gage should match the length of the case according to ‘the book’. and, measurements should be taken from the shoulder (datum) back and the shoulder (datum) forward.



F. Guffey

dmazur
January 14, 2013, 03:39 PM
More re: Wilson type cartridge headspace gauges -


The "headspace end" step can be 0.004" or 0.006" or whatever SAAMI says.
The "trim length" step is usually 0.010", with the top step indicating a need to trim and the bottom step confirming that you managed to take 0.010" off.


Furthermore, (and I didn't know this until reading the instructions), Wilson designed the gauge so trim length is measured with the gauge upright (that is, the case head resting on a flat surface), not inverted with the shoulder against its datum.

So, the length of the gauge is the same as the "needs to be trimmed" length of the case. But the neck portion isn't measured from the shoulder datum forward, but from the bottom of the gauge forward.

I suppose it makes sense to design it that way. That way, after resizing (which hopefully puts the head between the steps), you just invert the gauge on a flat surface and check the height of the mouth to determine COL.

But, if you have a "long chamber" and have the case head protruding "above" the max length step, the gauge won't be accurate for trim length. It will allow COL to exceed recommended trim length by the amount of head protrusion. The problem is academic, as the portion of the case which is longer doesn't get involved in the "long neck / crimped by rifling" part of the chamber. So the gauge is still useful, even though COL as measured with a caliper will be misleading.

fguffey
January 14, 2013, 04:05 PM
And I said I use a straight edge and I said I use a set up table without the straight edge because the flat surface of the set up table is a straight edge, and I said I use a feeler gage with the straight edge and or set up table. Wilson included straight edge as in a pocket rule with their instructions, now, they are using a height gage and or dial caliper, I use the humblest of tools, the feeler gage.

I was watching a video and could not help but notice the poster of the video use the phrase “I discovered a new trick” so vain, he discovered he could use a shell holder in his inertia bullet puller, can you imagine, he discovered??? I could not believe he was that vain.

F. Guffey

fguffey
January 14, 2013, 04:16 PM
“The "headspace end" step can be 0.004" or 0.006" or whatever SAAMI says”

Not if the owner/user of the case gage understands ‘DATUM’ as in measured from, the first item recommended for purchase by the choir is “purchase a head space gage” then all the benefits are listed, all except the important ones, such as checking the ability of a full length sizer die to restore a case to minimum length/full length size and or check the accuracy of a Wilson case gage. A head space gage is a standard, the head space gage is a transfer gage, something else you never heard, I am the fan of transfers, I am the fan of standards, I am the fan of verifying and I can modify a go-gage to a go-gage to an infinity gage, something like an ‘ALL-IN-ONE’ gage.

And I make gages and I make datums, I purchase datums, and I collect datums. Datums do not drive me to the curb.

F. Guffey

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