Federal Background=Confiscation List


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InkEd
January 16, 2013, 05:43 PM
I see zero benefit of providing the federal government a list of potential firearm owners other than to give them a reference for future confiscation!

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Nico Testosteros
January 16, 2013, 05:52 PM
Man, you are paranoid.

You would prefer there be no background checks, I take it ?
That's a pretty fringe position.
You'd rather felons be able to walk into any gun store and purchase one?
I realize guns can be stolen or purchased privately ( at least for now) by criminals but come on.

You have to be trolling.

boatmanschneider
January 16, 2013, 06:08 PM
Non violent felons?

As in some guy who stole a box of Ipads? Or was caught with too much weed?

Once a list of owners is in the hands of a government the laws can change.

What will be a felony next? Hate Speech? Membership of certain organizations?

10mm Mike
January 17, 2013, 10:59 AM
You would prefer there be no background checks, I take it ?

I don't know about the OP, but I would certainly prefer that there were no background checks.

That's a pretty fringe position.

That's your opinion. Have any data to back it up?

You'd rather felons be able to walk into any gun store and purchase one?

Yes. Assuming they were released from prison, rather than escaped, then they have served their time and all rights should be restored in full. If they are that big of a danger, then they should either still be in prison or they should be dead. Simple as that.

gym
January 17, 2013, 11:09 AM
Mike I have to disagree, even though I consider myself to be an advocate of gun rights for everyone.
Until the day comes when they stop early releases on violent felons who have 30 arrests, "could be any number from 1-100", you can't give certain types of violent individuals guns.
In interviews done in prison with "hard cases", they openlly said that they would go back to doing what they did before, including violent crimes with guns. Each case has to be decided on it's own merit, and we have had endless conversations here that went on for weeks on this issue.
There is no bureau that could decide who gets a gun after a violent offender is released form jail. It would cost money that the state and federal government just doesn't have.
Once you shoot someone during the commision of a crime or kill an ex wife, or anything that shows that you can't control yourself adequately to function in society, then you lose your rights.
Otherwise we will have shoot outs even more frequentlly than we now have, imagine letting all the guys in IMAX out and giving them AR's. that would be a movie like escape from New York, it would be very bad.

sansone
January 17, 2013, 11:10 AM
I can tell you here in FL the background check info automatically deletes from the LE computer after the customer is approved

SoCalNoMore
January 17, 2013, 11:11 AM
If there were no way for anyone to know if an outside army was in the US and stockpiling arms, I think that would be an issue.

Think about the law that was created after the OKC bombing for ammonium nitrate.

I personally dont see how a registration will help, crooks will always have a way to get a weapon if they really want to.

Walkalong
January 17, 2013, 11:49 AM
This went from registration to background checks. They are not the same thing. Why say someone wants no checks and wants criminals to be able to walk in and buy guns when all they said was they did not want registration. Buying through an FFL and doing the paperwork is not registration. That info is not collected and put in a registration database. The antis want it to be saved to a central data base for registration, but is isn't that way right now.

P5 Guy
January 17, 2013, 12:26 PM
Ever try to completely delete files from your hard drive? Digital information is pretty much forever and background checks are digital info.

USAF_Vet
January 17, 2013, 12:29 PM
People have been registering firearms with the Feds since 1934. And not just any weapons, 'dangerous' weapons that are fully automatic or have short barrels or large bore diameters.

How many of those have been confiscated? Don't you think if it were so easy to confiscate weapons, they would start with the NFA registry?

mike_charlie
January 17, 2013, 12:39 PM
Ever try to completely delete files from your hard drive? Digital information is pretty much forever and background checks are digital info.

Not true. Data that is deleted, for the most part, is gone. Persistent data after deletion was more of a problem years ago on lower density magnetic storage media. If you want to be paranoid, go ahead and question whether they actually delete it. If it's deleted, however, it's deleted.

I realize I'm arguing semantics but the distinction is important.

StrutStopper
January 17, 2013, 01:16 PM
P5 Guy, you can scrub your hard drive's empty space to completely erase things with a program like BC-Wipe. Just deleting a file won't cut it. All deleting does is to erase the file name so that portion of the drive can be overwritten.

Regarding the topic at hand, A FFL who happens to be an officer at one of the sportsmans clubs I belong to said at the last meeting that he got a visit from the feds who proceeded to take pictures of his books. Now that right there tells me they are preparing for potential confiscation... Has anyone else heard of FFLs books being photographed??

Clean97GTI
January 17, 2013, 01:42 PM
StrutStopper,

a picture may simply be an easier way to verify the bound books are present, intact and being used than impounding the books for further investigation.
Hard to say without a more complete picture of what happened. Hearsay twice removed over the interwebs is not all that reliable.

freyasman
January 17, 2013, 01:53 PM
I'm not sure that background checks on every sale (including private ones) are a bad thing, per se.... I just want to know EXACTLY what gets a person denied. Right now, I know what the standard is.... but what does the Gov't WANT it to be? I remember crazy stories about the "no fly" list, and it makes me wonder.

mcdonl
January 17, 2013, 02:51 PM
Am I wrong to assume that every gun we have ever purchased through an FFL has a record of it somewhere on some FBI computer?

They already have their registration.

rcmodel
January 17, 2013, 02:58 PM
Am I wrong to assume that every gun we have ever purchased through an FFL has a record of it somewhere on some FBI computer?Yes, you are wrong.

The Form 4473 backround check you and the dealer complete makes no mention of the make, model, or serial number of the firearm you are buying.

The only mention of the firearm in question is three check boxes on the Form 4473 is "Handgun", "Long gun" or "other"

The only copy of the form you fill out must be kept on file by the FFL dealer you bought the gun from.
That and the sales receipt is all there is.

rc

mcdonl
January 17, 2013, 03:18 PM
Hey... RC... Can you believe it, I was misinformed :)

Thanks!!

c4v3man
January 17, 2013, 03:20 PM
Irregardless of whether or not the form must be filled out to completion (I would assume it would, but you know what they say about assumptions), there absolutely should in no way be a section for Manufacturer, Model, Serial, Type, and Caliber on form 4473 page 3, which there is currently. There is no reason for that field to be on the form... either you're safe to buy a firearm, or you're not.
http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

j.kramer
January 17, 2013, 03:25 PM
Ever try to completely delete files from your hard drive?

yes i do it everyday

nothing to it

10mm Mike
January 17, 2013, 03:27 PM
Until the day comes when they stop early releases on violent felons who have 30 arrests, "could be any number from 1-100", you can't give certain types of violent individuals guns.
In interviews done in prison with "hard cases", they openlly said that they would go back to doing what they did before, including violent crimes with guns. Each case has to be decided on it's own merit, and we have had endless conversations here that went on for weeks on this issue.

I agree, but that is more of a discussion about the disfunctional criminal justice system, rather than the 2nd amendment. And as you said, it has been debated at length here before.

Felon issue aside, the reason I oppose background checks (from FFL's, as well as from individuals) is because it is making you prove your innocence before you can go about exercising your constitutionally protected rights. If you are denied, you are not given a reason why, and then the burden is on you to make the government to get their information straight so you can make a purchase... which is none of their business in the first place.

If they had a system of voluntary background checks with no cost associated (with no incentive for, or against) that would be different. Then it would be up to the people making the transaction to decide.

radiotom
January 17, 2013, 03:37 PM
When you "delete" a file all that happens is the file is simply marked at the beginning of the data on the hard drive as deleted and the operating system then ignores the file. It is not really deleted until it is overwritten and even then the FBI has equipment that can figure out what was previously there. To REALLY delete a file you would have to overwrite the drive a few times with random bits....or grind the platters to dust.

10mm Mike
January 17, 2013, 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by P5 Guy
Ever try to completely delete files from your hard drive?
yes i do it everyday

nothing to it

unless your hard drive is practically full, it would take less than 30 minutes for a 3rd year computer science student to recover that file. The only practical way to remove a single file from a hard drive is for it to be overwritten with other data, which is extremely unlikely to happen unless there is very limited space left on the drive.

*edited because radiotom beat me to the punch with a better explanation

Vector
January 17, 2013, 03:49 PM
People have been registering firearms with the Feds since 1934. And not just any weapons, 'dangerous' weapons that are fully automatic or have short barrels or large bore diameters.

How many of those have been confiscated? Don't you think if it were so easy to confiscate weapons, they would start with the NFA registry?

What makes you think they wont? Just because it has not happened here yet, doesn't mean it wont. Just look at other countries that went from national registration to confiscation/mandatory turn ins.

As another poster pointed out, the background check in Florida is not registration, and if I am not mistaken, the info must be purged/destroyed within a certain period of time after the approval goes through.

That seems more than reasonable to me.

Ryanxia
January 17, 2013, 04:33 PM
Well said 10mm Mike.

freyasman
January 18, 2013, 09:06 AM
I have never had any problem passing a background check, but like 10mm Mike said, it is inappropriate to have to PROVE I can. This is the same reason why I don't like being asked for ID by LEO's when they have no "suspicion" that a crime has been commited. Do I have anything to hide? No.... but its a boundary issue.

Zeke/PA
January 18, 2013, 09:23 AM
I've used the form 4473 in recent discussions recently and I CAN get my point across.
A hole bunch of stuff was banned in 1934 and then again in 1968.
It really irks me to realize our elected "offiicals" are just as mis-informed as the news media when it comes to what corrent restrictions are.
I heard a guy the other night ask, "What does anybody need a Bazooka for"?

Clean97GTI
January 18, 2013, 01:03 PM
Just in case anyone wanted to know, the DoD used to be OK with a 7-pass overwrite of random bits. This is no longer the case and only degaussing and/or physical destruction is acceptable.

A program like DBAN will allow you to use multiple types of overwrites to sanitize a drive. Be aware that a large hard drive can take hours and hours to clean up. If you don't have that kind of time, physical destruction is usually the cheapest and most fun. Buckshot makes short work of a hard drive.

http://www.dban.org/download for the CD-R image if you want to play.

More fun might be to smelt the drive. If you can get a good hot coal bed going, the metals in the drive undergo a couple cool changes. Charcoal is good for this.
First up happens when you reach the red hot point. The molecular structure of the metal actually relaxes and realigns thus destroying any previous magnetic orientation. Second, the metals continue to get hot to the point where you can deform them or rip them apart. For extra fun, get the metal as hot as you can and drop it in a tub of ice water. Stand back though!

P5 Guy
January 18, 2013, 05:25 PM
So, Where do the files (011001010) go when they "delete" them. I'm not up on computer science so go easy on the paranoid diagnosis.

PRM
January 18, 2013, 05:58 PM
I'm against it. Some things are not any of the government's business.

If I want to swap guns with my shooting/hunting buddy, or transfer a firearm to one of my kids, it shouldn't be up to the government to approve it.

There is noting the POTUS wants done that would have prevented anything. It will spend a half billion ($500 million) tax payer dollars that somebody has to pay for.

And, your right, I don't trust the alphabet federals in any way, shape, form, or fashion. Ever deal with the IRS? Its up to you to prove your in compliance, and they have no problems taking everything you got.

The founding fathers gave us the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to protect us from government. Not to empower government to oppress the people.

StrutStopper
January 18, 2013, 06:12 PM
Thats the problem with deleting. They don't go anywhere. They just stay there and if you know what you're doing they can be recovered unless they are over-written. There is software that can be used to overwrite the disks to make the deleted files un-recoverable, and unless something like that is used or the disk gets completely overwritten over time files can be recovered.

Clean97GTI - As far as I know, the DoD still allows disks to be over-written to de-classify them for re-use but yes, if they are being disposed of physical destruction (hammer) or degaussing is required.

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