[Trent]

What I feared would happen has happened.

Let me explain...

The SOLE defense gun owners have is grass roots campaigns, calling representatives, writing letters, e-mailing, and so on. We get no media coverage (that's positive). Meanwhile, the other side has been battering the NRA from every angle, essentially laying the dead bodies of children at their feet and saying "you caused this."

Now, we have gun owners all ranting and raving over some executive orders, which apparently do very little. We're thumping our chests and stomping about saying "See, he can't do anything."

But I urge you to look deeper in to the message delivered today.

The real power behind what Obama did wasn't in those Executive orders.

No. He called upon the American people to mobilize, to call their representatives, to write letters, to bombard their people in Washington to ask "Do you support this?" And if not, "Why?"

This is terrifying.

Why? One might ask.

Because our tactics are now being used against us, WITH the support of the media, WITH the support of the executive office. Obama flat out said "this is all I can do, the rest is up to YOU, America."

Not up to congress. Not up to senators and representatives. Not up to judges or treaties or executive orders.

He just mobilized the average citizen in to, what will become in short order, the largest lobbying group in the country. His message will be repeated on every major news outlet. Every newspaper. Every television set. Every internet site.

YOU are responsible for calling your senators. Your representatives. And demanding action.

No longer will we see what we saw in New York, where one assemblyman said "my staff informed me this morning that we received over 400 calls and e-mails calling for me to vote NO on this assault weapons ban. NO calls were received to support it."

Those days are long gone.

Our voices will get drowned out in the noise, now. Our ONLY tool just got turned against us.

So while you puff your chests and hem and haw on internet forums saying "We won, it's over, he can't do anything else"....

You better start writing letters. Not just a FEW of you.

ALL of you.

Because letters, and calls, and e-mails are going to be pouring in everywhere to support gun control. If your voice isn't heard LOUD today... the next use of your mouth will be to kiss it all away.

As I step down from my little soap box, preaching to the choir here, please let my words sink in. Obama may be many things, but the man is highly intelligent and knows where our weakest links are. He knows where to hit us, HOW to hit us, and he just proved it today.

Never in the history of the United States has any single man been such a threat to continued ownership of arms which give us parity against the state.

Wake up and take action.

/Rant.

[mrvco]

I mentioned it a day or two ago in another thread, but this is why I am FAR more concerned about the 2014 election.

[spandexdonkey]

First time posting here,

I suspect that all of the focus on doctors is to justify that guns of any flavor are a public health problem, then the surgeon general and director of health and human services can declare that the public health problem must be eliminated.

They can outlaw guns through directive of Health and Human Services in the name of lowering healthcare costs.

[CoRoMo]

He just mobilized the average citizen in to, what will become in short order, the largest lobbying group in the country.
GALLUP: Americans far more concerned about economy, debt, unemployment and taxes than guns... (http://www.gallup.com/poll/159830/debt-gov-dysfunction-rise-top-americans-issue-list.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=syndication&utm_content=morelink&utm_term=All%20Gallup%20Headlines)

The average citizen doesn't seem to care so much about this. There is very little motivation in the average citizen to get involved in the gun control debate.

However, we happen to be an extremely motivated, vocal, and involved minority.

[Trent]

Well, spandex, what we're entering in to here is the age of "Thought Police."

Make an internet posting about guns? Anyone who's a Doc can turn you in to the authorities to be investigated.

Casual conversation at dinner about firearms in public? The guy at the table next to you might decide you're a threat and report you.

THIS is the mindset they are going for.

"Anyone who talks about weapons must surely be unstable."

"Anyone who really thinks they're going to get murdered by a criminal, who thinks they need to carry a firearm for self defense, is surely mentally unbalanced"

And so on.

It's a clever plan. New York just passed something similar to this yesterday.

But, that's a longer term danger. The imminent danger is mobilizing thousands of otherwise unconcerned people (I don't own guns/I only hunt, this don't affect me), in to calling their representatives "for the children".

That's potentially millions of voices, more than the pro-gun groups could turn out, because, face it, we're a lazy bunch who has a FEW hard core activists that write a lot of letters. The rest just go to work, come home, and watch it all unfold on Television.

[MErl]

This is a good reminder to keep the heat on. I don't see it as a long term threat though. Something else will come along and distract the people who think "yeah, AWB probably a good idea."

[G21NE]

What I feared would happen has happened.

Let me explain...

The SOLE defense gun owners have is grass roots campaigns, calling representatives, writing letters, e-mailing, and so on. We get no media coverage (that's positive). Meanwhile, the other side has been battering the NRA from every angle, essentially laying the dead bodies of children at their feet and saying "you caused this."

Now, we have gun owners all ranting and raving over some executive orders, which apparently do very little. We're thumping our chests and stomping about saying "See, he can't do anything."

But I urge you to look deeper in to the message delivered today.

The real power behind what Obama did wasn't in those Executive orders.

No. He called upon the American people to mobilize, to call their representatives, to write letters, to bombard their people in Washington to ask "Do you support this?" And if not, "Why?"

This is terrifying.

Why? One might ask.

Because our tactics are now being used against us, WITH the support of the media, WITH the support of the executive office. Obama flat out said "this is all I can do, the rest is up to YOU, America."

Not up to congress. Not up to senators and representatives. Not up to judges or treaties or executive orders.

He just mobilized the average citizen in to, what will become in short order, the largest lobbying group in the country. His message will be repeated on every major news outlet. Every newspaper. Every television set. Every internet site.

YOU are responsible for calling your senators. Your representatives. And demanding action.

No longer will we see what we saw in New York, where one assemblyman said "my staff informed me this morning that we received over 400 calls and e-mails calling for me to vote NO on this assault weapons ban. NO calls were received to support it."

Those days are long gone.

Our voices will get drowned out in the noise, now. Our ONLY tool just got turned against us.

So while you puff your chests and hem and haw on internet forums saying "We won, it's over, he can't do anything else"....

You better start writing letters. Not just a FEW of you.

ALL of you.

Because letters, and calls, and e-mails are going to be pouring in everywhere to support gun control. If your voice isn't heard LOUD today... the next use of your mouth will be to kiss it all away.

As I step down from my little soap box, preaching to the choir here, please let my words sink in. Obama may be many things, but the man is highly intelligent and knows where our weakest links are. He knows where to hit us, HOW to hit us, and he just proved it today.

Never in the history of the United States has any single man been such a threat to continued ownership of arms which give us parity against the state.

Wake up and take action.

/Rant.
"No one" supported the NY ban, yet it still passed.....

[Skribs]

That's why I say I'm not panicing, but we're not out of the woods yet. "I sent a letter in December" isn't enough. Help fund pro-gun groups. Get active in those groups. Send letters, emails, and phone calls. Organize awareness events. Spread propoganda on social media. Respond to news articles (and write your own on opinion sections). Do what you can to make sure Congress doesn't do anything.

The NY ban passed because they rushed it through, ignoring their own public vetting process. Don't let the idea that something can pass regardless of your voice convince you to give up. Because if we give up, we will definitely give them up. I'm going with the lessons from Mad-Eye Moody in Harry Potter: CONSTANT VIGILANCE.

[Wyndage]

Agreed Skribs. I just wrote to my legislators again (third time since Newtown). We need to keep the pressure on Congress.

[G21NE]

originally posted by Trent:
"Anyone who really thinks they're going to get murdered by a criminal, who thinks they need to carry a firearm for self defense, is surely mentally unbalanced"

This argument from the antis is so hypocritical, they make it sound like crazy people with guns carry out mass shootings daily, but still that is no reason for a law abiding, competent citizen to have a gun for self defense. Boggles my mind.

[Skyshot]

We just need to stay the course here. Just keep bombarding those emails and voice mails and what ever kind of media you can voice your opinion with. We have to hold elected officials feet to the fire.

[LubeckTech]

The main question is how loudly will we speak and will we now go to sleep??
IF we as gun owners remain vigilant, keep the pressure up and VOTE progun legislators into office we will stay above the "noise" if we become complacent (which is where today's events could lead) we will get ran over. It was JFK who said the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

[Fryerpower]

The NY ban passed because they rushed it through, ignoring their own public vetting process.

Much like Obamacare?

"We'll just have to pass it to see what is in it!"

Jim

[gym]

I firmlly believe in calling and writing everyone concerned, just remember that the average joe, is not as passionate about these things as we are, just like voting.
Many folks will go back to sleep after a week, we won't.

[gossamer]

That's why I say I'm not panicing, but we're not out of the woods yet. "I sent a letter in December" isn't enough. Help fund pro-gun groups. Get active in those groups. Send letters, emails, and phone calls. Organize awareness events. Spread propoganda on social media. Respond to news articles (and write your own on opinion sections). Do what you can to make sure Congress doesn't do anything.

The NY ban passed because they rushed it through, ignoring their own public vetting process. Don't let the idea that something can pass regardless of your voice convince you to give up. Because if we give up, we will definitely give them up. I'm going with the lessons from Mad-Eye Moody in Harry Potter: CONSTANT VIGILANCE.
Agreed, Skribd. I'm not panicking either. Mostly because every president since the dawn of our republic has had the bully pulpit to rally public opinion. As for this being unprecedented, anyone heard of LBJ? Clinton? Bush I?

The press wasn't backing Clinton's efforts? Really????

As for the other fearfulness about thought police etc. I'm not feeling it.

Writing one letter isn't enough. Stay on your reps. Stay positive. Acting fearful or acting out of fear rarely swings opinion in your direction. Stay positive. Stay rational. Use facts not fear. Or we can suffer the outcome.

[Trent]

Senators in NY voted on their new AW ban just 20 minutes after it was disseminated to them.

They didn't even read it.

[John828]

originally posted by Trent:
"Anyone who really thinks they're going to get murdered by a criminal, who thinks they need to carry a firearm for self defense, is surely mentally unbalanced"

This argument from the antis is so hypocritical, they make it sound like crazy people with guns carry out mass shootings daily, but still that is no reason for a law abiding, competent citizen to have a gun for self defense. Boggles my mind.
Not to mention the fact that it fundamentally contradicts protective service provided by the Secret Service or bodyguards. Is someone who gets or hires protective service mental ill? I think not; therefore, neither is someone who carries for personal protection. The argument is invalid. OTOH, if someone obsesses about it to the point where it becomes an interference to normal daily activities, then, yes, it might be a mental issue. But that goes for any mental obsession.

[Skribs]

I'm not saying that it can't happen, Fryer. I'm just saying that the fact that it CAN happen is not an excuse for us not to be vocal.

[2ifbyC]

As I pause and reflect on the course of events over the past few weeks, my belief in our freedoms and democracy is still intact. We have gone through an emotional rollercoaster and our reasoning was clouded by an attack to a right that we all deeply cherish.

As the smoke clears in yet another skirmish to strip us of our 2A amendment rights, it’s important that we evaluate what transpired.
Each of us will undoubtedly come up with different conclusions. However, the one that most of us should agree on is that our voice was heard. If the POTUS thought he could unilaterally institute new gun laws, he would have. The Obama team read the tea leaves and was reduced to using the bully pulpit as its only means to garner support.

We are in “a never ending battle for truth, justice, and the American way”. We may not have Superman, but we have the NRA and our votes.

Keep the pressure on Congress.

[Pointshoot]

Eric Holder said that they should use 'brainwashing' to shame gunowners, in the same way that smokers are shamed today. This is part of their strategy.
Given the record numbers of gun sales and NICS checks, its seems that a lot of Americans arent buying it.

Another strategy they use is agency level actions and administrative law. If they take away your rights - - - and the bureaucracy & costs make it impossible for you personally to restore them - - - your rights have been taken from you.

Be very cautious about thinking "its not so bad". Its the details that count. Just like with Obamacare - - - the agency regulations can grow to thousands of pages and be filled with all kinds 'surprises' that were hidden from you.

[CharlieDeltaJuliet]

Trent, I agree. Plus the representatives have been placed between a rock and a hard place. If they do nothing, they are likely to get backlash, if they act against gun owners they are likely to get backlash. Remember the media has the ability to spin this too, as they always do. It is likely the bills introduced will have clauses in them that both sides will want(better mental health care), but they will cram a magazine ban or AWB in with it. It will then be all or nothing and with the" hornets nest stirred up", I feel quite a few politicians might buckle with the fear of being stung. Remember, we a a minority as gun owners. Before this there were a lot that were neutral about everything, I fear they are being pulled into this mess, and will be forced to choose sides. While we might gain some, the other side might also...

[Fryerpower]

I'm not saying that it can't happen, Fryer. I'm just saying that the fact that it CAN happen is not an excuse for us not to be vocal.
I absolutely agree and will add to my next round of letters that anything that happens the Obamacare/NYS was is total BS and will not be tolerated.

Jim

[mbt2001]

What is terrifying is that we have a government now that does not listen to the people, they ram through legislation even though the people are against it. They do not even read your letters anymore because of "terrorism / anthrax" concerns. If you write a letter now, they will look at it in 30 days MAYBE, if millions called and brought the phone lines down they say it was calls in support, they do not read e-mails, maybe they read faxes...

Welcome to the new world order.

[Godsgunman]

The whole "for our children" is a sham centered at simple minded baffoons. Throw in those 3 key words and connect them to anything and you can essentially use emotion to try to override logic and common sense. Unfortunately baffoonery is rampant and the latter two aren't there nowadays. If it truly was "for our children" he would be for protecting the Constitution so our children would be able to live in freedom and be able to defend themselves when the time comes. It truly is for my children that I will fight tooth and nail against such an attack on our freedom and liberties. It has nothing to do with guns themselves but everything to do with freedom being taken away by a tyrranical leader. As the vast majority of us on here understand and history has shown, its a vast slippery slope of seemingly benign little victories especially in this specific arena that leads to the eventual oppression of peoples and nations. "For Our Children".

[DammitBoy]

I disagree. I think this was the most dangerous part of his speech today;

"The president directed Attorney General Eric Holder to take a "fresh look" into whether the categories of people prohibited from buying firearms needs to be expanded or updated."

This gives Holder the green light to expand who can be denied from buying firearms. Soldiers returning from combat, people who sought mental health care voluntarily, anyone on the terrorist watch list, anyone on the no fly list, in fact just about anyone.

[Ryanxia]

While I've been doing my part (donating, writing to reps, etc.) on a daily basis it's sad that so much time, effort and money has to go into preserving what's already been granted to us by the Constitution and should automatically shoot down any illegal laws.

[Grassman]

I disagree. I think this was the most dangerous part of his speech today;

"The president directed Attorney General Eric Holder to take a "fresh look" into whether the categories of people prohibited from buying firearms needs to be expanded or updated."

This gives Holder the green light to expand who can be denied from buying firearms. Soldiers returning from combat, people who sought mental health care voluntarily, anyone on the terrorist watch list, anyone on the no fly list, in fact just about anyone.
I'm in none of those categories, and frankly other than the returning soldier, shouldn't have firearms.

[CharlieDeltaJuliet]

Just using Eric Holder and gun rights in the same speech is an oxymoron. I agree that Holder shouldn't be allowed to manage a McDonalds after the F&F debacle. The main thing is not to drop our guard or let up on contacting our representatives. I feel today's speech was more smoke and mirrors, that do not even relate to the true agenda.

[JustinJ]

The SOLE defense gun owners have is grass roots campaigns, calling representatives, writing letters, e-mailing, and so on. We get no media coverage (that's positive). Meanwhile, the other side has been battering the NRA from every angle, essentially laying the dead bodies of children at their feet and saying "you caused this."

What? The NRA is an enormous, very well funded lobbying group with financial support coming from far more than private donations. I'm not criticizing but that premise is completely false.


Seriously though, at what point will those making the false Obama predictions quit? Rather than accept the conspiracy theories about the coming Executive Orders were nonsense people are now trying to spin reality into another end of the world conspiracy. Pundits never get held accountable for their BS predictions so i guess i shouldn't expect accountability for those who follow them either.

[DammitBoy]

I'm in none of those categories, and frankly other than the returning soldier, shouldn't have firearms.

Really? Anybody can be added to those lists with zero evidence. Had a buddy who fought for two years to get his name off of the no fly list, because his name was similar to someone else's name.

Heard of the Patriot Act or the NDAA?

[bigfatdave]

As the smoke clears in yet another skirmish to strip us of our 2A amendment rights, it’s important that we evaluate what transpired.
Each of us will undoubtedly come up with different conclusions. However, the one that most of us should agree on is that our voice was heard. If the POTUS thought he could unilaterally institute new gun laws, he would have. The Obama team read the tea leaves and was reduced to using the bully pulpit as its only means to garner support.

Also the lesson of NY state.

"Compromise" does not stop the enemies of the armed citizen, they are not appeased by "compromise" and will just want more later.
Remember back when 10x mags were "reasonable"? Now 7x mags are "reasonable" ... what's the next "reasonable" number to compromise on?

NO. MORE. COMPROMISES.

[bigfatdave]

Soldiers returning from combat, people who sought mental health care voluntarily, anyone on the terrorist watch list, anyone on the no fly list, in fact just about anyone.
I'm in none of those categories, and frankly other than the returning soldier, shouldn't have firearms. If the no-fly or terror watch lists were transparent and had some kind of quality control, then maybe ... but as it stands those are people that aren't dangerous enough to even do a real investigation on.
The lists are junk, uncontrolled, un-audited, with no oversight. There is nothing to keep you off those lists if some worthless paper-pusher or TSA-level wannabe federal LE puts you on.

Those who seek mental care on their own are generally capable of making their own choices and filtering out good idea / bad idea.
That simply creates another uncontrollable list of people too dangerous to be real citizens, but not dangerous enough to investigate.

And I'll give you a pass, you surely didn't mean to include "just about anyone" as a category of prohibited persons.

[HOWARD J]

I thought Clinton got rid of the armour piercing ammo?
ASSAULT WEAPON: Does that mean any semi-auto center fire & any 22 cal with a mag holding more than 10 rds?

[Kingcreek]

There should no longer be any confusion over what a "community organizer" is and does. He just did it. It's the only thing he has ever done.
But it won't work this time. We are big enough and powerful enough to overcome all of the hype and propaganda and media bias IF we mobilize and motivate against them.

[JBrady555]

GALLUP: Americans far more concerned about economy, debt, unemployment and taxes than guns... (http://www.gallup.com/poll/159830/debt-gov-dysfunction-rise-top-americans-issue-list.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=syndication&utm_content=morelink&utm_term=All%20Gallup%20Headlines)

The average citizen doesn't seem to care so much about this. There is very little motivation in the average citizen to get involved in the gun control debate.

However, we happen to be an extremely motivated, vocal, and involved minority.
I have to agree with this statement. POTUS said many times over the last month about having the people on his side in this debate but the majority of the voices I heard were on our side. We must keep pressure on our elected officials though.

[Skribs]

There are a lot of people on the other side of the debate. The problem is that whenever our side is included, all we come away with is a response from our side saying "they won't listen."

[777TRUTH]

Trent, I think you nailed it.

This is only the beginning, not the end. The media is not gun friendly and will publicize every negative to get the country riled up.

Dig in for the long haul and do not become complacent.

[mbt2001]

I'm in none of those categories, and frankly other than the returning soldier, shouldn't have firearms.

Ever been to marriage counseling? That is therapy turn in your gun...

[22-rimfire]

New legislation will be introduced. Harry Reid has indicated (via Fox News) that he is not going to introduce gun control legislation to the Senate unless he has the votes. I suspect Boehner may do the same thing.

So in many ways, it is up to the American People in the sense that the President wants to mobilize political action to turn likely "No" votes into "Yes" votes when the legislation hits the floor... if it hits the floor.

[chipcom]

this pic should put Obama's speech into perspective

http://img.youtube.com/vi/zDAmPIq29ro/0.jpg

Obama is Kevin Bacon (the guy in uniform)...everyone else is us ;)

(Not pictured: me, playing the role of Bluto)

[DammitBoy]

If the no-fly or terror watch lists were transparent and had some kind of quality control, then maybe ... but as it stands those are people that aren't dangerous enough to even do a real investigation on.
The lists are junk, uncontrolled, un-audited, with no oversight. There is nothing to keep you off those lists if some worthless paper-pusher or TSA-level wannabe federal LE puts you on.

Those who seek mental care on their own are generally capable of making their own choices and filtering out good idea / bad idea.
That simply creates another uncontrollable list of people too dangerous to be real citizens, but not dangerous enough to investigate.

And I'll give you a pass, you surely didn't mean to include "just about anyone" as a category of prohibited persons.

I don't need a pass. Anybody can throw anyone on any of those lists with no oversight, no audits, and no accountability.

Just about anyone could be added. How about a category like, "posts on a gun advocacy forum where some posters foment a call to arms" = terrorist watch list. All recently released soldiers are already on a terrorist watch list.

Who do you think Obama and company would not put on a list?

[Mousegun]

Hope this hasn't been answered or discussed before, I have been out of the loop for a few days but what is the consensus on the AWB as far as grandfathering in goes?

Is it a ban going forward or does it ban us from having and using 30 round mags and our AR's at the range if we already had them?

[bigfatdave]

DammitBoy - it wasn't you I was "giving a pass" - - I was giving grassman the benefit of the doubt that he didn't actually mean to include "just about anyone"

===

Hope this hasn't been answered or discussed before, I have been out of the loop for a few days but what is the consensus on the AWB as far as grandfathering in goes?

Is it a ban going forward or does it ban us from having and using 30 round mags and our AR's at the range if we already had them? the consensus is that speculation is pointless and the crap bill NY passed is available for reading and dissection in a bunch of other threads

[Skribs]

Mousegun, if New York is any indication, it could be bad. They made previously-grandfathered magazines outright illegal, and 8-10 round mags you have 1 year to sell out of state. Can't even load them with more than 7 legally (like that will stop a gangster).

[22-rimfire]

Is it a ban going forward or does it ban us from having and using 30 round mags and our AR's at the range if we already had them?

The only thing that has been done is sign the executive orders. No legislation has been introduced and there are many hoops to jump in both the Senate and House BEFORE the president can sign or veto a passed bill. The President tends to think about ruling his subjects, but the reality is that he has limited power unless their is legislation already passed.

So nothing changes until legislation is PASSED. What the President says does not mean anything other than he is putting the responsibility onto Congress. We need action "right now".

[Trent]

Couple hours in and some sidebar discussions elsewhere... here's what I'm wondering.

From the press release:

o Call for Congress to remove restrictions that require ATF to authorize importation of dangerous weapons simply because of their age.

For the children, he attacks Curios and Relics! How many antique firearms are used in violent crimes!? Seriously, right out the gate he goes after collectors.

THAT certainly isn't about public safety.

It's about restricting small arms that are capable of being used against the government.


o PROTECT POLICE BY GETTING RID OF ARMOR-PIERCING BULLETS:
The President also is calling for legislation to finish the job of getting armor piercing bullets off the streets by prohibiting the possession and transfer of this dangerous ammunition, in addition to its manufacture and import.

* Finish the job of getting armor-piercing bullets off the streets: It is already
illegal to manufacture and import armor-piercing ammunition except for
military or law enforcement use. But it is generally still not illegal to possess or
transfer this dangerous ammunition. Congress should finish the job of
protecting law enforcement and the public by banning the possession of armorpiercing ammunition by, and its transfer to, anyone other than the military and law enforcement.

For the children, let's ban WWII era 30 cal ball ammo because (even though it was built for penetrating aircraft skin and invented decades before the advent of modern body armor) as it represents a clear and present threat to the children's well being.

(As far as the handgun ammo.. has a cop EVER been shot with armor piercing handgun ammo? I mean.. ever?)

Ever?

And since 223, 308, 270 Winchester, 243 Winchester, and every other center-fire cartridge will READILY penetrate soft body armor, are those going to get banned? I could see the uneducated congressmen passing something to that effect.

o Call for Congress to pass new gun trafficking laws, which will impose
serious penalties on those who help get guns into the hands of criminals.

For the children, pave the way to prosecuting gun owners who have safes stolen, cars broken in to, or who sell to a person (despite the universal background check) who 10 years later commits a felony with that firearm as an accessory.



* Helping schools address pervasive violence: Twenty-two percent of 14 to 17 year olds have witnessed a shooting in their lifetime.

Where do they come up with crap like this? I bet 22% of our SOLDIERS haven't witnessed a shooting. Hell, the vast majority go their full careers without ever seeing a round shot in anger, let alone it going through a human being.

* make sure doctors know they can report credible threats of violence by their patients
* A trained professional who concludes that a patient poses a serious threat to himself or others has a duty to report it.

"Hey Jimmy, how you doing. Well, you look nice and healthy. Let me ask you, do your parents have guns?" (THEY ASK THIS NOW). "Well, where are those guns kept? Do you ever feel threatened by them? Does your daddy drink beer or yell at mommy?"


* Make sure dangerous people are prohibited from having guns: The background check system is designed to keep guns out of the hands of those forbidden by law to have them. But we need to make sure our laws are effective at identifying the dangerous or untrustworthy individuals that should not have access to guns.

So... Who decides if you are "untrustworthy"?

And on.. and on.

They're opening the door for a lot of stuff here, which could be abused.

I'm sure the government would NEVER abuse stuff like this.

I mean, they're only after the guns which are capable of giving citizens parity with the average infantry soldier. More people are killed with shotguns and MANY times more people are killed with handguns...

But those military style rifles, they're just so horrible they NEED to go.

Starting with the Antiques.

[gc70]

Several news reports today reflect an interesting dynamic that is developing.

Obama has signed his EOs and says the rest is up to Congress.

Several members of the House have said this is Biden's baby and, since Biden is President of the Senate, the House will wait to see what the Senate does with legislative proposals.

Harry Reid stated over the weekend that he would not waste the Senate's time unless the House passed legislation.

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

For two weeks after Sandy Hook, the other side were posting anti gun stuff then got bored and stopped for the most part. We are still at it as we have far more drive than they do.

[DCoke]

If the President cared one iota about the life of a single child like he says and that he would do everything he could to do so, then he should IMMEDIATELY un-fund Planned Parenthood. Abortion kills more children in a day than all the mass shootings by nutjobs. He is a hypocrite of the most extreme and our guns and 2nd Amendment rights are being infringed upon. Act and contact your State Senators and Representatives. Contact the Speaker of the House. Let every public official you can get ahold of know how you feel. Don't wait for others to lead the way. Do it yourselves and do it today.

[Guvnor]

Hate to say it, but the average American is a dummy with a short attention span more concerned with the next episode of American Idol than they are with the future of our country. I have a feeling that all these lemming anti's that are all fired up about gun bans will eventually lose interest. This is in start contrast to folks like us who understand we must keep constant vigilance, support our organizations, and make sure our voices are heard.

In my opinion i think we are in a much better position than we were a few weeks ago, but we are definitely not out of the woods yet. Keep up the letter writing, and we all NEED to get out there this Saturday, 1/19 and show support.

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I have a feeling that all these lemming anti's that are all fired up about gun bans will eventually lose interest.

For the most part, they already have. The media is trying to keep it going but the sheep aren't all that interested anymore.

[DammitBoy]

Don't get cocky. The obama administration is gearing up his campaign apparatus to start an email campaign amongst the faithful sheep to write their congressmen.

[Trent]

Yup. They'll probably plaster a link right on the White House front page.

"Click here to e-mail your congressman in support of common sense gun regulation. For the children."

[goon]

The email from the administration is already being sent.
I received one today, probably because I have created a couple "We the people" petitions and signed a few.
Some were for pretty liberal causes. Sometimes I'm pretty liberal.
But I'm not an idiot.

[Trent]

The point I'm trying to make with all of this, is in order to introduce social change of any magnitude (particularly one with civil liberties impact that could result in violence), the change must be proceeded with an effective propaganda campaign.

The NRA has not been effective in their propaganda campaign.

They are currently viewed by the masses as an insensitive group which attempts to buy power through campaign contributions and other methods. As an example, they bring the daughter of the president in to play, in their latest media message. One thing I've learned as a father is you don't mess with a guy's daughter. It's one thing to go after the man making the decisions. But to toss his daughter in the limelight, that's not going to go over well, anywhere.

Just as their initial message of "Arm the Schools" (something which was hotly debated on this very board, and MANY of us disagreed with) was received with hostility by the mainstream, so will this. Arming the schools, while ONE step, can't be the only reasonable step. From the anti-gunner's perspective you're putting a man with a pistol up against potential bad guys armed with "assault rifles" with hundreds of rounds of "armor piercing" ammunition in "high capacity clips", wearing "body armor", who have the tactical element of both surprise and superior firepower. A single armed guard isn't going to do diddly squat against even ONE aggressor with a high powered rifle, regardless of type or configuration. The aggressor has the initiative. The defender loses.

People aren't dumb. But the NRA has acted so, and delivered a message that has not been received well by the general public; and even the most staunch pro-gun advocates (like me) are grimacing whenever Pierre opens his mouth to talk now. Every he does, the media has a feeding frenzy.

The propaganda machine on the other side has been effectively following a sound strategy:

#1 marginalize or humiliate the primary opponent (NRA) in every way possible

#2 demand answers for why we need "military style weapons", and dismantle that argument by calling us lunatics when we give the ONLY possible answer (defense of way of life against tyranny).

#3 pull the heartstrings so the unconcerned at least pay attention for a few seconds, to sway the moderates to their side.

#4 call out the most antagonistic gun proponents in to the public light to tear them, and their arguments, down on national news programs

#5 affiliate gun owners by equating them with seditionists, hillbillies, rednecks, or any other offensive stereotype they can. The idea is to tarnish the perspective of gun owners, causing "hunters" and "sportsman" to distance themselves and form a "new mainstream." (I've been called so many offensive names in the last month, debating gun issues, that I've lost track of all the variations.)

#6 expound upon our "gun craze" by covering the buying panic - a situation of our own causing. Prediction: Pretty soon you'll hear about bloodthirsty American gun owners hoarding so much ammunition the police can't even TRAIN their people for this new "school defense response training program" the President has ordered. (I checked SG last night, they're backordered on 223 PMC ammo until MAY. The massive volume of standing backorders has them *5 months back* already.

#7 We have no way to go on the offensive, from a propaganda perspective, without bouncing off the "shield of children" arrayed around the anti-gun community. Anything we say? Bloodthirsty. Anything we do? Bloodthirsty. Any justification we offer? Paranoid, bloodthirsty.

Adolph Hitler had a certain propaganda minister in the Third Reich, went by the name of Dr. Joseph Goebbels. I have Dr. Goebbels diaries in my library, at least, what survived the war. About a year ago I made a significant study of that text, along with Speer, and others. It was gut-wrenching work, delving in to the minds of madmen. Brilliant madmen. Genius in their methods.

In those diaries, combined with an historical understanding of the period, a startling realization hit me with absolute clarity. He who controls the press, controls the truth, because they control the message the people hear. While the government doesn't control the press directly, the "left's" influence on the media is undeniable, as is their slant on the media coverage. (Have you read or seen ONE article on gun control that doesn't mention Sandy Hook in the last month?)

“Whoever can conquer the street will one day conquer the state, for every form of power politics and any dictatorship-run state has its roots in the street.”

Orwell saw this, as well, in his version of a dark utopia. In Nineteen Eighty-Four the population was controlled via through two primary angles; constant fear, and control of information. While Orwell was misguided in his overall vision (to a significant degree, by his own later admission in hindsight), he was spot on with propaganda's role.

They spread the FEAR of guns. Vilify the gun owners as heartless, or lunatics fearing a tyrannical government takeover. Vilify the weapons themselves. Evoke an emotional response by flooding images of black rifles coupled with the words that strike fear in to people.

And they control the information flow in all primary news sources, by both being most vocal, and being emotional, and mitigating any opposition. They use comedy and belittlement and degradation and outright lies to slam our message while standing on the fortress of "FOR. THE. CHILDREN." They bring the easiest targets on TV to dismantle. And they're winning in the battle to get the message out.

That's a tough combo to fight.

[r1derbike]

I'll agree the NRA needs some different mouthpieces shouting their accolades from the mountaintop. I'm disappointed the tack they've been navigating lately. Embarrassed by it, to a degree. I'm wondering what-the-heck they've been up to, as the NRA-ILA updates in my email have been vague, short, and lacking any substance or detailed plan of action. It's as if they are stuck in defensive/personal attack mode, and the geriatrics of that organization haven't helped our causes publicly, but in very few situations.

We all see through the "for the children" smokescreen, but too many ignorant antis do not, and this targets the sheeple. They see utopia and flowers and "I'd like to buy the world a coke" visual images, and we see dictatorial opportunists hell-bent on destroying our 2nd amendment and Constitution, using the corpses of the children at Newtown, and the cute smiling faces of kids to distract from the effluent being spewed by our administration and public media.

It is a tough facade to fight, but I've done my best so far, and will continue to do my best in the coming weeks, to help defeat this tyrannical dictator, and his self-serving government minions. For our children, so they may inherit something but crushing debt, police state, and martial law.

[chevyman097]

The average government teet sucker is too lazy to do the work on their own. They expect him to do it for them.

[JohnBiltz]

Here is the thing, most antis are not one issue voters. At least when it comes to guns. Pro guns people are, particularly when threatened with having to give something up. Gun control has been a third rail for Dems. Touch it and die. My bet right now is that nothing comes out of the senate. If they can't pass one through the House the Senators will not want to be on the record against guns. The longer this goes on the less chance there is anything will happen.

I've heard a lot of disdain for the NRA and its guards in schools, I also heard the President signed a EO about that. So perhaps it was not so crazy. Sure everyone jumped on it at the start. The thing is the more you learned about it the more it turns out it made sense and was being done already on a limited basis.

[KevininPa]

............I don't think Obama wants gun control regulation (for now!). The Sandy Hook shootings are pushing his agenda by a couple of years. I really believe that he didn't want this until after the mid-term elections. My belief is that he wanted this after mid-terms, in the hopes of buying more votes with free gov't crap/bribes and loading the deck with a more liberal house/senate. Gun control issues are now threatening that deck stacking.

If he really wanted to push the gun control issue, he'd be in the lead and putting his face out there if he thought it was going to be a drop in the bucket.

"Look at Me!I'm a winner again! Flock to me!" :barf:

It got passed off to Biden so he can take the fall if this gets ugly. Which it will with our current House. If it gets crappy, Biden and once again the Republican House gets the blame. This is why he passed some EA's. For the most part, all he did was strengthen existing laws. Just enough to appear like he did something, not enough to piss people off. How many posters on this forum said the EA's weren't bad? Picture the results when the nanny's don't get what they want.

" I'm sorry folks, but once again, Congress has blocked our attempts at controlling assault weapons. Joe (Biden) did his best but hit a brick wall. I did what I could at the time, but I was entirely involved in the fiscal crisis. But we can do better after the midterms with a more people friendly Congress.":barf:


That's my take on this anyway. Anyone else see this scenario?

[DammitBoy]

"We're are going to have to wait til after the mid-terms, when I have more flexibility" ~ President Obama

[Trent]

People have short memories, sure.

But there has also never been this much public interest, and we can NOT rely on the past to indicate how the present and future will work out.

"Gun Control"
http://i.imgur.com/gDhgC.png

"Gun Ban"
http://i.imgur.com/z2w3t.png

[Sam1911]

He just mobilized the average citizen in to, what will become in short order, the largest lobbying group in the country. His message will be repeated on every major news outlet. Every newspaper. Every television set. Every internet site.
Hmmm...not seeing more than a handful of the most hysterical types bothering to call or write in about an issue they really don't care that passionately about.

We, on the other hand, are in a froth over this because it directly affects every single one of us. There's no WAY the President has mobilized anything like a fraction of the number of folks on "his" side that he has mobilized on OURS!

[Skribs]

Trent...

#1, I agree. We've seen some videos recently of people debating with anti-gun hosts and doing a good job. We need one of these calm, rational debaters to be our front-man. We need to groom someone to be our front-man, not because "he's NRA", but because we need someone to lead the propoganda assault.

#2, there are other reasons. The simple fact (as I've said in other threads) is that features that make a weapon good for self defense also make them attractive for mass murderers. However, restricting those features (if possible to make the criminal follow those restrictions) will do more to hinder a "prepared enough" citizen than it will to a determined attacker.

#3, we should be doing the same, and I think we are. The problem is both sides are polar opposites and it's like arguing "yes he did" "no he didn't". Our position: guns in the hands of parents and teachers protects kids. Their position: guns kill kids. Both are true. I'd rather parents be able to protect their kids, personally.

#4 is a reality we can't escape. To the fence-sitter, the craziest anti will not be seen as someone likely to snap and kill everyone with their guns.

#5, I haven't really been called any of those, but I avoid the topic at work (mainly because the person who sits next to me is a raging anti who has said flat out she hates guns and doesn't care if her facts are wrong). I do see this on the forums a lot, though, and it's something we need to work to correct.

#6, we should be doing the same, showing how sales in December 2012 doubling those of total 2011 shows that most American gun owners fear a ban, meaning we do not want a ban.

#7, sure we do. Show kids safely shooting guns. Show statistics which show how often kids have been saved by a gun owner. Show statistics on would-be-mass-shootings stopped by gun owners. Show stories where kids age 10-15 have used guns in home defense while their parent was away (quite often a brother or sister defending sisters). Show how the idea that guns and children only mix in accidents and sprees is fallacious.

You are right. We need to do better. But with the exception of one (making the crazies look bad) we totally have arguments for what they're trying to say. We just need someone calm and collected leading the charge.

[Trent]

Something to add to the thread:

http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/28/16726913-obama-campaign-gives-database-of-millions-of-supporters-to-new-advocacy-group?lite


President Barack Obama’s presidential campaign has turned over its most valuable asset — a massive computer database containing personal data on millions of American voters — to a new advocacy group created to advance the White House agenda on issues ranging from gun control to immigration reform.