Combat Revolver ?


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fxstchewy
January 19, 2013, 05:50 PM
What is the definition of a Combat Revolver? I have heard this and that called a combat revolver but what is it really? examples?

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OptimusPrime
January 19, 2013, 05:56 PM
One with that name is the S&W Combat Masterpiece. Became known as the Model 15 when S&W started that naming convention in 1957.
Other than that, I don't what the actual definition would be per se, unless it was one used and issued during a war like the M&P during WWI or the Wembley during WWII. And many during the Civil War of course but I don't think those would be considered modern enough.

rcmodel
January 19, 2013, 05:57 PM
S&W or Colt Model 1917 fought WWI, so that would count I suppose.

S&W Model 10 Military & Police?

S&W Model 19 Combat Magnum?

The fact is though, that any revolver is a combat revolver if it could be used in combat.

rc

sleepyone
January 19, 2013, 05:59 PM
I believe it is a term taken from the Smith and Wesson .357 Combat Magnum revolver, which later became the Model 19. Maybe similar revolvers from other manufacturers were referenced as combat revolvers? Just a guess.

fxstchewy
January 19, 2013, 06:32 PM
Is a GP100 a "Combat revolver"?

lemaymiami
January 19, 2013, 07:32 PM
Here's my own definition (and I was issued a model 10 heavy barrel the last week of 1973.... I was allowed to purchase it the day I retired out in 1995)...

A combat revolver is one that's at least 38 caliber with at least a 4" barrel and absolutely no adjustible sights or any bells and whistles at all... I want a very basic sturdy revolver that can take every bad thing that can happen to a pistol being carried daily when you might have to bet your life on it....

All the manufacturer's designations were purely for marketing purposes in my opinion. If you have a choice always opt for the heaviest non-target barrel that the manufacturer offers for that model.

I'm only familiar with Smith & Wesson (for Ruger or Colt fans... you're on your own....) In blued steel it's a model 10 (the same weapon is also offered in 357mag - someone else will have to provide the model number). In stainless it's the model 64 (and I owned two of those at one time, a standard 4" and a 2" with round butt...).


Colt and Ruger made revolvers that fit the above description but I never owned one and can't name any particular model.

All of the above is just my personal opinion but imagine owning a fine revolver with an adjustible sight... that's been knocked out of alignment at some point... Just not something I'd want to bet my life on, period.

rswartsell
January 19, 2013, 07:56 PM
To some the word combat applies only to military combat, when in truth the term applies to any fight. Smith and Wesson used the name for what became known as the Combat Masterpiece to differentiate from the K-38 Masterpiece. The K-38 was its father if you will. Fashioned for the target range and bullseye competioin, it was so fine a revolver that it was made known to Smith that there would be a demand for such a revolver with characteristics that lent themselves to a fighting gun. Hence the Combat Masterpiece. If a cop gets into a gunfight he is in a form of combat and can be considered to be using a combat weapon.

Using combat as a modifier to imply military only application is something of a misnomer. Using tactical as a modifier in my mind means even less. It has come to common usage for a particular collection of features. I think in reality they have more marketing application than anything more substantive.

P.S. Combat Revolver= a revolver you can fight with.

Jim K
January 19, 2013, 08:01 PM
In the military, the term "combat" is applied to some item intended for use in combat as opposed to something intended for use in garrison, like "combat" boots as opposed to shoes, or "combat" rations, as opposed to the mess hall chow. In the civilian world, a term to hype about anything from "combat" flashlights to "combat" jockstraps. Same as "tactical", another advertising hype term to sell junk to those who want to pretend to be a soldier or police officer.

Jim

msb45
January 19, 2013, 08:58 PM
To some the word combat applies only to military combat, when in truth the term applies to any fight. Smith and Wesson used the name for what became known as the Combat Masterpiece to differentiate from the K-38 Masterpiece. The K-38 was its father if you will. Fashioned for the target range and bullseye competioin, it was so fine a revolver that it was made known to Smith that there would be a demand for such a revolver with characteristics that lent themselves to a fighting gun. Hence the Combat Masterpiece. If a cop gets into a gunfight he is in a form of combat and can be considered to be using a combat weapon.

Using combat as a modifier to imply military only application is something of a misnomer. Using tactical as a modifier in my mind means even less. It has come to common usage for a particular collection of features. I think in reality they have more marketing application than anything more substantive.

P.S. Combat Revolver= a revolver you can fight with.
Totally agree

Target models were intended for the range. Combat models were made for Military/Police use.

Model 19 was the Combat Magnum
Model 586/686 was the Distinguished Combat Magnum

SharpsDressedMan
January 19, 2013, 09:16 PM
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/matquig/DSC06461.jpg

Sam1911
January 19, 2013, 09:36 PM
If I see the term in a gun article somewhere I usually assume the writer's using it to differentiate something he thinks of as a full-sized fighting revolver of ~4-5" barrel, probably with fixed sights and perhaps a utilitarian finish.

As opposed to a small concealed-carry snubby, a precision target-shooting revolver, or a large hunting wheelgun.

I'd say it would almost always be a .38 or .38/.357, but there was a day when the .45ACP moonclip guns were the epitome of a combat revolver.

roaddog28
January 19, 2013, 10:37 PM
I would have to agree that what describes a combat revolver would be fixed sight 4 inch in either 38 special or 357 magnum. When I think of a combat revolver I also think about a police service revolver. Examples that come to mine are the S&W model 10/64 in 38 special and the S&W model 13/65 in 357 magnum. In Ruger it would be the Police Service Six in either 38 special or 357 magnum. In Colt the Police Positive come to mind for me. All of these above examples represent a combat or service revolver.
Of course this is my opinion.
Howard

HILLBILLY-06
January 19, 2013, 10:57 PM
It's called a "Victory model or Victory Pistol" & there's several around for sale here and there. The real great looking ones are quite expensive too.

Byrd666
January 19, 2013, 11:52 PM
Not entirely sure where, or when the term "combat revolver" started. All I do know, per Smith & Wesson customer service, is that the 2 1/2" K frame round butt .357 Magnum revolver I have, is called a Combat model K. And through my research, here and there, the first thing that pops up, is normally a 2 1/2" Smith K frame, round butt, .357 Mag revolver.

I think another call to S&W is in my future Monday morning.

rcmodel
January 20, 2013, 12:48 PM
per Smith & Wesson customer service it is called a Combat model K.
They would be wrong then.

If you have a .357, you have a .357 Combat Magnum. (Later called the Model 19)

If it were a .38 Spl, it would be a K-38 Combat Masterpiece. (Later called the Model 15)

The Combat name originated in 1949 when S&W introduced the K-38 Combat Masterpiece.

The name Combat Magnum originated in 1955 when at the urging of border patrolman Bill Jordan, they introduced the .357 Combat Magnum.

rc

BlindJustice
January 20, 2013, 02:01 PM
Great Brittain used the 455 Webley break open revolvers in WWI. WWII they adopted the Browning Hi-Power but they also had the revolvers in the odd 38 S&W 200 gr. load

WWI - Both the Smith & Wesson and Colt New Service chambered in .45
ACP utilizing half moon clips - just over 150,000 produced.

General Mark Clark carried a 4" M1917 in WWII and the Korean War, Generals get their way.... eh?

Post WWII - S&W produced the 1950 Target as well as the 1950 "Army"
the latter having a 4" Bbl. & fixed sights, compared to the former's 6.5" Bbl. & adj. sights, target hmmer and target trigger.

S&W then built the 1955 Target which became the Model 25 in '57 with a
non tapered barrel.

Today, the Model 22 4" Bbl. fixed sights, and the Model 22 Model of 1917
with 5.5" Bbl and fixed sights are offered.

The S&W "Victory" model .38 Special was issued to USN pilots in WWII.
and of course the USAF used the S&W 38s for security duty at bases.

One could convert any adj. rear sight to the fixed rear like the one offered on the Nightguard series ( avail. at Cylinder & Slide. )

Hmm, guess the S&W Model 58 4" Bbl. fixed sights, seems like a
M&P on Steroids, only N frame I can think of with fixed rear sight.

R-

BlindJustice
January 20, 2013, 02:11 PM
oh, 19th century


Colt 1860 Army .44 ball & cap

Colt Single Action Army
S&W Model 3 (?)
& the Russians bought 150K or so of the
Model 3 in .44 Russian

& the ineffectual 38 Long Colt.

R-

Action_Can_Do
January 20, 2013, 02:48 PM
I would be very hesitant to allow S&W the sole privilege of defining what a combat revolver is. After all, they have a tendency to change what the definition is (fixed sights/adjustable sights, short barrel/long barrel). Also, many, many single action revolvers have been used very effectively in combat.

9mmepiphany
January 20, 2013, 02:51 PM
What is the definition of a Combat Revolver? I have heard this and that called a combat revolver but what is it really? examples?
There really isn't a commonly accepted definition...as you can see from the post here. The term has it's genius not as a defining term so much as a differentiating term, not so much as to it's intended use, but to it's differing features

The term is to separate it from Target revolvers; Hunting revolvers came much later.

I agree with rcmodel above that the origin of the term is based on the S&W naming of their guns prior to using them model numbers. Colt of that time did not use the term for their revolvers and the only gun they have used that term on just meant it was heavier (Combat Commander)

Their M&P line...Military & Police...were never called Combat revolvers. Their Target Masterpieces became the M-14, M-16, and M-17; so the shorter barreled (but still adjustable sighted M-15 & M-18) became the Combat Masterpieces. They continued this naming with the M-19 Combat Magnum...the M-13 (HB M-10; chambered in .357Mag) never got that designation...they couldn't just call it just a Magnum as it might be confusing with the .357 Magnum (M-27) and they couldn't use the word Police in the name as Colt had claim to that already

The current usage has taken a once proprietary term and applied it much in the way we use the term Tactical...which jokingly means, it is painted flat black or FDE

westy39
January 20, 2013, 03:20 PM
The definition of a combat revolver is simply Smith & Wesson model 686.

CraigC
January 20, 2013, 03:51 PM
IMHO, a combat revolver would be one better suited to gunfighting. With little to no concessions made for concealment. That usually means a 4" barrel and at least a .38Spl chambering.


Same as "tactical", another advertising hype term to sell junk to those who want to pretend to be a soldier or police officer.
Or to differentiate combat ready lights like those from Surefire from housewife-ready flashlights like those from Eveready. There IS a difference and we NEED a word to illustrate that difference. Has nothing to do with anybody pretending to be anything. Joe Schmoe who wakes up to a window being broken has just as much a need for a good tough, dependable flashlight as Sgt. Dildong responding to the call after the deed has been done.

BlindJustice
January 20, 2013, 03:54 PM
Let's not get started on S&W Model nmbers, ugh.

ah, Model 15 Combat Masterpiece
MOdel 19 Combat Magnum

686 is DIstinguished COmbat Magnum

oh any ofthese with the adj. rear sight can becomme more
"Combat" ized ,-- first time I['ve used the word that way....

Cylinder and SLide Extreme Duty fixed rear sight fits the exisitng
notch the stock adj. rear sight is in.

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=catshow&ref=ExtremeDuty

the above C&S ED fixed rear is used by S&W on the Nightguard series.

R-

Iggy
January 20, 2013, 04:02 PM
I carried this one for 13 years as duty sidearm. We were in some serious social squabbles and got home OK.

I reckon it qualifies as a combat revolver.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p246/Iggy25/Obsidian.jpg?t=1241981077

Military and Police .41 Magnum (model 58)

9mmepiphany
January 20, 2013, 04:15 PM
Having adjustable sights on a revolver called a Combat revolver never made much sense to me either. That is how I knew that S&W's naming was just that...a model branding.

The Thunder Ranch Specials would be what I would call Combat Revolvers. Nice N-frame follow-ons to the old M-520 and M-58, along with the K-frame M-10 and M-13

BlindJustice
January 20, 2013, 04:53 PM
Iqgy - verra nice 58 always liked that Model
what grips are those?

used in the Russian Military since 1895 the Nagant

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagant_M1895

R-

Driftwood Johnson
January 20, 2013, 05:31 PM
Howdy

As far as S&W is concerned, it's just a marketing term. Here is my Model 19 that I bought in 1975. Notice what the paperwork says.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/smith%20and%20wesson/Model_19-2.jpg

The original idea was, there was only one 357 Magnum, a large frame S&W, built on the N frame. When it was first introduced in 1935 it was simply called The 357 Magnum. That was the model name.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/smith%20and%20wesson/Model%2027/IMG_0222_enhanced.jpg

Later, when a slightly lighter weight 357 Magnum was needed, the Combat Magnum was developed on the slightly smaller K frame.

That's really all there is to it.

Jaymo
January 20, 2013, 05:37 PM
Driftwood, those are some nice revolvers.

Deaf Smith
January 20, 2013, 08:39 PM
What is the definition of a Combat Revolver? I have heard this and that called a combat revolver but what is it really? examples?
Combat as in... Combat Magnum.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=129168&d=1287341282

My M66-1 above on left is a Combat Magnum. The Security Six on the left, aw man it's ever a better Combat Magnum. Both are tight, both shoot right on the money. The M66 takes +P .38s all day and the Security Six uses low end magnums all day.

Yes I could stuff in top .357 loads but I do like my Combat Magnums to last!

They are both good to ride the river with.

Deaf

Iggy
January 21, 2013, 08:30 PM
BlindJustice,

Those are some home made grips.. I couldn't afford factory targets on a cop's salary back in '66.

I destroyed the modified magnas that came on the gun for the hardware.:o

Now those modified magnas would probably sell for more than the gun.:banghead:

w9trb
January 21, 2013, 08:41 PM
How does the L-frame 586 fit into the S&W scheme. We used .38 Masterpieces in USAF and when I got out I latched onto a 586 as it seemed just like what I used in the service, except it was chambered for .357. It has been a very good pistol all these years. I wasn't aware at the time that I was buying an oddball, but it has treated me well.

tipoc
January 21, 2013, 09:13 PM
There was nothing oddball about the 586. S&W produced the 6 shot carbon steel guns with the full length underlug from about 1980-1999. They were sold in a 4", 6" and 8 3/8" barrel lengths. They were the first L frame 357s and named the "Distinguished Combat Magnum". A 7 shot L frame "Carry Comp" 586 with a 3" barrel was also marketed. They were discontinued in 1999.

The stainless steel 686 is the same gun but in stainless and often 7 shot.

The specific name is marketing.

tipoc

w9trb
January 21, 2013, 09:20 PM
Thanks tipoc, I just love looking over these revolver threads, especially when there are photos. True confession, I own a Glock 21, but it is a cold mistress. I just don't feel the love, the Smith just evokes so much of the blue steel and walnut era.

9mmepiphany
January 21, 2013, 10:49 PM
They were the first L frame 357s and named the "Distinguished Combat Magnum". A 7 shot L frame "Carry Comp" 586 with a 3" barrel was also marketed. They were discontinued in 1999.

The stainless steel 686 is the same gun but in stainless and often 7 shot.
The 586 and 686 were both introduced at the same time and their cylinders were chambered for 6 rounds...the 7 shot 686 was the 686 Plus. At the same time, they offered the same gun with fixed sights...these were the 581/681.

The "Distinguished" part of their name refers to the original intent to contest the PPC Distinguished Match (non-bull barrel) against the 6" Python, where the 6" M-19 was at a disadvantage with it's lighter barrel.

rcmodel
January 21, 2013, 10:58 PM
I keep thinking George Patten, Charles Askins, Elmer Keith, Skeeter Skelton, and Bill Jordan didn't have any strange aversion to adjustable sights on a combat revolver.
They seemed to prefer them in fact.
(Askins & Jordan were probably in more gunfights and killed more men then all of us put together!)


I prefer them too!

I have carried adjustable sighted handguns for the better part of 50 years, and have never broke or knocked an adjustable sight off yet.

And I'm getting too old to start doing it now for sure!

rc

CraigC
January 21, 2013, 11:47 PM
I think the adjustable sights on a S&W are robust enough that there should be very little worry about losing zero or breaking them. Even Ruger's aluminum rear sight is pretty tough. I've only seen one break, on my brother's 22/45 but he could break a hammer. To set one's mind at ease, there are steel replacements available from Ruger, Millett (defunct), Bowen and Reeder.

Iggy
January 22, 2013, 01:02 AM
I've managed to muddle along with adjustable sight concealed carry guns for the 36 years since I left LE, without breaking a sight or ripping my clothes drawing the gun.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p246/Iggy25/Keith%20Holsters/Newholsters.jpg

Don't have covered triggers guards on the holsters and haven't shot myself in the butt either.:evil:

rcmodel
January 22, 2013, 01:07 AM
On the off chance you did somehow knock an adjustable rear sight screwy??
So what?

You still got a front sight.
And if you still got a front sight, you still got a combat revolver.

Thats the only thing you should be looking at in a gun fight in the first place!

The adjustable rear only comes into it's own if you want a gun that shoots where it looks at long range with the loads you are using.

And that's always a good thing to have in combat.

rc

lemaymiami
January 22, 2013, 08:01 AM
What I posted earlier was strictly my own opinion (and we'll get back to that opinion in a moment...). I have seen more than one officer's revolver that had the rear sight knocked out of alignment and needed adjustment to get the guy back on target years ago. The problem with all of this, as I see it, is that you'd never know anything was wrong until you tried to hit something using those sights... that's why I prefer a simpler setup for daily carry. Most armed citizens take excellent care of their sidearms (and certainly aren't in the business of rolling around in the gutter with anyone while carrying a weapon). Unfortunately in the world I lived in we jumped, climbed, fell, and did lots of things that were hard on uniforms and the gear. That's the reason I said what I did...

As far as real combat on the street with firearms... I consider a pistol to be what you used when you couldn't get to something heavier. For many years I never went to the party without a shotgun in my hands - and never regretted it. I only fired one shot on the street in 22 years... and that one round of buckshot did exactly what it was designed to do -it ended the confrontation right then. Living with that isn't something I'm proud of at all...

Iggy
January 23, 2013, 12:00 PM
Deleted.. guess I'm a liar.:cool:

JShirley
January 23, 2013, 12:11 PM
I'd be careful about assuming things like kills. I was on a mortar team in combat, and I'm certain there are many THR members who've killed more folks than I.

For what it's worth.

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