1858 pietta new army revolver


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Rattus58
January 16, 2013, 05:42 AM
WEll my first attemp was long and then when I sayed... review... well here I am again... so in the interest of brevity this time,

question 1. LEE 456-220... has anyone sized this say to .452?
2. Lee 450-200 has anyone tryed to "bump it up" into say a .452 or .454 mold... and yes I understand that you get a flat nose with this mostly... but shouldn't be a problem.
3. Has anyone used a gas check bullet in a cap and ball revolver?
4. Has anyone tried to use a .45 ACP bullet like the Lee.. 452200 RF?

Mahalo in advance...

Much Aloha... :cool:

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MCgunner
January 17, 2013, 09:34 PM
Forget the gas check, ain't for front loading. The bullet must shave lead as it's pressed, plus the Lee molds for cap and ball are beveled below size at the bottom to fit in the cylinder for pressing.

I have the 220 conical mold in both .457 and .454". The Piettas shoot 'em so, so and are more accurate with round ball, SO, I load my Piettas with round ball. My ROA loves the conicals and gets them almost exclusively.

Rattus58
January 17, 2013, 10:15 PM
Forget the gas check, ain't for front loading. The bullet must shave lead as it's pressed, plus the Lee molds for cap and ball are beveled below size at the bottom to fit in the cylinder for pressing.

I have the 220 conical mold in both .457 and .454". The Piettas shoot 'em so, so and are more accurate with round ball, SO, I load my Piettas with round ball. My ROA loves the conicals and gets them almost exclusively.
Gas checks in a front loader. It might not be appropriate in a pistol, but it absolutely is not only appropriate in my short-twist rifles, they are the most forgiving of bullets.

Now as to the pistol conical you're causing me questions as to what I want to do about a conical. If the lee mold drops a bullet undersized at the base, that makes them like the REAL bullet somewhat... which to me would be unfortunate.... thanks for that information. There is another bullet out there called the Kaida bullet... I might look into it and how it was designed and maybe see about buying one or having one made. It apparently is a fairly accurate bullet and for hunting, would be quite the deal in my opinion.

I appreciate your sharing with me your experience... Mahalo...

Aloha... :cool:

BSA1
January 17, 2013, 10:27 PM
It would help to understand what you are trying to reinvent. The 1858 Remington was designed to work with soft round lead ball bullets. They work best with oversize .457" ball.

Rattus58
January 17, 2013, 11:53 PM
It would help to understand what you are trying to reinvent. The 1858 Remington was designed to work with soft round lead ball bullets. They work best with oversize .457" ball.
Actually not trying to invent anything. I'm trying to get the right bullet to cast for my pistol. I'm partial to conicals for hunting, and that is one of the missions I have for this gun. I saw a video comparison of three bullets for these pistols, a round ball, a 200 or 220 grain conical and a 240 grain conical created by some dude named or called "Kaida..

I also saw a hunting video done by a gentleman using this same bullet I believe, and it did a nice job on a deer.... that's what I'm looking for. In the roundballs defense, I've never had a round ball not pass all the way through anything Ive ever shot with them.

However, back to the gas seal... .457 round ball.... Is it the .454 or the .457 that you find most productive in the Pietta type cylinders?

Thanks for the help... Much Aloha... :cool:

Acorn Mush
January 18, 2013, 12:11 AM
Dualist1954 did the testing of those bullets as I recall. You might do a search on Youtube for his videos. I do not remember what the specific title was or I'd find it for you and post a link. I'm not too handy with the computer, unfortunately.

Good luck.

swathdiver
January 18, 2013, 11:35 AM
It's Kaido btw. Most Pietta cylinders for new guns are in the .448 range. So a .457 ball is only going to put undo stress on your loading lever until you break it. .451s and .454s work just fine, my preference being the .454.

Those bigger bullets, to load directly onto the gun, you're going to have to get your Dremel out and make the loading area bigger for them.

My own plan is to try the .450 Lee Conical first.

Rattus58
January 18, 2013, 12:06 PM
It's Kaido btw. Most Pietta cylinders for new guns are in the .448 range. So a .457 ball is only going to put undo stress on your loading lever until you break it. .451s and .454s work just fine, my preference being the .454.

Those bigger bullets, to load directly onto the gun, you're going to have to get your Dremel out and make the loading area bigger for them.

My own plan is to try the .450 Lee Conical first.
When you say you are going to work on the loading area, what exactly are you referring?

Mahalo,

:cool:

Rattus58
January 18, 2013, 12:07 PM
Dualist1954 did the testing of those bullets as I recall. You might do a search on Youtube for his videos. I do not remember what the specific title was or I'd find it for you and post a link. I'm not too handy with the computer, unfortunately.

Good luck.
Thank you.... I found some of his videos last night.... way more stuff than just conicals.... :)

Much Aloha... :cool:

Acorn Mush
January 18, 2013, 07:24 PM
When you say you are going to work on the loading area, what exactly are you referring?

The loading "area" is actually a clearance cut (or port) on the right side of the frame in front of the cylinder. It allows the chamber with an unseated ball to be rotated under the rammer.

The port is typically not big enough to clear the larger (heavier) conical bullets, thereby preventing rotation of the cylinder to bring the bullet under the revolver's rammer.

(I hope I stated that clearly enough.):uhoh:

MCgunner
January 18, 2013, 07:46 PM
The port is typically not big enough to clear the larger (heavier) conical bullets, thereby preventing rotation of the cylinder to bring the bullet under the revolver's rammer.

And, this is precisely why the Lee 220 conical mold is undersized at the base. One presses the bullet down into the cylinder by finger pressure and it will then rotate under the rammer. I load off the gun, usually, though, so it's moot for me.

rodwha
January 19, 2013, 12:08 PM
I, too, have wondered about gas checked bullets. Without the cap they appear as though the base may slide right into the chamber.

There's a fellow on another forum that casts many projectiles, and recently informed me that he's been casting a 230 grn FN bullet that's a 45-70 gallery bullet, but resizing the base to work in an Old Army. You may want to contact him. His prices are more than reasonable, and I received my cast RB's from him quite quickly. I believe he told me he'd sell them for $11/100 + shipping. I'll be trying them once I run out of Kaido's bullets.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?87136-Forefather-s-Casting-Shop

Kaido does sell the custom Lee molds for his bullets. They are 6 cavity molds for something like $85.

The bullets used in the video testing powders and projectiles were the 255 grn version. He also makes a 240 grn version, and there is a video with them as well...

Rattus58
January 19, 2013, 02:01 PM
The loading "area" is actually a clearance cut (or port) on the right side of the frame in front of the cylinder. It allows the chamber with an unseated ball to be rotated under the rammer.

The port is typically not big enough to clear the larger (heavier) conical bullets, thereby preventing rotation of the cylinder to bring the bullet under the revolver's rammer.

(I hope I stated that clearly enough.):uhoh:
So you are "opening it up a little with a dremel" you're saying to accomodate the bullet?

Makes sense. Thank you...

Much Aloha.. :cool:

Rattus58
January 19, 2013, 02:02 PM
I, too, have wondered about gas checked bullets. Without the cap they appear as though the base may slide right into the chamber.

There's a fellow on another forum that casts many projectiles, and recently informed me that he's been casting a 230 grn FN bullet that's a 45-70 gallery bullet, but resizing the base to work in an Old Army. You may want to contact him. His prices are more than reasonable, and I received my cast RB's from him quite quickly. I believe he told me he'd sell them for $11/100 + shipping. I'll be trying them once I run out of Kaido's bullets.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?87136-Forefather-s-Casting-Shop

Kaido does sell the custom Lee molds for his bullets. They are 6 cavity molds for something like $85.

The bullets used in the video testing powders and projectiles were the 255 grn version. He also makes a 240 grn version, and there is a video with them as well...
I'll check that out... Thank you.

Much Aloha.. :cool:

Rattus58
January 19, 2013, 03:12 PM
By the way the best I can figure, my bore of my cylinder is about .453. So taking a .451 bullet, how does that translate or does the "squish" of the ball on the powder make up for it?

Still waiting to take my first shot with this thing... but getting closer.

Aloha.. :cool:

swathdiver
January 19, 2013, 11:12 PM
By the way the best I can figure, my bore of my cylinder is about .453. So taking a .451 bullet, how does that translate or does the "squish" of the ball on the powder make up for it?

It'll just drop right in and then roll right out when you level it out to shoot. .454s would also come loose and likely jam the cylinder after the first shot.

Are you sure about that measurement? What gun do you have and when was it made?

MCgunner
January 19, 2013, 11:16 PM
.454 round ball works GREAT for me in MY Pietta Remmy. I did some more accuracy testing today and shot a couple of 2.5" groups and a 3" group with .454 ball over 30 grains Pyrodex by volume and cornmeal filler. My 220 conical's best was a 4" group over the same charge. I'm stickin' with round ball even to hunt with IF i was to hunt with it. If I hunt with a cap and ball, though, I'll go with my ROA.

MCgunner
January 19, 2013, 11:24 PM
BTW, I load a .452" 200 grain TL SWC in .45ACP. Out of curiosity, I tried to load one in the Remmy today. Nope, the first part of the base to the first groove went in, then I didn't have enough arm to force it the rest of the way. I think they're too hard cast. Might work better in pure lead and without annealing, but ah, I'll pass.

Rattus58
January 20, 2013, 12:33 AM
It'll just drop right in and then roll right out when you level it out to shoot. .454s would also come loose and likely jam the cylinder after the first shot.

Are you sure about that measurement? What gun do you have and when was it made?
I don't know when it was made.. it is a pietta Remington New Army. I used a mechanical measure to get there and its not the probably most precise, but after about 6 or 7 tries at it, this is what I came out with.

I've found a place to get roundballs from .451 to .457.... so maybe I'll get one of each and try it.. worst case is that I can use the .457 in my .451 that have a groove diameter to .457 so a plinker at worst... maybe....

I'm still a conical lover for hunting sorta... so I'm still looking...

Thank you..

Aloha.. :cool:

Rattus58
January 20, 2013, 12:34 AM
BTW, I load a .452" 200 grain TL SWC in .45ACP. Out of curiosity, I tried to load one in the Remmy today. Nope, the first part of the base to the first groove went in, then I didn't have enough arm to force it the rest of the way. I think they're too hard cast. Might work better in pure lead and without annealing, but ah, I'll pass.
Interesting... the upper ring... do you know the diameter?

Aloha... :cool:

Acorn Mush
January 20, 2013, 06:34 PM
...worst case is that I can use the .457 in my .451 that have a groove diameter to .457...

Rattus58, any chance of you getting your chambers reamed out to a dimension which is closer to the groove diameter of your barrel?

Rattus58
January 20, 2013, 09:30 PM
I don't know... I don't see why not, though I'd not thought of that. That brings up two questions, one of finish and the second of strength or weakness?

Aloha... :cool:

mykeal
January 20, 2013, 10:46 PM
Won't affect strength, and as to finish - use cold blue if you really care, otherwise just keep it cleaned and oiled with a good rust preventative like you do the exterior.

Chambers should be reamed to .002" larger than groove diameter. If chambers are smaller than groove diameter, the ball/bullet will not fully engage the rifling, allowing gas blow by, affecting both velocity and accuracy.

Rattus58
January 21, 2013, 02:30 AM
Won't affect strength, and as to finish - use cold blue if you really care, otherwise just keep it cleaned and oiled with a good rust preventative like you do the exterior.

Chambers should be reamed to .002" larger than groove diameter. If chambers are smaller than groove diameter, the ball/bullet will not fully engage the rifling, allowing gas blow by, affecting both velocity and accuracy.
I'm going to have to get more accurate guages and actually mic these things... Thanks.. I'll let you all know what I find.

Aloha... :cool:

BSA1
January 21, 2013, 10:55 AM
MCgunner,

Do .454" balls shave a lead ring when you seat them?

Rattus58
January 21, 2013, 11:50 AM
MCgunner,

Do .454" balls shave a lead ring when you seat them?
If yer asking me, I've not loaded anything yet but that is what I'd be looking for. I'm going to attempt more accurate readings of my cylinder bores later today.

Much Aloha... :cool:

BSA1
January 22, 2013, 09:58 AM
Asking MCgunner or swathdiver,

Do .454" balls shave a lead ring when you seat them?

I agree that .457" are difficult to seat but they sure shave a nice lead ring.

Noz
January 24, 2013, 11:52 AM
If the round balls are sized to fit in the chambers with a swedge fit then they are most likely to be under bore size. If the correct alloy is used (dead soft lead) these balls will bump up to bore diameter when fired.
Been working that way for over 100 years now.

mykeal
January 24, 2013, 01:43 PM
Been working that way for over 100 years now.

I don't think so. Were the chambers on the original Colts and Remingtons under bore size? I realize the contemporary replicas all (it seems) have that problem - at least, most of mine do - but I've not seen evidence that the originals suffered from the same malady. It seems to me that's an incredibly unlikely mistake for the people who were smart enough to design these guns to make.

swathdiver
January 24, 2013, 09:34 PM
Asking MCgunner or swathdiver,

Do .454" balls shave a lead ring when you seat them?

I agree that .457" are difficult to seat but they sure shave a nice lead ring.

In my guns, yes! My chambers average .448, they shave a nice ring with .454s and a skinny one with .451s.

A .454 would probably not shave a ring in a .453 chamber. One would go with .457 balls in that case.

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