Origin of the 7-Round Magazine Limit?


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22-rimfire
January 16, 2013, 08:55 AM
Has anyone figured this one out yet? 1911 semi auto handgun magazine? 7-round revolver cylinders? Or was it carefully chosen to make unlawful many or most of the existing detachable magazines?

I don't live in NY, but I understand that they just made my Ruger SR-22P or Mark II/III illegal in its form produced at the factory.

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Ohio Gun Guy
January 16, 2013, 09:00 AM
I dont know their logic, but I think you are on to something regarding making most of any detachable magazine illegal. That is as good as any logic I have heard that makes any sence as to why they would do it (not that I agree).

goldie
January 16, 2013, 09:01 AM
These idiots probably rolled some dice :banghead:

Dejavu
January 16, 2013, 09:02 AM
Maybe Mr Bloomberg owns a .45 cal 1911.

sonick808
January 16, 2013, 09:03 AM
1911 and revolvers popped into my head

What in the world are people with 10/22's and other ubiquitous 10rd mags. What a mess.

herkyguy
January 16, 2013, 09:03 AM
I doubt they have any empirical data whatsoever. It's an emotional response by people who would rather close their eyes and tell themselves someone will come to help when things get bad.

9mmforMe
January 16, 2013, 09:05 AM
Maybe they are just feeling lucky. :confused:

MErl
January 16, 2013, 09:06 AM
my first thought was revolvers
hunting in the state is limited to 5 rounds +1 in the chamber
(so as one *censored* on the floor said "You have one extra for good measure")

What in the world are people with 10/22's and other ubiquitous 10rd mags. What a mess.

Pop the follower off and put a stick in the bottom?
Completely ignore the rule?
Drill & put a pop rivet in?

Sadly the way the rule is written, what is legal to limit capacity is completely arbitrary. There is no guidance at all.

kwguy
January 16, 2013, 09:09 AM
Of course there was no logical rationale behind it. It's a politically driven emotional knee jerk response to a "tragic opportunity". The only logic behind it was to never let a crisis go to waste in pushing their agenda. It's actually not a "knee jerk" reaction at all. It was planned, and waiting in the wings. The "knee jerk" part of it is that many people are just going along with it without thinking it through because they are being driven by their emotions. The politicians are playing them, plain and simple. I mean really? From 10 rounds to 7? Come on.

sonick808
January 16, 2013, 09:12 AM
Pop the follower off and put a stick in the bottom?
Completely ignore the rule?
Drill & put a pop rivet in?

Sadly the way the rule is written, what is legal to limit capacity is completely arbitrary. There is no guidance at all.

Exactly!

Are there millions of potential felons waking up today with no idea how to be non-felons in NY ? Talk about a cluster...

Onmilo
January 16, 2013, 09:17 AM
7 round magazine limit basically allows only small concealable semiautomatic handguns such as The kel tec and Ruger and the cheapo pot metal guns such as the Bryco-Jennings-Cobra clan.
(Can you guess what's next on their ban list.)
It is unlikely manufacturers can or even will bother to produce and supply enough 7 shot specialty magazines to New York within the 30 day window which then effectively turns most semi auto handguns into single shots unless the owner chooses to violate the law and continue using his 10 shot magazine which will result in a misdemenor charge until NY decides to make the offense a felony.

This legislation is a pure attack on law abiding citizens.

By the way, I am a bit confused on the legality of M1 Garand which uses a clip feed fixed magazine, no detachable box and how does this law translate to weapons such as lever/pump rifles which feature larger than 7 shot magazines?????

Steel Horse Rider
January 16, 2013, 09:36 AM
I think the inevitible challenge is for the gun owners in the state to completely ignore the statute and let the prosecutors try to justify the law in court. This is the ultimate vehicle for organizations like the NRA and the ACLU to challenge the scope and motivations of lawmakers. You cannot constitutionally make millions of lawful citizens into criminals with a stroke of the pen without opening a pandora's box of future actions. This law deprives the owners the right to use their legally purchased property and the government cannot take that action without compensating them for it at the very least.

TexasP226
January 16, 2013, 09:40 AM
It as stated during the hearings yesterday in the Assembly that the number was reached by NY law enforcement officials, not politicians. Question the validity of that, but that is what was said.

Rob G
January 16, 2013, 10:03 AM
A couple thoughts:

1. From what I understand, you can still use 10 round magazines if you have them, you just can't load them past 7 rounds. :banghead:

2. By "New York Law Enforcement Officials" I assume they mean police chiefs, who in many places, especially New York, are more politician than Police Officer. You have to remember that the International Chiefs of Police and the FOP often disagree on subjects, especially guns. This is probably not a rank and file opinion.

3. Seven was probably chosen for two distinct reasons:

A. They've already done 10, it didn't work, so clearly the magic number is lower.

B. Outlawing all semi-auto pistols with a mag limit might put them in danger of having their law overturned by citing Heller's use of Miller to establish protection for weapons "commonly in use in the home" for self protection. By going with seven they can say "See you can still have 1911s and S&W Shields and many other similiar single stack semi-autos."

4. I imagine that large caliber handguns may suddenly become very popular in NY. If you can't carry more than 7+1, then some of the arguments in favor of 9mm over .45 sort of go away. Not all of them mind you, but some, which could cause a resurgence in the popularity of large caliber handguns.

gfanikf
January 16, 2013, 10:04 AM
These idiots probably rolled some dice :banghead:

Certainly not D&D ones.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

Rob G
January 16, 2013, 10:05 AM
Certainly not D&D ones.

I see what you did there. :D

22-rimfire
January 16, 2013, 10:07 AM
There was some mention about a button magazine release as not being allowed (military feature or something?). Maybe the limit in fact is essentially to make most semi-auto pistols illegal?

NY Law Enforcement "officials".... same anti-gun group that deals with NYC.

rdhood
January 16, 2013, 10:12 AM
I think the inevitible challenge is for the gun owners in the state to completely ignore the statute and let the prosecutors try to justify the law in court.

And this is why challenging firearms laws takes so long. To gain "standing", one usually has to break the law, spend all his savings, and risk many years in prison. Legislators know that they can pass something that will stand for years, regardless of the constitutionality of the law, because someone does want to risk life savings/prison in order to make a point.

HankR
January 16, 2013, 10:19 AM
I think they picked 7 because it's lower than 10 and they wanted to be able to brag about the "most restrictive" gun laws in the country. This gives freedom-hating legislators in other states the cover to say either:

A) "Let's do seven. New York did it, so it's the new "10"" (in which case companies will tool up to make 7-round mags for just about everything)

B) "We want the toughest law, so lets go w/ 6 (5, 4, 3...)"

JFrame
January 16, 2013, 10:28 AM
"Logic" and "leftist/statist anti-gun legislator" are contradictions in terms.

I'm sure the number 7 was pulled out of their respective arses. Maybe they thought it was a "lucky" number -- that would at least indicate a vestige of conscious thought.


.

gfanikf
January 16, 2013, 10:36 AM
I see what you did there. :D

Good to know I'm not the only nerd here. :)

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

Archaic
January 16, 2013, 10:39 AM
So my glenfield model 60 .22 just became illegal, as did my Winchester 9422. Nice. I wonder how many crimes are committed in NY each year with tube fed 22 rifles? I'm betting not many.

Solo
January 16, 2013, 10:57 AM
Certainly not D&D ones.
Actually, 7 is the average result of 2d6.

gfanikf
January 16, 2013, 11:01 AM
Actually, 7 is the average result of 2d6.
NERDDDDD!!!!!

Very true though, I was thinking more the full die set.

That said the idea of Anti-Gunners rolling D&D dies is hilarious (even lots of pro gunners did the same thing) since I bet many of them thought it was literally the most evil thing to "protect the children" from back in the 1980s.

WardenWolf
January 16, 2013, 11:02 AM
No, their next move will be to outlaw firearms "that can accept a magazine that exceeds 7 rounds." That will ban almost everything, including 1911's, and require a NY-specific version of every firearm that cannot accept standard magazines.

heeler
January 16, 2013, 11:10 AM
It's clear to me that by limiting magazine capacity to seven rounds all but the micro 9mm's as well as the pocket 380's and 32's semi auto's they have fixed things delibertly where the Glocks,Siggs,XD's,etc. will have to go.
These people crafting this knew damn good and well exactly what they were doing and rammed this through at break neck speed so it could not be debated and was done before the people would find out what these Democrats have foisted upon the New York gun owning people.
You could not melt me down and pour me in that wretched state!!!

ball3006
January 16, 2013, 11:12 AM
New York taxes are about to go way up. Just where are they going to house all these new convicted felons? Oh yeah, they are going to commute the sentence so they just become a felon so the state can take all their guns.....chris3

blarby
January 16, 2013, 11:13 AM
Its because kimber specializes in 1911's.

Kimber is in NY.

Now THATS a conspiracy.

You heard it here first. :D

para.2
January 16, 2013, 11:15 AM
During the run up to this railroa....er, vote, there was some discussion as to the impact on employment in and around Ilion, NY, where Remington makes their R-1/1911 clone. I suspect that's where the "7 rounds" comes from.

armoredman
January 16, 2013, 11:25 AM
WardenWolf, I do believe you have it, and probably state such magazines need to be made in New York, for the business angle.

CoRoMo
January 16, 2013, 11:27 AM
If they went below 7, they would force semi-autos to have a lower capacity than many revolvers like the 8-round .357mag. (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_764974_-1_775660_775655_757896_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y)

These guys often tout their acceptance of handguns like revolvers for self defense and telling the public that they can only carry 8 rounds if it is in a revolver would be a hard sell.

jdh
January 16, 2013, 11:33 AM
The standard 1911 mag has been 8 rounds for years now. What about 8 shot (or more) revolvers?

gfanikf
January 16, 2013, 11:34 AM
The standard 1911 mag has been 8 rounds for years now. What about 8 shot (or more) revolvers?
I want to know how does one in the pipe and seven in the mag fall. I mean when chambered it is not loaded in the mag any more.

breakingcontact
January 16, 2013, 11:47 AM
10/22 wouldn't be allowed to have 10 round mag?

jbrown50
January 16, 2013, 11:55 AM
I think they picked 7 because it's lower than 10 and they wanted to be able to brag about the "most restrictive" gun laws in the country. This gives freedom-hating legislators in other states the cover to say either:

A) "Let's do seven. New York did it, so it's the new "10"" (in which case companies will tool up to make 7-round mags for just about everything)

B) "We want the toughest law, so lets go w/ 6 (5, 4, 3...)"
I agree with that.

There's always been talk of limiting capacity below 10 rounds at those Mayors Against Gun Violence meetings so I think this 7 round ban is mostly one-upmanship. Cuomo and Bloomberg want to have bragging rights to the toughest gun law in the nation. Let's see what O'Malley in Maryland comes up with.

I've been wondering what the Democrats were inevitably going to do to kill their political momentum and this latest AWB push looks like it. They'll never learn. In the years to come they'll suffer again with Congress and also the Presidency.

Ric
January 16, 2013, 02:09 PM
So, I have a S&W 627 that holds 8 rounds.
Is a cylinder a feeding device? Not a magazine.
Speed loaders are feeding devices should they be limited to 7 but a cylinder is a mechanical part of the firearm.

Teachu2
January 16, 2013, 02:22 PM
They are moving incrementally, and didn't think they could get to 5 THIS time.
The eventual target is to get to zero (single shot only, Google California Single Shot Exemption).

blarby
January 16, 2013, 02:32 PM
10/22 wouldn't be allowed to have 10 round mag?

Correct.

It will now be the NY compliant 7/22

redloki
January 16, 2013, 02:37 PM
I would bet money that the fact that one of the largest 1911 manufacturers, Kimber, resides in Yonkers,New York. I am thinking that its possible they had a dog in that fight somewhere, somehow.

EMC45
January 16, 2013, 02:58 PM
What about an 8 shot Garand?......

AZ
January 16, 2013, 03:37 PM
From the articles I have read you actually are not allowed to keep magazines that are capable of holding more than 7 rounds. Politico said the bill 'allows NY residents 1 year to sell their "high capacity" magazines out of state". Apparently after that anyone caught with a magazine holding more than 7 rounds will be charged with a misdemeanor. That is where some of the confusion lies as it appears they are banning any magazine that can hold more than 7 but the law that they'd trie people under is reliant on rounds being in the magazine.:confused:

KenW.
January 16, 2013, 03:39 PM
All you New Yorkers with mag problems could send them to me. We are not playing that game here in the Rockies. Yet...

22-rimfire
January 16, 2013, 03:40 PM
I suspect 7-rounds also reflects Remington's 45 ACP 1911.

Cactus Jack Arizona
January 16, 2013, 04:07 PM
I am unaware of logic being used by gun banners. Logic apparently escapes their superior intellect. :rolleyes:

In the fourth Star Trek movie, as Spock was being reeducated, the computer banks asked him a simple question. Spock was asked how he felt. Being a Vulcan, a species of pure logic, Spock did not understand the question. I submit that when it comes to asking the gun banners what logic they used to come to their conclusions, it is apparent that their answer would be that they do not understand the question. :scrutiny:

chipcom
January 16, 2013, 04:12 PM
Has anyone figured this one out yet? 1911 semi auto handgun magazine? 7-round revolver cylinders? Or was it carefully chosen to make unlawful many or most of the existing detachable magazines?

I don't live in NY, but I understand that they just made my Ruger SR-22P or Mark II/III illegal in its form produced at the factory.
Divide and conquer...don't threaten the legions of 1911 owners and hope that they will stay on the sidelines fat, dumb and happy.

Hokkmike
January 16, 2013, 04:18 PM
Maybe from here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=84ptFVq22PY

Quick Shot xMLx
January 16, 2013, 05:29 PM
7 is closer to 0 than 10 is.

Fryerpower
January 16, 2013, 05:32 PM
You asked "What about the Ruger 10/22...
Pop the follower off and put a stick in the bottom?
Completely ignore the rule?
Drill & put a pop rivet in?


I don't think that will work with the rotary 10 round drum/magazine n the Ruger 10/22.
(I could completely wrong. I've never taken one apart.)

Jim

22-rimfire
January 16, 2013, 05:35 PM
In NY, it will be "legal" to only load your 10-round magazine with 7-rounds for all pre-ban 10-round magazines. How they will determine that one is beyond me.

RockyMtnTactical
January 16, 2013, 05:47 PM
They are smart. They know this makes things incredibly difficult for many manufacturers and now they have to re-tool things, redesign things... and there simply are not many 7 round magazines out there for most designs.

k_dawg
January 16, 2013, 05:59 PM
Kimber sells many firearms with 8 and 9 round magazines.

BHP FAN
January 16, 2013, 06:07 PM
I think it was written by someone with a serious Nagant revolver fetish.

goldie
January 16, 2013, 06:19 PM
I legally bought a 10/22 10 round mag here last year, & im going to continue to use it, & if i have to load 7 rounds, i will,i doubt anyone else at the range will do the same.Can anyone imagine getting arrested for having even 8 rounds in a mag by mistake instead of 7? can this be real ?Boy if thats a crimminal offense that is pretty dam sad...

boatmanschneider
January 16, 2013, 06:26 PM
I sugest all gun manufacturers who start making 7 round magazines paint "I Love New York" In big pink letters on each one.

pat701
January 16, 2013, 07:10 PM
1911's is the reason for 7rds. The reason that they are so pouplar is from the 1994 AWB. Same mag restrictions but on national level.

Lupinus
January 16, 2013, 07:30 PM
Origin of the 7-Round Magazine Limit?
Oh I can think where the magic number originated, but it wouldn't be polite to verbalize my theory :evil:

BHP FAN
January 16, 2013, 08:31 PM
''the 7 round limit is the result of a fetish for Nagant revolvers''...nobody got this? tough crowd.

Justin
January 16, 2013, 08:45 PM
All you New Yorkers with mag problems could send them to me. We are not playing that game here in the Rockies. Yet...

We're playing that game in Colorado for sure.

gym
January 16, 2013, 08:50 PM
I think he counted his fingers. Either that or what grade he was in when he stopped learning.Or he has a new 40 shield, or 45XDS.

Cosmoline
January 16, 2013, 08:52 PM
Maybe Mr Bloomberg owns a .45 cal 1911.

Ding Ding! We have a winner! I can see those guys digging out their own carry pieces to count rounds.

littlebluevette
January 16, 2013, 08:53 PM
Their logic is simple and well thought out which is to eliminate as many guns as possible....

mf-dif
January 16, 2013, 09:02 PM
Time to turn in your pee shooter Glocks and pick up a DEagle. The standard mag for them is 7rds. :D

Trent
January 16, 2013, 09:15 PM
Time to turn in your pee shooter Glocks and pick up a DEagle. The standard mag for them is 7rds. :D

Can't do in NY, Desert eagles were just banned. (too heavy of a firearm, it meets the ban criteria).

Glocks are also banned (meets the criteria of being the same model as a full auto weapon, the Glock 18.)

r1derbike
January 16, 2013, 10:00 PM
Springfield XD-S .45ACP. Mine works nicely with 5 in the magazine, and one in the pipe. Oh, I have 6 mags for it. We don't play that game yet here in AR, and it is what it is.

gym
January 16, 2013, 10:04 PM
I have 3 for the shield and 3 for the xd, all the rest are 10 plus, but can take 10.

Ken70
January 16, 2013, 10:36 PM
They probably looked in the Midway catalog and saw NOBODY makes 7 round mags or smaller. Except for a handful of guns, less than 5% of what's out there.

Matthew Temkin
January 16, 2013, 10:57 PM
Andrew Cuomo once shot off 3 toes with his shotgun and can only count to 7.

Pat M
January 16, 2013, 11:54 PM
I know two guys, one a retired LEO and the other my brother-in-law, who own pre-ban Glock 19s. They have the original 15-round mags that are now banned. They do not own any 10-round mags, which they are now prohibited from purchasing in NY. Unless Glock makes a NY 7-round mag, they are out of luck.

kludge
January 17, 2013, 01:49 AM
Cuz the Garand clip holds 8?

They're not idiots, they know exactly what they're trying to do, they just lie about the reason.

Kiln
January 17, 2013, 03:25 AM
Here's the logic behind the new 7 round limit:

Question: How do we go about making the previously compliant guns already out there illegal?

Answer: Change the legal magazine capacities to a lower number.

There is no other logic behind it.

tomrkba
January 17, 2013, 07:14 PM
They succeeded with a 10 round limit and established that they have to power to dictate the capacity of magazines. They reduced it by 30% with the NYS SAFE Act. This is now solidified in the minds of law makers: they can change capacity at will. What do you want to bet they reduce it to five or six in a few years? Nobody needs a revolver that holds more than five rounds. The average confrontation requires only 2.x rounds, so three should be sufficient...

razorback2003
January 17, 2013, 08:06 PM
Cutting it down to seven makes a lot of handguns not NY Compliant. That is the whole goal is to basically ban most handguns.

justice06rr
January 17, 2013, 08:08 PM
I would speculate it comes from revolvers, shotguns, and 1911's with less than 8rd capacity.

ThorinNNY
January 17, 2013, 08:36 PM
If you own a Savage Mark II,501,504 and 900 series bolt action repeater in .22 or .17 rimfire rifle AND you live in NY State you can buy 5 shot magazine .Therey`re pricey though-$20 +$6 shipping direct from Savage.I found one at a local shop for about $15.00.
Not saying this is an ideal fix, but a 5 shot clip should keep the ______ s ( you fill in the blank )away, at least for a while.

goldie
January 17, 2013, 08:54 PM
7 is the I.Q. of everyone who wrote,voted & put this plan into effect.....

k_dawg
January 17, 2013, 09:59 PM
Actually, 7 is the average result of 2d6.

Not when you include the +2 for my Hard Crome and Ivory grips!

22-rimfire
January 17, 2013, 10:23 PM
Unless Glock makes a NY 7-round mag, they are out of luck.

I believe the Glock 10-round mags will be legal as long as you only load them with seven rounds. However, there is a small item about a gun capable of accepting high capacity magazines as technically you can by 30 or 32 round magazines that will fit into a Glock pistol.

thump_rrr
January 18, 2013, 03:28 AM
The .22 is exempt from the 7 round limit.
By .22 I'm talking rimfire and not .222 or .223.

JHenry
January 18, 2013, 04:59 AM
im betting they made it 7 to exclude one of americas most popular rifles the m1 garand

thump_rrr
January 18, 2013, 07:30 AM
No because the Garand is already an assault weapon under the new legislation since it has a bayonet lug.
Any 1 device now makes it an assault weapon in NY.
Also NY State law permits magazines up to 10 rounds to be used as long as they are not loaded to more than 7 rounds.
That is pure genius right there.

The only thing I didn't see mentioned is if it is legal to permanently pin an existing magazine to 7 rounds as we pin our semi auto rifle magazines to 5 rounds up here.

mgmorden
January 18, 2013, 08:07 AM
I believe the Glock 10-round mags will be legal as long as you only load them with seven rounds. However, there is a small item about a gun capable of accepting high capacity magazines as technically you can by 30 or 32 round magazines that will fit into a Glock pistol.

Well, not only that, but apparently the wording on the legislation apparently may ban the Glock 17 (if not more models).

One of the things that apparently is in there is that any weapon is illegal if it is a semi-auto version of a full-auto weapon. The Glock 17 is identical to a Glock 18 except for the full-auto capability.

As noted by their lack of an exemption for law-enforcement to use magazines greater than 7 rounds, the whole bill was poorly thought out.

22-rimfire
January 18, 2013, 08:16 AM
The NY law is a classic example of politicians rushing the passage of legislation to take advantage of a social situation. I think the NY bill may in fact be unconstitutional.

I didn't see any exemption to rimfire rifles or handguns. It was in the '94 AWB, but that doesn't seem to matter as this is a new law.

junyo
January 18, 2013, 08:25 AM
Question: am I correct in believing that a Cali compliant stock and a plain barrel plus owning a .458 SOCOM upper and a bunch of distinctly marked 7 round .458 SOCOM magazines would make a completely legal NYS "assault weapon"?

Trent
January 18, 2013, 11:12 AM
junyo - no, the source magazine for 458 SOCOM is a 30 round STANAG magazine.

It can still function as a 30 round magazine for .223, even if it can double as a 458 10 round magazine.

(Although it'd be interesting to see an argument in court, if you did not possess a 223 upper, you might have a defense... maybe).

thump_rrr
January 18, 2013, 04:05 PM
Question: am I correct in believing that a Cali compliant stock and a plain barrel plus owning a .458 SOCOM upper and a bunch of distinctly marked 7 round .458 SOCOM magazines would make a completely legal NYS "assault weapon"?
A pistol grip and a detachable magazine makes it an assault rifle so no joy.

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