Background check question


PDA






Javelin377
January 17, 2013, 12:27 PM
When you fill out a 4473 to purchase a, let's just say, a 10/22; how long does that information stay out there? Meaning how long does XXX agency know that you own said firearm?

If you enjoyed reading about "Background check question" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Midnight Oil
January 17, 2013, 12:30 PM
i may be wrong about this, but it's just the place where you purchased the 10/22 from that retains the record for what you bought. the store calls in with your information of the 4473 and just finds out if your background checks out.

45_auto
January 17, 2013, 12:32 PM
The dealer is required to hold onto the 4473 for 20 years, then they can be destroyed. If the dealer goes out of business, the 4473's are turned over to the ATF.

Your NICS info that was sent in for the background check is supposed to be destroyed within 90 days.

I would be very surprised if there were not backup copies of files out there much older than 90 days that have not been destroyed.

skeeziks
January 17, 2013, 12:34 PM
"Your NICS info that was sent in for the background check is supposed to be destroyed within 90 days."

But it's not....

dogtown tom
January 17, 2013, 12:56 PM
45_auto .....Your NICS info that was sent in for the background check is supposed to be destroyed within 90 days....
Federal law requires the FBI NICS to delete NICS transaction information at the close of their business day....not after ninety days. The exceptions are DELAYED transactions that will be deleted after the status changes to PROCEED. DENIED transactions are kept permanently.

skeeziks "Your NICS info that was sent in for the background check is supposed to be destroyed within 90 days."

But it's not....
You got a source for this conspiracy theory?:scrutiny:

Dr. Sandman
January 17, 2013, 01:01 PM
You got a source for this conspiracy theory?
Not a source, but how are they able to "trace the gun back to such and such store and find out who the owner is" when guns are used in crimes. I totally believe that they keep the information.

morcey2
January 17, 2013, 01:12 PM
Not a source, but how are they able to "trace the gun back to such and such store and find out who the owner is" when guns are used in crimes. I totally believe that they keep the information.
They usually get that from the other direction. They go to the mfg with the serial number and see who the retailer was.

dogtown tom
January 17, 2013, 01:44 PM
Dr. Sandman Quote:
You got a source for this conspiracy theory?
Not a source, but how are they able to "trace the gun back to such and such store and find out who the owner is" when guns are used in crimes. I totally believe that they keep the information.
You are confusing an FBI NICS background check with a wholly different animal.

In a NICS check the dealer only gives the following information to the FBI:
Name
Place of Birth
Height
Weight
Gender
Birthdate
Social Security Number (optional)
Ethnicity
Race
State of Residency
Country of Citizenship
Type of Firearm (handgun, long gun, other firearm)

Note that the manufacturer, model, caliber and serial number are NOT given to the FBI. The FBI doesn't know if you are buying a pistol or revolver if "Handgun" nor would they be told if you are getting an Evil Black Rifle with high capacity magazine clips.....or a .410 shotgun if its a "Long Gun".

so the idea that the FBI NICS knows what you are getting is pretty damn funny.

When a firearm is recovered at a crime scene, the local PD will submit the firearm manufacturer, model, serial# and caliber to the ATF National Tracing Center. The NTC will then contact as many licensees (manufacturer>distributor>dealer) as needed until they reach the first transfer to a NONlicensee...the retail customer (who filled out the 4473). Your local dealer will then research his records to find that firearm (he has 24hours to do so) and then faxes the 4473 to the NTC.

If that first retail customer no longer has the gun, ie. subsequently sold/traded/stolen/etc........the trace most likely ends.

skeeziks
January 17, 2013, 01:47 PM
"You got a source for this conspiracy theory?"

No.... you got any proof that they ARE destroyed?

"so the idea that the FBI NICS knows what you are getting is pretty damn funny."

I never said they knew exactly what we were purchasing. But they do know you are trying to purchase a modern firearm.

dogtown tom
January 17, 2013, 01:54 PM
skeeziks "You got a source for this conspiracy theory?"

No.... you got any proof that they ARE destroyed?
Your theory....so YOU need to provide the proof.
BTW...in the very early days the FBI failed to erase info and Congress stomped them for it.

if you say the moon is made of cheese be prepared to be asked for proof....and its pretty doubtful you have any.:rolleyes:


"so the idea that the FBI NICS knows what you are getting is pretty damn funny."

I never said they knew exactly what we were purchasing. But they do know you are trying to purchase a modern firearm.
Uh, nope.
They don't know if its a 1890's Colt Single Action Army revolver or an FN FiveSeven pistol.......if you actually read anything above you would know that all the FBI NICS is told is "handgun".

tarosean
January 17, 2013, 02:01 PM
No.... you got any proof that they ARE destroyed?

Proof enough?

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/general-information/fact-sheet

Privacy and Security of NICS Information

The privacy and security of the information in the NICS is of great importance. In October 1998, the Attorney General published regulations on the privacy and security of NICS information, including the proper and official use of this information. These regulations are available on the NICS website. Data stored in the NICS is documented federal data and access to that information is restricted to agencies authorized by the FBI. Extensive measures are taken to ensure the security and integrity of the system information and agency use. The NICS is not to be used to establish a federal firearm registry; information about an inquiry resulting in an allowed transfer is destroyed in accordance with NICS regulations. Current destruction of NICS records became effective when a final rule was published by the Department of Justice in The Federal Register, outlining the following changes. Per Title 28, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 25.9(b)(1), (2), and (3), the NICS Section must destroy all identifying information on allowed transactions prior to the start of the next NICS operational day. If a potential purchaser is delayed or denied a firearm and successfully appeals the decision, the NICS Section cannot retain a record of the overturned appeal. If the record is not able to be updated, the purchaser continues to be denied or delayed, and if that individual appeals the decision, the documentation must be resubmitted on every subsequent purchase. For this reason, the Voluntary Appeal File (VAF) has been established. This process permits applicants to request that the NICS maintain information about themselves in the VAF to prevent future denials or extended delays of a firearm transfer. (See VAF Section below.)

skeeziks
January 17, 2013, 02:02 PM
I guess I shouldn't have confused things for you by inserting the word "Modern."

~ But they do know that you are purchasing a firearm.... Better?

erichtmobile
January 17, 2013, 02:23 PM
Look up the case

National Rifle Association vs. Janet Reno

The FBI admited that they do not destroy nics records in direct violation of several federal laws

You think these govt turds follow the rules.....nope

Isaac-1
January 17, 2013, 02:24 PM
Hmm I wonder how they limit people in border states to a maximum of 2 guns every 5 days if not through NICS.

tarosean
January 17, 2013, 02:32 PM
Look up the case

National Rifle Association vs. Janet Reno

The FBI admited that they do not destroy nics records in direct violation of several federal laws


Reno was out of office before they implemented the 24hr deletion.
Who knows...
its not like the gov doesn't know my same SSN and birthdate..

dogtown tom
January 17, 2013, 03:50 PM
Isaac-1 Hmm I wonder how they limit people in border states to a maximum of 2 guns every 5 days if not through NICS.
There is no such law.

Where do you get such nonsense?:rolleyes:

dogtown tom
January 17, 2013, 03:53 PM
skeeziks I guess I shouldn't have confused things for you by inserting the word "Modern."

~ But they do know that you are purchasing a firearm.... Better?
I'm not confused in the least.
Of course "they do know" your getting gun..........what the heck do you think the purpose of a 4473 and NICS is for.....buying tires?

Good grief man.

CLP
January 17, 2013, 03:57 PM
but just by virtue of the FFL having to maintain the records for 20yrs there's a de facto gun registry already... i don't think it matters whether the record indicates the firearm is merely a long gun or hand gun...

zoom6zoom
January 17, 2013, 04:01 PM
They don't know if its a 1890's Colt Single Action Army revolver or an FN FiveSeven pistol..
Well, if we're gonna nitpick, the Colt wouldn't require a 4473, being in the "antique" category.

Birch Knoll
January 17, 2013, 04:34 PM
Actually, they don't really "know" for sure that you've bought a gun at all. They know that a background check was performed for a prospective transfer, but sometimes the transfer doesn't happen for some reason -- the customer changes his mind, or maybe he forgot his wallet or his credit card won't authorize, or maybe the FFL decides not to go through with the sale for some reason.

Of course, most background checks do result in a transfer. But the FBI has no way of knowing which ones.

Mauserguy
January 17, 2013, 04:48 PM
I'm in California and I have a story about the California handgun registry. Some years ago I was out in the desert shooting when up rolled a BLM ranger. She called in all my guns to her office who was on the phone with the state attorney general's office. They pulled up the guns registered to me and started naming guns I don't own. I objected and she told me that there are many errors in the database. Basically, I've got guns registered to me that I never owned, and, presumably, somebody else is out there with guns that are not registered to them at all. Basically, if the government can f... it up, they will.
Mauserguy

Loc n Load
January 17, 2013, 06:44 PM
I think there is a lot we don't know abt where our gun information goes. If you followed the story of the ex con (murderer) in NY that set the house on fire, then killed first responders. The authorities vowed to "trace that AR back to the day it was manufactured". Turns out a neighbor bought the gun in a straw purchase for the ex con. She was arrested.

rcmodel
January 17, 2013, 06:48 PM
The point is though, that the info is not on a computer in Washington.

ATF comes in and paws through a FFL's bound books to find a specific gun they are looking to trace back.

I have a close friend who is an FFL and it has happened more then once to him.

But it's not something they normally do unless they have to find out who purchased a weapon used in a crime for some reason.

And they certainly do not make copies of every gun sale in the bound books.

rc

mgkdrgn
January 17, 2013, 08:06 PM
Not a source, but how are they able to "trace the gun back to such and such store and find out who the owner is" when guns are used in crimes. I totally believe that they keep the information.
However, there is no way to use "background information check data" to trace a gun.

why?

because there is no mention of the gun, other than to say "handgun or long gun", in the data that is used for the background check.

mgkdrgn
January 17, 2013, 08:08 PM
Hmm I wonder how they limit people in border states to a maximum of 2 guns every 5 days if not through NICS.
What?

Where did you dig up that bovine scat?

mgkdrgn
January 17, 2013, 08:11 PM
but just by virtue of the FFL having to maintain the records for 20yrs there's a de facto gun registry already... i don't think it matters whether the record indicates the firearm is merely a long gun or hand gun...
IF you want to consider 17,000 piles of 20 year old hand-written records a "registry", you go right ahead. It -is- data, but is far from useful information.

mgkdrgn
January 17, 2013, 08:15 PM
I think there is a lot we don't know abt where our gun information goes. If you followed the story of the ex con (murderer) in NY that set the house on fire, then killed first responders. The authorities vowed to "trace that AR back to the day it was manufactured". Turns out a neighbor bought the gun in a straw purchase for the ex con. She was arrested.
And here is exactly how that worked:

Mfg and serial number taken from the gun. Call the MFG and ask what distributor it went to.
Call to the distributor, what dealer did it go to.
Call to the dealer, who did you sell it to.

But note that all the "data" resided with the sellers .. not the FBI/ATF/NICS or any other alphabet soup government agency.

And, if at any point that rifle had been privately sold, the trail would go stone dead there.

If you enjoyed reading about "Background check question" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!