Cast boolit diameter


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SSN Vet
January 18, 2013, 10:06 PM
I recently purchased a new mold (Lee TL358-158-SWC) to cast this boolit from 75% WWs / 25% pure Pb.....

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=177821&d=1358390258

My boolits are measuring .359" on one axis & .360" on the other (slightly out of round) on the bottom driving band and .358" on the TL grooves.

I will be shooting these from a 6-1/2" .357 mag revolver, which I attempted to slug tonight. But the barrel has 5 grooves, so I can't measure the dia. straight across. I played around with rotating the boolit in the caliper and also dropped the boolit into a drill index and attempted to measure the play in a 23/64" drill index (coming up with ~.356" to .357"), but can't say that's an accurate number.

How can I read my slug, without a hole gage set?

Do you think these boolits are safe to test fire with a modest load (3.7 gr W231) in a 38 spl case?

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USSR
January 18, 2013, 10:15 PM
SSN Vet,

Typically with revolvers, the cylinder throats are the more critical dimension for the proper sizing of cast bullets. You will need a pin/ball gauge to measure them properly. How will you be sizing your bullets?

Don

zxcvbob
January 18, 2013, 10:16 PM
Do you think these boolits are safe to test fire with a modest load (3.7 gr W231) in a 38 spl case?


Yes.

SSN Vet
January 18, 2013, 10:20 PM
I was hoping to shoot them as cast...

I size my other boolits with the Lee push throughs... Unfortunately, I don't have a lube sizer.

billybob44
January 18, 2013, 10:34 PM
Vet, with Lee's Tumble Lube Bullets you are ok shooting them "as cast".
You do need to pick up a bottle of "Lee Liquid Alox", and pan lube your bullets per Lee instructions.

Your bullet design, with the multi "fins" are made to shoot as cast-they need not be sized/lubed with a lubersizer.

Now, don't get me wrong--these tumble lubed loads WILL smoke!!!Bill.:)

rcmodel
January 18, 2013, 10:56 PM
Do you think these boolits are safe to test fire with a modest loadYes.
They are also safe to fire with heavy loads.

Bullet & bore diameter is a non-issue as far as safety of loads is concerned.

If it will fit in the chamber, the chamber throat & forcing cone in the barrel will make it the right diameter for the bore.

Thats why they are called Forcing Cones.

rc

SSN Vet
January 18, 2013, 11:19 PM
Great! I was hoping so, as I loaded 25 @ 3.7 gr. and 25 @ 3.4 gr. last night.....

All of my pistol boolit molds are the TL style and I pan lube with either LLA or Rooster.

I only cast one rifle caliber, and I pan lube those.

Hondo 60
January 19, 2013, 12:19 AM
If they're safe to shoot, why bother with sizing dies?????

GooseGestapo
January 19, 2013, 07:56 AM
I use the same mould/bullet.

I do size my bullets to .358" with the push-through Lee sizer.
I get slightly better accuracy this way.

How accurate? I had to reshoot for qualification in NRA PPC as they changed the classification system last year. (Service and Match Gun classifications).
I shot a 480/35x (480/48x possible) on my first run using the Lee .358TL over 3.1gr of Bullseye which correlates to the 3.4gr of #231/HP38. Firearm is a S&W Perf. Ctr "reworked" Mod 14 with a 4" heavy bbl. With above listed loads it is near 1-hole at 25yds.... Ditto a Zero or Precison Delta 158gr swaged SWC

I believe sizeing the bullet "trues" them up so that accuracy is improved. Also, with some brass, an un-sized bullet will expand the case to the point that they may not chamber in some guns... Biggest reason to "size" the bullets before loading.

wgaynor
January 19, 2013, 07:57 AM
You size to prevent leading.

If you slug your bore, measure the groove size of it, and match it with a bullet that is just slightly larger, you decrease gas cutting. Bullet hardness, velocity, phase of the moon, and the way the wind is blowing seems to also contribute toward leading.

Cast bullets can be fickle. But they are fun.

243winxb
January 19, 2013, 10:21 AM
Safe? Yes. Variations of the amount of antimony in an alloys will produce different bullet diameter as they drop from the mould. Tin, not so much. This also effects bullet hardness. The pressure/ zero will change between batches. This is why we size bullets.

USSR
January 19, 2013, 11:24 AM
If they're safe to shoot, why bother with sizing dies?????

As previously stated, to help prevent leading and for increased accuracy.

Don

GP100man
January 19, 2013, 11:26 AM
Load a few & try em as cast .

As goose said If they`ll chamber your good ,the throat of the cyl. will make em round for the bore!

Your alloy should be in the 10-12bhn so it`s not super hard & just by the act of seating may take care of any parting lines on the boolit.

918v
January 19, 2013, 02:26 PM
Sizing to prevent leading???

Umm, no. Sizing only induces leading. Sizing, by definition, reduces bullet diameter. You do not prevent leading, ever, by reducing bullet diameter.

The purpose of sizing is to make a bullet fit a particular firearm. We use the largest size that fits to prevent leading.

RedAlert
January 19, 2013, 03:19 PM
Yes you can but you need a special micrometer like this one from Starrett:

http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/Precision-Measuring-Tools/Precision-Hand-Tools/Micrometers/Special-Fuction-Micrometers/483MXRL-25

There are other brands that are less expensive, but will function well in the non-industrial environment.

wgaynor
January 19, 2013, 03:55 PM
If the bullet is out of round, sizing it will help prevent leading due to gas cutting around the edges. So yes, size to fit prevents leading.

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook Page 52 states: "It is always better to shoot a round bullet than one that might have even minor out-of-roundness." Reading further, one deduces that the reason being is that an out of round bullet doesn't completely fit the bore and can have gas cut up the sides, thus causing leading.

Walkalong
January 19, 2013, 04:23 PM
Cast bullets are designed to be cast slightly over the diameter needed, then lubed/sized to the correct size, which will also round them nicely since lead and lead alloys have little to no spring back. This can result is a very accurate bullet which does not lead, assuming the alloy is correct for the pressure/velocity, and is lubed properly. I have tried bullets as cast and properly sized, and in general the properly sized bullets shot better.

ranger335v
January 19, 2013, 05:07 PM
Leading is frequently due to a mild load that fails to bump undersize bullets up to obturation. It seems to be "conventional wisdom" these days to have cast bullets 2 or even 3 thou over groove diameter but there's absolutely nothing to gain by doing that. No matter what excess diameter a bullet has it will be corrected by the time it fully enters the bore but a barrel is NOT a good, consistant sizer. Starting at or very close to groove diameter is a good thing.

Any tiny 'out of round' hand gun bullet hardly matters to a full bore size (or larger) projectile so long as the smallest point is the same or more than the groove diameter.

Hungry1
January 19, 2013, 09:25 PM
SSN Vet, That's the boolit I shoot.

I used to size them with a a Lee .358 kit, I don't even bother anymore. I shoot them as they drop after a light coat of Lee Alox. I just squirt a bit and shake 'em around in a plastic bin.

Mine are more accurate when sized, but not enough to justify the time for range blasting ammo.

I recently got the 6 cavity mold for the same boolit. I'm very happy with it. Highly recommended!

I do get some leading, a few minutes with a copper scrub pad around a brush cleans the bore and cylinder up nicely.

Good Luck

918v
January 19, 2013, 09:49 PM
If the bullet is out of round, sizing it will help prevent leading due to gas cutting around the edges. So yes, size to fit prevents leading.

No, sizing an out of round bullet makes the uneven gap around the bullet bigger. So gas cutting increases if the bullet is undersized. The OP's bullet is oversized and there will not be any gas cutting because it will swage down in the cylinder throat.

As far as accuracy goes, what's the difference if the bullet is sized down by a sizer die or the cylinder throat? The difference, if any, will be due to combustion, pressure, velocity, etc resulting from the smaller bullet and not due to a .001" difference in roundness.

USSR
January 19, 2013, 10:42 PM
Oh, good heavens, you REALLY need to spend some time on a cast bullet forum.:rolleyes:

Don

jcwit
January 19, 2013, 11:08 PM
As far as accuracy goes, what's the difference if the bullet is sized down by a sizer die or the cylinder throat? The difference, if any, will be due to combustion, pressure, velocity, etc resulting from the smaller bullet and not due to a .001" difference in roundness.

Yup! Nothing like shootin lopsided bullets even tho it's only .001 and at the RPM's they spin I'm sure they'll get downrange-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Somewhere!



Maybe!

wgaynor
January 19, 2013, 11:31 PM
I agree. The disinformation that I've seen on here in regards to cast bullets only takes away from credibility.

918v
January 20, 2013, 02:46 PM
You people don't understand that an out of round bullet will obturate and conform to the bore and thereby become perfectly round when it leaves the muzzle. That's why Lee TL bullets are successfully deployed as cast.

Walkalong
January 20, 2013, 04:50 PM
Of course it will, but will it start as straight. :confused:

jcwit
January 20, 2013, 05:12 PM
Well it probably will take the path of least resistance.

918v
January 20, 2013, 05:16 PM
We're talking about .001" which is a miniscule insignificant amount. No bullet comes out perfectly round out of a mold. People shoot as cast all the time. It is a variable that oftentimes results in better accuracy. Some people shoot wadcutters backwards with better accuracy as well.

You are far more likely to induce misalignment in your loading/assembly of the round or even by starting the bullet less than perfectly straight in your sizer die, especially if sizing base first with a nose punch.

ranger335v
January 20, 2013, 06:27 PM
"As far as accuracy goes, what's the difference if the bullet is sized down by a sizer die or the cylinder throat? "

Consistancy of where on the bullet's circumference the 'sizing' occurs.

An out of round bullet won't remain out of round after sizing unless the die is out of round - which is virtually impossible. And, if that's so, it won't matter how perfect the bullet may have been when dropped from the mold.

SSN Vet
January 20, 2013, 08:30 PM
Thanks for all the feedback...

My concern was less about the very slight out if round condition and more about increased pressure do to the over sized boolit. Most are measuring .356" dia., while some .361".

So at .003" over I figured I had better ask.

I'll shoot this first test batch as cast and make sure each of the lighter charges are clearing the barrel b4 pulling the trigger again.

wgaynor
January 20, 2013, 09:12 PM
I'd size them and shoot them. Some people just like to argue.

Ky Larry
January 22, 2013, 12:02 PM
Well, looks like the science of bullet casting has well established rules. Now that were all in agreement I'll just run out and buy a casting set up.:rolleyes:

blarby
January 22, 2013, 12:16 PM
Make sure and buy sizing dies.

:scrutiny:

I'm fairly certain that as a forum we came come up with some consistent advice, once we weed out the disinformation. Believe me- there is a lot over there, too. Nowhere is fact from fiction sorted as veraciously and consistently as THR though- and I believe that to be one of the greatest assets in discussing firearms related matters here. The mods here do a better than most job of keeping it civil and on course.

If they can do it/with Droolits, we can do it here.

I think a cast bullet discussion on the THR level is quite appropriate. We aren't going to get a casting sub-forum, so we get to do it in reloading.

The knife guys don't get a knife bench subforum, so I think thats only fair.

Not really, but it sounds good, right ? :cuss::evil:

I vote that be the first point of consensus : They are "Bullets". There is no enchanted stream of glistening silver kissed by Jeebus and coddled by yearling mermaids anywhere near my house. The fact that we don't go in for any of that crap here might be the very reason we call them Bullets, not drool cups. OR sausages. MAybe we could call them flying beans, blessed by the creator to only hit our targets. :scrutiny:


I have Moulds ( you may have molds- but probably in and around the bathroom, and your breadbox). They are filled with lead alloys, which come from a Furnace. Out of these fall "bullets"- which we use for inserting into properly sized, primed, and charged cases for shooting things with. Unless you are shooting without cases- but I digress. This Mould part may be just me, but dangit, they are certainly called bullets.

SSN Vet
January 22, 2013, 05:16 PM
There is no enchanted stream of glistening silver kissed by Jeebus and coddled by yearling mermaids anywhere near my house.

Sorry to here you have yet to recieve "the gift" :neener:

As for me..... I like to keep my mermaids happy.... and they like me to call their prizes boolits :D


And this from Merriam-Webster.com

mold.... noun

Definition of MOLD
1: distinctive nature or character : type

2: the frame on or around which an object is constructed

3 a: a cavity in which a substance is shaped: as (1): a matrix for casting metal <a bullet mold> (2): a form in which food is given a decorative shape

:neener::neener::neener:

wgaynor
January 22, 2013, 07:58 PM
How about we call them projectiles??? I'd hate for someone to run a 9mm bullet into a sizing die and ask us why it won't shoot! :what:

Walkalong
January 22, 2013, 08:33 PM
I believe this one has been answered.

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