A Pro-Rights Redditor Attends a Meeting of Anti-Gun Activists


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Justin
January 20, 2013, 12:15 PM
I found the following field report quite interesting. Reddit user MetastaticCarcinoma does an excellent job of showing what we're up against.

http://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/16tlj4/field_report_i_infiltrated_a_gungrabbers_meeting

With permission from the original author, I've reposted the essay in its entirety, as well as uploaded the documents he acquired and then made available. If you're a Reddit member, please follow the link and upvote the original post.

Brothers (and sisters), I have seen our opponents' camp, and read their battle plans.
I got an email for a "Community Committee Against Gun Violence Meeting" in my area, so I thought I'd go and see if this was really about stopping violence, or stopping guns. (TL;DR - they want your AR's, really.) So I thought at the very least I could troll the group of 40 RSVP'd folks. Show up and there are 200 people packed into this church cafeteria. They talked for an hour about how to most effectively reach/influence your legislators, and everyone there hand-wrote a letter to a Colorado legislator. Many sad stories were told, and one of the Columbine victims' fathers was in attendance. Then there was a Q&A, and a Registered Nurse (who treated one of the Aurora victims!) took the microphone to warn people about invading Patient Privacy. Then the only other person there under 50 spoke about Johns Hopkins research on mental health.
I warned them as a medical student about the unintended consequence of driving people underground, away from patient care if they need it. I talked about Vets coming home from wars, worried that a diagnosis of PTSD will rob them of their rights and abilities. I mentioned that Columbine happened during the previous AWB. I told people to turn off the news and stop glamorizing these psychopaths as anti-heros with their faces and names plastered all over the news. (All of this to much nodding from the crowd) Wanted to tell them all to visit AssaultWeapon.info, but I forgot! Facepalm!
Their official goals, in order:
Reinstate stricter AWB & mag caps
Background Checks for Private Sales
"Something" about Mental Health (yes, they know about the Judge adjudication thing)
Assault Weapons Literature
Insider insight:
They've wised up about the toxicity of the term "Gun Control" and have substituted the phrase "Stopping Gun Violence."
The lady running the show knows the tricks: private sales, grandfathering. Eventually she revealed that she wants to ideally implement a system like Australia, with a massive buyback. She was very impressed with the Australians' violent crime data.
Claims that the NRA is promulgating myths like "More Deaths from Fists and Hammers" (yes, I know that's the FBI crime data and not a myth). So this argument doesn't work on them.
I asked the room how many had ever operated a firearm - probably 70% had used a gun! That surprised me. We always rail against the anti's as "ignorant people who've probably never fired a gun" but that's incorrect.
I asked the room how many have ever fired an AR-pattern rifle. About 9 raised their hands (to audible gasps).
They are submitting bills to counter all the pro-gun progresses made, like the Colorado Supreme Court ruling that CCW must be allowed on CU campuses. They don't like CCW. They want to revise the Carry law to prohibit guns from K-12 all the way up to college level. Please don't bother circlejerking about how silly "gun-free zones" are, I know.
The good/bad news:
We are fighting little old ladies and moms. Who have plenty of free time to hound legislators with letters and phone calls and meetings.
People honestly are afraid of "black guns" and scary components.
Our opposition knows they're splintered and terribly organized. The grabbers know they face a mighty foe with the NRA.
Final thoughts: don't bother using facts. You must appeal to emotion. And do be nice, if you can. Some people have been victims of violence, and you mustn't dismiss or belittle their suffering.
But of course I ate their cookies and left them a note that I conceal carried at their meeting :)

We really shouldn't let ourselves be beaten by people who think that Comic Sans is an acceptable font.

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buckeye8
January 20, 2013, 12:41 PM
I enjoyed that, good insight.

You left out the best part:

Final thoughts: don't bother using facts. You must appeal to emotion. And do be nice, if you can. Some people have been victims of violence, and you mustn't dismiss or belittle their suffering.

But of course I ate their cookies and left them a note that I conceal carried at their meeting :)

jamesbeat
January 20, 2013, 01:21 PM
'Don't bother using facts...'

That's an interesting point.

Antis evidently don't care about facts, or they wouldn't be antis.

Steel Horse Rider
January 20, 2013, 01:29 PM
I made a career of attending left wing "public" meetings and asking the obvious questions in Ft Collins in the 1990's and early 2000's. It was a very educational experience and they will readily admit their intended end game when they are in friendly confines. I was threatened a few times but I always reminded them that they were supposed to be agents of "tolerance and diversity". I made sure I signed their register and got my e-mail address on their lists so I could stay informed before I left. I still am receiving e-mails from the Colorado Progressive Coalition asking for money or informing me of their rallys and plans.

Lateck
January 20, 2013, 01:56 PM
Thanks, Justin.
A good read.

Lateck,

SiteManager
January 20, 2013, 02:01 PM
What kind of cookies do they eat?

SuperNaut
January 20, 2013, 02:10 PM
Wow, they are claiming that twenty of the last mass murderers had carry permits.

OilyPablo
January 20, 2013, 02:27 PM
Let's stick with the truth.

I know all to well what we are up against. They will even drop their morals to "win".

wacki
January 20, 2013, 03:15 PM
Those pamphlets quote facts that are at odds with what I've heard elsewhere.

Didn't the crime rate in Australia increase after the ban?

http://youtu.be/fGaDAThOHhA

And don't CCW people commit few crimes than cops?

From the Atlantic:
(http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/12/the-case-for-more-guns-and-more-gun-control/309161/?single_page=true)
the crime rate among concealed-carry permit holders is lower than the crime rate among police officers.

Anyone got more reliable sources on the above?

wacki
January 20, 2013, 04:25 PM
We really shouldn't let ourselves be beaten by people who think that Comic Sans is an acceptable font.

I never got this argument. As long as it's easy to read I don't care what font they use. Can someone send me a PM (to avoid hijacking) explaining why this is so offensive?

I use Ariel, Minion and Times New Roman btw.

Edit: Someone just sent me this link

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2005/06/comic-sans-the-font-of-the-gods.html

I still don't get the intensity of the hate, but then again I was never one for Pomp and Circumstance and other formalities. It's easy to read font. I'd never choose it, but being easy to read is the only thing that matters to me. Oh well, I will conform.

OilyPablo
January 20, 2013, 04:34 PM
Just don't drop them any hints on how to defeat the "penalizing law abiding gun owners for the actions of a madman" scenario.

Plan2Live
January 20, 2013, 04:57 PM
Am I the only one pondering the obvious here? Have you been invited to a Pro Gun meeting? What strategies are we forming? Have we developed buzzwords to bring people over to our side? I didn't think Obamacare would get passed by Congress and it did, once the truth started coming out about Benghazi (spelling?) I didn't think "they" could continue to hide and get a free pass but they did, I didn't think Obama would be reelected and he was. I didn't think the Republicans in Congress would cave in on the fiscal cliff and they did.

I watched Rick Santorum on George Stephonopolis' show this morning. Rick never landed a decent punch and he let the converstaion get diverted to armor piercing bullets, a question he obviously wasn't prepared to answer. George Will did an okay job but neither of them ever used the possibility of multiple attackers as a defense for standard capacity magazines. To me this seems like an obvious counter-argument but I haven't heard any of our "leaders" or mouthpieces voice that argument.

I strongly disagree with the premise that we can win this by fighting as millions of individual voices singing different songs rather than uniting around a credible Point Person with a clear, succinct message. We are about to get our hats and arses handed to us.

OilyPablo
January 20, 2013, 04:59 PM
So, WHO is our leader?

wacki
January 20, 2013, 05:09 PM
Am I the only one pondering the obvious here? Have you been invited to a Pro Gun meeting? What strategies are we forming? Have we developed buzzwords to bring people over to our side?

Our side doesn't "community organize" as well as the other one does. Individuality is a double edged sword.

KevininPa
January 20, 2013, 05:09 PM
What kind of cookies do they eat?
It's not the cookies that matter. It's the kool-aid that they drink that's dangerous.

paramedic70002
January 21, 2013, 07:35 PM
Exactly what type of grip doesn't protrude from something?

****

I've resisted the urge to drop my level of argument to the lowest common denominator of "emotion" because it is STUPID, however sometime we must fight fire with fire. I can certainly come up with emotional reasons to counter the anti's emotionalism. Once you think about it, it's pretty easy.

BullfrogKen
January 21, 2013, 07:45 PM
Thanks for sharing that, Justin.

Doc7
January 21, 2013, 07:58 PM
Thanks - I also *really* liked he http://www.assaultweapon.info/ he mentioned.

AFDavis11
January 21, 2013, 08:25 PM
I'm just hoping to one day understand this "TL;DR" term. Reddit speak for bottom line.

Solo
January 21, 2013, 08:26 PM
Too Long; Didn't Read

tyeo098
January 21, 2013, 09:32 PM
I'm just hoping to one day understand this "TL;DR" term. Reddit speak for bottom line.
When encountered with a long piece of text you do not want to spend time reading, look for tl;dr (too long; didnt read) which usually provides a nice little summary in layman's terms.

gossamer
January 21, 2013, 09:40 PM
And do be nice, if you can. Some people have been victims of violence, and you mustn't dismiss or belittle their suffering

This cannot be repeated often enough.

Creeping Incrementalism
January 21, 2013, 09:42 PM
That's a good point about facts not working on people who use Comic Sans as a serious font.

I used to work for a company that used Comic Sans for business communication, but it was an ice cream company, so a light-hearted font was more acceptable.

TarDevil
January 21, 2013, 10:52 PM
Wow! What a revelation!!! Never had any idea Comic Sans was the Glock of the font world!

Gordon_Freeman
January 21, 2013, 11:54 PM
This really makes me wish I was rich so I could donate a million dollars to the NRA-ILA.

OptimusPrime
January 22, 2013, 12:05 AM
Thanks for the post Justin. Reminds me of something I learned long ago; fight data with data, fight perception with perception. I'll make sure to remember that for my next discussion with an anti. We can come up with some pretty emotional responses too.

BullfrogKen
January 22, 2013, 12:26 AM
fight data with data, fight perception with perception

I'll make sure I remember this principle.

Justin
January 22, 2013, 01:44 AM
Thanks for the post Justin. Reminds me of something I learned long ago; fight data with data, fight perception with perception. I'll make sure to remember that for my next discussion with an anti. We can come up with some pretty emotional responses too.

You know, speaking as someone who's a data hound, this strikes me as being tremendously profound.

BHP FAN
January 22, 2013, 01:54 AM
we're boned.

rspeters
January 22, 2013, 02:01 AM
What kind of cookies do they eat?

Hmm, a liberal rally in Colorado, I'm guessing there was an extra ingredient or two in those cookies....

OptimusPrime
January 22, 2013, 12:45 PM
You know, speaking as someone who's a data hound, this strikes me as being tremendously profound.
Thanks, Justin.
The TV interview that the gentleman from WV used in that popular thread from about two weeks ago is a perfect example of this debate tactic, and the reason he clearly "won" the interview. When the TV host used data in a question, the gentleman replied with BETTER and more precise data. When the host used emotion/perception, our spokesman responded in kind with equally compelling emotional answers. He did very well by recognizing the attack (question) and replying in the same vein, but better.
We could all do well by that example. We should respond to data (that's often wrong and always skewed) with data; but when an emotional or perception-based question/attack is presented we should respond with a likewise perception-based response. "Don't you care about the children?" "Of course, that's why I teach my children how to be safe when I'm not around and how to keep others safe...." Etc.

blarby
January 22, 2013, 12:50 PM
I like the edition that emotion was important- I've been finding this more and more myself as well.

Facts obviously don't matter to these people.

SoCalNoMore
January 22, 2013, 12:56 PM
Am I the only one pondering the obvious here? Have you been invited to a Pro Gun meeting? What strategies are we forming? Have we developed buzzwords to bring people over to our side? I didn't think Obamacare would get passed by Congress and it did, once the truth started coming out about Benghazi (spelling?) I didn't think "they" could continue to hide and get a free pass but they did, I didn't think Obama would be reelected and he was. I didn't think the Republicans in Congress would cave in on the fiscal cliff and they did.

I watched Rick Santorum on George Stephonopolis' show this morning. Rick never landed a decent punch and he let the converstaion get diverted to armor piercing bullets, a question he obviously wasn't prepared to answer. George Will did an okay job but neither of them ever used the possibility of multiple attackers as a defense for standard capacity magazines. To me this seems like an obvious counter-argument but I haven't heard any of our "leaders" or mouthpieces voice that argument.

I strongly disagree with the premise that we can win this by fighting as millions of individual voices singing different songs rather than uniting around a credible Point Person with a clear, succinct message. We are about to get our hats and arses handed to us.
I agree. This is not a time for complacency. Its like pulling teeth to just get my local gun ranges to put links to the website for state legislators. No mention anywhere about Gun Appreciation day. No to mention our Sheriff here in Palm Beach County, FL is touting he wants an AWB and limit on mags.

From what I see is, most right leaning folks have the mindset of "don't bother me I wont bother you". Its seems a lot are pretty passive and that is why the leftists are winning. They know that most people are sheep and only read the headlines. Facts don't matter, only what the talking points do. If we have a discussion based on facts and not emotion or propaganda, we will win every time. But that is not the case with the 2a and the gun grabbers.

There are easy to use links at Ruger.com that allow people to write to their state reps etc. We all need to use them.

holdencm9
January 22, 2013, 01:04 PM
The scariest thing is the second pamphlet, where they basically say that "law-abiding citizen" probably just means they haven't been caught yet.

Ugh

:banghead:

But someone who legally carries is paranoid.

SoCalNoMore
January 22, 2013, 01:04 PM
I like the edition that emotion was important- I've been finding this more and more myself as well.

Facts obviously don't matter to these people.
When I speak with someone that will listen rationally I tell them this true life story.

A man married the woman of his dreams and they wanted children. However the woman had a traumatic experience when she was younger. Her brother accidently discharged a .22 rifle in the house. So she asked her husband to sell his guns, they had little to fear in their upscale home in a very nice neighborhood. To make her happy his sold them. Several months later they were watching a movie at home when 2 armed men kicked open the door and entered the home. They chased them down the hall way where they caught the man and wife hiding in the closet. They beat the man to near death, raped the wide while he watched and then left with money jewelry etc. The rape was so brutal she could no long have children.

My question the the anti gun person is; No person is immune to crime, how would you handle this situation if it was you?
The man later committed suicide because of his guilt in not being able to protect his wife. There are thousands of situations like this every day, and we want to put everyone in the US in the same position as this man and woman?

Ignition Override
January 22, 2013, 01:04 PM
On second thought, my comment about 'something' regarding women and the right to vote was 'modified';)

Justin, thanks for the report.

holdencm9
January 22, 2013, 01:07 PM
My question the the anti gun person is; No person is immune to crime, how would you handle this situation if it was you?
The man later committed suicide because of his guilt in not being able to protect his wife. There are thousands of situations like this every day, and we want to put everyone in the US in the same position as this man and woman?


But SoCal, the story you told is SO rare. You'd have to be paranoid to think you need a gun in the house. Mass shootings on the other hand, happen almost every day. Won't someone PLEASE think of the CHILDREN?!?!?

:rolleyes:

In all seriousness though, good post.

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