LGS's that fear gouge. Would or will you go back?


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7thCavScout
January 19, 2013, 02:04 PM
Yesterday I went into an LGS that I have done pretty steady business with over the years. I asked if they had any Glock 19 fifteen round mags. I was was shocked when they said "We sure do!" I was even more shocked when he laid a couple on the counter and said, "$53.00 each." I passed and walked out.
I understand it's his store,...supply and demand...etc, etc. Just curious if you guys would or will avoid doing business with a store like this in future. I really liked the store and the owner (up until now that is).

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JohnBT
January 19, 2013, 02:11 PM
I would.

Heck, I'd pay the $50 if I had one gun and no mag.

John

ToraBoraBlues
January 19, 2013, 02:12 PM
I avoid any place of business that tries to use high-pressure or cheap sales tricks. I don't think conning new gun owners is a good welcome or representation of our community either.

Calhoun
January 19, 2013, 02:22 PM
I went to one the other day with that EXACT question. They guy working there said the "bossman" told him to pull them all off the shelf and not sell any till he can figure out what he needs to price them at. "We don't know what he banned the other day," (Nothing) "so he wants to make sure he marks them up right."

Exact words from the guy working there. I told him that I would not be back to find out what the new gouged prices are.

powder
January 19, 2013, 02:42 PM
There are a couple LGSs that I'll do business with, but they are a couple hour ride away (motorcycle fun-ride). They've been gouging around here for years, and most of my firearms and ammo purchases have gone to online vendors.

The LGSs that I frequent have a great business plan: keep prices competitive and MORE people will come in. They WILL have more stocking work to do, BUT they have stayed in business with increased foot traffic.

Same has gone for the gun shows lately: $5 entry fee to look at $1 a round 5.56 and $1000 for Garands that have mismatched numbers, etc.? A $600 Hi-Point? They have every right to ask what they want, but a slap in the knowledgeable customer's face is just that! Now, $6000 for a SCAR-17? Pfft....

9thchild
January 19, 2013, 02:45 PM
Price gouging is a natural aspect of free markets.

suemarkp
January 19, 2013, 02:59 PM
Is it gouging or normal business? A common business model is to price your current inventory at the replacement cost of the item. That way, you have the money to restock.

It wouldn't surprise me that his restock cost for hi cap magazines is quite high with all the increased demand.

MachIVshooter
January 19, 2013, 03:01 PM
Did he pressure the sale with scare tactics, or was it just a case of the mags being at 2x normal pricing?

Remember, right now most gun shops can't get much of anything in. My good friend who runs the LGS can't get a single Glock, M&P, XD or any black rifle from anywhere. He is staying afloat by selling off his personal stuff and with consignment guns. Obviously, some of the stuff is priced a bit high, and it needs to be if he is to stay in business until things settle down.

JohnBT
January 19, 2013, 03:11 PM
"$53.00 each."

Maybe he paid $45 each for them just to have some available for his customers.

To quote Arnold Jewell one more time, "They cost what they cost."

CharlieDeltaJuliet
January 19, 2013, 03:15 PM
I had a local gun store owner go into a insane rant with a new customer, I was just standing there in awe as he dropped every racial term and stark raving mad per epsilon about revaluations in the bible, I had to quit frequenting his store. Sadly I spent quite a bi of money, usually $1500 every six to eight weeks on ammo and gear.


If it were just price gouging, I would simply mark it off as supply and demand. I either would or would not buy. I pass on a lot of firearms because they get marked up more by LGS' , I try to give them all the business I can without breaking my budget.

mnrivrat
January 19, 2013, 03:20 PM
When I pull up to the pump the gas prices can easily be higher than yesterdays price. That is also for the same gas that was in their tanks from the day before.

It's not just what they pay for it, it is what they have to pay to replace it.

AlexanderA
January 19, 2013, 03:23 PM
It didn't appear that the LGS in the OP was using deceptive or high-pressure sales practices. Sure, they marked up the magazines, but that's to be expected in today's atmosphere. You have the choice to buy, or not buy. By not buying, you're gambling that prices will come down soon. That's not a very good bet, even if no restrictive legislation is passed.

mrvco
January 19, 2013, 03:43 PM
Considering the current state of supply and demand, I wouldn't consider that an unreasonable price if you "need" a spare mag. Otherwise I'd just wait for the current O'panic to subside.

ToraBoraBlues
January 19, 2013, 03:45 PM
I know price gouging is what will happen in a free market sometimes. But I will take pains to avoid that for the sake of my own wallet and I will steer newbies to where they can get a good deal.

larryh1108
January 19, 2013, 03:46 PM
Since you went in yesterday I'd be willing to bet that all of his original stock was long gone and when he ordered new stock, his prices jumped. The price you saw may be a mixture of higher costs on his end and not knowing if he can get a replacement if he sells it. These times a guy has to do what he has to so he can stay in business. You can't make profit selling from an empty shelf.

Birch Knoll
January 19, 2013, 04:16 PM
Just curious if you guys would or will avoid doing business with a store like this in future. I really liked the store and the owner (up until now that is).

Would you have been happier if when you asked if he had any magazines, he told you "No, they all sold out weeks ago at regular price. I have no idea when I'll get any more; could be weeks or months. Too bad you weren't here when I had them"?

You wouldn't pay the increased price because you didn't need the magazines that badly. The next guy in the door might need them badly enough to pay that price. Had they been priced normally, you, the-guy-who-doesn't-need-it-so-badly, would have the magazines and the guy-who-needs-it-badly wouldn't. I fail to see how that is a more desirable state of affairs.

Things are worth what someone is willing to pay for them. If no one will pay $53, they won't sell, and he'll lower his price. If people will pay $53, then that's what they're worth.

meanmrmustard
January 19, 2013, 04:54 PM
When I pull up to the pump the gas prices can easily be higher than yesterdays price. That is also for the same gas that was in their tanks from the day before.

It's not just what they pay for it, it is what they have to pay to replace it.
One must also take into account the cause, direct or indirect, that causes the inflation or fluctuation in the first place and ask "is this right, or am I being screwed?"

KTXdm9
January 19, 2013, 04:56 PM
Considering the current state of supply and demand, I wouldn't consider that an unreasonable price if you "need" a spare mag. Otherwise I'd just wait for the current O'panic to subside.
Best post of the thread. Plus, I'm gonna steal your "O'panic" quote.

barnbwt
January 19, 2013, 05:08 PM
I had a "tale of two cities" experience with two separate gunstores this morning. One in the boonies, one closer to downtown DFW.

The place in down town has about a dozen ARs, M1As, AKs, FNARs, and other EBRs of various alphabetical nomenclature. They have multiple dozens of shotguns, bolt rifles, lever guns, many kinds of pistols, and lots of ammo.

They have 50rnd boxes of 5.7x28mm SS197SR ammuntion for 100$--I'll leave it at that.

The other store deals more with used/milsurp guns than new stock. Ordinarily has a couple dozen Mosins and other historical bolt guns, several dozen ARs/AKs, a decent supply of fairly expensive ammunition, and a good smattering of lever guns and pistols (long guns are their primary focus). They were out of damn near everything. The only non-oddball ammo they had was Persian surplus 30-06 corrosive-berdan-primed, which will be too hard on my FN49. The only bolt guns left were a Steyr M95 (in weird chambering), an Italian Carcano (in weird chambering), an Arisaka. Even their K31 had sold. Even their MAS49/51 in 7.5 French had sold (quickly). And now they have nothing left to sell. The owner is reducing the number of days a week he opens; there's plenty of business, but nothing for customers to buy. He says that he will hopefully get some new stuff from his distributors in a couple weeks. I sure hope he can pay his bills and retain his employees that long.

I saw a Five-seveN pistol sell for 4000$ dollars at a gun show today. It's incredible what even the smallest hint of fear for one's self will do to peoples' sanity. Any seller who doesn't exploit this irrational demand is only hastening their own demise, righteous though they may feel to the end.

TCB

LemmyCaution
January 19, 2013, 05:09 PM
I'm not in need of anything at the moment, but when I went into the LGS to see if there was anything I might like to spend my year end bonus on and saw an M&P15 sport for sale for $3000, I resolved not to patronize that particular shop again. Someone along that supply chain was making a rather extreme margin on that firearm (likely the end link), and I'm not going to reward any particular link in that chain. They can learn from that what they will.

Let's say the panic subsides, and M&P15 Sports are again selling for $600-700. Is the one in the shop going to still be marked at $3000 (reflecting the dealer's supposed acquisition cost), or is it going to drop back where it was the day the shop owner took the $650 tag off and put on the $3000 tag?

Yes, 'free' markets allow for gouging. Yet another reason 'free' markets aren't all they're hyped to be.

Birch Knoll
January 19, 2013, 05:24 PM
That $3000 price tag means that there is still an M&P15 available for sale. If it was still priced at $700, it would be long gone.

Remember that the gun dealer probably can't replace that M&P15, not at any price. It may be the last AR-15 he'll be able to lay his hands on for weeks or months. If it sells, he may have to pay his mortgage and feed his family on the proceeds from that rifle for quite some time, because if there's nothing for him to buy, there's nothing for him to sell.

And of course once the panic is over and supply can once again meet demand, prices will drop back to normal. But right now, when there are ten buyers for every one gun, how do you propose the imbalance be dealt with? Should dealers just sell to the first guy in line, ignoring the other customers who offer to pay more for scarce items?

If you had a new-in-box unfired M&P15 that you wanted to sell today, what price would you be asking? $700?

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 19, 2013, 05:28 PM
My LGS advertised a Bushmaster AR today for $835 today. It was gone in an hour.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
January 19, 2013, 05:33 PM
I agree Birch Knoll, I sold a S&W M&P15 standard model (not sport) to a guy I know from my LGS. He called asking about it, I told him I didn't want to part with it. He kept on, then finally offered $1800 for the rifle. I promptly ask him where he would like it delivered.

My point is, that I know unless I pay an outrageous amount of money I cannot replace it. I luckily have a few more that fit the bill. I just hate to get rid of any firearm, but I have no problem doubling my money on a used rifle either. While I will miss it, I had already replaced it with an Hk.

c1ogden
January 19, 2013, 05:37 PM
I can see his side. Like JohnBT said, he might have paid $45 for them just to have them for his customers. Even in cases where the store does raise it's prices don't forget that the store owner is probably looking at not having any product to sell once his current stock is depleted. In his mind, and very likely in reality, he is looking at going out of business when his current supply is gone.

I have a friend who owned a gun store a few years ago. He didn't raise his prices in 2008 when we had the last run on guns and ammo. When he ran out of ammo he found that he couldn't get anymore at a decent price. As he explained to his customers "Yes I could have gotten more .22 ammo but I would have had to charge $24/brick just to break even and I didn't think tha was fair to my customers who had been paying less than half that just 6 months ago." He couldn't get any more guns either and he lost his store.

j.kramer
January 19, 2013, 05:38 PM
i want .89 cents a gallon of gas again
this prices are madness

beatledog7
January 19, 2013, 05:40 PM
Let's say the panic subsides, and M&P15 Sports are again selling for $600-700. Is the one in the shop going to still be marked at $3000 (reflecting the dealer's supposed acquisition cost), or is it going to drop back where it was the day the shop owner took the $650 tag off and put on the $3000 tag?

Are you suggesting a profit margin cap? That's about a step short of total (aka Government) price controls.

There's nothing that says a seller can't strive for maximum margin on items he sells. In fact, that is exactly what he should do. If it's marked above what the market will bear, he either marks it down or accepts it into permanent inventory.

If you had an item to sell on eBay, and the price escalated to way over what you thought it would bring, would you contact the buyer and have him send just the amount you thought you'd get? Or would you happily take the money that the item was considered to be worth by that buyer? If you say you'd take that windfall, you're just like the guy with the M&P15. If you say you'd discount the item back to a price based on your acquisition cost, you're nuts.

Lupinus
January 19, 2013, 05:53 PM
There is a gouging and there is insuring he both has the funds available to replace them and the operating budget to stay in business with reduced inventory moving.

53 dollars doesn't seem like a gouge, it seems like a realistic price increase.

200 dollars is price gouging. 130 for a beat up issued AR mag is price gouging. 53 bucks? Sucks, but I'd not call that gouging.

mastiffhound
January 19, 2013, 06:17 PM
I visited Kames Sports this week and was appalled. I've been going there for a long time and they have the best prices that I can find, that is until this week. When I went in and seen Tapco AK mags going for $55 and Thermold AR mags (the ones they give away free when you make a purchase on the net or are $5 or less on CDNN) for $40 I just left. I will not go back. I find it sickening. Two weeks before the prices for such things were the same as always, I picked up the Tapco AK mags for the everyday price of $16.99 a piece (more than they are usually on the net at $11.99) and the counter person told me that they were not going to raise prices, gouging customers is wrong. Let us remember S&W, STAG, COLT, and every other maker didn't raise the MSRP and are not charging more for their firearms to distributors or gunshops. It is the distributors or gunshops that are gouging. PERIOD.

This week I asked what happened. He said he didn't know what happened he said he came in last week and the price changes were already taking place. He said the owner didn't want to miss out, especially when other stores are making so much money. I understand raising prices, but tripling them is crap. I won't shop at Kames again. You can go up a little but this 200% or higher increase of prices isn't justified by the "I'm just keeping things on the shelf" argument. This will drive your customers away.

Have fun when prices go back down. You will not be open for long, as your previous customers like myself have found places like my 2nd favorite local gun shop that although the prices went up, they didn't go up any more than 20% to 30%. So when your greedy dirtbag owner suggests raising prices like Kames tell him you like having a job and if he likes having his business he won't screw over loyal customers. Keeping things on the shelves is an idiotic argument. Guess what, no one buying anything at all now because you've become a ridiculous moron will cause you to go out of business even faster.

Birch Knoll
January 19, 2013, 06:21 PM
You can go up a little but this 200% or higher increase of prices isn't justified by the "I'm just keeping things on the shelf" argument.

Hey, guess what? You just found a case of AR-15 PMAGS in your basement. How much will you sell them for today? The current market price, or 20% over the price on 12/13/2012?

Queen_of_Thunder
January 19, 2013, 08:02 PM
Made a stop at a gun shop in Central El Paso. A Wyndham (sp) AR for over $3200,Glock 19 mag for $99.95,Glock 20mag for $49.95, .223 no name ammo $1.00 a round,Remington UMC for $1.50 a round and the worse thing was CCI 325 round box of 22lr for $79.95. Ouch.

Birch Knoll
January 19, 2013, 08:04 PM
Yes, prices are ridiculous, because demand is ridiculous. Only a fool would buy now, unless he thought had to.

Don't be a fool.

clutch
January 19, 2013, 08:13 PM
I am of two minds on this. Normally I would think a standard markup over cost with an eye forward to replacing stock is reasonable, but when the buyer is apt to sell it for 2x on gunbroker then maybe it is time to share the profits.

If the gun shop picks the wrong strategy and pricing, the marketplace will decide if the shop continues to do business when things get back to normal.

Clutch

jasonmha
January 19, 2013, 08:43 PM
Some of these arguments I'm reading on this forum are ludicrous. People should pay multiple times the price of something in order to support a LGSs family and employees because they just aren't sure when they will get new supplied in stock? That ain't helping a LGS out, it's like a reverse Obamacare!

Having to charge a little more to cover the cost of buying new products that are suddenly being charged a higher price -- ok. Having to pay more for a product because it costs more for the LGS more to obtain it now than it did a few months ago -- ok. Private stores charging gunbroker prices just 'cause -- you can kiss my business goodbye.

Yeah, certain store in Jacksonville, Florida charging $5,000 for a Sig 716 rifle that was $3,800 two weeks ago, that was $3,000 a few days before that, that was $2,000 a month ago. You just lost my business forever.

Steve H
January 19, 2013, 08:51 PM
Is it gouging or normal business? A common business model is to price your current inventory at the replacement cost of the item. That way, you have the money to restock.

It wouldn't surprise me that his restock cost for hi cap magazines is quite high with all the increased demand.


That what I'm thinking. It would be nice to see what his supplier is charging him.

Redlg155
January 19, 2013, 08:54 PM
In the end, no one really wins.

Sell at pre-frenzy prices and brace for the lean times sooner.

Sell at hyper inflated prices and you soon find that there are a limited amount of folks who can afford a mid 2k AR or $5k FN Scar. You may sell your inventory, but now you are just as stuck as the first guy.

Unfortunately guns are not considered essential items for survival. Try price gouging after a natural disaster with gas, food or building materials and you will have the state after you, or at least in Florida.

Both are bracing for the inevitable...no inventory to sell.

Both are at the mercy of the manufacturers. The maket will even out when supply keeps up with demand, and the dealers who charged too much will make ammends with the buyers.

Want some good deals? Start combing the pawn shops when things get back to normal. Buyers will return to the gun store where he paid $1800 for a $800 AR and get offered $600.

Killian
January 19, 2013, 09:01 PM
A common business model is to price your current inventory at the replacement cost of the item.

So in an environment when we don't know if supplies will return to normal in 6 months to a year, or if the item will be banned altogether, then the replacement cost would be Infinity. Since it is unknown what the replacement costs will be. Therefore charging the equivalent of a trip to Jupiter and back might be appropriate.

TanklessPro
January 19, 2013, 09:59 PM
I'm friends with several LGS owners and their biggest worry is remaining open because of low stock availability/future of the gun market. When prices started going up one owner removed all the normal mags,ammo,and black rifles and said they were no longer for sale. He said he did not want to sell and item and then see the buyer making a huge profit when he sold it on GB. He was also worried about his own stock.
I have a question for the OP. Why were you buying the mags?
1--- your worried about getting them if they are banned? If so then you should have been prepared, knowing it was a possibility. If you don't like the price don't buy.
2--- you lost or other mags broke? If so they are worth $53

If you don't like $53, I bet you of find some 10 round mags for close to what you paid for before. :D


IMO,I hate to say it but it is only "gouging" if it is required for life.(food/water)
There is only a shortage for the unprepared.

Sam1911
January 19, 2013, 10:12 PM
So in an environment when we don't know if supplies will return to normal in 6 months to a year, or if the item will be banned altogether, then the replacement cost would be Infinity. Since it is unknown what the replacement costs will be. Therefore charging the equivalent of a trip to Jupiter and back might be appropriate.Might be.

But the flip side of that argument is that you have to find someone who will BUY IT.

As long as people are still paying what you're asking? You aren't charging too much. Period.

An item is only worth what someone will pay for it. Not one penny more, and not less. You, personally, don't want to pay a higher price today than you did yesterday, but someone else WILL, so they get the item.

No dealer will price a gun so high it won't sell. If it sells, that's what it's worth, today, to that buyer. Maybe tomorrow the same gun will be worth 1/6th that price. Is the gun dealer going to hold his maximum price while no one buys? No, because then he'd go out of business. He'll drop the price to find the "market" again.

Sales is a balance. You have to sell enough stock to keep the cash rolling in, but you want to get the most money for each unit sold. Set the price too high and you don't make enough sales. Set the price too low and you don't make enough money in total to keep the lights on.

Bottom line? If it isn't worth that price to you, today, don't buy it. Maybe you can buy it later. Maybe it will cost you more then, or maybe less. That's your gamble. Maybe the owner will make enough on his sales today to live through the lean times that may be coming (OR a glutted market where he can't GIVE ARs away for $600 like we had a year or so after the first Obama panic!) and maybe his guns are priced too high ... or low. That's his gamble.

Getting offended about it is kind of childish.

exdetsgt
January 19, 2013, 10:27 PM
I'm glad I've got a few rifles and handguns and a thousand plus rounds of ammunition. Unfortunately, if prices continue in this nasty upward spiral, I can see myself down the road looking for another sporting activity. One that won't require a second mortgage. And I wonder how some buyers find the money to pay $3000 for a rifle they could have purchased a couple of months ago for $600. Are they going crazy in debt? And I can imagine a few strained marital relationships.

But for me, right now it's no more trips to the range.

MErl
January 19, 2013, 10:31 PM
My ticker has always been back orders or otherwise confirmed prices. those change you cannot be trusted.

Birch Knoll
January 19, 2013, 11:27 PM
Some of these arguments I'm reading on this forum are ludicrous. People should pay multiple times the price of something in order to support a LGSs family and employees because they just aren't sure when they will get new supplied in stock?

Who said that? I certainly didn't. You'll pay what an item is worth to you. If the price is higher than its worth, don't pay the price. Simple.

Having to charge a little more to cover the cost of buying new products that are suddenly being charged a higher price -- ok. Having to pay more for a product because it costs more for the LGS more to obtain it now than it did a few months ago -- ok. Private stores charging gunbroker prices just 'cause -- you can kiss my business goodbye.


"Just 'cause"?? Just 'cause that? Just 'cause the item is now worth more?

Tell me, if you owned a brand-new AR-15 today, say a model that sold for $850 on 12/13, and wished to sell it today, what price would you ask?

Yeah, certain store in Jacksonville, Florida charging $5,000 for a Sig 716 rifle that was $3,800 two weeks ago, that was $3,000 a few days before that, that was $2,000 a month ago. You just lost my business forever.

Why are you offended? If it's overpriced, it won't sell. If it sells, it wasn't overpriced.

Fishslayer
January 20, 2013, 02:38 AM
I avoid any place of business that tries to use high-pressure or cheap sales tricks. I don't think conning new gun owners is a good welcome or representation of our community either.

Avoid? Yes.
Boycott? The answer would be no.

During the Great Ammo/Primer drought of '09 a local store got ahold of what they claimed was "pallets" of primers. They jacked the price up around $8-ish or so overnight. AND bragged about it.

Do I still go there? Yes. They have some great deals on consignment guns.
BUT... they have moved down to the bottom of my list of where to look for any sort of shooting/reloading supplies.

Not saying I would NEVER buy from "Less Expensive Than Soil" but IMO they're a disgusting mob and would be my absolute LAST resort.

DammitBoy
January 20, 2013, 02:46 AM
If I choose to sell anything in this panicked atmosphere, you'd best believe I'd list it at the current market value, not the value of two months ago...

Fishslayer
January 20, 2013, 02:53 AM
If I choose to sell anything in this panicked atmosphere, you'd best believe I'd list it at the current market value, not the value of two months ago...

Boy... I'm sure tempted to unload some stuff. What stops me is the argument that's been made already. How much would it cost me to replace it? WILL I be able to replace it?

I've kinda put away the torch & pitchfork. If somebody wants to pay $100 for an AR mag...:what:

fallout mike
January 20, 2013, 03:06 AM
Someone posted 10 pmags for sale here this morning for $600. All the while westforkarmory is selling them here, still for $14.95 each.

hotrod67
January 20, 2013, 05:47 AM
I must have been in same store in Jacksonville. wanted to buy an m1a but his price for a standard was $4500,he did have two. I didn;t say anything other than no thanks. exercised my right to just walk away.maybe this summer prices will drop.

JRWhit
January 20, 2013, 07:42 AM
When I see a used AR that is in worse condition than if I were to drag one behind my truck for six miles,with a $1350.00 price tag I can't help but have a different perspective of the business. Doesn't mean I won't go back,but thats knowledge I'll use on the next visit. This is a product of a free market. But the result to me isn't any different than if there were fixed prices. Either way I would not view an AR as attainable at this time. With a fixed price, they would all be out of stock. As they are know as result of the panicked masses driving up the price I still consider them unavailable because I'm not willing to pay the increases. Only difference I see is a definite positive, at least with the free market I have and option if I'm willing to pay it. A free market is free at both ends, meaning that if you don't see it as a good deal you don't have to buy it.
On another note, you can easily figure if it is gouging or not by checking msrps. If they have not gone up then most likely the cost to the dealer hasn't ether.

JohnBT
January 20, 2013, 08:49 AM
"All the while westforkarmory is selling them here, still for $14.95 each."

They're sold out now and don't know when they'll get any.

"This item can be backordered, no ETA available, Ordering any color other than black may add months to your order!"

LemmyCaution
January 20, 2013, 10:01 AM
Are you suggesting a profit margin cap? That's about a step short of total (aka Government) price controls.

There's nothing that says a seller can't strive for maximum margin on items he sells.

I'm suggesting nothing of the sort. But you're clearly suggesting I am. I wonder what motivation you might have for so doing?

What I am explicitly saying is that the LGS has permanently lost my business.

Which belies your assertion that there 'is nothing that says that a seller can't strive for maximum margins on items he sells.'

Setting the price for a budget AR at $3000 has had the deleterious effect of losing a $500/yr customer for life. That would appear to be bad business sense. Particularly since no one is going to buy an M&P15 Sport for $3000. The LGS had racks of rifles and cases of handguns, and reloading components and holsters and targets and all sorts of plentifully stocked other products, and had plenty of customers for those products. He was in no danger of going out of business if he sold an AR for a reasonable markup.

He's not in any danger of going out of business because I refuse to shop there, either. But he's lost $500/yr, which will go to his competitors, and he's lost any referral business he used to get from me.

And isn't it a shame that this is the negative consequence of what we'll charitably term 'price discovery.' I'm not a free market capitalist. I'm not, in fact, any sort of capitalist. But I have money to spend on things, and how I spend that money is determined by factors unaccounted for by academic market theories, no matter how doggedly clung to they are.

Birch Knoll
January 20, 2013, 10:15 AM
Setting the price for a budget AR at $3000 has had the deleterious effect of losing a $500/yr customer for life. That would appear to be bad business sense. Particularly since no one is going to buy an M&P15 Sport for $3000.

Got it. Again, I ask you: If you had a new-in-box, unfired M&P15 that you wanted to sell today, what price would you ask?

afponiky
January 20, 2013, 10:28 AM
Good God, stop crying about prices.

If you want it buy it!

If you don't, well then don't.

I'm tired of hearing all the crying about prices. You really didn't need that mag. so don't buy it.


But STFU already.............:cool:

herkyguy
January 20, 2013, 10:30 AM
Yeah, the prices aren't fair at all. Someone should really step in and regulate the crap out of it to protect us, the little guy. Hey, i've got a great idea....the government should step in and mandate gun prices at "reasonable" levels. Maybe a new department or at least a bureau or something..... so we can all get our "fair share."

This line of thinking is absurd. So is any notion that your LGS will forego potential profits.

Someone posted above to exercise your right to walk away. plain and simple.

get over the prices. It's America. It's a free market. Compared to the rest of the world, it's still a beautiful thing.

KTXdm9
January 20, 2013, 10:30 AM
Hooray, another "price gouging" thread! :banghead:

I'd like a beach house in Florida, but prices are out of my budget. Is this price gouging? Of course not. Someone else is willing/able to pay more than I am. That's the great thing about a "free" market. You can decide whether or not to pay, just as the LGS can decide what to charge. Aren't choices grand??

youngda9
January 20, 2013, 10:32 AM
Lemmy....have you ever sold on an auction website?

If so, do you only list your items for a "buy it now" price set to what you believe is a fair market value? Or do you let the bidders do their thing in order to make more money on the sale?

Richard.Howe
January 20, 2013, 10:38 AM
We have every right not to buy from these sellers again.

However.

Capitalism is one of the key elements that made our country great...supply and demand cannot be argued.

http://www.abigailgorton.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/supply-demand-curve-2.jpg

Why do we demand accountability for anti-capitalistic government moves like the Solyndra prop-up, federal bailouts, and crop subsidies, then complain when market forces hurt us individually?

Somehow "bad planning" on gun buyers' part has become "price gouging" by retailers. Price gouging in modern economics involves a coercive monopoly...which does not exist in the case of guns & ammo right now.

Maybe not too popular of a response, but we either love freedom or we don't.

Owen
January 20, 2013, 10:43 AM
Private stores charging gunbroker prices just 'cause -- you can kiss my business goodbye.

Gunbroker prices are actually a very good price signal to a store of what they should be charging, because it indicates what people are willing to pay.

TNBilly
January 20, 2013, 10:51 AM
All said and done - I have to say this a little tongue in cheek - then what this country has fostered on itself is nothing more than good old capitialism..... we gots the power to tax an' regulate so sheeple...... I mean people beware!

On a HIGHER note my son and I visited several LGS & pawn shops in this area yesterday. I'm happy to report prices were pretty well in line with what they were a couple months ago. I don't remember seeing anything more than MSRP in any. The only thing I did note in one shop was they were limiting ammo purchases to 2 boxes per.... quite understandable under the circumstances.

Rezin
January 20, 2013, 10:52 AM
Went to my lgs on Fri. Plenty of everything, price up only modestly.

Elkins45
January 20, 2013, 11:00 AM
How many times do I have to say this? It's not price gouging, it's a complacency tax. People who only decided they "need" an AR or some 10+ mags after the Sandy Hook tragedy simply are paying the tax for not buying them in the years after the 2004 sunset.

If you had a Glock mag on your yard sale table and two guys walked up at exactly the same moment and wanted to buy it, which guy would you sell to? Would it be the one with $10 in his hand or the one with $60?

The market works exceptionally well for revealing the value of goods. If a magazine sold for $53 it's only because somebody thought it was worth that much. I would have no problem frequenting that store again.

larryh1108
January 20, 2013, 11:09 AM
Setting the price for a budget AR at $3000 has had the deleterious effect of losing a $500/yr customer for life.

Ok, let's look at this a little closer. If he does sell that AR for $3000 then the bottom line is he got an extra $1250 profit from that one sale not counting what his profit should have been if he didn't gouge. You spend $500 a year which loosely translates to $125 a year profit a year at 25%. So, in one sale he made the equivalent of 10 years of your purchases. Sounds like a fair deal to me. Chances are you will return when it's back to normal and he has a sale on an item you need. Forgive and forget.

It's a supply and demand economy and right now demand far exceeds supply. Either buy it or walk away. I bet someone will foolishly pay the asking price. Why should he sell it to you for less? Because you're a nice guy who would run to a competitor for a hot sale in a heartbeat?

Manny
January 20, 2013, 11:27 AM
In this atmosphere when a gun store may have limited stock and no idea of when more will be available or how much replacement will cost they damn well better bump their prices if they expect to stay in business. Yes this frenzy was great business for a month or so, but now the shelves are empty, no stock available and the bills still come every week.

Business is always a balance between cost, replacement cost and market price. I respect most those folks who strike a balance between raising sell prices and limiting quantities so they can service thier customers and yet remain in business. You may not like only being able to buy one or a couple, or having to pay 2x what it cost two months ago, but thats the price for not being prepared, as another gent said, a complacency tax.

LemmyCaution
January 20, 2013, 11:41 AM
Got it. Again, I ask you: If you had a new-in-box, unfired M&P15 that you wanted to sell today, what price would you ask?

The price I would ask would be determined by esoteric considerations unaccounted for in your hypothetical question.

But, for starters, assuming I bought it as an end user, rather than an FFL holder, I'd not charge anything more than I paid for it under any circumstances.

But your question is too grossly oversimplified to have a direct answer. The real answer would in part be determined by factors including the identity of the buyer, the political situation at the time, and other factors.

Like I said- I'm not a capitalist, so answers to this sort of question have to be made outside of a capitalist framework. And any answer I would give would be meaningless to a capitalist.

LemmyCaution
January 20, 2013, 11:44 AM
Lemmy....have you ever sold on an auction website?

If so, do you only list your items for a "buy it now" price set to what you believe is a fair market value? Or do you let the bidders do their thing in order to make more money on the sale?

No. I haven't sold at an auction website. And I doubt I ever will. Auctions don't give me enough control over the transaction to suit my desires.

larryh1108
January 20, 2013, 11:57 AM
But, for starters, assuming I bought it as an end user, rather than an FFL holder, I'd not charge anything more than I paid for it under any circumstances.

...snicker...

Sam1911
January 20, 2013, 11:59 AM
What I am explicitly saying is that the LGS has permanently lost my business.Maybe. Maybe. But if you stick to that you'll be one customer in 10,000+ who would actually never buy from him again because he priced an item you didn't buy from him higher than what you thought he should. I walk past items every single day that I won't buy because the money in my pocket is worth more to me than the item being offered for that cash. But unless the shop is continually pricing everything higher than I could get it for elsewhere for the same amount of effort -- I will not forgo shopping there. That would be silly. Good on 'em for making as much profit as they can. Maybe they'll be in business next year when someone else isn't. Maybe they'll expand their store and inventory with the extra cash. Maybe they'll record higher profits and be a stronger firm. That's awesome!

Maybe, when I can't find something ANYWHERE else, they'll have it. I might have to save another week or two to afford it at their price point, but if I NEED it (or WANT it) I can decide to spend the "get it now" cash. Thanks to them, I'll be able to decide that for myself.

Setting the price for a budget AR at $3000 has had the deleterious effect of losing a $500/yr customer for life. That would appear to be bad business sense. Eh...that's a pretty tough concept to sell, as there's very little guarantee that 1 in 10,000 customers will actually refuse to come back ever. And if you do? Well, so what? Others absolutely will and their money will keep him afloat. You and the other handful who refuse aren't keeping him alive. 50 regulars and 50,000 occasional and walk-in customers are keeping him alive. You don't sign a contract to promise to always be a customer and what makes people stop coming, or want to come back, is a complicated set of issues.

Particularly since no one is going to buy an M&P15 Sport for $3000.Oooooh YEAH? See here's the thing...they ARE. If he wasn't selling any at $3,000 the price wouldn't BE $3,000. That's the price at which he is SELLING guns. Not a "don't touch" price that will make them sit on the shelf collecting dust. The fact that YOU, personally, won't buy it for that price machs nict to him.

The LGS had racks of rifles and cases of handguns, and reloading components and holsters and targets and all sorts of plentifully stocked other products, and had plenty of customers for those products. He was in no danger of going out of business if he sold an AR for a reasonable markup.AND, since he's obviously selling AR-15 at that price ... he's in no danger of going out of business if he sells them for that (what you think is an) unreasonable markup, either!

He's not in any danger of going out of business because I refuse to shop there, either. But he's lost $500/yr, which will go to his competitors, and he's lost any referral business he used to get from me.Ehhh, maybe. But if he's got product in stock and others don't? You and your pals will shop there. If he's got good deals on primers or holsters or boot socks? You and your pals will shop there. Shoot, I'll give you much more credit than I believe and accept that YOU never will again. Your pals still will -- and many thousands of others still will. And they'll be back again in a year when he's got stacks of ARs still in their boxes (or used buy-backs) for $600 because the panic is over.

That's the market forces working. We've seen it before, and very recently, too. Are you going to boycott him when he's selling that Sport for $599 because he's pricing it BELOW the market? Surely that's just as unethical?

I'm not a free market capitalist. I'm not, in fact, any sort of capitalist. Yeah, clearly -- and so very little of this will make sense to you. Other economic models, though, require governmental controls to force those structures upon buyers and seller. Absent those controls, people revert to a simple and basic "free market" model because that's what makes the most intrinsic sense. So until we manage to establish the sort of socialist price controls that will command prices to stay "in line" regardless of supply or demand, you've got to live in the world that IS.

But I have money to spend on things, and how I spend that money is determined by factors unaccounted for by academic market theories, no matter how doggedly clung to they are.It doesn't really sound like it. It more sounds like you're a citizen of a free market who's decided that the items being sold are not worth the value of your money in pocket, at current prices. And that's your right. Buy, don't buy -- your choice!

Birch Knoll
January 20, 2013, 12:00 PM
But your question is too grossly oversimplified to have a direct answer. The real answer would in part be determined by factors including the identity of the buyer, the political situation at the time, and other factors.

Oh. My. God.

My question ("how much would you ask for an M&P15 today") is too grossly oversimplified? The whole question seemed very simple when you were excoriating the dealer for asking $3k. You didn't seem to allow that there might be all sorts of factors that go into his pricing. You seemed to think that what sold for $700 last month ought to sell for not a lot more than $700 today. But now you say that the price would vary depending on the identity of the buyer (!), the political situation (isn't that what the dealer is doing?), as well as "other factors". Phase of the moon, I suppose, or maybe what you had for breakfast.

Sorry, weasel answer. You lose.

ID-shooting
January 20, 2013, 12:17 PM
No problem paying higher prices, it is a seller's market right now. Just glad We had most we needed when all this started and it is too cold to want to shoot up the ammo we have.

I have a serious problem with one store in particular. He is situated on a major street and sees lots of drop-in traffic. They have always been known on the fringe, marketing to the "Zombie Apocalypse" crowd. Anyway, stopped in to browse and his store is full of panic buyers. He comes in from the back room wheeling a cart of 7.62x39 import ammo. Prices them $10 per box and announces that he is the only one in town with any and this is the last of it. People line up and buy him out. Funny thing, I had just come from three other places and they had shelves full of 7.62x39 @ $6 per box.

He also has been known to have pulled the panic guns/mags in back and puts them out one at a time @at $1k for AK's, $800 for Yugo SKS's, and well over $2500 for AR rifles. Mags all priced likewise.

He is using scare tactics on the novice and panicky buyers to stuff his pockets. All his staff preach about conspiracies to the unsuspecting.

This guy I have problems with.

Sam1911
January 20, 2013, 12:25 PM
I completely agree with avoiding someone who's a liar and drums up business by misleading or deceiving his customers. But I'd avoid anyone else who did that as well -- not just a gun dealer.

Redlg155
January 20, 2013, 12:26 PM
Scare tatics I detest. But then some would say all is fair and it is the buyers fault for not being educated. He just practicing capatalism.

mgkdrgn
January 20, 2013, 12:31 PM
One man's "gouge" is another man's "I want it more than you do."

If you are only willing to pay $10, and another guy is willing to pay $20 ... why should I sell it to you for $10? (no matter what the "it" is, guns, butter, dozen roses, etc etc)

I put a used Hi-Point 9mm rifle on Gunbroker on a penny auction. It got bid up to over $350 (and yes, I've been paid for it). Should I have called them up and said "sorry, you want to pay too much, I'm going to sell it to the guy that bid $250"?

fallout mike
January 20, 2013, 12:35 PM
JohnBT, they say they are getting in around 200 a week. Im still seeing them available from several reputable businesses for the same prices as before Obama decided to stimulate the economy.

BSA1
January 20, 2013, 12:38 PM
I can't help but wonder if the O.P. has been out of the country for the past month and is unaware of current events.

O.P. is upset at the Glock magazines @ $53.00. Heck he should be glad he isn't buying for a Beretta 92. Regular msrp is $50.00.

You have your choice with today's market. History has shown with past gun, magazine and primer scares that the fear subsides after a few months and as inventory catches up prices will drop.

On the other hand this is the first time that we have a maxist, non-Christian President who has made public statements about his desire to fundamentally change America. Whatever your politcal views are it is certain that Obama will not cease his efforts to impose his radical beliefs on the American people.

Sam1911 said it best; "Getting offended about it is kind of childish."

fallout mike
January 20, 2013, 12:43 PM
I do agree with the bottom line. You shouldn't have let yourself get caught with your pants down.

j.kramer
January 20, 2013, 12:55 PM
i dont understand this threads

i have more than enough weapons and hunderds of mags for each

and thousands of rounds also

if you dont want to pay dont, nobody is forcing you

if you have to buy then pay and support your lgs

if you find something cheap it wont be for long

RBid
January 20, 2013, 01:36 PM
I work in the business. I'm currently working 6 days/week, while things are crazy.

Every day, I hear variations of the same thing:

"Everybody is out of everything, and when I find what I want, the price is so high!"

It's only getting worse, as people continue to consume what's available. At the rate things are moving at, we're going to see Glock 19s and 17s as dry as ARs, soon.

Warp
January 20, 2013, 01:50 PM
Yesterday I went into an LGS that I have done pretty steady business with over the years. I asked if they had any Glock 19 fifteen round mags. I was was shocked when they said "We sure do!" I was even more shocked when he laid a couple on the counter and said, "$53.00 each." I passed and walked out.
I understand it's his store,...supply and demand...etc, etc. Just curious if you guys would or will avoid doing business with a store like this in future. I really liked the store and the owner (up until now that is).

I would much rather they have them available for $53 than be sold out.

If they are sold out they may as well have them with a $1,00,000 price tag, as they are unattainable.

I sold three of my like-new 17 round 9mm Glock magazines on an equipment exchange a few weeks ago. I got $150 for the three, shipped, and they sold the day I posted them, if I recall correctly.

Based on that I'd say his asking price is pretty in line with the market.

youngda9
January 20, 2013, 02:36 PM
Oh. My. God.

My question ("how much would you ask for an M&P15 today") is too grossly oversimplified? The whole question seemed very simple when you were excoriating the dealer for asking $3k. You didn't seem to allow that there might be all sorts of factors that go into his pricing. You seemed to think that what sold for $700 last month ought to sell for not a lot more than $700 today. But now you say that the price would vary depending on the identity of the buyer (!), the political situation (isn't that what the dealer is doing?), as well as "other factors". Phase of the moon, I suppose, or maybe what you had for breakfast.

Sorry, weasel answer. You lose.
Well said. I was going to post a similar response but you beat me to the punch and did a better job of it. His weasel answer (post #62) made me throw up in my mouth a little bit.

thorazine
January 20, 2013, 03:29 PM
If you had a Glock mag on your yard sale table and two guys walked up at exactly the same moment and wanted to buy it, which guy would you sell to? Would it be the one with $10 in his hand or the one with $60?

Trick question!!


The correct response would be...

[X] The hot college chick wearing a bikini. :D

borrowedtime69
January 20, 2013, 03:55 PM
Went into a local gun/ammo store and was sickened by the price gouging going on.

PMC .223 Rem 20 round box, normally $7 - $9 per box, now? $20!

Some of the 9MM and .45 ACP defense loads were 40% - 75% higher than anywhere else

Bulk ammo, ie: russian/chinese stuff was between $80 and $120 higher than another local gun shop that sells what they have at reasonable prices.

Talked to another guy shopping at this expensive place and commented that i hope they use "protection" when they bend their customers over (i cleaned that quote up for being here on THR.org.) I will not go back to this place, even if the price comes down but i may go in and throw comments to the other shoppers about who this company is.

Warp
January 20, 2013, 04:02 PM
Went into a local gun/ammo store and was sickened by the price gouging going on.

PMC .223 Rem 20 round box, normally $7 - $9 per box, now? $20!

Some of the 9MM and .45 ACP defense loads were 40% - 75% higher than anywhere else

Bulk ammo, ie: russian/chinese stuff was between $80 and $120 higher than another local gun shop that sells what they have at reasonable prices.


Was and is it in stock at the other place?

greybeard57
January 20, 2013, 05:36 PM
I'm on both sides of the fence on this issue. I've recently had enough post secondary level business courses to (sort of) agree with the capitalist way of raising prices per current demand even though I'm not comfortable with it. But since I'm still in that post-secondary learning phase I'm absolutely broke and wish it weren't true. ;)

I can see where some of the posters that do have some scruples are coming from though as I too roam around on that side of the fence. I refuse to make as much money from a sale as the market will bear. Yeah, I'll be the first one to say I'm stupid due to that but I have a conscience that I have to live with. A very powerful conscience. I simply can not take advantage of someone for money. Life is too short to screw people for something that transitory. I'm not against making a profit so don't misconstrue what I'm saying; a healthy profit is why folks go into business, the question isn't what the market will bear in all cases however. Things like Pmags are manufactured daily. The MSRP has probably not changed more than what happens for a normal year-end increase (maybe a few %). This alone makes any price more than MSRP price gouging regardless of how you want to classify a free market.

I've noticed that the majority of folks here that espouse a healthy free market system are the ones with an apparently healthy supply of disposable income (one gentleman said he spent $1500 every couple of months on firearms supplies! :what:). The other thing I've noticed is the ones that are ridiculing the 'unprepared' have been in the sport (extremely heavily) for many, many years. I've only been enjoying the sport for about two years now. I'm 56 years old. So I'm not all that familiar with the happenings of 2004, 2008 or any other time of firearm famine. So how was I to know to be 'prepared'?
Gouging really is in the eye of the beholder. But price increases affect the less-wealthy first. If you are well off, being snobbish about it is just as childish as complaining about it.

It is a fact of life here in our free country that we are not all created equal, especially with our ability to earn money. So the wealthy or well-off need to gain a small bit of compassion. And us poor folk need to gain a small bit of understanding. Maybe we can agree to disagree?

:confused::what:

larryh1108
January 20, 2013, 05:47 PM
I ask, who is gouging? I doubt the manufacturer is raising prices much, if any. The LGS is marking his prices according to replacement cost but there are many who are abusing the system to cash in on the mood of the moment. I'm guessing that the distributors are the most guilty here. Unless you are a big dog in the retail world, you are probably buying from a middleman. I'm guessing these are the whores who are driving up the retail prices. These guys don't have their name on the mag (or whatever) and they don't deal with the customer who feels he is getting jobbed. They are the unseen greedy guys who rip off the retailer. It's not fair to blame the LGS except in the cases mentioned here where they clearly decided to stick it to their customers.

Omaha-BeenGlockin
January 20, 2013, 05:57 PM
There's a place I've been doing business for over 20 years----every time there is a panic the prices go up.

I simply stay away and DON'T PLAY THEIR GAME.

When prices come back to the real world--I glady buy from them because usually they are the only ones who have what I want in stock.

You really can't blame a small business for trying to maximize profit--times are tough---I just let someone else pay it.

Warp
January 20, 2013, 06:35 PM
I'm on both sides of the fence on this issue. I've recently had enough post secondary level business courses to (sort of) agree with the capitalist way of raising prices per current demand even though I'm not comfortable with it. But since I'm still in that post-secondary learning phase I'm absolutely broke and wish it weren't true. ;)

I can see where some of the posters that do have some scruples are coming from though as I too roam around on that side of the fence. I refuse to make as much money from a sale as the market will bear. Yeah, I'll be the first one to say I'm stupid due to that but I have a conscience that I have to live with. A very powerful conscience. I simply can not take advantage of someone for money. Life is too short to screw people for something that transitory. I'm not against making a profit so don't misconstrue what I'm saying; a healthy profit is why folks go into business, the question isn't what the market will bear in all cases however. Things like Pmags are manufactured daily. The MSRP has probably not changed more than what happens for a normal year-end increase (maybe a few %). This alone makes any price more than MSRP price gouging regardless of how you want to classify a free market.

I've noticed that the majority of folks here that espouse a healthy free market system are the ones with an apparently healthy supply of disposable income (one gentleman said he spent $1500 every couple of months on firearms supplies! :what:). The other thing I've noticed is the ones that are ridiculing the 'unprepared' have been in the sport (extremely heavily) for many, many years. I've only been enjoying the sport for about two years now. I'm 56 years old. So I'm not all that familiar with the happenings of 2004, 2008 or any other time of firearm famine. So how was I to know to be 'prepared'?
Gouging really is in the eye of the beholder. But price increases affect the less-wealthy first. If you are well off, being snobbish about it is just as childish as complaining about it.

It is a fact of life here in our free country that we are not all created equal, especially with our ability to earn money. So the wealthy or well-off need to gain a small bit of compassion. And us poor folk need to gain a small bit of understanding. Maybe we can agree to disagree?

:confused::what:

Since when is it screwing people to offer anybody in the open market a chance to buy something at the going rate?

Cesiumsponge
January 20, 2013, 06:56 PM
Two of the LGS I go to aren't "price gouging". I can still order Colt 6920s for $1100. Show your support or lack of support for businesses by patronizing them or not.

Sam1911
January 20, 2013, 07:46 PM
And remember, this is a market and there are many points of sale. If one guy prices an item at $3,000 and sells a few, his neighbor will price the same item at $2,990 and sell LOTS. Buying at the lowest price you can find is still following the market.

And so is waiting a few months because you're convinced the price will come down due to changes in supply and demand.

Cesiumsponge
January 20, 2013, 07:53 PM
There are primarily three annoyed demographics with the panic buying:

People who had their normal purchase routines disrupted without sufficient reserves, such as myself (hard to get the ammo I need for some training courses this year. My own fault)
People who are new to these firearms and don't have much of anything accumulated (unfortunate timing)
People who wanted to jump on the bandwagon panic buying but were too late (whiners)


The market is much better off that firearms are still being offered at an elevated price than not offered at all. I bet plenty of folks would scream "there ought to be a law" if all these price gougers simply stopped selling, period.

Warp
January 20, 2013, 07:55 PM
There are primarily three annoyed demographics with the panic buying:

People who had their normal purchase routines disrupted without sufficient reserves, such as myself (hard to get the ammo I need for some training courses this year. My own fault)
People who are new to these firearms and don't have much of anything accumulated (unfortunate timing)
People who wanted to jump on the bandwagon panic buying but were too late (whiners)


The market is much better off that firearms are still being offered at an elevated price than not offered at all. I bet plenty of folks would scream "there ought to be a law" if all these price gougers simply stopped selling, period.

EXACTLY!

I can't believe how many people don't realize this, and I can't believe how many people praise their local store that has nothing in stock or available at all while cursing the guy that has $53 magazines right there on the counter, if you want them.

herkyguy
January 20, 2013, 09:42 PM
I'm on both sides of the fence on this issue. I've recently had enough post secondary level business courses to (sort of) agree with the capitalist way of raising prices per current demand even though I'm not comfortable with it. But since I'm still in that post-secondary learning phase I'm absolutely broke and wish it weren't true. ;)

I can see where some of the posters that do have some scruples are coming from though as I too roam around on that side of the fence. I refuse to make as much money from a sale as the market will bear. Yeah, I'll be the first one to say I'm stupid due to that but I have a conscience that I have to live with. A very powerful conscience. I simply can not take advantage of someone for money. Life is too short to screw people for something that transitory. I'm not against making a profit so don't misconstrue what I'm saying; a healthy profit is why folks go into business, the question isn't what the market will bear in all cases however. Things like Pmags are manufactured daily. The MSRP has probably not changed more than what happens for a normal year-end increase (maybe a few %). This alone makes any price more than MSRP price gouging regardless of how you want to classify a free market.

I've noticed that the majority of folks here that espouse a healthy free market system are the ones with an apparently healthy supply of disposable income (one gentleman said he spent $1500 every couple of months on firearms supplies! :what:). The other thing I've noticed is the ones that are ridiculing the 'unprepared' have been in the sport (extremely heavily) for many, many years. I've only been enjoying the sport for about two years now. I'm 56 years old. So I'm not all that familiar with the happenings of 2004, 2008 or any other time of firearm famine. So how was I to know to be 'prepared'?
Gouging really is in the eye of the beholder. But price increases affect the less-wealthy first. If you are well off, being snobbish about it is just as childish as complaining about it.

It is a fact of life here in our free country that we are not all created equal, especially with our ability to earn money. So the wealthy or well-off need to gain a small bit of compassion. And us poor folk need to gain a small bit of understanding. Maybe we can agree to disagree?

:confused::what:
I'm not being snobbish but I don't believe it's our place to push some moral code of selling conduct on a private business.

That is just plain creepy.

greybeard57
January 20, 2013, 10:12 PM
Sorry herkyguy, I didn't mean to insinuate anything.

greybeard57
January 20, 2013, 10:33 PM
Since when is it screwing people to offer anybody in the open market a chance to buy something at the going rate?

If it was simply offering a product on the free market for an adequate profit that's what it's all about. If it was a one of kind thing, go for it, the skies the limit, if it's a run of the mill something that is simply back ordered then it's taking advantage of somebody. I, for one, refuse to take advantage of people because I'm pretty comfortable with who I am. It may be morally acceptable, but it's not ethical in my book.

Frogomatik
January 20, 2013, 10:34 PM
had a conversation with a a shop owner a couple weeks ago. some of the highlights of that conversation...

"I'm not selling anything in bulk to singular buyers, I want to put as many guns into the hands of as many different people as I can"

"ammo is not for sale unless you are buying a firearm. I have 2 boxes of 5.56 for each EBR on my shelf that are only for sale with the rifle. I want to make sure new gun owners can at least have some amount of ammo"

"I don't want to sell my entire inventory to 3 people so they can gouge the <[i]deleted[i/]> out of perspective gun owners"

as a side note, he's the only shop around that hasn't been stripped bare. And his prices, while inflated a little, aren't outrageous.

Warp
January 20, 2013, 10:40 PM
If it was simply offering a product on the free market for an adequate profit that's what it's all about. If it was a one of kind thing, go for it, the skies the limit, if it's a run of the mill something that is simply back ordered then it's taking advantage of somebody. I, for one, refuse to take advantage of people because I'm pretty comfortable with who I am. It my be morally acceptable, but it's not ethical in my book.

"Adequate profit"? What the heck is that?

It isn't taking advantage of somebody to charge what the market will bear as a result of supply and demand.

What ammunition will you sell me? At what price? I want ammo but I don't want to pay the market price right now. Can you put your money where your mouth is and sell to me at below market price, pretty please?

I'll take quality .22lr, .223, 5.56x45, M2 ball, 12 gauge buck or slugs, 9x19, or .45 ACP

JohnBT
January 20, 2013, 10:45 PM
"if it's a run of the mill something that is simply back ordered then it's taking advantage of somebody"

How does setting a price 10x the MSRP take advantage of anyone at all? The shopper isn't forced to buy it. Right? Now if the shopper does buy it, then the shopper must think the price is right. Right?

I just don't see how anyone can make an issue out of this.

Birch Knoll
January 20, 2013, 10:45 PM
"Adequate profit"? What the heck is that?

At a some point, you've made enough money. Right?

Warp
January 20, 2013, 10:52 PM
At a some point, you've made enough money. Right?

That must be why so many people refuse raises when their employer offers them.

larryh1108
January 20, 2013, 11:02 PM
At a some point, you've made enough money. Right?

Lol, good one. Let me know when you've made enough money. I'll gladly take some off your hands for you. We want you to sleep at night!

Queen_of_Thunder
January 21, 2013, 01:45 AM
Its been reported that one gun shop here in town was selling AR's people had on layaway at the regular prices to people willing to pay outrageous prices. They then refunded the money to those who had AR's on layaways.

justice06rr
January 21, 2013, 02:52 AM
If they are gouging and would not budge even for a loyal customer, no I'd walk out too. Maybe you could've tried talking to the manager and see if you can at least get a small discount. A business is a business, so they will still try to make money even to the loyal locals.

There are quite a few good LGS's in my area that are not gouging, and those are the places I keep coming back to even if they are out of stock on some guns and ammo. One shop (pawn) sold me a Draco AK for ~$700 when they sell for at least $1500 elsewhere. Another lgs sells new AR's for around $1k. Those are the places I will keep coming back to.

justice06rr
January 21, 2013, 02:57 AM
How does setting a price 10x the MSRP take advantage of anyone at all? The shopper isn't forced to buy it. Right? Now if the shopper does buy it, then the shopper must think the price is right. Right?

I just don't see how anyone can make an issue out of this.

Because its bad business.

You are not forced to buy it, but some people do not know any better unfortunately and would pay that inflated price because they "feel the need" to buy it, or have extra money to afford it.

Just look at whats going on with CTD

Nuclear
January 21, 2013, 03:44 AM
"The market is much better off that firearms are still being offered at an elevated price than not offered at all."

There is no functional difference between selling firearms at a price people can't afford vs not selling them at all.

Yes, SOMEONE is buying them at that price (2-4x MSRP), but they aren't going to be your long term customers, unless prices never come back down, which I doubt.

But yeah, I can walk away. I buy ammo on a regular basis and I stocked up on ammo and mags when it became clear Obama would probably win. It was derided as "panic buying" then, but I got the mags and ammo at very near the normal prices.

The people who can't walk away are those whose precious few mags are busted, who've run through their smaller stash of ammo (because they don't have the means to buy in bulk), who just got into the shooting world because of age or need for self defense. "Here's a great gun for X! Did I mention it will cost as much as your rent for 3 months, you only have the one magazine (so baby it), and ammo, if you can find it, is too expensive to practice with. Have a nice day!"

I mean really, people are always coming down on car salesmen gouging consumers, but even they don't charge twice what the MSRP is.

Fishslayer
January 21, 2013, 04:30 AM
Trick question!!


The correct response would be...

[X] The hot college chick wearing a bikini that wants to "work out some sort of a deal.". :D

On topic... I have paid $40 for a MOSQUITO mag! :eek: That's right. Forty freekeeng dollares for a mag for my wife's .22.:banghead: And that was WAY before this panic. Ummm... I actually have a total of $150 in magazines for her $300 pistol.:what:

BHP FAN
January 21, 2013, 04:36 AM
I have a S&W 422 .22 pistol ... mags are $45.00 each, and I have three. It doesn't make much sense to have a magazine fed pistol, and not have spare magazines. It's like owning a .38 snubbie, and no speed loader.

greybeard57
January 21, 2013, 05:00 AM
Like I said it still isn't ethical, but that's what this world has come to...

An adequate profit is something that greedy people will never understand, I feel sorry for all of those types. The ones that feel a maximum profit has to be made even if it means being unethical. There have been a few businesses like that described here in this thread. However, the folks that came down on me, even if in an amiable way, will never understand the meaning of being fair, or ethical, with others. Don't get git yer panties in a twist because I said that either. If you do, then the truth must hurt. An adequate profit retains loyal customers and gains new loyal customers. An adequate profit is the kind that a business owner like what Frogomatik described makes. :eek: That type of businessman is rare in today's environment however.

If one doesn't care how much one pays for things then I suppose one would buy their stuff at the highest price that could be found and walk out smiling. That, at least, will give bragging rights. But as I said, the well-off understand greed better than compassion or fair play. :cool:

Of course nobody ever said life was fair. I've never expected it to be, but then, what's fair for one economic sector is a rip-off to another. I haven't always been broke, just since the company I worked for for 25 years closed the door two+ years ago. Now I'm in college getting my BAS in IT, 3.98 GPA I might add because I'm proud of that fact. However, because I've been on the well-to-do side and the po-folk side, I can see things; maybe better, maybe not, but I've seen both sides regardless. :p Nevertheless, this isn't about me because I have and had what I needed or it's on back-order.

What justice06rr and Nuclear said is true. There is a segment of the present situation that doesn't have the knowledge to know what's good or bad, price wise. Of course thinking about those people in a favorable, maybe even compassionate light, would be outright weakminded I'm sure, after all, they should do their homework before going out to purchase something. Therefore, the gouging is not screwing everybody, just the ones that aren't knowledgeable. That makes it all better I guess. :)

Lost cause. I didn't intend this to be a lesson in moral decency. I was simply saying that only the greedy think that gouging is a good thing and publicly condone such behavior. But I suppose I should have known as much. Greed rules! :D

So, I stand corrected and applaud the reasoning and logic I've heard here today. It helps me understand just a bit more why this country is in such a sad state of affairs. It's all the random acts of kindness....:banghead: ;)

Sam1911
January 21, 2013, 06:42 AM
One shop (pawn) sold me a Draco AK for ~$700 when they sell for at least $1500 elsewhere.Dude, you got HOSED!

Dracos were under $300! I think your pawn shop gouged you!

Hacker15E
January 21, 2013, 06:52 AM
I'm on both sides of the fence on this issue. I've recently had enough post secondary level business courses to (sort of) agree with the capitalist way of raising prices per current demand even though I'm not comfortable with it. But since I'm still in that post-secondary learning phase I'm absolutely broke and wish it weren't true.

Hopefully, then, your business classes instructed about the difference between "purchase cost" and "replacement cost" of stock on hand in a store.

evan price
January 21, 2013, 06:53 AM
What some call gouging is actually market economics and capitalism at work.

Why should a gun shop put stuff out at a price that is half the market price, so some guy can buy it, walk across the street, and double the price? The shop owner has overhead, and he's going to be staring down the barrel of a minimum 90-day scarcity of merchandise, maybe a lot longer.

If pmags are not worth $53 nobody will buy them. If ARs are not worth $1800 nobody will buy them. If you don't like the prices then don't spend your money. If enough people don't buy, maybe prices will come down sooner. It's the law of supply and demand.

Let's be honest- anybody who didn't see this coming was asleep for four years.

Sam1911
January 21, 2013, 06:54 AM
There is no functional difference between selling firearms at a price people can't afford vs not selling them at all.And yet, SOME people ... MANY people ... CAN afford them at the prices being charged. That's the point.

Look, three months ago you could have bought a really decent AR for $800. But that's not FAIR! I couldn't afford one at that price! Where's MINE? Guess that's ok, because YOU could afford one?

But now they're $1,800, and that's now out of YOUR price range...so yes, now it is unethical gouging?

Is "ethical vs. unethical" a judgment based on which percentage of the population is left out in the cold, unable to purchase it? In that case, I know folks for whom any gun at all is beyond their means! Woah, the dealers must be gouging on ALL guns because some folks can't afford ANY of them! This is worse than I thought! ;)

Yes, SOMEONE is buying them at that price (2-4x MSRP), but they aren't going to be your long term customers, unless prices never come back down, which I doubt.Wait, let me get this straight...the guy who has $3,000 to spend on an AR is less likely to be a good customer than the guy who doesn't have that kind of disposable income? Ohhhkay.

I hear this "long term customers should be treated better..." sort of talk, but it sounds like sour grapes and elitism to me. I WANT Mr. Rolex to run out and spend $3,000 on an AR! Maybe he didn't own one before. Well, now maybe he's got a different perspective in the voting booth! A customer is a person with cash to spend. The more cash to spend, the better a customer, in general.

evan price
January 21, 2013, 07:01 AM
I've said this before and I'll say it again- all of y'all that want to bash on people for gouging-

I have 7.62x51 ammo in sealed battlepacks- South African.

Anybody that wants it, I will sell it to your for the price I paid for it years ago. iirc, it's $200 for 980 rounds plus shipping.
However I only accept payment in pre-'64 US silver dollars, halves, quarters or dimes at face value. Since those coins are still usable at face value, anybody trying to say they are worth more is obviously a gouger.

Any takers?

JRWhit
January 21, 2013, 07:30 AM
I think all lot of these are apples/ oranges. There is a supply demand curve at work here but there are also gougers. The shop that follows this curve is reasonable in practice. The shop that hides all but one in the back so that a false sense of scarcity seams to justify the price, which in some cases are much higher than than the general curve, are I little shady in practice. The worst gouging I've seen is F2F sellers. Used bushmaster .223, 4x tactical scope, fore grip, and 1000 rds of cheap bulk, and the guys asking $6500.00.
I'm sorry that far exceeds the supply demand curve. But I can just see him as an idiot and be fine with that. What gets me raving about it is when a panicked patron pays the guy his ridiculous asking price and validates the pricing,at which point other sellers will follow.

larryh1108
January 21, 2013, 07:44 AM
If a guy has to pay his rent in 10 days and is out of work and decides to sell his AR to pay it, he has some choices.

He can sell it today for $1000.
If he waits a few days, he can sell it for $1200
If he waits a week he can sell it for $1500
If he holds out for as long as he can he could get $1800 for it.

Which should he take?

goon
January 21, 2013, 08:00 AM
One of my very good friends manages a gun store in my hometown. I talked to him today and he is sold out of every semi-auto rifle, most handguns, and all magazines including ten rounders (PA has no magazine capacity restrictions).
They have to pay what they have to pay to get what replacements in they can get, and things sell out immediately.
I don't blame gun stores for this situation.

Birch Knoll
January 21, 2013, 11:07 AM
He's probably going to stay sold out, too. The firearm distributors that dealer buy from are pretty much out of stock on any semiautomatic rifles or pistols, as well as most revolvers, save some single-action models and derringers. I can't order a Glock at any price.

RSR, one of the biggest distributors in the country, carries 1,669 models of handguns. At this time, there are 5 models in stock. Five. Three of those are .22s.

So, when you see a dealer who has increased his prices, try to remember that what he has in the display case may be all he has to sell for a while.

larryh1108
January 21, 2013, 11:31 AM
I have to wonder how many of these overpriced guns are going to first time gun buyers? I can't see any of "us" paying double for anything mainstream that was 50% less in November. I doubt investors will pay 2x MSRP as a potential profit in the coming years. So, is it a first time buyer who has no points of reference who is paying these prices? Does that mean the gun community is expanding in leaps and bounds? Will this swing more votes our way in future elections because we have so many new gun people in our ranks? It has to make you wonder.....

heavydluxe
January 21, 2013, 12:32 PM
I sincerely hope that all of you who are "never going back" to certain gun stores are the same kinda people who would pay a reasonable markup to buy from the same gun store before the craze.

Most of us figure out what we want, then shop like heck for the LOWEST price. Why is it ok for us to do that - expecting all gun shops to eek out minimal margins - but it's not ok for them to profit from a buying craze?

larryh1108
January 21, 2013, 12:59 PM
I sincerely hope that all of you who are "never going back" to certain gun stores are the same kinda people who would pay a reasonable markup to buy from the same gun store before the craze.

Most of us figure out what we want, then shop like heck for the LOWEST price. Why is it ok for us to do that - expecting all gun shops to eek out minimal margins - but it's not ok for them to profit from a buying craze?

I'd say with this perfect analogy that this thread has been fully answered. Well done.

Warp
January 21, 2013, 01:24 PM
Because its bad business.

You are not forced to buy it, but some people do not know any better unfortunately and would pay that inflated price because they "feel the need" to buy it, or have extra money to afford it.

Just look at whats going on with CTD

If it is bad business you don't have to do a darn thing other than 'not buy'

Whining incessantly on the internet isn't necessary for things to run their course.

Warp
January 21, 2013, 01:26 PM
I sincerely hope that all of you who are "never going back" to certain gun stores are the same kinda people who would pay a reasonable markup to buy from the same gun store before the craze.

Most of us figure out what we want, then shop like heck for the LOWEST price. Why is it ok for us to do that - expecting all gun shops to eek out minimal margins - but it's not ok for them to profit from a buying craze?

That's too much logic for this situation. Won't work. It's like trying to use logic on antis who scream about gun control being 'for the children'. You are going to have to use emotion to get through.

oneounceload
January 21, 2013, 01:35 PM
One thing about raised prices I haven't seen mentioned is the store owner's REPLACEMENT costs for the goods being sold. If his costs to get more inventory are going up, then he needs to raise his prices NOW to reflect that

If he buys item X for $1 and sells it for $2, and now his cost for X will be $2, he needs to raise his price to $4 to keep his business model and profit/cost ratios intact, and be able to buy more goods when available

And let's not forget all the new taxes that went into effect a few weeks ago - thanks to the health care. $63 (IIRC) per person increase in payroll taxes, 40% increase in base premiums for most health care insurers, etc......

Bubba613
January 21, 2013, 02:56 PM
Wholesale prices are actually not that much higher. In some cases yes, but generally not. What has changed is that you can't get anything. Once you sell the Glock/magazine/box of .45 that's it. No telling when you can get more. If you don't charge a high markup then you can't sit empty as long.
Also, if you charged, say, $8, for a box of .223 some jerk will come along, buy all of it and then resell it to his buddies for $18 ea. Somehow that's OK. But when a dealer does it it's "gouging."

ID-shooting
January 21, 2013, 03:06 PM
Wholesale prices are actually not that much higher. In some cases yes, but generally not. What has changed is that you can't get anything. Once you sell the Glock/magazine/box of .45 that's it. No telling when you can get more. If you don't charge a high markup then you can't sit empty as long.
Also, if you charged, say, $8, for a box of .223 some jerk will come along, buy all of it and then resell it to his buddies for $18 ea. Somehow that's OK. But when a dealer does it it's "gouging."
You need some new "buddies" lol.

Me and my friends will toss each other box of rounds as the need arises. The cost might be they buy burgers that night or toss me a box of whatever when you get some. If cash mush be exchanged, my friends get cost. Not a dime more.

Legitimate price increases aren't in question here. It is the artificially withholding inventory to create the illusion of depleted shelves the scare/bully the unsuspecting into over paying. That is too underhanded for my tastes and has made me take the "low road" in more than one shop lately.

BCCL
January 21, 2013, 03:12 PM
There is no such thing in reality as "price gouging", there is simply demand exceeding supply until scarcity causes a price increase.

This is when the "I want it for only what I want to pay" crowd complains.

You never hear complaints when supply exceeds demand until abundance causes price cuts (on sale), not once in working in a retail gun shop did I hear "Now wait, that price is to low, I demand to pay you more"...........

Sam1911
January 21, 2013, 03:36 PM
Legitimate price increases aren't in question here. It is the artificially withholding inventory to create the illusion of depleted shelves the scare/bully the unsuspecting into over paying.Seems there's lots of different things in question in this thread.

From lying about being the only guy in town who has something, or withholding stock so it looks like there's a shortage when there isn't (is that a real thing? Who has enough stock on hand to withhold any?) -- which we probably all agree are pretty unethical, to a lot of people who are very upset and calling folks names if they see a price on a gun raised to what the same gun is selling for on Gunbroker or at the shop across town.

Bubba613
January 21, 2013, 05:14 PM
You never hear complaints when supply exceeds demand until abundance causes price cuts (on sale), not once in working in a retail gun shop did I hear "Now wait, that price is to low, I demand to pay you more"..........

You hear plenty of complaints if you;re a dealer. "That darn so-and-so tells me he can buy it for $10 less at Dick's. <deleted>

BCCL
January 21, 2013, 05:36 PM
Uh, that's not the same thing.

That's a reflection of competition between suppliers.

rugerdude
January 21, 2013, 07:10 PM
Are you going out and selling off your high-demand items right now for crazy prices? Why not? If pricing high is unethical then price low and sell immediately.....oh what's that? You wouldn't sell at any price? Congratulations, the AR or AK etc. you're sitting on for your personal use is worth $1800 or $2500 bucks to you (or whatever price you aren't selling it for), so how can you be surprised when an AR is worth that much to somebody else?

The only people to blame for this current gun market are the buyers. We did this to ourselves. I've never seen so many NIB guns on armslist from private sellers who are more than happy to make the money that the dealer didn't. Even if the gunshops did price things at pre-scare prices they're just doing some other guy a favor who will just buy stuff to flip it. They might as well hand out money with each sale.

I have a bunch of guns I could make a tidy profit off of right now, the problem is that I'm not sure when if ever I'll be able to replace them (private collection). I'm not even speaking of politics either, I'm more concerned that for a good while after supply catches up that people will have gotten a little too comfortable with the current market and may want to continue making a little more on certain things. There might be a small wave of panic-buyers selling things off but they will be the ones demanding $1200 when the same rifle sits on a store shelf for $900. In the end I think many people will hold onto their scare guns just to avoid the black eye of straight-up losing $600 on an impulse.

One thing is certain though, it will be a looong road to recovery. While demand can shoot up in one day, supply can not.

Bubba613
January 21, 2013, 07:26 PM
Uh, that's not the same thing.

That's a reflection of competition between suppliers.

Uh, no. Suppliers have nothing to do with it. It is exactly the same thing. Just in reverse.
When supplies are tight sellers are in the driver's seat. When supply is loose buyers are in the driver's seat. There is competition for product just as there is competition for buyers, just at different stages of a market.

Warp
January 21, 2013, 08:19 PM
Uh, no. Suppliers have nothing to do with it. It is exactly the same thing. Just in reverse.
When supplies are tight sellers are in the driver's seat. When supply is loose buyers are in the driver's seat. There is competition for product just as there is competition for buyers, just at different stages of a market.

And supplies are only "tight" because BUYERS jumped their demand up exponentially.

Elkins45
January 21, 2013, 08:34 PM
I can still order Colt 6920s for $1100.

You can order them. Can you actually receive them?

I sold a used semi auto rifle recently at a profit. A guy chastised me because "Buds lists them for less," totally ignoring the rather obvious fact that they are out of stock on the Buds website and doubtlessly will be for months. I politely inquired why he was bargaining over my used gun instead of running right on down to Buds with cash in hand to pick up a new one.

Not surprisingly I did not receive the courtesy of a reply.

ID-shooting
January 21, 2013, 09:05 PM
Seems there's lots of different things in question in this thread.

From lying about being the only guy in town who has something, or withholding stock so it looks like there's a shortage when there isn't (is that a real thing? Who has enough stock on hand to withhold any?) -- which we probably all agree are pretty unethical, to a lot of people who are very upset and calling folks names if they see a price on a gun raised to what the same gun is selling for on Gunbroker or at the shop across town.
Well, just got home from one trusty LGS, bunches of 7.62x39 ammo, big stock of AR mags and....even two AR's on the shelf. One was a Bushmaster for $1600 on consignment and the other a "Palametto" i had never head of before for $800. Price increase, sure. Crazy high, no. NIB mags with green followers were $19.99. $35 for double stack pistol mags. Even had some Springfield M1A's for a cool $1200. He seems to have plenty on his shelves without gouging up to $3000.

Besides, the lying and withholding were from a different store than this one but I was referring to the same place in both posts.

BCCL
January 21, 2013, 11:57 PM
Uh, no. Suppliers have nothing to do with it. It is exactly the same thing. Just in reverse.
When supplies are tight sellers are in the driver's seat. When supply is loose buyers are in the driver's seat. There is competition for product just as there is competition for buyers, just at different stages of a market.

In your example, when a customer tells a dealer (retail supplier), that he can get something for less money elsewhere, that's a reflection of competition between suppliers for that customers business at the retail level.

My example was when supply/demand work in a customers favor, to bring lower prices at the retail level, they never protest that by demanding to pay more than the retailer is asking.

To separate things, although when demand swings to far either way, it can allow retail suppliers to be less flexible in pricing up, up or down, if they know their competition can't go much more either way also.

Nuclear
January 22, 2013, 04:14 AM
To be clear, I can afford to pay $1800 for an entry level AR, but I have enough lowers as is. If some ignorant person wants to pay that, fine. But what disgusts me is that there are people who are just getting into the shooting world because of age (just turned old enough to buy a gun) or need (like they have a stalker) who are getting ripped off. We keep telling people the best way to defend themselves is with a gun, and then charge them 3 times what that gun (and the ammo for it) cost a month ago! How is that good for the shooting community?

I don't always buy from the lowest price source, because I like to support locals and good customer service & relationships with sellers are worth something to me.

And no, I'm not going to go sell my guns, because I only buy guns I think I want and sell off the ones I don't want as soon as I figure that out. I did sell a fellow shooter some ammo I no longer had a gun for at the price it was selling at before the insanity. Undoubtedly I am a moron and anti-capitalist.

Auto426
January 22, 2013, 04:23 AM
My local gun shops weren't exactly cheap the begin with. When I was out looking for my first AR, a Colt 6940, I found exactly one in stock with a local dealer at a gunshow. He had it marked at $1800. I ordered the same rifle online for $1300.

I haven't even bothered to see what the current prices are. I've skipped the last couple of gunshows because I don't want to wait in line for an hour just to walk around and see people selling guns for 2x to 3x their normal prices.

greybeard57
January 23, 2013, 04:29 AM
Just got all my homework for the week done and I see the passion hasn't diminished here. :) or is it :cuss: ;) It's interesting how people respond to assumed slights or how they take things that are strictly in black and white text (or whatever colors a browser is set to display) as personal affronts. :eek: And from people that we don't even know what they look like. :confused:

Some folks here have to prove something it seems by jumping on and ridiculing whoever doesn't agree with them. Unfortunately some of those folks also have positions with the forum. That's too bad as they are the ones that are supposed to be setting the example.

I'm not trying to yank chains here or anywhere; life's too short to be an ass, but that's because I'm older and don't have anything left to prove.

My point of posting here again is to say that gouging is unethical and probably immoral. But some good points have been made in it's defense. However, nobody has adequately (WOW! there's that word again! :eek:) explained what gouging is or at least what's considered gouging.

My view of gouging is when the supply line prices remain the same, despite demand, but the end-user ends up paying much more than would be normally charged, for whatever reason. This does not mean that proprietors are not free to raise their prices to cover costs of renewal of stocks. Not at all. But get real, they chose to be in the firearms business, nobody but farmers are guaranteed a paycheck. If they are hoping to stay in business because they have two $6000 Stag AR's on the wall then they have piss poor business sense in the first place. If they want a steady income they should sell flowers. At least nobody gripes about $60 a dozen roses when it costs less than two dollars to raise one flower. :rolleyes: Or maybe they should have a good banker and keep an open line of operating capital available ;). Trying to stay afloat by taking advantage of a short lived opportunity is a good way for the bank to come a-knockin however. And although the firearms industry is growing (at least it seems so these last few weeks) that does not mean that customers are infinite. Maybe in the large cities some of you live in but not around here; the customer base is very finite here, and word of mouth will make a business or break it. They gouge around here and they won't last long. There I go talking about making just an adequate profit instead of the ...other thing. It's true they can try for as much profit as possible today or they can live frugally to sell for a long while into the future by being closer to 'honest' in their business dealings. That's their choice.

12gaugeTim
January 23, 2013, 05:06 AM
It's just supply and demand. Demand has increased dramatically, and supply had decreased dramatically. The gun store owners are in the business of making money, just like everyone else, and the simple fact of the matter is that they aren't going to sell p-mags for less than 75 each when they still can't keep them on the shelves for that price.

The only thing gun owners can do is sit out the storm and let your dollar votes do the talking. But as long as people are willing to buy p-mags for 75 each, people will be willing to sell them for 75 each.

JRWhit
January 23, 2013, 06:47 AM
The only people to blame for this current gun market are the buyers. We did this to ourselves. I've never seen so many NIB guns on armslist from private sellers who are more than happy to make the money that the dealer didn't. Even if the gunshops did price things at pre-scare prices they're just doing some other guy a favor who will just buy stuff to flip it. They might as well hand out money with each sale.
I guess I should clarify. We talk about the end result which is high prices and scarcity. I don't argue that the higher prices are justified by the demand right now. While there are some out there trying to take advantage by single handedly driving the demand price to ridiculous levels, my frustrations aren't targeted at shops. What they have, for the most part, is the result of my frustrations. So many people needlessly panic and think they need to buy every last bullet off the shelf. I would wager a good percentage of the crazed buyers have boxes of ammo that won't fit in any gun they have. I can understand, given the current climate, why ARs and high cap mags, and certain pistols would be scarce. But in my area you cannot find the following; brick or box of 22 rimfire, 9mm, 38, .357,,O.K. wait, this will take too long. What you can find if you look hard enough: 454 casul, 44mag sometimes, certain rifle rounds in the less popular calibers. Thats about it. No powder, no primers, no brass, No bullets, no reloading presses and thank God, given the number of people rashly buying reloading equipment,no reloading manuals. In short your right. It's a result of the buyers. But it's the result of that, that is frustrating to the regular sporter.

Sam1911
January 23, 2013, 07:06 AM
My point of posting here again is to say that gouging is unethical and probably immoral.Ok. But that doesn't seem to be an opinion you've supported with an ethical argument, and I'm not sure how you'd construct a MORAL argument about the requirement to sell a luxury item below the market at all. At any rate, you can say, "It's my opinion that..." or just "I don't like it when..." but so far that's about the only argument that's held up, and it only holds up because it is based on nothing but ir-rebuttable wishes and feelings.

Sort of like me saying, "I don't like lentils." But I can't argue that they are a bad food based on my negative reaction to a personal aesthetic like taste. If others are to accept my view as universally valid, I've got to support it with more than just what my own feelings (or taste buds) say.

My view of gouging is when the supply line prices remain the same, despite demand, but the end-user ends up paying much more than would be normally charged, for whatever reason.But, outside a state-controlled "command economy" the price ALWAYS goes up when demand rises. That's just basic economics. This is the stuff they put on the first few pages of an econ text book -- heck, maybe even in the subtitle to the book itself! It's how business WORKS.

If someone pushes the price beyond that naturally developing "market" their product doesn't sell. If someone pays that "outrageous" price, they are contributing to and informing the new and ever-developing market price.

But the fact that a gun was made for $100 worth of parts and $400 worth of machine time and labor, and can be let out the manufacturer's door for $600 (or whatever) machs nict when there are only 10,000 being made a month but there are 100,000 people trying to buy them. The retail price isn't going to be $600, or $700, or $800!

The same thing holds true when there are 50,000 being made in a month and only 40,000 people want one. It may have cost $600 to put on a dealer's shelf, but he'll be darned lucky to get even that much back out of it and may take a loss just to move the product. None of us come crying to the forums when we are FORCED to pay LESS than we thought we should! Now why is that, I wonder...? ;)

larryh1108
January 23, 2013, 07:47 AM
However, nobody has adequately ... explained what gouging is or at least what's considered gouging.

IMO, gouging is taking advantage of a sudden market change to unfairly charge for a product already on hand for the reason of greed. I do not consider it gouging if the replacement cost is substantially raised for him to replace the product, however. The law of supply and demand is what our retail pricing is based upon so I do not consider a rise in prices, even if it is 2x or 3x the previous price, as goughing. You can choose to buy or not buy that item according to the price you feel is fair, even considering the present circumstances.

To me, goughing is when the prices of items of need are raised to a level where the retailer (or supplier) is lining his pockets in a crisis where we do not have the option to buy or not buy. Items like gasoline, milk, bread and other staples are raised when we hear of an upcoming hurricane or snow storm. In the snow states, if we hear a major snow storm is coming, we go out and buy staples in case we are kept inside for days on end. The grocery shelves are usually wiped out of staples when a snow storm approaches or a hurricane is forecast. If a $2 loaf of bread suddenly becomes $5, if that $4 gallon of milk suddenly becomes $10, etc., that is price goughing. People may have a choice of driving to another town for their needs but chances are that town is out of the product, sold at the regular price. You either pay the piper or go without the food you want. I'd say most people don't need these staples because they have pantries full of food but to triple your prices on staples in a time of crisis is taking advantage of the situation to make profit, not to stay in business and replace the item sold at a higher price.

Gasoline is the best example. We hear an offshore drilling rig is shut down and gas spikes $.20 a gallon immediately. How, I don't know. They say the replacement cost will raise $.20 so it is justified but that gas hasn't even been refined yet, let alone in trucks on the street.

Goughing is when a small town has 3 gas stations and we hear that there is a major storm comming. Fuel trucks are stuck hundreds of miles away due to snow and ice. All 3 stations raise their prices $.40 a gallon in anticipation of the rush. 2 stations are small and run out of gas at 3:00pm. Gas station #3 is a huge station and he is now the only game in town for a few days. He knows this and raises his prices another $.50 a gallon to gouge the panic buying customer. The lines form out onto the street. Everybody just pulls in and pumps and doesn't care (at this point) what the price is.. they need the gas. This is goughing. Raising prices out of greed and no other reason. Being the only guy in town with a much needed item is where the retailer either holds his prices for his customers or he can decide to screw the customers to line his pockets from customers he know will be back when the crisis is over. Either way, he will sell out so he just lines his pocket while doing so. There are laws against this and I saw several stations fined for doing it a few years back when we had unrest in the Middle East.

So, there is supply and demand pricing on optional items (not goughing) and there is taking advantage of the general public on items everybody needs (not optional purchases). That is price goughing because in a few days he gets his tanks refilled at a higher price but the price he sold for was in no way related to the price increase. It was related to sticking it to his customers.

jasonmha
January 23, 2013, 07:48 AM
Just got all my homework for the week done and I see the passion hasn't diminished here. :) or is it :cuss: ;) It's interesting how people respond to assumed slights or how they take things that are strictly in black and white text (or whatever colors a browser is set to display) as personal affronts. :eek: And from people that we don't even know what they look like. :confused:

Some folks here have to prove something it seems by jumping on and ridiculing whoever doesn't agree with them. Unfortunately some of those folks also have positions with the forum. That's too bad as they are the ones that are supposed to be setting the example.

I'm not trying to yank chains here or anywhere; life's too short to be an ass, but that's because I'm older and don't have anything left to prove.

My point of posting here again is to say that gouging is unethical and probably immoral. But some good points have been made in it's defense. However, nobody has adequately (WOW! there's that word again! :eek:) explained what gouging is or at least what's considered gouging.

My view of gouging is when the supply line prices remain the same, despite demand, but the end-user ends up paying much more than would be normally charged, for whatever reason. This does not mean that proprietors are not free to raise their prices to cover costs of renewal of stocks. Not at all. But get real, they chose to be in the firearms business, nobody but farmers are guaranteed a paycheck. If they are hoping to stay in business because they have two $6000 Stag AR's on the wall then they have piss poor business sense in the first place. If they want a steady income they should sell flowers. At least nobody gripes about $60 a dozen roses when it costs less than two dollars to raise one flower. :rolleyes: Or maybe they should have a good banker and keep an open line of operating capital available ;). Trying to stay afloat by taking advantage of a short lived opportunity is a good way for the bank to come a-knockin however. And although the firearms industry is growing (at least it seems so these last few weeks) that does not mean that customers are infinite. Maybe in the large cities some of you live in but not around here; the customer base is very finite here, and word of mouth will make a business or break it. They gouge around here and they won't last long. There I go talking about making just an adequate profit instead of the ...other thing. It's true they can try for as much profit as possible today or they can live frugally to sell for a long while into the future by being closer to 'honest' in their business dealings. That's their choice.
+1. This thread is the script for Wall Street III.

Sam1911
January 23, 2013, 08:16 AM
To me, goughing is when the prices of items of need are raised to a level where...
So there we have it. "Gouging" doesn't, and cannot, apply to guns in almost any reasonably foreseeable situation.

As we've said all along, an AR-15 is a LUXURY item. So "gouging" is simply not applicable.

BCCL
January 23, 2013, 09:33 AM
It's not applicable on "items of need" either. :)

Something being perceived as more immediately needed, doesn't excuse it from normal market forces either.

12gaugeTim
January 23, 2013, 11:51 AM
I'm amazed by the people in this thread expressing distaste at "price gougers", and even going as far as calling them immoral and unethical. Saying that it springs from greed.
"Price gouging" originates at the sources of supply and demand. Period. The middle men gun store owners are just following the flow of a free market, which says that because of a spike in demand, there will be an increase in price. If a stranger walked up to you and offered you $900 for an AR15 you own, you wouldn't sell it, because you know that at a gun show you can sell the same rifle for $2000. The market sets the price, and if you're selling for below that price, you're giving away money.

ETA: The same logic should apply for full autos. It's not unethical or immoral to sell a registered pre-86 for $15,000 just because it sold for a fraction of that when it was first produced. If you had a full auto you wanted to sell, would you part with it for $500 just because you didn't want to be one of those greedy "price gougers"? No. Supply of pre-86's has gone down dramatically, hence the increase in value.

Robert
January 23, 2013, 11:56 AM
Enough.

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