Is this what USFA has become?


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PO2Hammer
January 13, 2013, 09:50 PM
http://www.usfirearms.com/

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JVaughn
January 13, 2013, 10:02 PM
I want one!!

Arp32
January 13, 2013, 10:16 PM
April Fools Day come early this year?

RetiredUSNChief
January 13, 2013, 10:24 PM
Dear God...just what we need...a snap-on .22 LR force multiplier for a SCAR 16 or M4.

May God have mercy on our enemies, doomed souls that they be now...

:rolleyes:

firesky101
January 13, 2013, 10:30 PM
I already emailed them to see if it was going to be submitted to the CA roster so I can buy one all legal like.

PO2Hammer
January 13, 2013, 10:34 PM
Somehow I don't see Cali approving this one.

TennJed
January 13, 2013, 11:25 PM
I didn't watch the video but saw that they had it labled "the future of fun". On that note, more power too them. Sometimes I get tired of the caliber / capacity / this is the gun that will save my life when a volcano lands on my house talk.

Fun is the forgotten part of this hobby. That zip gun doesn't do much for me and I will not buy one, but lots of folks think my Single Action revolvers are silly.

If you buy one have fun, if you don't make sure you find a way to have fun with what you do get

firesky101
January 14, 2013, 12:59 AM
Somehow I don't see Cali approving this one.
from the pdf spec sheet i could not see any reason it would not. Just needs to pass the drop test, and from what USFA says about their 5 safeties it should.

CraigC
January 14, 2013, 01:11 AM
Sad, sad, sad, sad, sad. :(

Old Fuff
January 14, 2013, 10:55 AM
Maybe, but it has the potential to make a lot more money for the manufacturer then high priced clones of Colt's SAA. It's not something I'm interested in, but we shall see.

bigfatdave
January 14, 2013, 11:03 AM
I want one as a toy (not for any practical reason)

antiquus
January 14, 2013, 11:56 AM
Yea I can see it might reduce the cost of killing the Zombie Hoards for me. Just what I need when I hit the bottom of that 75 round drum.

CraigC
January 14, 2013, 12:03 PM
Maybe, but it has the potential to make a lot more money for the manufacturer then high priced clones of Colt's SAA.
Let's get one thing clear, USFA has not changed direction because their guns did not sell. Not because they did not produce a better SAA than Colt ever did. They sold every gun they produced and were backlogged 12-18months on some guns. They have changed direction because president Doug Donnelly is flaky and got bored.

Old Fuff
January 14, 2013, 12:52 PM
They have changed direction because president Doug Donnelly is flaky and got bored.

I won't dispute your description of the company's SAA revolvers, but from the president's perspective it might be that the question was not how many revolvers they cound make, or what the back orders looked like, but how much profit could the get out of making the effort. I suspect that Mr. Donnelly is neither flaky nor bored, but rather has decided to shift directions in a quest for more profits. Making a 19th century revolver in this day and age, while making money isn't easy.

SharpsDressedMan
January 14, 2013, 01:15 PM
They used to have interested customers who bought their stuff. Let's see if interested customers follow in the new direction, or take business elsewhere........

CraigC
January 14, 2013, 01:56 PM
I won't dispute your description of the company's SAA revolvers, but from the president's perspective it might be that the question was not how many revolvers they cound make, or what the back orders looked like, but how much profit could the get out of making the effort. I suspect that Mr. Donnelly is neither flaky nor bored, but rather has decided to shift directions in a quest for more profits. Making a 19th century revolver in this day and age, while making money isn't easy.
Everything I've seen and heard, including from several industry folk, would indicate otherwise.

bannockburn
January 14, 2013, 02:04 PM
I had already viewed this new product as it came up in a discusstion on another thread dealing with choices in a small back-up pistol in .22LR. At the time I questioned its not so small size (using a Ruger 10/22 mag), and thought the advertising hyperbole was a little over the top. I am only interested in this product in as far as it's successful enough to hopefully allow for more capital to be invested towards increasing their SA revolver production sooner rather than later.

45bthompson
January 14, 2013, 02:49 PM
I think it's innovative. I'm glad to see someone take the risk of putting something different on the market. It's easy to talk trash on a product if it's not your thing.

Dr.Rob
January 14, 2013, 04:17 PM
Has anyone shot one of those things?

What an odd little pistol. Scores high on the 'neat' factor. Looks like a DA trigger?

CraigC
January 14, 2013, 04:52 PM
They're supposed to have them available to shoot at the SHOT Show in Vegas.

rhinoh
January 15, 2013, 06:25 AM
Cool- I too want one! Don't like the name though, zip gun used to mean something else...

buck460XVR
January 15, 2013, 06:05 PM
Is this what USFA has become?

http://www.usfirearms.com/

Only because this is what the gun buying public has become. Major established Manufacturers don't bring out new product lines without first doing market research and estimating demand. While it ain't my cup of Java, it sure reminds me of some of the Borderland video game weapons.........


http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/43/642/tediore_pistol.png

DPris
January 19, 2013, 01:22 AM
Back from SHOT Show in Vegas & yes- this is what USFA has become.
The traditional USFA operation is on hold "for a couple years" while they concentrate on the new zipper.
After which, they'll open it up again. IF the zipper sells well enough.

I didn't make it to the range shoot, but I did stop by & talk to a rep on the floor. The boss was about five feet away talking to other people, so I didn't try to bust in & talk to him directly.

I was told 35,000 orders had been taken by the third day of the Show.
I hefted one of the zippers & found it the most uncomfortable & ungainly handgun I've ever touched.
There may be novelty appeal, but to my mind the only thing going for it as a standalone pistol is that it can burn through a 25-round magazine in a hurry.
If that's all you're looking for, it'll do it.

I doubt thousands of buyers will spend the time & money to SBR it, but I could be wrong. :)
I'm all for new designs & new ideas in the Industry, but I'm just not seeing it on this one.
Denis

Boxhead
January 19, 2013, 05:00 AM
"Back from SHOT Show in Vegas & yes- this is what USFA has become.
The traditional USFA operation is on hold "for a couple years" while they concentrate on the new zipper.
After which, they'll open it up again. IF the zipper sells well enough.

I didn't make it to the range shoot, but I did stop by & talk to a rep on the floor. The boss was about five feet away talking to other people, so I didn't try to bust in & talk to him directly.

I was told 35,000 orders had been taken by the third day of the Show.
I hefted one of the zippers & found it the most uncomfortable & ungainly handgun I've ever touched.
There may be novelty appeal, but to my mind the only thing going for it as a standalone pistol is that it can burn through a 25-round magazine in a hurry.
If that's all you're looking for, it'll do it.

I doubt thousands of buyers will spend the time & money to SBR it, but I could be wrong.
I'm all for new designs & new ideas in the Industry, but I'm just not seeing it on this one.
Denis"

Given that highlighted above I do not expect to ever see single actions again from USFA.

Old Fuff
January 19, 2013, 09:56 AM
The traditional USFA operation is on hold "for a couple years" while they concentrate on the new zipper. After which, they'll open it up again...

And meanwhile the skilled and experienced workers who did the work after parts came off the machines will stay around and sit on their hands. Sure they will...

I agree - future Single Action revolvers are unlikely - at least in the present form.

USAF_Vet
January 19, 2013, 10:13 AM
In today's market of video game enthusiasts, the younger generation simply doesn't care much about single action revolvers. You can't rely on the older crowds to keep buying guns they already have. Those who are interested in a SAA clone probably already bad one.

This is business 101, your company has to grow and change with the times or become ancient history.

I'd love to get my bands on one. I don't know if I'm willinnto drop $200 bucks on one just yet, considering the price of the BX-25 magazine is, last time I checked, $75.

I see a lot of folks make fun and bad mouth the gun. But people did the same with another lightweight, plastic gun with radically different ergonomics. Just ask Eugene Stoener how people felt about his design.

CraigC
January 19, 2013, 11:26 AM
This is business 101, your company has to grow and change with the times or become ancient history.
What people need to realize is that this is not business 101. Doug is not changing the direction of the company because it's the right business decision. It's what HE wants to do. He has never run it like a proper business. It's basically his personal candy store and he doesn't need the money. If it was a corporation he would've been fired a long time ago.

Gary Grainger and most of the skilled labor are long gone.

I would be surprised if Doug Turnbull didn't pick up where USFA left off.

DPris
January 19, 2013, 11:36 AM
Stoner's designs at least had something to hang onto. :)
The zipper doesn't.
No grip, no pointability to speak of.
If they'd just included a grip of some sort, it could have helped. Ergonomics are terrible.
Denis

USAF_Vet
January 19, 2013, 11:42 AM
If their skilled labor is gone, is it any wonder why they shifted their scope? A good single action take skilled craftsman to make. If you no longer have have said craftsman, you either continue to create what you know for, even if the quality takes a severe hit, or you make something that does it require the same skill set.

A plastic striker fired gun dies not take the same lev of skill as a stell SAA clone.

The company I work for started making a specific product. When they could no longer make money by creating, marketing and sell that product, they changed their scope and shifted to a product they could sell. The president of my company made that decision, and thankfully it worked.

I don't know the history of USFA, or the people in charge, but if they could not turn a profit by selling SAA clones because they no lover had the skilled craftsmen to make it properly, should they have just closed their doors and said 'its been a nice run, good luck'? That might have been an option, but instead it seems they chose to revamp and make something they could make a profit on.

The future will tell if it was a the right choice.

USAF_Vet
January 19, 2013, 11:44 AM
Stoner's designs at least had something to hang onto. :)
The zipper doesn't.
No grip, no pointability to speak of.
If they'd just included a grip of some sort, it could have helped. Ergonomics are terrible.
Denis
Funny. People say the same thing about Glock ergonomics.

I'm not arrogant enough to judge something before I have first hand experience with it.

CraigC
January 19, 2013, 11:48 AM
If their skilled labor is gone, is it any wonder why they shifted their scope?
They didn't stop making single actions because the skilled labor left. The skilled labor left because they stopped making single actions.


I don't know the history of USFA...
Obviously, because you're making assumptions as if this were any other company. It is not and the information presented either comes from Doug or industry folks, not rumors from the local gun shop.


...but if they could not turn a profit by selling SAA clones because they no lover had the skilled craftsmen to make it properly, should they have just closed their doors and said 'its been a nice run, good luck'?
I've said this three times now, they are not changing direction because they did not make a profit. Your assumptions are all dead wrong.


I'm not arrogant enough to judge something before I have first hand experience with it.
And I do believe he said he handled one at the show. :rolleyes:

Guillermo
January 19, 2013, 12:05 PM
It does not look as it actually has a grip

While I am all for toys and this looks cute, it looks like that is all it is.

CraigC
January 19, 2013, 12:15 PM
I'm a diehard traditionalist, own four USFA single actions and wanted several more but I'm no stick in the mud either. I'm all for new stuff, innovation and new directions. I also hate the turdsuckers who always come out of the woodwork when something new comes out but I just don't understand this one. Forget the single actions for a moment, the Zip just doesn't make sense. If it had a grip and was basically a high quality TEC-22 or something similar, I'd be the first in line.

buck460XVR
January 19, 2013, 12:15 PM
What people need to realize is that this is not business 101. Doug is not changing the direction of the company because it's the right business decision. It's what HE wants to do. He has never run it like a proper business. It's basically his personal candy store and he doesn't need the money. If it was a corporation he would've been fired a long time ago.




But in reality.....that too is business 101. It clearly shows the difference between a corporation driven by profits for shareholders and a privately owned company. In the former decisions are made by CEOs and a board of directors for supposedly the better good of all stockholders in the pursuit to create profit and raise the value of their investment. A privately owned business run by someone without a desire to increase their wealth is driven more by emotion and a desire to be known for something. A "Spruce Goose" kinda thing. But regardless of how deep an owners pockets are, at some point of losing money, the doors will close.

DPris
January 19, 2013, 12:23 PM
Vet,
As with the Stoner designs- Glocks have a real HANDLE. :)
On the zipper you just mickey mouse a "hold" on it. No grip. Fits the hand poorly.
All angles, no handle, no curves to fit the palm & wrap fingers around.
Denis

CraigC
January 19, 2013, 12:48 PM
But in reality.....that too is business 101. It clearly shows the difference between a corporation driven by profits for shareholders and a privately owned company. In the former decisions are made by CEOs and a board of directors for supposedly the better good of all stockholders in the pursuit to create profit and raise the value of their investment. A privately owned business run by someone without a desire to increase their wealth is driven more by emotion and a desire to be known for something. A "Spruce Goose" kinda thing. But regardless of how deep an owners pockets are, at some point of losing money, the doors will close.
Sorry guys but you've obviously put zero thought and zero research into this. We've been watching USFA very closely for two years and nothing I've seen supports your assumptions.

trickyasafox
January 19, 2013, 02:13 PM
it looks neat. if we can get them in NY I might not be able to say no

Old Fuff
January 19, 2013, 02:28 PM
I would be surprised if Doug Turnbull didn't pick up where USFA left off.

Quite possible, because he specializes in high quality/small runs. But it would largely dependent on what the tooling cost, and I would expect the MSRP would be higher. To get away with that he’d have to noticeably exceed what Colt is turning out. I think most of the high-end buyers go for Colt’s because in addition to the gun they’re buying the name.

Dr.Rob
January 19, 2013, 02:35 PM
SHOT reviews of this were unkind to put it mildly.

USAF_Vet
January 19, 2013, 02:45 PM
Yet 35,000 pre orders does say something.

DPris
January 19, 2013, 03:03 PM
There's the novelty, but it remains to be seen how many will sell once people actually get 'em in hand & word spreads.
Denis

CraigC
January 19, 2013, 03:07 PM
Quite possible, because he specializes in high quality/small runs. But it would largely dependent on what the tooling cost, and I would expect the MSRP would be higher. To get away with that he’d have to noticeably exceed what Colt is turning out. I think most of the high-end buyers go for Colt’s because in addition to the gun they’re buying the name.
I would not say that "most" high end buyers go for Colt. You have a few that still think the Colt name means something. You also have a lot of shooters who would rather buy the superior product, rather than a name. What you guys fail to understand is that USFA was very busy building single actions. They were not sitting around waiting for orders to come in.

The MSRP should be higher on a superior product that is closer to the original than Colt's twice cheapened attempt that is more glamor and hype than substance.

DPris
January 19, 2013, 03:46 PM
Dad blast & burnit! I LIKE my Colts, Craig!!!!!!!!!
( :) )
Denis

CraigC
January 19, 2013, 04:05 PM
Yeah but you're talking about 1st and 2nd generation Colt's, not new ones. That's a different story. ;)

lowercase
January 19, 2013, 04:07 PM
I want one in 10mm, and one in .22TCM.

:D:D:D:D:D

DPris
January 19, 2013, 04:29 PM
Nope- my Third Gens re-made by Eddie Janis! :)
Denis

CraigC
January 19, 2013, 04:48 PM
I knew you were a snob! :p:D

1858
January 19, 2013, 05:00 PM
I have a pair of USFA Rodeos that I bought new from Long Hunter (Jim) a few years ago and given the incredible quality I was really hoping that USFA would get into the 1911 market in a serious way. They were offering a GI 1911 for a while and I had high hopes for a 1911 more along the lines of an Ed Brown, Les Baer or Wilson Combat.

As for the ZiP ... I had an email from USFA a couple of months ago announcing this atrocity and I immediately clicked on DELETE!! :barf:

DPris
January 19, 2013, 05:02 PM
Nope, just quite demanding on certain single-actions.
Among others. :)

Neither USFA nor Colt turns out anything comparable to Eddie's artistry, and I'm not talking mere cosmetics.
Denis

alienbogey
January 20, 2013, 11:05 AM
:barf::barf::barf:

TonyDedo
January 20, 2013, 09:55 PM
Looks like it should dispense Pez.

TimboKhan
January 21, 2013, 02:03 AM
On Shooting Reviews, John Shirley wrote a review that was not kind. He agrees with DPris in that it is awkward, and since he did get to shoot it, he was able to report that it was a highly prone to malfunction.

DPris
January 21, 2013, 02:34 PM
Back in 07 I worked with five .22 handguns as field, trail, and survival guns, including two pistols- a Ruger & a Browning.
Shooting in 17 degree Winter weather, neither of the pistols had any reliability problems whatsoever in those temps.

If USFA is promoting the zipper as an emergency or survival candidate, and it's affected that severely by 30-degree weather, that'd be a deal killer right there, for me.
Even if the lack of ergonomics hadn't already killed it off. :)
Denis

mgmorden
January 23, 2013, 11:13 PM
Looks interesting-ish. The malfunction part I don't like - no matter what a gun needs to work right. I could probably get around the poor ergos though. Don't like the charging handle - seems like a safety hazard to me.

Truthfully though, the thing looks cheap (in a materials and complication of assembly sort of way). If they can keep it that cheap and get it working right I wouldn't mind paying $100 for one. You occasionally see semi-auto .22LR rifles for not much more than that. Not sure why they can't build a handgun with less overall material for a similar price.

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