Savage Accuracy fact or myth?


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dubbleA
January 17, 2013, 02:21 PM
From reading recent threads here, there appears to be alot of Savage shooters here, stating the most accurate out of the box rifle made today.

Well here's your chance to show off a little. I feel accuracy claims should be done with multiple groups, a single random 3 or 5 shot cherry picked group dosent cut it.

Here are the rules:


Factory/stock rifles
Centerfire only, 100 yds
Three or more 5 shot groups shot on the same target face.
Impact should be no more than 1 inch from center of bullseye.

This will show consistancy along with accuracy and throw out the occasional "wow" group.

I call real life repeatable accuracy.

I'll start with one....a 10Fp 308
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f268/dubbleA/Targets/MeasuredSavageGroup.jpg

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TNBilly
January 17, 2013, 03:30 PM
Every rifle is an individual for starters..... if Savage is more accurate than others I would say it's only more so than rifles that are not up to the more or less accepted standard nowadays. Standards of machining are pretty good today IMO

jmr40
January 17, 2013, 04:37 PM
Based on my experience I'd say that on average Savage is no more accurate than any other rifle. I'm talking about sporter weight hunting rifles, not target guns. That is another discussion that I've less experience with. I've owned several, shot several more. All were good, none exceptional. I've owned some exceptionally accurate rifles, made by other makers. I've also seen some pretty bad examples from other companies.

The myth of Savage accuracy comes from 2 places in my experience. Savage rifles started as budget guns that were mostly purchased by newer, less experienced shooters. Lots of these guys were easily impressed. I've seen threads running at the same time where a Savage owner was bragging about how acccurate his new rifle was. A new Remington shooter was complaining of poor accuracy. When pressed for details both guns were shooting very comparable groups. It is about perception.

The 2nd part is very real. Because of it's design, a Savage rifle does not require nearly as much precision machining to be accurate. For this reason you will almost never find a Savage that is a poor shooter. I'm sure there have been lots of guys who had a bad experince with a Ruger, Remington, Winchester, Weatherby, or whatever that was a lemon. When they pick up a decent shooting Savage they are very pleased.

With the more traditional gun designs it is easy to screw things up and get a really poor shooting rifle. But as long as you are using quality parts and get them screwed together straight any of the other rifles will be at least as accurate.

Not intended as Savage bashing. But a lot of guys automatically say that a Savage is more accurate than other brands. That has not been my experience, but I do think it is fair to say that you are more likely to get an accurate rifle with a Savage, and less likely to get a poor shooter. I don't think buying a Savage is a guarantee of the MOST accurate rifle though.

Steel Horse Rider
January 17, 2013, 04:43 PM
I don't know if Savage barrels are any better than the other manufacturers but in my case the Accutrigger went a long way in making me a better shooter overall because it was the finest trigger I had used to that point. I formerly was of the mind that trigger pull weight was not having an impact on my shooting. The Savage Accutrigger illustrated otherwise.

brnmw
January 17, 2013, 04:51 PM
Personally I think they make really good guns but I would not say they are really that more accurate... I also don't really have any proof either, just in my experience shooting them.

jmr40
January 17, 2013, 04:53 PM
It took me a few minutes to dig up some photo's from Photobucket. Here are a couple of 3 shot groups from a Remington Mt rifle.

http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m513/jmr40/014.jpg

I realise this doesn't exactly fit into your criteria, but are some photos of groups I have from a couple of my Winchesters and a Kimber. The Kimber group is admitedly not typical, but the others are. From light weight hunting rifle such as Winchester Featherweight's, Kimbers and Remington Mt rifles this is more than acceptable. A Savage target rifle may well beat it, but I've not found a Savage sporter that will beat these.

http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m513/jmr40/012.jpg

Here are a few from 200 yards.

http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m513/jmr40/011.jpg

And a typical Ruger Hawkeye at both 100 and 200.

http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m513/jmr40/013.jpg

blarby
January 17, 2013, 04:59 PM
Given that none of the firearms mentioned are competition grade rifles, I fail to see what benefit is gained or actually applied by discussing and photographing the differences perceived in pursuit of sub moa groups from benchrested hunting grade rifles.

With that said, your groups look great and are no doubt the result of carefully applied handloading techniques- for which you should be notably applauded.

I will say that unless you are preparing to hunt oreo cookies from a bench during hunting season, the effort is perhaps.... misdirected.

The groups offered by any 1" or perhaps sub-moa rifle as you demonstrated are more than acceptable for taking any game I can imagine- from rockchucks to bull moose, and are commonly available from nearly any production rifle- as has been previously mentioned.


What is the stated purpose of this rifle ? IF you are considering accuracy competition- you are going to need a better gun.

If this is primarily a hunting rifle- you did the hard part. The groups are indeed impressive enough to boast- now pick the gun up off the bag and begin to simulate hunting shots with it.

For the record- I'd say most savage rifles with an accutrigger are remarkably accurate.

I would also say no more nor less accurate than my ruger II with the factory two-stage trigger, given the same care and evaluation in handloading from a bencrest at 100 yards.

urbaneruralite
January 17, 2013, 05:09 PM
I have a .260, a 7mm08 and a .30/06 from Savage. The /06 does 3-shots into 1/2" in stock configuration with basic grade factory ammo. The other two needed work to beat 1.5" at 100. It's good for a rifle based on a clunky action assembled from mass-produced parts, but it's nothing to get excited over.

Kachok
January 17, 2013, 05:20 PM
Savages are good but picky, I own and handload for several of them, and they all are fussy about what they like to shoot, that does not bother me though because every one of them likes at leased one of my go to bullets (SSTs, Serria Game Kings, Speer BTSP or Nosler Ballistic Tips.) So long as they shoot one of those into tiny little groups I am happy with the rifle.

sixgunner455
January 17, 2013, 05:35 PM
jmr40 - Savage may sell a lot of budget/value-priced rifles, but they certainly did not start out doing that as their primary business model.

The Savage 99 has a great reputation for accuracy, too, and it is certainly not a "clunky action made from mass-produced parts."

Cee Zee
January 17, 2013, 07:28 PM
2 places in my experience. Savage rifles started as budget guns that were mostly purchased by newer, less experienced shooters.

+1 on that. Savage has a long history of making firearms that extends well back beyond the 80's and 90's when Savages were seen as budget hunting rifles with accuracy. For an example I have a Stevens 15-A, single shot .22 from the early 1950's. It is very accurate. There was a thread about those very rifles on Rimfire Central not too long ago (I think that's where it was) where people talked about having learned to shoot on those rifles. More than a few of the shooters mentioned how accurate those rifles were. Mine is very accurate. And as sixgunner pointed out, the 99 was a popular gun with a reputation for accuracy dating well back before the last couple of decades.

I also have a 12 LRPV that is a very accurate rifle. And it isn't just a hunting rifle. It is actually a varmint rifle but is very close to their target rifles in character. The fact that Savage rifles have dominated long range shooting disciplines like F T/R and F Class has brought a lot of people around to the Savage way of thinking too. At the same time Savage was taking great pains to put every improvement the custom rifle guys were doing to Savage products into their production rifles and Remington was suffering from the effects of the buyout by Freedom Group. That has converted a lot of Remington fans into Savage fans. I was one of those. I almost bought a long range Remington model (the Sendero) in 7mm mag when I started hearing about Team Savage and how they were using stock rifles and being custom built rifles in F T/R shooting. That really impressed me as I'm sure it did a lot of other people. So I bought a Savage instead of a Remington and I haven't regretted it one second. I've shot my share of Remington rifles and not one of them shot as well as my LRPV. Maybe I never shot a top tier 700 but then again my 12 wasn't the most expensive rifle made by Savage either.

I just know that I can get very good accuracy from my Savage and that I get more accuracy from it than I have from any Remington I've shot.

I do have an early 1990's Savage 110 in 30.06 too. It is nowhere near the rifle my 12 LRPV is. It's accurate enough but it won't win any competitions without a long list of improvements. But my 12 could. It shoots that well and that's with me shooting it. I can only imagine what it could do with a top notch shooter behind the trigger. I shoot OK I guess but there are a lot who shoot better. :)

dubbleA
January 18, 2013, 11:29 AM
C'mon all Savage shooters, show off your targets. Remember no cherry picked single groups, they all must be on the same target face.

Cee Zee and Kachok, lets see those targets!

Hint: Shooting 3 consecutive 5 shot sub 1/2 moa groups with any factory rifle is alot harder than it looks.

JoeMal
January 18, 2013, 11:41 AM
Savage 25 with factory ammo. These were from when I first got the gun...I haven't taken any good pictures of new targets but I get groups like this regularly without handloads
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t232/jomal206/e897f8a8.jpg

Cee Zee
January 18, 2013, 04:17 PM
I don't shoot targets at 500 yards because they're too hard for me to see well. I shoot objects that stand out well like busted pieces of clays. Plus it takes so long to go check out a target after you shoot it that you spend all your time going down to look then coming back. And the spot I shoot requires that any target be placed half way up a high wall so that it can even be seen at that distance. I will soon be able to have a better way of setting up targets though. But like I said before, what I shoot most often are those 2" chalk targets that explode in a puff of smoke when you hit them.

I do have lots of .22 targets though that I shot with my Savage MkIIBTV. I found this one which is a copy of a target I sent to Savage about key hole problems I was having. I circled the keyholes on the target. The targets are the same size as the ARA targets. The inner ring measures half an inch to the outside of the line on both sides. And this target was shot at 50 yards. Clearly I have 2 groups under .5 MOA and 40% of a third group too. I guess I did have one flyer outside the half inch ring. It would have been the last target I shot so give me two .5 MOA groups I guess.

http://www.a-framevideo.com/keyhole%20problem%20b.jpg

razorback2003
January 18, 2013, 04:53 PM
For the money, Savage puts out a pretty accurate gun with a pretty good trigger.

It is an ugly gun, but it will satisfy the needs of most hunters out there.

Steve in PA
January 18, 2013, 06:59 PM
I have a Savage 12FV chambered in .223 and the rifle is insanely accurate!

allaroundhunter
January 18, 2013, 07:10 PM
I have a Savage in .270 WSM. It is a pretty accurate rifle, but with the price of that ammo I don't shoot it much, typically just to check the zero as it is my go-to hunting rifle.

My Remington 700 Varmint in .308 is a very accurate rifle... I think that Savage has fewer lemons go through, but I would not say that they are inherently more accurate than most other manufacturers.

cal30_sniper
January 18, 2013, 07:13 PM
My light barreled .308 11F model shot ~4" groups out of the box when I bought it way back when. That was with a new Weaver K2.5 scope, no accutrigger model, and factory Winchester 150grn loads.

After glassbedding the action and forearm, and free floating all but the first 3" of barrel, it will consistently do ~1-1.5MOA 5 shot groups. I figure that's pretty good for a light barrel, it gets hot pretty fast.

I also had an old 110E model in 7mm Rem Mag. It would do about 2" 3-shot groups with an old El Paso Weaver K6. After bedding it into a Boyd's Laminate stock, it would do sub 0.5MOA 3-shot groups at 100. Any string longer than that started to open up as the barrel got hot.

I haven't shot the .30-06 110 yet, but I'm hoping for similar results with it. I think the key to many of the plastic and wood stocked Savage rifles is proper bedding. The factory plastic stocks are flimsy, and the factory wood stocks are poorly inletted. None of my rifles had accutriggers, all were just the old-style Savage factory trigger.

Most of my Mauser sporters can do as good or better than my Savage rifles WITH the right load. However, I find the Savage to be much more reliably accurate over a wide range of various powder and bullet weights, as well as factory ammo.

Deer_Freak
January 18, 2013, 07:19 PM
One thing I have noticed is people show off groups they shoot off a bipod, sandbag or leadsled. I have killed a lot of deer in my life. The best I get for a rest is propping my gun up on the side of a tree. Once in a blue moon I get a shot off a shooting stick or across the seat of a 4 wheeler. Once the gun is sighted in I am interested in the groups I can shoot free handed.

NeuseRvrRat
January 18, 2013, 07:45 PM
One thing I have noticed is people show off groups they shoot off a bipod, sandbag or leadsled. I have killed a lot of deer in my life. The best I get for a rest is propping my gun up on the side of a tree. Once in a blue moon I get a shot off a shooting stick or across the seat of a 4 wheeler. Once the gun is sighted in I am interested in the groups I can shoot free handed.

but the thread is about a particular brand's accuracy. benching the rifle makes the shooter less of a factor and lets you better evaluate the rifle alone. maybe you should start a thread about the shooter's accuracy from trees and ATVs.

not to mention that rifles are used for a lot more than killing deer. there's plenty of hunting that gets done off of bipods and rests.

SOTSpro21:31
January 18, 2013, 07:52 PM
Lot of economy rifles out there that are just accurate as a Savage. Field and Stream has a pretty good list of budget rifles. The Marlin x7 in .308 rated as the most accurate.

NeuseRvrRat
January 18, 2013, 08:05 PM
do you have a link to the article? i doubt they included the Savage 10 in an "economy rifle" comparison. Probably the Savage Axis.

89yj
January 18, 2013, 08:09 PM
Shooting Times Guide to Long Range Magazine did a six way accuracy test with budget rifles. They used three examples of each gun and three different loads with three different shooters. Savage placed last in overall accuracy. They would have been middle of the pack except all three Savages had trouble grouping one of the loads.

Kachok
January 18, 2013, 08:25 PM
C'mon all Savage shooters, show off your targets. Remember no cherry picked single groups, they all must be on the same target face.

Cee Zee and Kachok, lets see those targets!

Hint: Shooting 3 consecutive 5 shot sub 1/2 moa groups with any factory rifle is alot harder than it looks.
I would but I always cut out my targets and keep them with the load data sheet for future reference (I don't shoot much factory ammo). Next time I get my 06 and 270 to the range I'll keep a target intact to show you.
While I do consider Savages to be an accurate rifle I will say that my Tikka is even more so, that thing is a dang tack driver.

Cee Zee
January 18, 2013, 09:49 PM
It is an ugly gun

My .223 12 LRPV is "not" ugly. Not by a long shot. I'll take a photo when I get home later.

sixgunner455
January 18, 2013, 10:33 PM
I don't think my 11 is ugly, not at all. It is plain, it is simple - it is elegant in its simplicity, really.

corncob
January 18, 2013, 10:51 PM
I bought a left-handed 11F in 308 when buds was selling the last of last years models off really cheap. It strung really bad--from the first shot. I had the local guy cut the barrel down to 17 inches, and it shoots the lights out now. One moa with BROWN BEAR. Loud though. Light as a feather and ugly as home made sin.

It's a great gun, even though the action its a little rough. I got a VX3 1.75-6 and Talley one piece mounts. Works like a rifle.

I don't buy the savage accuracy legend though. At least not with sporter barrels.

Txhillbilly
January 19, 2013, 12:46 AM
C'mon all Savage shooters, show off your targets. Remember no cherry picked single groups, they all must be on the same target face.

Cee Zee and Kachok, lets see those targets!

Hint: Shooting 3 consecutive 5 shot sub 1/2 moa groups with any factory rifle is alot harder than it looks.
The only targets I have pics of are load testing targets,so there are some that aren't up to your standards,but I have more good loads than bad.

Savage 12FLVSS pre-Accutrigger. 1st target with Weaver Classic Extreme 6-24x50 scope.

http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/1Txhillbilly/Savage%2012%20223%20and%20Targets/001.jpg

http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/1Txhillbilly/Savage%2012%20223%20and%20Targets/002.jpg

http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/1Txhillbilly/Savage%2012%20223%20and%20Targets/005.jpg

Txhillbilly
January 19, 2013, 12:53 AM
Savage 110FLP 25/06

http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/1Txhillbilly/Savage%20110FLP%2025%2006%20and%20Targets/017-5.jpg

http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/1Txhillbilly/Savage%20110FLP%2025%2006%20and%20Targets/018-7.jpg

Txhillbilly
January 19, 2013, 01:01 AM
Savage 10FCP 308

http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/1Txhillbilly/Savage%2010%20and%2012%20308s%20and%20Targets/008-7.jpg

Kachok
January 19, 2013, 02:11 AM
If Savage accuracy is a myth it has had me fooled for a long time.

Cee Zee
January 19, 2013, 02:19 AM
Your sig line is right on Kachok. My LRPV is an 11 pound rifle before the scope went on. It isn't a hunting rifle. It's a varmint rifle. It's built for the shooter to set up and pick off those pesky critters we don't want around from about any reasonable distance. I just got home about an hour ago. When I walked in the house my wife was right behind me and she was freaking because the local coyote population made a run through my yard again. I'll get those suckas soon enough. I just need to get time to warn the neighbors why I might be shooting at night. I have the lights I need, the rifle I need and the audio player I need. I just need a good coyote call to play and some bait.

idcurrie
January 19, 2013, 11:05 AM
I think it's a myth. I find that the Vanguard S2 and Tikka rifles will outshoot them all day long. They are mediocre, generally speaking. There have been at least 2 accuracy reviews but magazines in the last couple of months where the Savages came in near the bottom of the pile.

They're not inaccurate. There are simply more accurate options for the same money. I think even the Marlins were putting them in their place.

I don't have any experience with the marlins but I do with Tika, Sako, and Weatherby and they're all more accurate - not to mention other obvious advantages.

idcurrie
January 19, 2013, 11:12 AM
do you have a link to the article? i doubt they included the Savage 10 in an "economy rifle" comparison. Probably the Savage Axis.

You weren't addressing me but I'll answer.

It's the Dec 12-Jan 13 issue of Field and Stream. As a matter of fact, they did NOT use an Axis. They were using the 11 Trophy Hunter XP. That's the model 11 action with accutrigger.

It competed against Howa, Vanguard S2, TC Venture, Marlin X7, and Ruger American.

It lost.

Their comments:

MSRP: $675
Real-World Price: About $520-$540
Average Group 1.455"
Smallest Group: .713"

"Savage says it puts its money into accuracy, not looks, and true to form the Model 11 is an unlovely thing. Its magazine would snap into place only after an argument, and its trigger was good but too light for my liking. The average test group was O.K., but the individual groups were inconsistent, ranging from sub-MOA to all over the place. The street price barely makes our "about $500 cutoff, but it comes with a scope."




Now all of that said, they're all under 1.5 MOA and fine hunting rifles. I've owned 7 now and currently own 2. All were defective from the factory in some way. Some major, some minor. They don't really inspect their guns before shipping. Not really. I remember the rep at shot show 2012 bragging that each savage rifle is only touched by human hands for less than 3 minutes. He was obviously excited about that from the point of view of making money. Seems like an odd thing to brag about to your customers...

In my personal experience, savage rifles have horrible quality control issues with horrible fit and finish.

Hangingrock
January 19, 2013, 11:21 AM
If people like to shoot small groups from the bench rest and they derive pleasure from that experience then fine I guess. Cooper said more or less in so many words that the bench rest shooting was the worst thing that has happened to marksmanship in his viewpoint.

The rifle ranges I usually frequent seldom seen are those individuals that stand up and shoot. My point is that a two minute of angle rifle is in reality perfectly fine when consideration is given that most individual marksmen aren’t up to the capability of the rifle shooting from field positions.

Certaindeaf
January 19, 2013, 11:26 AM
^
Hickok45 rings his steel about as good with a .380 pocket gun etc as with about any rifle.

cal30_sniper
January 19, 2013, 11:36 AM
If people like to shoot small groups from the bench rest and they derive pleasure from that experience then fine I guess. Cooper said more or less in so many words that the bench rest shooting was the worst thing that has happened to marksmanship in his viewpoint.

The rifle ranges I usually frequent seldom seen are those individuals that stand up and shoot. My point is that a two minute of angle rifle is in reality perfectly fine when consideration is given that most individual marksmen arenít up to the capability of the rifle shooting from field positions.

Although I agree with your premise, I think having a rifle as accurately as possible is a big benefit. You are correct about the benchrest rifles, they are good for punching paper, long range stationary varmint shooting, and hunting from a blind.

I'm one of those people you see shooting offhand, kneeling, and unsupported prone at the range. With a good sporter profile rifle that shoots sub MOA, I can hold ~2MOA kneeling and 3-4MOA offhand. Now, If you were to hand me the same rifle, but with only 2MOA accuracy to begin with, it would double my group size kneeling, and put me out to 5-6MOA offhand. Firing offhand, that's the difference in hitting my target at 200 yards, and missing. Then again, if you were to hand me a heavy barrel rifle in a benchrest style stock, I'd be all over the place. There's a tradeoff, and I think the Savage fills that niche very well (at least the ones that I own do). Even if someone isn't a very good shot, a less accurate rifle still has the potential of making it even worse.

Kachok
January 19, 2013, 12:35 PM
I think it's a myth. I find that the Vanguard S2 and Tikka rifles will outshoot them all day long. They are mediocre, generally speaking. There have been at least 2 accuracy reviews but magazines in the last couple of months where the Savages came in near the bottom of the pile.

They're not inaccurate. There are simply more accurate options for the same money. I think even the Marlins were putting them in their place.

I don't have any experience with the marlins but I do with Tika, Sako, and Weatherby and they're all more accurate - not to mention other obvious advantages.
Funny that you should say that because the last accuracy comparison I saw the Savage outshot everything and this was a contest where three of each rifle was tested. The 114 outshot the CZ 550, the Winchester 70, the Ruger 77 Hawkeye, Remington 700 and the Browning X-Bolt. (Sorry no Tikka, Sako or Weatherby I would have like to see then too) While it won at the range it took second place in the overall because the writers liked features of the Model 70 better.
I can vouch for Tikka/Sako Accuracy, but not Weatherby, never owned one, I went to the gun store several times to buy one but the raised comb stock and squared corners was always weird enough to make me look at something else, love the action but the rifle does not fit me :( I heard they are coming out with a youth model that might fit smaller shooters like myself.

rifleman14
January 19, 2013, 12:44 PM
I had a Savage model 116 stainless steel pencil barrel hunting rifle a couple years back, chambered in 30-06. Had to have gone through a hundred different handloads consisting of many different bullet, powder, and casing combinations, a dozen different factory loads, two different good quality scope/ring setups, and three different experienced shooters including myself....and that dang thing would never group anything tighter than 2" at 100 yards. Sure, it would be in a good mood on some days and get an inch and a half group here and there, but it was never consistent. Average groups ranged from 2" to upwards of 4" at 100 yards. I free floated the barrel, inspected the bore over and over again only to find it spotless and looking like new every time....just wasted a whole lot of time in general. Don't think I'll ever own another savage lol

1858
January 19, 2013, 02:08 PM
All were defective from the factory in some way. Some major, some minor. They don't really inspect their guns before shipping.

...

In my personal experience, savage rifles have horrible quality control issues with horrible fit and finish.

This has been my experience and I won't buy another Savage until Savage makes a change in this area. My Weather Warrior arrived defective as did my neighbors. So what if some or most Savage rifles are accurate, there are a number of other manufacturers making rifles that are equally accurate with a lot more attention to detail, look better, feel better and work better. They'll be getting my business ... for now anyway.

Art Eatman
January 19, 2013, 03:24 PM
Over the last dozen years, the consensus among all posters on the subject of the Savage rifles has been that for the money, they rank high in the accuracy department. They do as well as many rifles costing hundreds of dollars more.

Beyond that? It's a rifle against rifle individual deal.

sixgunner455
January 19, 2013, 09:26 PM
Amen, Art. My 11 in .243 shoots very well, for a light barrel inexpensive hunting rifle. Doesn't even have an Accutrigger. I don't have any stacks of 5 shot, 3-5 group target sheets, but handloads have always shot sub-MOA. Maybe next time I go to the range, I'll bring a couple boxes of handloads and give it a try.

I read that F&S article, too. Kind of struck me that perhaps they did the same thing I did when I first got my rifle - the magazine goes in smoothly one way, and gets bound up or doesn't seat fully if you do it any other way. I've seen a couple of other guys do the same thing.

Kachok
January 19, 2013, 10:53 PM
Anyone that still thinks Savage accuracy is a myth is more then welcome to come shoot with me sometime, I live right next door to Styx River Shooting center. My 06 is just your basic Wal-Mart special, and it shoots below MOA with 150gr Accutips and RL19, my Model 11 270 WSM touches holes with 130gr SGKs and IMR4350. Neither of these have any fancy Accustock or any aftermarket tweaks except for scopes, bases, and rings. Never put any "match" bullets through them only hunting bullets. If Savage was bad about making duds I think I would have run into one of them by now I have owned six of them over the years, and all have been tighter shooting then my 700s, my Browning, or my older Model 70s (though the new one is pretty dang good) I try not to question the shooting skill of people who say Savages are poor shooters but I will question their reloading skills, I have seen a Savage that simply would not shoot factory ammo, but with handloads would rip the X ring off the target. (liked it's bullets seated near max COL)
Savage in general is a reloaders gun, if you want something that you can dump any ol Power Point into and still have it shoot good get yourself a Tikka or Sako. They shoot trash like it was gold plated :)

Cee Zee
January 20, 2013, 05:28 AM
I have an early 90's Savage 110 in 30.06 with no AccuTrigger that I can shoot 2-3 MOA standing. I have shot lots of groups of 6" or less at 200 yards standing with no support at all. That's the way I learned to shoot and we laughed at anyone shooting from a rest at anything closer than 300 yards. It's not that we didn't know you could shoot more accurately that way. It's just that we knew that in order to kill game you not only had to be able to shoot standing or sitting of kneeling or whatever but you also had to be able to hit game that was moving too.

Eventually I got old and health problems made me sit down to shoot often. I found it to be a satsifying pursuit of it's own but I would still count on my old skills if I had a bear charging me or whatever. Shooting off hand at a moving target is a lot different than shooting at paper targets with no reason to think dinner wouldn't be there if I missed. I like to do both and I see the value in both. What I also see is that most people hunt deer or whatever from a tree stand these days and that usually means shooting from a rest pretty often. In the old days we might see people climb trees to hunt deer but there were no stands to sit in. That was mainly because there were no deer to shoot at in those days anyway. I didn't see a lot of deer in my area until I was almost 35 years old. Now they're everywhere. So people can be more picky about their shots. You don't have to take a shot thinking you won't get another. Almost certainly you will these days.

So I don't knock people for shooting from a rest these days. There are still good reason to learn to shoot off hand but they aren't as important as they once were.

Wolfsbane
January 20, 2013, 06:59 AM
They run through your yard? Have you thought about trying land mines?


Your sig line is right on Kachok. My LRPV is an 11 pound rifle before the scope went on. It isn't a hunting rifle. It's a varmint rifle. It's built for the shooter to set up and pick off those pesky critters we don't want around from about any reasonable distance. I just got home about an hour ago. When I walked in the house my wife was right behind me and she was freaking because the local coyote population made a run through my yard again. I'll get those suckas soon enough. I just need to get time to warn the neighbors why I might be shooting at night. I have the lights I need, the rifle I need and the audio player I need. I just need a good coyote call to play and some bait.

hseII
January 20, 2013, 08:32 AM
They run through your yard? Have you thought about trying land mines?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Cee Zee
Your sig line is right on Kachok. My LRPV is an 11 pound rifle before the scope went on. It isn't a hunting rifle. It's a varmint rifle. It's built for the shooter to set up and pick off those pesky critters we don't want around from about any reasonable distance. I just got home about an hour ago. When I walked in the house my wife was right behind me and she was freaking because the local coyote population made a run through my yard again. I'll get those suckas soon enough. I just need to get time to warn the neighbors why I might be shooting at night. I have the lights I need, the rifle I need and the audio player I need. I just need a good coyote call to play and some bait.


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Last edited by Wolfsbane; Today at 06:12 AM.

I Seriously just fell off the Toilet:D

Sav .250
January 20, 2013, 08:49 AM
I own a Savage 110 in 243 cal. It`s an early 60`s model. "Fact or fiction?" Fact from the get go!

Cee Zee
January 20, 2013, 09:16 AM
They run through your yard? Have you thought about trying land mines?

I just love how out of touch city people are with reality. It's really funny to hear the stuff they think. I have about 4 acres of yard here and 10 acres of property. I have photos of these coyotes captured with my game camera (crappy as it may be). They were taken at the barn behind my house which is maybe 150 yards away. They have a den in that barn most likely because they run back to that spot often.

But you feel free to think you know something about living in the country. I can use a good laugh from time to time. Heck coyotes are invading cities too. But I doubt you'll see any from your mom's basement.

mwurman
January 20, 2013, 10:12 AM
For the money, Savage puts out a pretty accurate gun with a pretty good trigger.

It is an ugly gun, but it will satisfy the needs of most hunters out there.

Mines not ugly...Then again its an old 116...with a NightForce NXS 8132x56, bipod and new cheek rest...so kinda cant say its out of the box...but even when I first got it, the stainless with black stock is beautiful :)

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8214/8398630078_4ee30f434d_c.jpg

When I bought it (used)...with my Mark II .22LR, which was insanely accurate out of the box.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8097/8398631876_1e59c98182_c.jpg

cmb3366
January 20, 2013, 10:36 AM
My take on Savage is that given their price and availability, a heavy barreled Savage is often the most accurate rifle many people have had the opportunity to shoot. I hear about them all the time at my range, and I think it is more a lack of exposure to different rifles than any true bias. I can say that I have offered a few Savage/ accutrigger and a few Cooper proponents who claim their rifle is more accurate than they are the chance to send some rounds through my Stiller 30br heavy gun with 1.5oz Jewell. All I can say is that shooting a rifle that actually aggs in the .2's is a real eye opener for them.

Bushpilot
January 20, 2013, 11:30 AM
Savage bolt rifles are usually accurate but I think that the reputation has grown a little beyond the reality and has become somewhat of an internet myth. The Savage 110 style action was designed back in the 50’s and has been around for a long time. If its accuracy potential was superior to everything else it wouldn’t have taken this long to be recognized as such. As jmr40 already pointed out, the way that they are designed requires much less precision during assembly and is much more forgiving. They aren’t inherently any more accurate than other designs, just easier to assemble and properly headspace. While potentially no more accurate than other rifles, being easier to assemble, the Savages may be slightly less likely to be found noticeably inaccurate. I also agree with those that mentioned the Savage was really designed as a budget rifle. But, many people forget that the Remington 721/700 was also designed as a budget rifle that was cheaper to manufacture than a model 70, but also incorporated some strength and accuracy enhancing improvements in its design, so I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. I also side with those that consider the Savage to be some what (sorry) ugly. The barrel nut, which makes the Savage so easy to assemble is part the reason. Also not helping in appearance and in keeping with the whole budget idea concept, Savage doesn't mill off the excess material in the receiver, especially at the rear. This makes the action a bit bulky. Another problem with the receivers is that they are too long, due to, in part I believe, the floating bolt face. This length adds even more weight, reduces stiffness, makes for a long bolt travel and worse of all, limits scope mounting as far as tube length and eye relief are concerned. I also don’t believe the Savage lock time is as fast as the Remington and others but that is just an educated guess on my part. The Savage bolt rifles are good and represented a great value in the past when they were priced as budget guns. Now however, they are priced up there with everything else and that makes me question whether the buyer is really getting their money’s worth. Just for the record, I'd also like to say that I think by far the best, highest quality, most innovative rifle Savage ever made was the 99.

Hangingrock
January 20, 2013, 12:36 PM
I firmly believe that a certain percentage of firearms consumer’s don’t have a grasp on the economics of manufacturing. Cost-effective/innovative engineering and manufacture appear to be frowned upon. Robert Greenleaf wrote extremely interesting articles on firearms designs in particularly related to Savage of whom he was employed.

Tempest 455
January 20, 2013, 12:39 PM
I never shot my gun at 100 yards w/ good ammo for groups. How about from 400 yards?

This is a 2.25" group (just over.5 MOA) using box ammo. Black Hills 168g. No benchrest, this was off a bipod.

https://home.comcast.net/~ericdouthitt/DSCF0742.jpg

https://home.comcast.net/~ericdouthitt/DSCF0720.jpg

dubbleA
January 20, 2013, 02:08 PM
I never shot my gun at 100 yards w/ good ammo for groups. How about from 400 yards?


No, that doesnt count. Sorry,that's a example of a cherry picked group.
Here are the requirements again.

Well here's your chance to show off a little. I feel accuracy claims should be done with multiple groups, a single random 3 or 5 shot cherry picked group dosent cut it.

Here are the rules:


Factory/stock rifles
Centerfire only, 100 yds
Three or more 5 shot groups shot on the same target face.
Impact should be no more than 1 inch from center of bullseye.

This will show consistancy along with accuracy and throw out the occasional "wow" group.

I call real life repeatable accuracy.





Simply this post is about consistant accuracy with a Savage CF rifle. Something that can be repeated. To this point I havent seen any pictures showing this other than my own. I have only read "yeah my Savage is the most accurate gun I own", "no Savage isnt better than any other", etc. This leaves me thinking?


I see claims that are hard to believe, they would give benchrest/target shooters a run for their money with a factory sporter.
Some think that getting a 3 shot single hole group is the schnizzle and call their rifle a 1/2 moa shooter.
Some shoot a few small groups and dont include the bad ones and then they claim they can "shoot sub moa all day long".


Been shooting a long time, been there and done that with most anything rifle related and know it's certainly easier said that than done. Although the quality of firearms manufacturing is high and accuracy is probablly better than ever today I believe Savage doesnt offer anything in the accuracy department thant other makes dont offer. Nothing magical about them at all, it still takes a shooter and ammo to complete the equation.


Now lets back to the OP.
A picture of 3 or more 5 shot groups with a factory Savage centerfire rifle at 100yds on the same target face. I know there are shooter/rifle combinations that can do this out there.

Please post yout results here...

Wolfsbane
January 20, 2013, 03:06 PM
Have you ever thought about getting a sense of humor? I know it's surprising to those who don't have one. But many of us do and it adds immeasurably to one's quality of life.

The medical profession is truly doing incredible things with transplants nowadays. Many people generously choose to be a donor, so it's likely they'll be able to find one for you among them many accident victims there are each year.

I'm sure everyone who watches you floundering around without one is greatly saddened by it. I have no doubt they'd probably be more than willing to chip in to help you defray the cost, if that's the issue.

A life without the joys of a sense of humor is indeed a terrible thing to have to experience. So hang in there. I'm sure a donated sense of humor will become available for you shortly. I think I can speak for everyone here at the High Road, when I say we're all rooting for you.


I just love how out of touch city people are with reality. It's really funny to hear the stuff they think. I have about 4 acres of yard here and 10 acres of property. I have photos of these coyotes captured with my game camera (crappy as it may be). They were taken at the barn behind my house which is maybe 150 yards away. They have a den in that barn most likely because they run back to that spot often.

But you feel free to think you know something about living in the country. I can use a good laugh from time to time. Heck coyotes are invading cities too. But I doubt you'll see any from your mom's basement.

Bushpilot
January 20, 2013, 03:13 PM
Simply this post is about consistant accuracy with a Savage CF rifle. Something that can be repeated. To this point I havent seen any pictures showing this other than my own. I have only read "yeah my Savage is the most accurate gun I own", "no Savage isnt better than any other", etc.

No, that doesnt count. Sorry,that's a example of a cherry picked group.
Here are the requirements again.


At the risk of posting yet another post that doesn’t fit your strict guidelines I’ll just mention that; I don't happen to be one who takes a picture of every interesting group I’ve ever shot, broken down by rifle type and I'm sure that there are many others out there like myself. I might on occasion make a few notes, especially if I’m shooting reloads. I also don't believe that every picture I see of a nice group is necessarily shot under the exact conditions that that are reported. There are a few “fish” stories here and there... We can all find the necessary “facts” to support our opinions (beliefs) and another picture of a tight group or two doesn’t really prove anything one way or the other… When it comes right down to it that’s what these boards are all about anyway, opinion, hopefully backed up by a little actual experience. If you’re not satisfied with hearing opinions and want more credible evidence then you’re better off collecting it yourself and drawing your own conclusions. Or, you could simply be gracious enough to accept and acknowledge the contributions and opinions that were offered and take them for what they are worth.

Cee Zee
January 20, 2013, 06:43 PM
Personally I don't need the approval of anyone on the net for my opinions. I base them in the facts I see. I "know" what my Savage will do. And every rifle has a bad group from time to time so there's such a thing as cherry picking the bad groups too. I know what others report about their Savages and it is right in line with what I say about mine. And yes there are Savages shooting .2 MOA groups too so I don't see a big advantage in a super expensive rifle unless I want to win a world title and even then Savages make it possible to win with off the shelf rifles shooting against custom rifles. People always want to ignore that for some reason.

Bushpilot
January 20, 2013, 08:37 PM
Personally I don't need the approval of anyone on the net for my opinions.

Who said that you needed anyone’s approval? But, if you’re not here to hear other people’s opinions as well as to sharing your own, then what are you here for?

every rifle has a bad group from time to time so there's such a thing as cherry picking the bad groups

No, truly accurate rifles don’t have “bad groups from time to time.” Shooters have bad groups on occasion but if rifles regularly produce uncalled flyers or “bad groups from time to time” with good ammo then they are not really accurate rifles.

I know what others report about their Savages and it is right in line with what I say about mine.

I didn’t think you cared about what others said in determining your opinions? You certainly don’t speak for all Savage owners. I’m definitely familiar enough with Savages to know what they are capable of and while generally good shooters there isn’t anything miraculous about them.

cmb3366
January 21, 2013, 01:11 AM
The real difference between a high end custom, and a factory rifle like a Savage is consistency. It's been my experience that off the bench, most people underestimate what they are capable of, and make a lot of excuses for their equipment along the lines of 'I must have pulled that shot', 'wind got that one', and otherwise to explain and rationalize why the ultra small groups are a relatively rare occurrence. What you are really seeing in the bad groups, and the pulled shots, is that the rifle aggs somewhere in the middle between your worst and best groups. This is to say, the rifle is unable consistently able to replicate your best results, and averages toward much more mediocre results than those we like to throw around on gun boards.

This is not to say that wind and shooter form are not players in overall accuracy, as we all know they are, but my experience shows me that many shooters who have not spent time with a really consistently accurate rifle overestimate their effects as a way of rationalizing why they can't reproduce those occasional excellent groups on every range trip or on every target.

One of the wonders of a good custom BR gun, at least in my experience, is that with a little coaching about the trigger and using a joystick rest, people I have offered the chance to try my rifle can send rounds into ragged little holes over and over so long as I keep feeding them ammo. They always seem surprised they they were capable of such accuracy, as they previously considered themselves the weak link in their own setup.

Cee Zee
January 21, 2013, 03:31 AM
Any rifle locked into a rest is going to shoot more consistent than a sandbag rested gun. That's just a given. That's why I think the shooters in F/TR are such a good indication of what is really the rifle and what is really the shooter. Those guys are accomplished shooters. They must be to shoot the way they shoot at 1000 yards. When you take the expensive rests out of the equation I think you see the true difference in the rifles. And Savage has been burning up the F/TR tour shooting against custom rifles. The reason that doesn't happen in BR shooting is because of the rests. Shooters must use a bipod in F/TR. It takes the elaborate rest out of the picture and shows you what the actual rifle will do.

And again, ONLY Savage competes in F/TR with stock rifles. They also compete in F Class but more lax rules make it possible for the custom rifles to do better. Still Savage does have a significant presence in F Class and they do win if not as often as they do in F/TR.

I just can't help but think that if Sako and Tikka were such great shooters compared to a Savage that someone would be doing well with one in F/TR. But they aren't. Until someone gives me a good explanation as to why I will continue to believe that Savages shoot better than those other rifles. Surely those companies realize the value in having a stock rifle, like Savage does, compete and win in those shooting classes. I know it sells rifles for Savage because it caused me to buy one. I had my choice. I picked Savage because of this very point.

I think we need to review this one more time just so all the details are pointed out. Savage rifles that come right out of the box (and they cost under $1500 for the rifle and sometimes a good bit less) WIN in 1000 yard competitions against custom built rifles. Those would be the same rifles people build for BR shooting but without the elaborate and expensive rests. So it's rifle against rifle because the fact is there are several members of Team Savage that compete and win with Savage rifles. It's not just about one great shooter. It's a team and that means they have several good shooters. And Savage didn't put this team together. They got together themselves. Savage jumped on the bandwagon and sponsored them but they had already been winning before that happened.

So we have $1500 Savage rifles (or cheaper) competing with $4000-$5000 custom built rifles and the Savages win as often as not. And no other rifle factories have rifles that are competitive in the sport. If that doesn't tell us something I don't know what ever could. Savage accuracy is real and documented. Unless I see where some other rifle company is doing as well or better I'll continue to believe that Savage makes some of the best rifles on earth and that includes being compared to custom built rifles. I just don't know how anyone could ever argue otherwise without claiming the whle thing is a hoax and there's a mountain of evidence that it isn't a hoax.

Show me a Sako or a Tikka that can do that and then we'll talk. Sure we aren't talking hunting rifles but that wasn't the OP's question.

Have you ever thought about getting a sense of humor?

When I see something funny I will laugh, trust me. What I don't see as funny is middle school humor. I don't want to insult you either so I'll try to be gentle. Beavis and Butthead never impressed me much.

Bushpilot
January 21, 2013, 06:17 AM
That's why I think the shooters in F/TR are such a good indication of what is really the rifle and what is really the shooter. Those guys are accomplished shooters.

The F/TR class is much more a test of the Shooter and his ability to judge the wind than a test of the rifle. But here we are talking about comparing the rifles, not the shooters. Any rifle capable of consistent .5 MOA is theoretically capable of shooting in the X ring in F/TR and being competitive. This requires a good shooting rifle but it isn’t all that uncommon. I’ve had numerous ordinary Remington 700 Varmint Specials 20 years ago that would do that consistently and weighed much less than the 18.5 weight limit of the F/TR rifles. The reason there are so many Savages competing is because they are comparatively inexpensive, have decent triggers, are accurate enough and some models already come with the 30 inch barrels that squeeze all the velocity possible out of the .223 and .308 for the long range and the wind.

The reason that doesn't happen in BR shooting [Savage winning] is because of the rests. Shooters must use a bipod in F/TR. It takes the elaborate rest out of the picture and shows you what the actual rifle will do. When you take the expensive rests out of the equation I think you see the true difference in the rifles

No, just the opposite. The reason Savage isn't a big winner in Bench Rest is because BR rifles are accurate enough to bring out the inherent weaknesses in the Savage action. The "elaborate rest" actually takes the shooter more out of the picture and shows what the rifle will do.

Cee Zee
January 21, 2013, 07:33 AM
Not all F/TR shooting is done at 1000 yards. Some of it is at 600 yards, which makes reading the wind much less of a factor. Savage excels at those distances too. And a group of shooters will either all have to be exceptional to set the team records Team Savage is setting or they must be using superior equipment. I just don't think Team Savage managed to find a group of guys so above the level of others that they could take a stock rifle and win with it if that rifle wasn't at least as good as the competitions rifles or better (and that includes mostly custom built rifles in their competition). The thing is one guy proved that it was possible to win with stock Savage rifles and others came behind him. Sure they wanted to save money but that doesn't mean they could do it without a great rifle. And from what I hear around here people "think" other similarly priced rifles shoot better than Savages. Yet no one is winning with those rifles. You'd think at least one shooter would be using those Tikkas, Weatherbys and Sakos to win. After all they are close to the same price as the Savages. So why aren't they competiting?

I don't think anyone would argue that there were Remingtons that could do well against the competition that was around 20 years ago but the groups have gotten much more tight since then and those were not stock Remingtons. Big difference. I've shot lots of stock Remingtons and they don't even come close to the stock Savage I own and from what I can tell there are lots of other Savages around that are as good or better than mine. But to compare a rifle from 20 years ago to now is a stretch IMO. Then there's the fact that the Savages are setting records for accuracy in those categories. Obviously they are shooting better than those Remingtons did if they are setting records. And people could buy a BB gun to try to compete because it's cheap too. That doesn't mean they will be able to. Other rifles are just as cheap as the Savages. In fact some of those Remington actions can be bought cheaper than the Savage actions. Why aren't people using those to save money and still winning?

Bushpilot
January 21, 2013, 09:49 AM
You admittedly read Savage’s marketing. Then, you bought the rifle, you’re invested. Now is the time to wave your Savage flag... Wave away… The F/TR class you keep regurgitating is much more about the shooter than the rifle, but wave away… This is obviously at a dead end..

Hokkmike
January 21, 2013, 10:09 AM
Generally speaking you get what you pay for. I have been shooting a loooooonnng time and have always considered Savage an entry level rifle. Maybe times have changed.

I think there is a lot that can be done with very basic equipment to improve marksmanship. This is good to see.

My brother has always shot a Savage and seems very happy with it.

hueyville
January 21, 2013, 10:09 AM
I have never been a Savage fan till recently. They seem to have picked up their game on certain rifles. I don't think there is any magic here but if you buy one of their newer premium rifles you get a lot of bang for your buck. I never owned one till a month ago after I shot one of the 338 Lapua Mag's at 400 yards. Ordered my own the next day but due to not enough scope money till I sell some more Combloc guns it is at the rifle smith having a basic tune-up done while I get some glass. I bought a Model 40 .22 hornet two weeks ago with Leupold 6x-18x glass and it is an all holes touching rifle at 100 yards.

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