So, NY police officers are superior...


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allaroundhunter
January 18, 2013, 06:42 PM
and a double-standard is most certainly evident...

http://reason.com/blog/2013/01/18/cops-are-outraged-that-new-yorks-new-mag#comment

NY police officers are also (according to the new law) not allowed to own 'high capacity' magazines.... However, according to Cuomo, that "Effective Immediately" part does not apply to them...

My favorite part? Here are the reasons that the police need more ammunition than 'regular' civilians:

"As a law enforcement officer for over 20 years, I understand the importance of instituting a new policy on mandating the limits of bullets that a regular citizen can possess, but as a matter of fact the bad guys are not going to follow this law," said Norman Seabrook, president of the correction officers union, the city's second largest.

Wait, isn't that what we have been saying all along?

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Hacker15E
January 18, 2013, 06:44 PM
Yet again, folks thinking that LEOs are "super citizens" with more rights than the "ordinary" citizens they serve and protect.

USAF_Vet
January 18, 2013, 07:47 PM
And if you shot 9 innocent bystanders while trying to shoot a murderer at a distance of 8 feet, you'd never see the light of day as a free man.

But if you are a cop in NYC... Well, they can accept a certain amount of collateral damage.

oldbear
January 18, 2013, 07:49 PM
Cops have had special treatment in the courts practicaly forever. If YOU had walked up and repeatedly brain shot a couple of unarmed, bledout felons, who were just trying to escape, (ie, Platt and Matix, in Miami) the way Mirules did, you'd be doing 20+ years in prison.

Two felons who had murdered two FBI agents, and wounded how many other?

GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jamesbeat
January 18, 2013, 08:22 PM
So if he realizes that the bad guys won't obey the law, why does he 'see the importance' of it?
Evidently he doesn't like the idea of law abiding citizens being armed.

dmancornell
January 18, 2013, 08:28 PM
Two felons who had murdered two FBI agents, and wounded how many other?

GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

His point is that a civilian doing the same would be thrown in prison.

Every cop/pro-cop person I've argued with acknowledges the cops operate under a different set of laws. Of course that completely nullifies any claim they make about how they are civilians like the rest of us plebs. All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

lemaymiami
January 18, 2013, 08:41 PM
xio... I'm a pretty tolerant guy but your comments about Platt and Matix are either misguided or deliberately false... I was working that day - and it was as bad as it gets....

By the way before that final confrontation... those two guys obtained vehicles to do bank robberies by finding folks by themselves and then shooting them instead of just robbing them to take their cars.... That's how they got the car they were in that day and the fellow they killed was a gun owner out plinking by himself.... They were spotted since the task force was specifically looking for that car.

Yes, you can always find injustice if you look, and yes, there are police involved cases that no one could defend. What happened that day wasn't one of them. If I'd been in charge of that takedown I'd like to think that not one cop or agent would have been shot... but the outcome for the bad guys wouldn't have changed one bit.... Most departments in south Florida worked long and hard to upgrade their tactics after that incident. It changed minds at every level of law enforcement... When Mirales finished those two they'd already killed or wounded every officer or agent present and Mirales, himself, was so badly wounded that he could barely hold the shotgun he used (and had to rack it one handed while trying not to pass out from his wounds...).

Nickel Plated
January 18, 2013, 08:43 PM
Two felons who had murdered two FBI agents, and wounded how many other?

GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't change the fact that you'd still be in prison for shooting them.

razorback2003
January 18, 2013, 09:11 PM
So this NY governor can say a law does not apply to police, even though the bill he signed into law does say it applies to police?

That is not how a constitutional republic works. The governor does not make the laws.

So what next, will the governor say that the 7 round law does not apply to Brinks and Loomis for their armored car guards that carry semi auto handguns? What will those companies be doing with this law in place?

USAF_Vet
January 18, 2013, 09:28 PM
And Matix never killed anybody that day and in fact barely participated in the fight, getting off only 1 shot from his 12 ga, with ONE little #6 birdshot pellet hitting an agent in the ankle, IIRC. then he got shot in the head by a .38 snub, and it didn't penetrate his skull! :-). but the blow did render him unconscious for a minuter or two. I got all the facts, dude. Do you?
The only way you'd have all the facts is if you were there during the entire thing. Were you?

If you got your facts from a reputable source, please, share them for the rest of us.

G21NE
January 19, 2013, 12:14 AM
And Matix never killed anybody that day and in fact barely participated in the fight, getting off only 1 shot from his 12 ga, with ONE little #6 birdshot pellet hitting an agent in the ankle, IIRC. then he got shot in the head by a .38 snub, and it didn't penetrate his skull! :-). but the blow did render him unconscious for a minuter or two. I got all the facts, dude. Do you?
Well, then, Matix- accessory to murder, just as guilty.

So what if you were there, I'm sure you would have just stopped shooting at that point, since you are apparently an expert on when a proven murderer is no longer a threat.

Those agents had a duty to stop the threat by whatever means were necessary. I think it is painfully obvious they were not going to drop their guns and surrender peacefully.

Hindsight is 20/20

G21NE
January 19, 2013, 12:23 AM
and a double-standard is most certainly evident...

http://reason.com/blog/2013/01/18/cops-are-outraged-that-new-yorks-new-mag#comment

NY police officers are also (according to the new law) not allowed to own 'high capacity' magazines.... However, according to Cuomo, that "Effective Immediately" part does not apply to them...

My favorite part? Here are the reasons that the police need more ammunition than 'regular' civilians:



Wait, isn't that what we have been saying all along?
Reminds me of an anti's argument I heard on Hannity's radio show yesterday, I believe. The caller was trying to make the point that a "trained shooter" doesn't need "high cap" magazines to defend themselves against an attacker.

Too bad that Hannity didn't make the counter argument "police are more trained than anyone else, so they shouldn't need "high cap" magazines either.!!"

Texshooter
January 19, 2013, 12:48 AM
If anyone is a Glock owner here, how can we influence Glock (or any other Manf.) not to sell over 7 round mags to NYC?

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 19, 2013, 12:53 AM
And Matix never killed anybody that day and in fact barely participated in the fight, getting off only 1 shot from his 12 ga, with ONE little #6 birdshot pellet hitting an agent in the ankle,

So if someone fired a shotgun at you and only ONE little #6 birdshot pellet hit you in the ankle, that would not warrant you to draw your gun to defend yourself? I am reading this right that attempted murder doesn't warrant equal or greater force used in response?

mrvco
January 19, 2013, 01:40 AM
Yeah, getting sucked into the high-cap vs. no-high-cap mag argument is a no-win situation at best.

Point being, regardless of the prevailing gun laws in the country in which they reside, each of these "mass killers" seem to almost always be high-functioning individuals (albeit with known mental health issues in most cases) who do whatever it takes to "train" and arm (legally or illegally) themselves in such a way that they can create the carnage that they desire, whether it be using high-cap mags, multiple reloads, multiple guns and/or explosives.

Redlg155
January 19, 2013, 08:26 AM
Solution.

LEOs check out high capacity mags when starting shift and turn them in at the end.

You may carry neutered matazines off duty and at home. I'd bet that some of the Unions, Pollice chiefs and Sheriffs would suddenly stop supporting restrictions on citizens.

parsimonious_instead
January 19, 2013, 08:38 AM
Cops have had special treatment in the courts practicaly forever. If YOU had walked up and repeatedly brain shot a couple of unarmed, bledout felons, who were just trying to escape, (ie, Platt and Matix, in Miami) the way Mirules did, you'd be doing 20+ years in prison. If YOU had fired 15 rds at a man who had nothing in his hand but a wallet (ie, Diallo in NYC) you'd be doing life, without a doubt.

I agree that there are differing standards, but what the FBI agents did to "finish" those two killers wasn't a summary execution - it was a continuation of the self-defense action they were fighting for those terrifying minutes. If you're wounded, adrenalized, scared and maybe a bit confused, I could hardly blame you for not making a fine distinction between a shooter who's about to draw yet another weapon or use their "getaway" car to run you over, vs. aggressors that are ready to finally give up.

If anything the North Hollywood shootout showed a bit of callousness - one of the shooters was allowed to bleed out and wasn't given any on-scene medical attention. (The other shooter died in a spectacularly grisly coincidence when he suicided and was hit by a police marksman at the same time).

lemaymiami
January 19, 2013, 09:49 AM
The "Miami shootout" involved a mix of uniform cops, plainclothes officers, and FBI agents. If I remember correctly it was 7 or 9 badges up against two offenders. The two managed to kill two FBI agents and wound every other cop on the scene before finally being killed. Folks that lived in the neighborhook called it in as a drug war....

The guy who finally put them down was a badly wounded county officer....

I was north of there that day working the street with my crew in uniform (at that time there were 27 different police departments in Dade county - I worked for one of the cities in the north end of the county). That entire incident was studied and dissected over and over by everyone in the area for several years... By then I was a lieutenant and in charge of training for my outfit. We did everything we could to make sure that dangerous incidents like that were handled differently. The idea was always that the good guys got to go home in one piece while the bad guys usually quit because they were facing overwhelming force, carefully planned and executed... the last thing anyone wanted then and now is some kind of wild movie type shootout - since the good guys don't always win if it comes to that.

Pray to god that you're never involved in that kind of situation.... I can't express how glad I am to be out of that line of work.

oldbear
January 19, 2013, 02:59 PM
His point is that a civilian doing the same would be thrown in prison.
Don't change the fact that you'd still be in prison for shooting them.


Any civilian who had shot either Platt or Matix as Mirules did would have been using deadly force to protect the life of another. In addition Mirules also was acting under the fleeing rule that allowed deadly force to be used to stop a fleeing felon.

c1ogden
January 19, 2013, 10:56 PM
The "Miami shootout" involved a mix of uniform cops, plainclothes officers, and FBI agents. If I remember correctly it was 7 or 9 badges up against two offenders. The two managed to kill two FBI agents and wound every other cop on the scene before finally being killed.

The 1986 Platt/Matix shootout involved 8 plainclothes FBI agents. No uniformed officers were present and no other LEOs were present.
The 2 dead agents were Ben Grogan and Jerry Dove. The 5 wounded agents were Gordon McNeill, Ed Mireles, John Hanlon, Dick Manauzzi, and Gil Orrantia. Agent Ron Risner is the only one who was not injured.

From Dr. W. French Anderson's book "Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986 FBI Firefight".

c1ogden
January 19, 2013, 11:04 PM
Quote:
"As a law enforcement officer for over 20 years, I understand the importance of instituting a new policy on mandating the limits of bullets that a regular citizen can possess, but as a matter of fact the bad guys are not going to follow this law," said Norman Seabrook, president of the correction officers union, the city's second largest.


Since we don't have the rest of the article this could have been taken out of context. My first though was that this CO was being sarcastic, mocking his subversive governor and his unConstitutional gun law.

GoWolfpack
January 19, 2013, 11:17 PM
Since we don't have the rest of the article this could have been taken out of context. My first though was that this CO was being sarcastic, mocking his subversive governor and his unConstitutional gun law.
I don't think he would have his job very long if that was the case.

SharpsDressedMan
January 20, 2013, 12:37 AM
I hope pro-gun Tom Selleck addresses this foolishness in the "Blue Bloods" series. That would be a good poke at NY and their politics. I guess I'm a dreamer. :rolleyes:

jmace57
January 20, 2013, 12:38 AM
I had a City of Houston police car - same driver - pass me on a local toll road 2 days in a row doing 120 mph+ (scaring the crap out of me) - no siren or lights. When I came up to the toll booth, he's just there shooting the breeze with the attendants. Two days in a row. I called the HPD to file a complaint. THe person's I spoke to's response? "Houston police do not have to obey any traffic laws...PERIOD" When I started to talk...the guy said "what part of that don't you understand?" So, yeah, I believe it.

Note - this was the "Community Relations" officer I was talking to.

mbt2001
January 20, 2013, 02:18 AM
If the police NEED high capacity magazines, then I do to. We are defending ourselves against the same criminals, who they have acknowledged, will not follow the law.

Fishslayer
January 20, 2013, 02:26 AM
Yet again, folks thinking that LEOs are "super citizens" with more rights than the "ordinary" citizens they serve and protect.

In Kalifornistan LEOs are exempt from not only the 10rd magazine limit, but can buy handguns not on the "not too unsafe" approved handgun roster. Gun stores actually have "LEO sales only" cases.:fire:

General Geoff
January 20, 2013, 02:31 AM
Police are outraged at the lack of a double standard... color me surprised...

JERRY
January 20, 2013, 02:32 AM
werent these state rules enacted by the politicians the people of that state voted for?

leave them alone, states have a right to govern themselves. if they people of that state dont like they can change it.

c1ogden
January 20, 2013, 04:11 PM
I had a City of Houston police car - same driver - pass me on a local toll road 2 days in a row doing 120 mph+ (scaring the crap out of me) - no siren or lights. When I came up to the toll booth, he's just there shooting the breeze with the attendants. Two days in a row. I called the HPD to file a complaint. THe person's I spoke to's response? "Houston police do not have to obey any traffic laws...PERIOD" When I started to talk...the guy said "what part of that don't you understand?" So, yeah, I believe it.

Note - this was the "Community Relations" officer I was talking to.



You need to record those phone calls and play them for the local TV stations! A video of the reckless driver would be great also but the main problem here is this corrupt mind-set that they are above the law.

JamesDeWolf
January 20, 2013, 04:31 PM
My name is jim ,i live in roch,ny, gun laws suck here,no more then 7 rds in a mag,I say if you have 30s put them away deep, i don't mind the law in some parts for the ar15

Carl N. Brown
January 20, 2013, 04:52 PM
In addition Mirules also was acting under the fleeing rule that allowed deadly force to be used to stop a fleeing felon.

Mirule fired at felons who would have been a clear and immediate threat if they got to cover, or would have been a probable threat to others if they got away. This is not like Gardner in Tennessee or the FBI raid in California where an unarmed man running away was shot by an agent who mistakenly believed he had fired on another agent. The Miami bank robbers were heavily armed and it was more or less one continuous gun fight.

PRM
January 20, 2013, 05:03 PM
So, NY police officers are superior...

No they are not superior, and most would not even go there in a discussion. The shame of it all, is that the NY Governor and his cronies have created this mess. It's a pathetic abuse of power and the manner in which it was pushed through shows the ignoble character of the anti-crowd in that state.

Instead of being angry at the police - New York residents need to remember everyone who voted for this when they run for re-election. If they don't, things are pretty much what they are.

JERRY
January 20, 2013, 07:36 PM
instead of being angry at the police - new york residents need to remember everyone who voted for this when they run for re-election. If they don't, things are pretty much what they are.

for some folks its easier to blame the police for enforcing the law of the land than it is to look in the mirror as to why these laws got enacted and by whom.

PavePusher
January 20, 2013, 07:48 PM
No they are not superior, and most would not even go there in a discussion. The shame of it all, is that the NY Governor and his cronies have created this mess. It's a pathetic abuse of power and the manner in which it was pushed through shows the ignoble character of the anti-crowd in that state.

Instead of being angry at the police - New York residents need to remember everyone who voted for this when they run for re-election. If they don't, things are pretty much what they are.
That would be easier if the police didn't squel like speared pigs when they have to live under the same rules as the Citizens.

If they insisted that the same laws apply to them, they'd win rather a lot of good will and fellowship.

I won't hold my breath....

joeschmoe
January 20, 2013, 08:01 PM
werent these state rules enacted by the politicians the people of that state voted for?

leave them alone, states have a right to govern themselves. if they people of that state dont like they can change it.
If that were true then missisippi would legalize slavery.
Only federal law prevents them.

JERRY
January 20, 2013, 08:08 PM
if that were true then missisippi would legalize slavery.
Only federal law prevents them.

well if we are going back over a century ago let me see what i can find out about non married people of the opposite sex co-habitating....

Come on man....lets stay current.

joeschmoe
January 20, 2013, 08:15 PM
No. I mean today.

Jenrick
January 20, 2013, 09:59 PM
That would be easier if the police didn't squel like speared pigs when they have to live under the same rules as the Citizens.

If they insisted that the same laws apply to them, they'd win rather a lot of good will and fellowship.

I won't hold my breath...

I'm an LEO down in Texas, and yeah I'd complain long and loud if someone tried to limit my mag capacity. I'd also do that if they just tried to do it non-LEO's only. There are a very few RANK AND FILE cops that are rabid gun control supporters. As you climb the food chain this changes dramatically, as most chiefs and sheriffs are politicians first and LEO's last.

-Jenrick

JERRY
January 20, 2013, 11:08 PM
Let us not forget....if the police get an exemption its because of thier lobbying power the vast majority of cops and cop brass making noise...

Where is your lobbying power? Is it the nra which only has 5% of gun owners as members?

WHEN THE NRA STARTS POINTING FINGERS AT POLITICIANS, THOSE POLITICIANS SEE BY THE LOW MEMBERSHIP NUMBERS THAT THE NRA ISNT AS BAD AS THEY THOUGHT....FACE IT, 95% OF GUN OWNERS DO NOT SUPPORT THE NRA....

GoWolfpack
January 22, 2013, 08:43 AM
If that were true then missisippi would legalize slavery.
Only federal law prevents them.
Now I'm really curious. What evidence leads you to believe this?

foghornl
January 22, 2013, 09:04 AM
Hmmm I seem to sort of very vaguely remember something in Federal Law about an "Equal Protection Clause".

Could challenges to the LEO exemptions be brought up this way ? ? ?

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