Why are shotguns the "Sacred Cow" of gun restrictions?


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barnbwt
January 19, 2013, 08:14 PM
It seems like lawmakers frequently go out of their way to avoid restricting the scatterguns when crafting new hair-brained legislation. Many of the big Grabbers are on record stating they won't touch shotguns*. Why? Are there that many more shotgun owners than riflemen? Are they somehow more legit for hunting? Do lawmakers have a thing for Purdey? Or is Elmer Fudd just such a harmless, unassuming caricature of american sportsmen they don't feel threatened by them?

This special concern has always puzzled me, considering shotguns are among firearms more vulnerable to restriction through minor changes to the NFA regs already in place (DD exemption).

TCB

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Sam1911
January 19, 2013, 08:18 PM
Perhaps because of the very thing you mention. Shotguns are covered by a blanket exemption from the Title II Large Bore Destructive Device classification because they are considered especially suitable to 'sporting purposes.'

Remember, some of the more oddball shotguns were un-exempted as you mentioned, and there was quite a concern about a year ago that the Saiga shotguns were going to get the same treatment.

In the end, though, most of the currently common "scary tactical" shotguns only differ from their "sporting" cousins by mag capacity, and some not even that. Probably seen as too small a nit to pick with such larger targets (pun!) available.

GE-Mini-Gun
January 19, 2013, 08:23 PM
Also some of the most black rifle hating gun owners I know are shotgun shooters

BHP FAN
January 19, 2013, 08:25 PM
like you said, everyone has one. In Australia and England the last thing they tried to regulate was the ''farm gun'' the simple single or double barreled break open shotgun, that nearly every gun owner has at least one of, for durability, and just plain utility.

barnbwt
January 19, 2013, 08:28 PM
In the end, though, most of the currently common "scary tactical" shotguns only differ from their "sporting" cousins by mag capacity, and some not even that.
Well, the same can be said for rifles, but they invariably get the third degree. I really have to wonder if it's because shotguns are seen as less threatening by John Q Dummy out there. Which would be weird because the hole is much bigger ;). Maybe they think they're safer because they "don't shoot through walls like ARs" :banghead: or because the pellets are harmless over 25ft away (video games).

In Australia and England the last thing they tried to regulate was the ''farm gun'' the simple single or double barreled break open shotgun
Well, that actually makes sense, from the standpoint of the Anti's incremental confiscation strategy. O/U's, SxSs, and Single Shots have the lowest capacity, hence they are taken last. But I'll bet double/single rifles were regulated first ;) (no pun intended)

TCB

bassdogs
January 19, 2013, 08:29 PM
It would be a mistake to give the gun control nuts credit for using any common sense, but as for shotguns you have capacity and length of the barrel. Otherwise they are all pretty much the same; semi-auto or pump. Even the short barrel pgo isn't real stealthy. Only the Sega style has removable mags. I agree that if they were to go after anything it would be the Sega, but as long as the mag size meets what ever might be set for hi cap mags it would make no sense to go after the shotgun. As far as I understand, they aren't giving any special attention to higher cal rifles like the 308 vs the 223 so there's no reason to think that the 12g is going to be a target.

Now I go back and remind myself that there is absolutely nothing logical or reasonable about anything they are proposing.

Guvnor
January 19, 2013, 08:30 PM
Another plus is that shotgun ammo seems to be not as affected by panic buying, at least in my experience. I can't get any rimfire or centerfire ammo right now but can still find shells pretty easily.

guyfromohio
January 19, 2013, 08:34 PM
The difference between a hunting shotgun and a tactical shotgun is usually just color and length. The line is too fine.

browningguy
January 19, 2013, 09:47 PM
My Benelli is 8 shots:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jcm9371/BenelliM2.jpg

But my Mossberg is 13 shots of 12 ga. goodness:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jcm9371/MossbergRythym.jpg

Mike OTDP
January 19, 2013, 09:58 PM
Snobbery and ignorance.

Snobbery in that the shotgun sports have more social cachet than other shooting activities. They are social/networking activities, like golf.

Ignorance in that the hoplophobes still think gun=hunting.

Deus Machina
January 19, 2013, 10:03 PM
For the most part, they're look less scary.

Cesiumsponge
January 19, 2013, 10:17 PM
They're associated with shooting clays, which seems harmless enough to the layperson. There is no equivalent in the rifle or handgun world (though I suppose you -could- try shooting a round of clays using a handgun and glaser safety shotshell bullets)

Though shotguns aren't off limits. Didn't someone post the NY revised AWB which included Remington 1100 and Benelli M2's?

Ken70
January 19, 2013, 10:20 PM
You have guys with really big bucks buying shotguns. They tend to be political donors as well. You don't want to antagonize them with taking their guns.

Like when Dick Cheney shot his lawyer friend, Cheney had a $17,000 Perazzi 28 gauge. The lawyer had something equally rich. These are all over and under, two shot, guns. Not as scary as a 30 round mag.

KevininPa
January 19, 2013, 10:47 PM
They'll get to them. One step at a time.

huntsman
January 19, 2013, 11:02 PM
the simple single or double barreled break open shotgun, that nearly every gun owner has at least one of, for durability, and just plain utility.

now that is a great bit of advice and would make a heck of a sales pitch. ;)

bushmaster1313
January 19, 2013, 11:44 PM
Because these pump shotguns have no black plastic they are not military style and do not need special regulation:

http://imageshack.us/a/img560/8407/cimg0971g.jpg

Byrd666
January 20, 2013, 12:08 AM
Double standards. Is a DC norm.

Cesiumsponge
January 20, 2013, 01:18 AM
Because these pump shotguns have no black plastic they are not military style and do not need special regulation
Except trenchguns used "traditional wood stocks" for a hundred years before going to synthetic.

jamesbeat
January 20, 2013, 01:33 AM
In England at least, it was because of rural areas and the rich folk who use shotguns.

A shotgun is an essential tool for a farmer, and a status symbol for the well-to-do.

A shotgun in the States is also a common home defense weapon, and I bet that a lot of people who aren't firearms enthusiasts but are sensible keep a shotgun at home just in case.

Don't worry though, shotguns are on the anti's list, they're just further down...

Ehtereon11B
January 20, 2013, 01:45 AM
I think most politicians are shotgun owners and that is the reason why they are not touched as much. Sure there are some laws that make a typical pump an "assault shotgun" but by and large there isn't much law against them. Even the governor of NY has a shotgun.

gunnutery
January 20, 2013, 01:54 AM
I think even a lot of Dem politicians have shotguns for hunting. They probably think the hunting thing is the only thing that passes the "sporting" test/theory/fallacy.

Call me a tinfoil hat wearer, but I've often wondered if secretly, they leave us the notion that we can always hunt with shotguns and bolt action rifles because they're not well suited for civil war (at least against a heavily armed military such as ours). The most prominant gun grabbers recently have stated "we're not taking away people's guns" while in the same sentence, they call for a ban (or so restricting them so no one can own them in current form) on EBRs.

ljnowell
January 20, 2013, 02:05 AM
I will tell you why, because there are many democrats that need a small amount of rural support. They bank on union member country boys who only own a shotgun for hunting. They have to get those votes so they leave the fuddies shotguns alone. He in rural IL I meet lots of those people. They couldnt give a crap about 10 round magazine restrictions or any of that. "As long as they leave my shotgun alone, I dont care" is the normal refrain.

BHP FAN
January 20, 2013, 02:13 AM
They don't like handguns for the same reasons their forebears, the powerful in Old Blighty didn't like them, they are the weapons of the poacher, and of the thief, and the assassin. They're powerful, yet portable, and easily hidden.

9MMare
January 20, 2013, 02:23 AM
They're associated with shooting clays, which seems harmless enough to the layperson. There is no equivalent in the rifle or handgun world (though I suppose you -could- try shooting a round of clays using a handgun and glaser safety shotshell bullets)
?

Maybe there is....SA revolvers and the mounted shooting sports. (They also have rifle and shotgun).

That's ok...we're rallying our members to fight too.

wacki
January 20, 2013, 02:41 AM
I'm surprised you don't shoot off the end of the magazine. Gotta wonder if you could swing the rifle up fast enough to force that to happen.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jcm9371/MossbergRythym.jpg

X-JaVeN-X
January 20, 2013, 02:44 AM
meh...that's an easy one...everybody knows all you have to do to stop a shotgun attack is stick your finger in the end of the barrel and the assailant will blow himself up (but not actually hurt himself of course). Any cartoon worth its salt has taught us that shotguns are harmless.

Skribs
January 20, 2013, 02:52 AM
I think it's that, with few exceptions, shotguns generally come in the form of something without a removable magazine (well, easily removable) and without much magazine capacity. Barring that absurdly long abberation, the new double-tube bullpups, or something like a Saiga, shotguns pretty much usually have a 4-7 round capacity.

Couple that with the fact that outside the gun industry, I don't think many of the detachable-magazine-fed shotguns are that well known at all, and semi-automatics have an undeserved reputation of not being reliable. Plus the fact that if you ask most people who haven't looked at the recent research what the best weapon for HD is, they'll say "a pump action shotgun." If congress goes after those, people will know they're trying to stop our ability to defend ourselves.

I think this is why shotguns are usually off the list.

gunnutery
January 20, 2013, 04:56 AM
If congress goes after those, people will know they're trying to stop our ability to defend ourselves.

Perhaps you're right, however, I hope people's naivity goes away before it comes to banning pump action shotguns AFTER banning everything else.

I read that CT's new proposed legislation also bans civilians from owning body armor. If they don't want us to defend ourselves with guns, body armor would be the next logical choice as you're huddled in a corner talking with 911 hoping the BG will have mercy on you. I think the introduction of such legislation only proves that they don't want people to defend themselves AT ALL.

Sam1911
January 20, 2013, 10:30 AM
Because these pump shotguns have no black plastic they are not military style and do not need special regulation:

Remember the Miller decision, though! The only reason that the Court allowed Miller's (posthumous) conviction to stand was that his sawed-off shotgun WASN'T something the military would use.

So the Court has ruled specifically that if you want to claim your 2nd Amendment rights, the guns involved NEED to be military-style!

gym
January 20, 2013, 11:16 AM
Many of these guys shoot Trap and Skeet also Birds, so they don't want to mess with their sports ony ours

amd6547
January 20, 2013, 01:12 PM
Once a madman commits horror armed with a revolver and a pump or semi 12ga, all bets are off.

GEM
January 20, 2013, 01:21 PM
Hairplugged Joe Biden has specifically mentioned shotguns will be protected so:

1. The bird and skeet crowd can claim to be gun people who protect the second amendment. I see news folks, Biden, other politicians do the sportsmen act.

2. To deliberately split off the bird and skeet crowd from the gun nuts. It's clear that there are two foci of gun ownership - outdoors and SD. The later is the one despised the most by antigunners. They think they can get the former to go along with ban. Why one can just store the shotgun at the range and go shoot at the mighty skeet!

Of course, there is overlap, I know plenty of outdoor folk who value the true meaning of the Second Amend. but that's the strategy.

Note there is little mention of your 7 mm sniper rifle.

Mr Woody
January 20, 2013, 01:41 PM
Shotguns are not going to be protected; they are just at the bottom of the list to take away.

Divide and conquer

BigG
January 20, 2013, 01:56 PM
Shotgunning is the millionaire sport with membership in a clay target range typical of the high mucky mucks. However many of them have contempt for anybody else's rights besides theirs.

Try looking up some high end O/U shotguns. They have them of all prices up to around the value of a sports car.

herkyguy
January 20, 2013, 02:20 PM
You have guys with really big bucks buying shotguns. They tend to be political donors as well. You don't want to antagonize them with taking their guns.

Like when Dick Cheney shot his lawyer friend, Cheney had a $17,000 Perazzi 28 gauge. The lawyer had something equally rich. These are all over and under, two shot, guns. Not as scary as a 30 round mag.
Thinking about it, I would not be surprised if there were some truth to this....

Bobk538447
January 20, 2013, 02:23 PM
Because Peasants are allowed to own them.

throdgrain
January 20, 2013, 02:24 PM
Please dont allow yourselves to be divided and then conquered. Over here as has been said the shotgun is the last thing to restrict, it even has a separate, easier to get, licence for shotguns only. Only 30 years ago or so I could have bought a licence at a post office, now I have to have background checks, doctors checks, a referee like when you get your passport, and the licence has to be reapplied for every 5 years. Without this, no shotguns. And then, they are restricted to 2+1 (or in the case of my supernova, 3+1, 3.5 chamber).

And this is the easier licence to get.

It's very different in our two countries, but all the same, hang in there guys.

Shooters all over the world are rooting for you.

Justin
January 20, 2013, 03:25 PM
I'm surprised you don't shoot off the end of the magazine. Gotta wonder if you could swing the rifle up fast enough to force that to happen.

Shotgun patterns do not immediately spread out far enough to hit the magazine tube.

The worst that would happen is that you'll get carbon buildup on the top of the extension tube after firing many, many rounds through the gun.

M-Cameron
January 20, 2013, 04:36 PM
the reason they havent gone after shotguns isnt because they care about hunting.....its because they dont want to piss the hunters off......thats why those politicians are always so eager to mention "we arent coming after your hunting guns!"

there are millions of hunters, and just about every hunter owns a shotgun........but just because they own guns, it doesnt mean they are what we would call 'gun guys'...for the most part, so long as their shotguns are left alone, they honestly could care less what happens to the other guns.

they dont want to go after shotguns because it would finally motivate these people to become politically active.

also, its harder for them to all of a sudden go after shotguns because for years and years and years they have been saying " we respect hunters rights, and we arent coming for your hunting guns".....it would be awfully diffucult for them to change tone now.

gp911
January 20, 2013, 05:13 PM
Biden actually said during one of the 2008 debates re: gun control "I have this Beretta, it's an over/under, and if someone came for that little .410 they'd have a hard way to go" (paraphrasing from memory). Shotguns already have barrel length restrictions, etc. They are definitely on the list, probably the last to go except for black powder stuff.

Loc n Load
January 20, 2013, 07:00 PM
U R correct....there are millions of gun owners out there who do not get involved with the fight over "black rifles", magazines, etc....because those things don't interest them or would personally effect them, but if you wanted to take their shotguns, that they hunt with, shoot trap/skeet/clays then u would REALLY see an uprising.
I have been involved in the 2A struggle since the 60's and have encountered countless guy's who had opinions such as I just described.....hard to make them see the "Big Picture".

ridgerunner1965
January 20, 2013, 07:39 PM
a pump shotgun is the most deadly close quarters battle gun ever made.you can reload while the gun is still loaded by pushing shells into it.you can actually shoot a pump faster than a auto shotgun.well i cant but sum guys can.with 00 buck yu can shoot 9 projectiles with every shot.with no 4 buck and a extended mag tube yu can literally lay down a hail of death no ak can match at close range. so whats the deal?

Zardaia
January 20, 2013, 07:50 PM
Because soooo many people own them, including all the "gun guys" that are happy to see other types banned. The sacred cow will be slaughterd too eventualy if the anti's get there way, thy are just going after what they think they can.

huntsman
January 20, 2013, 08:28 PM
they go after shotguns and the states lose major $$ in hunting revenue, same for bolt and lever rifles. One of the smartest things gun makers did was selling the AR as a hunting rifle and that may just save it in some form.

BobTheTomato
January 20, 2013, 08:52 PM
Bolt action rifle and shotguns are seen as implements for hunting. Don't worry. They will try to take them eventually.

Ehtereon11B
January 20, 2013, 11:03 PM
Once a madman commits horror armed with a revolver and a pump or semi 12ga, all bets are off.

Most of the damage done by the Aurora shooters was done with a Remington 870. No whispers of attacking shotguns.

BHP FAN
January 21, 2013, 01:29 AM
''Post #39 is correct

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U R correct....there are millions of gun owners out there who do not get involved with the fight over "black rifles", magazines, etc....because those things don't interest them or would personally effect them, but if you wanted to take their shotguns, that they hunt with, shoot trap/skeet/clays then u would REALLY see an uprising.
I have been involved in the 2A struggle since the 60's and have encountered countless guy's who had opinions such as I just described.....hard to make them see the "Big Picture"...

Anybody here remember Zumbo?

BHP FAN
January 21, 2013, 01:32 AM
http://2alago.wordpress.com/2009/07/03/jim-zumbo-a-cautionary-tale/

crazyjennyblack
January 21, 2013, 01:41 AM
I believe we are overlooking two major factors: Range and penetration. Shotguns are great for short range against bare or thinly covered flesh. However, beyond 75 yards or up against even a soft vest, shotguns aren't as useful as a rifle. Therefore, shotguns seem less of a threat to government. Many people also tend to keep only "hunting" or trap loads around for their shotguns, instead of buckshot and slugs, which further decreases the potential lethality to human targets, especially armored ones.

Also, as stated before, the typically limited magazine capacity tends to affect the perception of these weapons.

justice06rr
January 21, 2013, 01:45 AM
I think mostly because they are low capacity and geared for hunting.

A hunting shotgun is not as tactical and scary as an AK/AR.

Inebriated
January 21, 2013, 02:10 AM
More important question, would be "Why is the AR15 the "sacrificial lamb" of gun control?"

Not that we're going to sacrifice it, of course.

tarosean
January 21, 2013, 02:25 AM
More important question, would be "Why is the AR15 the "sacrificial lamb" of gun control?"

What you mean you cannot hear yours singing from the corner of the room???

Am I evil? Yes I am.
Am I evil? I am man, yes I am.



So many states already have laws regulating shotguns (3 shell capitity, Tube blocks, Shotgun only hunting, etc. etc. etc.)

As for the media, Im pretty sure they have no clue there is a difference between a Siaga and an AK...

evan price
January 21, 2013, 06:57 AM
Because going back hundreds of years, shotguns ("Fowling Pieces") were owned by the rich and upper classes. Hunting was something done by nobility.

Hop on Gunbroker and check out listings for shotguns...sort by highest price first, and surprise yourself at just how much shotguns can cost. Purdeys, Perazzis, Parkers, Piottis, Krieghoffs, Browning Superposed...easily cost what a new car would cost.

The fine old British gunmakers will sell gentleman's shooting outfits that will easily cost in excess of a modest tract home for most of us.

Do you really see the elites, the liberal nobility, banning the things they enjoy? Does anyone believe that if guns are banned and confiscated, that the global elites will see their $100,000 gold-inlayed, hand-crafted heirloom shotgun consigned to the same smelting pot as our $200 mossbergs?

No- they will do what the nobility has done traditionally- ban the guns favored by us lowly proles, so they can still be 'on the birds'.

soloban
January 21, 2013, 09:14 AM
Being the Sacred Cow just means that it will be the last one shoved through the shoot at the slaughterhouse.

huntsman
January 21, 2013, 09:20 AM
I believe we are overlooking two major factors: Range and penetration. Shotguns are great for short range against bare or thinly covered flesh. However, beyond 75 yards or up against even a soft vest, shotguns aren't as useful as a rifle. Therefore, shotguns seem less of a threat to government. Many people also tend to keep only "hunting" or trap loads around for their shotguns, instead of buckshot and slugs, which further decreases the potential lethality to human targets, especially armored ones.

Also, as stated before, the typically limited magazine capacity tends to affect the perception of these weapons.
+1 When it comes to anti-personnel a shotgun gun is viewed a defensive firearm at best while a rifle is viewed as an offensive firearm.

bassdogs
January 21, 2013, 11:32 AM
To each their own, since this is America after all. But that 12 + 1 is, well, pretty much an example of taking a good thing and making it completely useless. Unless you are a Paul Bunyan size dude, that thing be like raising a 4x4 fence post to shoot and would require a tennis court size space to swing. Would be an interesting wall hanger but what's with the color?

jamesbeat
January 21, 2013, 11:59 AM
While all of these points are valid, I'm still confused as to why the gun grabbers have never gone after 'evil black shotguns'?

I mean, we all know that an 'assault weapon' is functionally no different from any other semiauto rifle, so why haven't they tried to ban, say, pistol-grip-only shotguns?

I have a Mossberg 500 with black synthetic furniture and a pistol grip, and these are featured in movies far more than even the Desert Eagle.

I'm certainly not complaining, but it does surprise me that they haven't gone after 'assault shotguns'.

mcdonl
January 21, 2013, 12:05 PM
Shotguns are not going to be protected; they are just at the bottom of the list to take away.

Divide and conquer

Agreed... they are the carrot

huntsman
January 21, 2013, 01:01 PM
While all of these points are valid, I'm still confused as to why the gun grabbers have never gone after 'evil black shotguns'?

I mean, we all know that an 'assault weapon' is functionally no different from any other semiauto rifle, so why haven't they tried to ban, say, pistol-grip-only shotguns?

I have a Mossberg 500 with black synthetic furniture and a pistol grip, and these are featured in movies far more than even the Desert Eagle.

I'm certainly not complaining, but it does surprise me that they haven't gone after 'assault shotguns'.
you are confused because you come to this discussion using logic and facts where the gun grabbers use emotions and feelings that's why there's no convincing them.

M-Cameron
January 21, 2013, 01:11 PM
Quote:
More important question, would be "Why is the AR15 the "sacrificial lamb" of gun control?"
What you mean you cannot hear yours singing from the corner of the room???

Am I evil? Yes I am.
Am I evil? I am man, yes I am.





I've never heard mine singing... But that might explain why "REDRUM" was written on the inside of my safe in cold blue......

Guy de Loimbard
January 21, 2013, 01:41 PM
Only the Sega style has removable mags. I agree that if they were to go after anything it would be the Sega, but as long as the mag size meets what ever might be set for hi cap mags it would make no sense to go after the shotgun.

Sega 12 or Sega 20?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v96/Luteif/Sega12_zps7d32bef1.jpg

jamesbeat
January 21, 2013, 01:47 PM
you are confused because you come to this discussion using logic and facts where the gun grabbers use emotions and feelings that's why there's no convincing them.
Which is exactly my point.
If we assume that they are running on emotion rather than logic, why haven't they come after our scary-looking, not-suitable-for-hunting pgo shotguns?

Sigokat
January 21, 2013, 01:51 PM
The people making or proposing gun legislation, know very little about guns in general. When those people thing about rifles, they think of scary "assault weapons", and want to take them. When they think about handguns, they think about Glocks with 30 round magazines hanging out of the grip. When they think about shotguns, they think about their granddaddy's double barrel or 5 round pump action shotguns. They don't think about snipers, or mass murderers.

In my opinion, that's all there is to it.

jamesbeat
January 21, 2013, 03:58 PM
Yes, I suppose ol' farmer Zeke with his antique sxs is what comes to mind when antis think 'shotgun'.

19-3Ben
January 21, 2013, 04:31 PM
Sega 12 or Sega 20?

I'm so glad you picked up on that as well!!! I used to love my Sega Game Gear as a kid! Sonic the Hedgehog!! Whoooo!!!!!!! The graphics were AWESOME!!!! (yeah, we actually thought that.)

barnbwt
January 21, 2013, 08:17 PM
More important question, would be "Why is the AR15 the "sacrificial lamb" of gun control?"

Well, that's obvious; the AR15 has closest resemblance and function to the main arm of our military, and deep down, Statists fear the citizenry having parity with the military/authorities/regime. Makes sense they'd start with the most "militia-usable" weapon (despite what the Miller ruling makes plain as day :rolleyes:).

Yes, I suppose ol' farmer Zeke with his antique sxs is what comes to mind when antis think 'shotgun'.
We've certaintly established that anti's see shotguns as inherently less threatening (i.e. versions as equally "tacticool" as AR15s/AKs aren't as vilified, even though they were present/used at the last two mass shootings), my original question was why that is the case. I think you're dead on about stereotypes:

-The Hayseed Stereotype name Jethro sitting on his front porch with his boomstick across his lap (as a threat/deterrent to hostile trespassers, btw ;))
-The harmless Elmer Fudd Stereotype with his SxS or SS (blasting indescriminately with his eyes closed at anything that moves, frequently himself ;))
-The civil Wealthy Country Club Elite Stereotype that would never deign to be involved in any sort of crime, whatsoever ;)

Shotguns are associated with all three of these charming American stereotypes (which is weird, because they all use rifles, too :confused:), while rifle owners are associated with:

-The Dale Gribble Stereotype secretly plotting insurrection and weaving paranoid, idiotic conspiracy theories as he quietly reloads his ammo in his fallout-shelter/basement
-The Cowboy Stereotype who self-righteously crashes through town, guns blazin', wounding dozens everywhere he goes, leaving wreckage in his wake. Cowboys use shotguns, too, but lever actions seem much more affiliated with this stereotype than even SxSs do.
-The Militant/Assassin/Terrorist Stereotype which is the truly Very Scary Guy all the legislation being proposed tries in vain to thwart. The character who quietly stews in his own madness and hatred, dropping clues only visible in retrospect, before unleashing unexpected mayhem upon the vulnerable world. Completely unpredictable ahead of time, totally obvious in hindsight. So much so, that basing pre-emptive strategies on the actions of past actors seems certain to prevent another from wrecking havoc on the innocent. This stereotype is based on headlines and thriller novels; the bomb-planting insurgent, the mass-shooter, the professional assassin from the KGB. Even the Patriotic American Soldier is related to this archetype (which again, the Statists want to have nothing in common with ordinary citizens' abilities).

It seems there are fewer stereotypes for rifleman, for whatever reason, and the ones I could think up were not "good guys," aside from the soldier. Problem is, anti's invariably think of soldiers/police as being separate from civilians, and elevated above them (thus deserving of the power/authority derived from firearms possession). We need some humorous rifle shooting cartoon characters:D (even I think that's something of a oxymoron, now that I think about it ;))

TCB

barnbwt
January 21, 2013, 08:22 PM
Oh, I guess this is vaguely related. A Tacticalization project (more an homage) of a beater police-owned Ithaca M37 Featherlight I'll be working on soon;

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p630/barnbwt/Concept.jpg
Which one would Cuomo think is too dangerous for his streets? ;)

TCB

Akita1
January 21, 2013, 08:40 PM
Any lunatic can take out plenty 'o targets at close-medium range with a Remington 870 pump and heavy field or buck shot. For some reason they decided that ARs are special because they are based on military hardware so ignorance dictates...no demands...that responsible civilians have no business owning them.

Brilliant. A significant amount of the civilian technology we use was derived from some military contract somewhere along the way - my two favs (beside my ARs) are GPS and rapid trauma care in the field - how many lives have those two improved/saved in civilian life?. By that logic, we should take velcro away after some moron figures out how to hang himself with it...it came from NASA so…you get the idea.

Logic is the BEGINNING of wisdom, not the end (thank you Spock).

Shanghai McCoy
January 21, 2013, 08:44 PM
To be honost, I prefer the top version...
Just like walnut stocks I guess.:)

barnbwt
January 21, 2013, 09:13 PM
To be honest, I prefer the top version...
Just like walnut stocks I guess.
Not this one. Beat up, scratched up, carved up (PD issue number), water damaged, cracked forearm, and crummy buttpad (fixable, but still). I could maybe save it for something as junky as a homebrew tube-gun build one day. Both sight beads broken off, and vent-rib dented. I figure if I can give it a new life (let alone a unique one) I'm doing it a favor (don't worry, I'm no bubba!;)) It was definitely worth the 150$ I paid for it in this market :D

TCB

oneounceload
January 21, 2013, 09:14 PM
Shotgunning is the millionaire sport with membership in a clay target range typical of the high mucky mucks. However many of them have contempt for anybody else's rights besides theirs.

Try looking up some high end O/U shotguns. They have them of all prices up to around the value of a sports car.


Seriously? Wow, talk about not getting it and spreading BS.
BTW, there are some shotguns that go for over $250,000, but that's something else entirely. So folks who shoot clay targets are mucky mucks?

It is people like you that sem to be the issue, you can't seem to get the fact that some gun owners have more money and use theirs for fun as well. So what? Every gun owner is affected, not just the black plastic crowd.perhaps you ned t learn more. About these " mucky mucks" you seem to hate so much

huntsman
January 22, 2013, 12:17 AM
Which is exactly my point.
If we assume that they are running on emotion rather than logic, why haven't they come after our scary-looking, not-suitable-for-hunting pgo shotguns?
well someone thought the SPA's/LAW's and Street Sweeper were scary enough I can only guess they were viewed as too Military

gunnutery
January 22, 2013, 12:38 AM
Barnbwt, tell me you're serious about the M90 project!

gunNoob
January 22, 2013, 12:41 AM
Shotguns are probably more deadly than most "assault rifles". 6+ rounds of 00 buck can do some damage...

ljnowell
January 22, 2013, 12:41 AM
Seriously? Wow, talk about not getting it and spreading BS.
BTW, there are some shotguns that go for over $250,000, but that's something else entirely. So folks who shoot clay targets are mucky mucks?

It is people like you that sem to be the issue, you can't seem to get the fact that some gun owners have more money and use theirs for fun as well. So what? Every gun owner is affected, not just the black plastic crowd.perhaps you ned t learn more. About these " mucky mucks" you seem to hate so much


Thats a pretty unneeded attack. The point was the elite shoot competitions with thier shotguns at fancy country clubs and whatnot. Probably a good part of congress to be honest. They certainly dont want to ban thier own guns. The same reason the cigars arent taxed to all hell like cigarettes are in this country.

oneounceload
January 22, 2013, 02:09 PM
Thats a pretty unneeded attack. The point was the elite shoot competitions with thier shotguns at fancy country clubs and whatnot. Probably a good part of congress to be honest. They certainly dont want to ban thier own guns. The same reason the cigars arent taxed to all hell like cigarettes are in this country.

Wrong - you seem to have never been to a gun club. if you had, you would see young kids starting out, a lot of older retired folks whose only hobby is clay shooting, along with a LOT or working middle class who believe that shotguns are not just to be made into 18.5" barreled zombie killers. They also don't wear tinfoil hats and think everyone is out to get them. There are more lower middle to upper middle class shooters than upper class, so the "mucky-mucks BS name is an attack on your part. Instead of being derisive and divisive, try being part of the solution to keep all gun owners together. Your attacks are using the same argument you accuse those "mucky-mucks" of using.

Sam1911
January 22, 2013, 04:10 PM
Oneounce, I don't think he was saying that all shotgunners are elitist hypocrites. I think he was intending to say that those member of the gun-banning set that are elitist hypocrites, but who shoot at all, tend to be shotgun games enthusiasts, and so extend a blanket of protection over "their" sport.

That's not terribly clear from his first post, but certainly jibes with some things I've seen and been told.

A certain gun rights activist of my acquaintance once described to me how he'd been invited by knee-jerk Democrat party platform-voting Senators, on several occasions to come down to their cars parked in the Senate parking garage, where they proceeded to show him some beautiful new clays or trap shotgun they'd picked up... TOTALLY oblivious to the fact that possessing such a thing in DC (in the Senate building no less!) would make them an instant felon if caught.

That doesn't make ALL, or MOST shotgunners elitist hypocrites. It just means that there are those in power who tend to be against us but who will make legislative wiggle room to keep their own hobbies and interests out of the cross-hairs.

barnbwt
January 22, 2013, 06:17 PM
That doesn't make ALL, or MOST shotgunners elitist hypocrites. It just means that there are those in power who tend to be against us but who will make legislative wiggle room to keep their own hobbies and interests out of the cross-hairs.

Exactly; we need to get the "important ones" involved in rifle games, so they'll stop trying to ban them outright. Should my next email to a pol include a bet that I'm a better shot than him? :D

TCB

Barnbwt, tell me you're serious about the M90 project!
Sure am. Everything's being disassebled and cleaned as I speak. I'll open a Shotgun thread when there's something to be said ;)

TCB

ljnowell
January 22, 2013, 06:22 PM
Wrong - you seem to have never been to a gun club. if you had, you would see young kids starting out, a lot of older retired folks whose only hobby is clay shooting, along with a LOT or working middle class who believe that shotguns are not just to be made into 18.5" barreled zombie killers. They also don't wear tinfoil hats and think everyone is out to get them. There are more lower middle to upper middle class shooters than upper class, so the "mucky-mucks BS name is an attack on your part. Instead of being derisive and divisive, try being part of the solution to keep all gun owners together. Your attacks are using the same argument you accuse those "mucky-mucks" of using.

Wrong? You should know a lot about that, as you are wrong here again. I belong to a private club. You are preaching about being divisive, with the posts you have made here? Seems to me that you have taken what one person said out of context, attacked, were called out on it, and attacked again. Hmmm, seems to be a real pattern here. I dont think anyone said that EVERYONE that shoots trap is like that. I certainly didnt. Dont let that get in the way of your very non-high road attacks. Here is my post again:
Thats a pretty unneeded attack. The point was the elite shoot competitions with thier shotguns at fancy country clubs and whatnot. Probably a good part of congress to be honest. They certainly dont want to ban thier own guns. The same reason the cigars arent taxed to all hell like cigarettes are in this country.
Can you show me where I said that ALL shotgun shooters are "mucky-mucks?" I bet you cant! Just keep spewing your attacks though. Maybe a moderator will do something about it.

Oneounce, I don't think he was saying that all shotgunners are elitist hypocrites. I think he was intending to say that those member of the gun-banning set that are elitist hypocrites, but who shoot at all, tend to be shotgun games enthusiasts, and so extend a blanket of protection over "their" sport.

That's not terribly clear from his first post, but certainly jibes with some things I've seen and been told.

A certain gun rights activist of my acquaintance once described to me how he'd been invited by knee-jerk Democrat party platform-voting Senators, on several occasions to come down to their cars parked in the Senate parking garage, where they proceeded to show him some beautiful new clays or trap shotgun they'd picked up... TOTALLY oblivious to the fact that possessing such a thing in DC (in the Senate building no less!) would make them an instant felon if caught.

That doesn't make ALL, or MOST shotgunners elitist hypocrites. It just means that there are those in power who tend to be against us but who will make legislative wiggle room to keep their own hobbies and interests out of the cross-hairs.


You may as well give it up. Its obvious that he is the only one here that is right, and if you disagree with him then you have NEVER been to a gun club or you know absolutely nothing. Thats a heck of a way to convince people there is no elitism, isnt it?

Sam1911
January 22, 2013, 06:45 PM
Can you show me where I said that ALL shotgun shooters are "mucky-mucks?" I bet you cant! Just keep spewing your attacks though. Maybe a moderator will do something about it.Jeez, chill folks.

YOU didn't say that but another poster DID. Who knows if he meant it or not.

At any rate, the question's been answered.

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