Over-heating of .30 cal suppressor?


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Bill_Rights
January 20, 2013, 11:56 PM
I am fixing to spend $1000 or so on a .30 cal suppressor. I will shoot with full-power (.308 Win) and mid-power (7.62x39mm) .30 cal cartridges. I have several semi-auto rifles, all of which would eventually get threaded muzzles to accept this can.

Normally, I never shoot a semi-auto faster than anyone could cycle a bolt gun, but.... at any time it's easy to squeeze off a 20-round mag in well under a minute. That's a lot :what: of heat dumped in the can!

I am willing to pay the extra money for titanium construction, over stainless steel (aluminum is flat out of the question).

Questions are:
1) Are there supressors intended for repeat-fire semi-auto use and which ones are they? For ex., reading the Thunder Beast (30P-1 model) info, it seems like this can is intended for long range precision shooting, not many shots per hour, much less shots per minute. Thunder Beast seems to be a preferred brand here on THR, but I don't want some fools burning up a precision can just because they don't know any better (By fools, I mean shooters I allow to use my can; yes, they are fools but they're my fools and I'll have to love 'em still.)

2) Are the stainless steel units or the titanium units more resistant to heat?

3) If one does, hypothetically, moderately over heat a suppressor, can it/does it recover? Seems like it might deform a bit but then resume shape after cooling down.

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TurtlePhish
January 21, 2013, 12:13 AM
Buy something full-auto rated if you're worried about heat. A good suppressor can take a lot at once. I think you're underestimating their durability. One of the regulars at the rifle range I go to spends his time doing mag dumps with a .300BLK and AAC 762-SDN-6, no ill effects.

If you DO seriously heat-damage a suppressor, it'll probably be trash. You'd have to send it to the mfg. to be repaired or something.

Bill_Rights
January 21, 2013, 12:28 AM
Turtlephish,

That is comforting. Could you be a little more specific with manufacturers and models? For example, I found AWC Systems Technology (http://www.awcsystech.com/), which clearly makes some high-end suppressors for military use, and at least one in their list, somewhere, I forgot, mentioned full auto use. AWC's web site is obscure and confusing. I can call them, though. Any other full-auto mfrs I should look at?

crazy-mp
January 21, 2013, 12:31 AM
http://www.tenpoundmonkey.com/web/hot2.jpg

http://www.tenpoundmonkey.com/web/hot1.jpg

http://taylorphotostudio.com/tansuppressor_01.jpg

Of the above pictures were demonstrating suppressors on various machine guns and how they hold up. With the machine gun part being said, your semi auto will never be able to make a suppressor glow. At the same time I would not drop 1200.00 for a Thunderbeast and do mag dumps with a AK, that is not what that suppressor was ever designed for, they make a can for SBR 223 and they make a precision 223 can (223P-1) they are made of different materials for different applications.

If you think many mag dumps are in your suppressors future you may consider buying one that is rated for full auto, anything worth doing is worth over doing, this is a life long investment, not like buying a 400.00 dollar pistol just to check it out.

Bill_Rights
January 21, 2013, 12:43 AM
Wow! Does a pair of asbestos oven mitts come with those suppressors :fire:?

Yeh, I get the point. If I am buying a suppressor to accomodate the rate of fire of a semi-auto, I am probably NOT doing long-range precision shooting competition. I do want a more rugged unit. I am not worried about it weighing a few more ounces (a semi-auto .308 Win rifle can be 12 pounds, anyway, what with a full magazine, big scope, bipod hardware, etc.). I also want something that if I bump it against a fence post, drop it or something, it doesn't crumple like a cheap suit. As I say - rugged. :cool:

Any specific experience or hear-say about what's out there I could choose from?

TurtlePhish
January 21, 2013, 11:06 AM
AAC, YHM, Silencerco, Gemtech, Osprey, lots of others. Those are just the bigger names.

taliv
January 21, 2013, 01:21 PM
With the machine gun part being said, your semi auto will never be able to make a suppressor glow.

oh, i think you could.

i have two TBAC 30p-1s and they are great, but that's sure not what i would choose for mag dumps from a semi auto

Zak Smith
January 21, 2013, 11:56 PM
Our titanium suppressors are designed for when precision is more important than rate of fire- that's the rule of thumb we tell people. The actual limitation is that you want to keep the suppressor under about 800 degrees F. Above that point, titanium starts to weaken.

At the SHOT Show, we did show a new "30HD" model that is intended for unlimited semi-auto use, and full auto on .300 BLK, etc. Final specs to follow when it's for sale in 2-3 months. It's 7" long, goes over our BA brake mount, and is as quiet as the 30P-1. It's not Ti...

Bill_Rights
January 22, 2013, 12:39 AM
Turtlephish, Thanks. That's what I was looking for. I am researching these companies' web sites now...

crazy-mp and taliv (and Zak), Thanks for the perspective. I realize, as I wrote yesterday, that I am really in the market for a looser-spec'd, heavy use rifle suppressor. In fact, I am not really trying to be stealthy or "silent" very much at all. I am trying to reduce muzzle report (ear damage, concussion, bystander distress, etc.), muzzle flash and (less so) felt recoil. For example, I have a flash hider on one of my .30 cal rifles that seems to increase the loudness of the muzzle report for bystanders to the sides. I doubt this flash hider would hide me very much at night, unless the observer was 500 yards away :scrutiny:. I do not have a muzzle brake, but I have heard that they deflect the muzzle blast back toward the shooter, which I absolutely do not want. My most extreme ammo so far is .308 Win with heavy loadings but still within SAAMI spec, and I do not consider the recoil from this ammo in a heavy .30 cal semi-auto to be objectionable. If I could reduce it or smooth the impulse out over time, that would be all the better and very welcome. But not the main priority.

So, as I look at my list of desired characteristics, I concluded that a suppressor answers all three aspects at once: noise reduction, flash suppression and recoil impulse smoothing. But I am not looking for world-class specs in any of these categories. Heck, I am shooting supersonic bullets, so the acoustic shock wave (the "snap") of a bullet flying by an observer is not going to be eliminated. Likewise the flash and recoil reduction I want is not so much for stealth as to make my rifles more of a joy to use. Therefore I think I want a (or several) cheap, indestructible suppressor-like muzzle accessory for all of my rifles, starting with the .30 cal and near .30 cal ones.

Zak, This is excellent news! The TBAC "30HD" unit sounds like it might be just what I am looking for. Particularly if the .30 cal version costs about the same as a .22 LR suppressor and can be run over by a Jeep with no ill effects. Please explain why TBAC decided this model has to be coupled with your BA brake. Seems like that would increase cost. Why not just screw it on to the end of a barrel? What is the underlying philosophy here? Please keep us all posted and/or PM me with other details, availability, etc. Thanks! :)

Zak Smith
January 22, 2013, 12:47 AM
Particularly if the .30 cal version costs about the same as a .22 LR suppressor
The 30HD will be in the same price range as the 30BA.

The BA mount locks up tighter than direct threads. Also, we have had a lot of requests for a can that can be used on a .300 BLK SBR and an OBR and a long-range rifle. The brake mount provides more flexibility for muzzle thread differences.

Bill_Rights
January 22, 2013, 01:09 AM
Zak,

Thanks for the explanation, as far as it goes. I guess I don't understand what the BA brake is or how it mounts on a factory rifle barrel. I have studied TBAC's web site but not exhaustively. So I see that the common 5/8"x24 tpi suppressor threads require a minimum barrel O.D. at the muzzle of 0.725". That's a pretty fat barrel. Is the advantage of the BA that it can be fitted to a skinnier, more "pencil" barrel? Then you can mount a suppressor on the BA? I guess I need more detail than I am finding on TBAC's web site. Any info material you can point me to?

Given that The 30HD will be in the same price range as the 30BA.and I need a 30BA on which to mount the 30HD, does that mean that my price will be the cost of the 30BA plus the cost of the 30HD? (That doesn't sound cheap :(.) Or is it just the BA mount that I need?

Pardon my ignorance: What does "OBR" stand for?

Zak Smith
January 22, 2013, 01:15 AM
Here's the 30BA Brake
http://demigodllc.com/photo/TBAC-BA2/tbacsm/D463_8562_img.jpg
Here's how the 30BA goes over it
http://demigodllc.com/photo/TBAC-BA2/tbacsm/D463_8573_img.jpg

Here's the product page for the 30BA suppressor
http://thunderbeastarms.com/products/30ba

The 0.725" minimum OD is to that either the suppressor or the "BA Brake" has a sufficient shoulder on the barrel to hold the entire assembly straight.

Our BA series suppressors come with one brake; additional brakes are extra.

This is the OBR
http://www.laruetactical.com/obr-762

Bill_Rights
January 22, 2013, 02:24 PM
Zak,

Thanks for the additional explanation, photos and link. I actually like the design with the stainless BA30 brake with the Ti baffle stack of 30P-1 over it. It seems flexible, in that you can use the suppressor portion on multiple rifles with a "permanent" BA30 brake installed. The open-ended suppressor can portion should be easy to clean because of the large diameter opening that screws over the BA30 brake. Does this set-up give more, less or about the same recoil smoothing/reduction as a direct-attach 30P-1?

As to my queation about mounting threads, the BA30 brake still needs to be threaded onto a barrel. The web page you link to give the following thread options:Brake Threads

1/2-28*, 5/8-24, 9/16-24, 3/4-20, 3/4-24, 3/4-28, M18x1.0, M18x1.5
* Note: The 1/2-28 30BA brake has a .223 caliber aperture! One of my rifles has a bit thinner muzzle diameter, 0.692". I see from TBAC's thread spec web page that the 9/16-24 threads require a .662" diameter shoulder, which would work for that barrel. Will this work for a BA30 brake/suppressor combo or should I forget about this barrel and use more of a bull barrel? In other words, could 9/16-24 threads on my 0.692" muzzle support a BA30 brake with a .308 Win caliber apperture?

[I realize that this is getting out in the weeds a bit for this thread. I can call the TBAC factory...]

Zak Smith
January 22, 2013, 03:36 PM
The recoil reduction with the suppressor installed is the same.

A 9/16-24 BA brake would be fine on a barrel with a muzzle 0.69"

Bill_Rights
January 24, 2013, 02:33 AM
As OP, with your help (thanks! :)), I realized I am not in the market for a precision rifle suppressor but rather as I look at my list of desired characteristics...: noise reduction, flash suppression and recoil impulse smoothing. But I am not looking for world-class specs in any of these categories. Heck, I am shooting supersonic bullets, so the acoustic shock wave (the "snap") of a bullet flying by an observer is not going to be eliminated. Likewise the flash and recoil reduction I want is not so much for stealth as to make my rifles more of a joy to use. Therefore I think I want a (or several) cheap, indestructible suppressor-like muzzle accessory... I have tracked down some of these possible suppressors presently on the market. I am not done yet. Then I want to call each manufacturer to ask about mounting and handling the rate of fire of an occaisional semi-auto mag dump. For those interested, here are the first four "low-end" (I might characterize) suppressors I happened to find. Please comment and/or suggest others.

Adanced Armament HUNTER™ Thread Mount 7.62mm Silencer
http://advanced-armament.com/HUNTER_p_438.html
Caliber: 7.62 NATO & 300BLK
Weight: 21.4 oz
Length: 7.30"
Length added: 6.55"
Diameter: 1.50"
Finish: Gun-Kote™
Sound Reduction: 27-29dB
Mount: 5/8-24 or M18x1 Thread
Mount Materials: Inconel® 718, 316L SS
The HUNTER is a direct-thread silencer for rifles chambering the 7.62 x 51mm and 7.62 x 35mm (300 AAC BLACKOUT) cartridges. The rigid direct-thread interface and accuracy-driven design of the baffle cores used in the HUNTER enhance accuracy and provide a minimal and repeatable zero-shift. Accuracy is further enhanced by the inclusion of a tapered bore passage that ensures precise alignment with the rifle bore axis. Users will instantly appreciate the impressive sound signature and dramatic recoil reduction of the compact HUNTER.
MSRP: $650.00

Adanced Armament CYCLONE™ 7.62mm Silencer
http://advanced-armament.com/CYCLONE_p_451.html
Caliber: 7.62 NATO, 300 BLK
Weight: 22.4 oz
Length: 9.5"
Length added: 8.75"
Diameter: 1.50"
Finish: Gun-Kote™
Sound Reduction: 30-33dB
Mount: 5/8-24, M18x1
Materials: Inconel 718 & 316L SS
The rigidly simple threaded mounting design provides reliable precision accuracy with minimal and repeatable zero-shift. Extraordinary sound and recoil reduction are two of the instant benefits of the CYCLONE silencer. Durability is maximized by fully CNC automated fusion welding of every high-temperature aerospace alloy component used in its construction- making 100% suppressed fire possible. The backpressure lowering design of the silencer aids in shooter comfort, reduces weapon fouling, and minimizes cyclic rate increase. EDM technology is utilized as a final step to ensure precise bore alignment and enhance accuracy. The elimination of approximately 95% of the muzzle report nullifies the need for ear protection, facilitates field communications, and masks the location of the user.
MSRP: $750.00

Gemtech HVT-QD Quickmount Suppressor
http://www.gem-tech.com/store/pc/HVT-QD-10p90.htm
Caliber: .308 or .300WM (7.62MM NATO)
Weight: 28 OZ
Overall Length: 9.2"
Diameter: 1.5"
Materials: Welded Stainless Steel
Finish: Optically Flat Black Oxide
Threads: Various QUICKMOUNT Adapters Available
A short, efficient suppressor for rifles chambered in 7.62x51mm NATO and .30 caliber cartridges of similar case capacity, the Gemtech HVT sets the bar for endurance and reliability. It is offered in either threadmount or maintenance-free Quickmount fast attach configurations. The HVT has an unusually quiet sound signature that is indistinguishable from, and masked by, the bullet flight noise, making it ideal for both urban and rural tactical operations.
Recoil and visual signature (flash, dust) are reduced greatly along with the audible signature. With our high-accuracy / low-blowback baffle design that the U.S. Navy deemed "highly favorable" in limiting rate-of-fire increase, the HVT makes for an excellent choice on automatic rifles as well as bolt-action precision rifles.
The Gemtech Quickmount attachment system permits consistent mounting with repeatable accuracy. The male mount is torqued into position over a threaded barrel to assure utmost accuracy, and the suppressor affixes over with a simple, one-handed movement with no gates, latches, or threads to stick or fumble. It's either on, or it's off. There are no "Is it on where it should be?" questions with the Quickmount.
While the Quickmount retains backward compatibility with the original Bi-Lock flash hider mounting system, the mount has been totally re-designed for limited or no maintenance.
Quickmounts are available in flash hider style to fit factory threading on M1A/M14, Mk17, AR10, AK47, and other AR-type automatic rifles, or in a tensioning back-over-barrel mount for bolt action rifles. Thread Mounting units are available in 5/8-24 or M18x1 configurations.
QUICKMOUNT OPTIONS:
Bi-lock flashhider mounts are torqued into position on the host rifle's threaded barrel to assure utmost accuracy.
The phantom style flash hider bi-lock mount provides outstanding flash suppression and is most popular on semi-automatic tactical rifles. Mounts are threaded 5/8-24, 18x1 (SAKO, BLASER), 1/2-28 (DS ARMS OSW, some 6.8SPC carbines), 14x1LH (AK47) 15x1RH (HK), 9/16-24 LH (FAL). Also available is a Phantom style flash hider mount specifically for the M1A/M14 rifle in .595x32.
The barrel tensioning style bi-lock mount telescopes back over a specially profiled barrel to tension the critical distal 2 inches of the barrel against a square shoulder to provide utmost accuracy. This is the most compact mount, with the crown at the far end of the bi-lock. Muzzle tensioning is a proven accuracy enhancing technique. Mounts are threaded 5/8-24.
Our 7.62mm suppressors are also compatible with 5.56mm QUICKMOUNT adapters for customers wishing to utilize their 7.62mm suppressors on subcaliber rifles such as an AR-15.
Price: $825.00

Adanced Armament 762-SDN-6™ Fast-attach 7.62mm silencer
http://advanced-armament.com/762-SDN-6_p_433.html
Caliber: 7.62 NATO, 300 BLK
Weight: 20.0 oz
Length: 7.66"
Length added: 6.10"
Diameter: 1.5"
Finish: Gun-Kote™
Sound Reduction: 25dB 7.62 NATO, 39dB 300BLK
Mount: 51T Ratchet Mount
The AAC 7.62-SDN-6 is a compact fastattach sound and flash suppressor for 7.62x51mm and 300 AAC BLACKOUT (7.62x35mm) weapons. It is 1.25” shorter than the 762-SD and features a fully welded all-Inconel® baffle stack and front end cap to maximize durability on select fire 7.62mm SBRs. The 762-SDN-6 also functions as a superb multi-caliber suppressor for multiple hosts, providing excellent performance on 7.62 NATO, 300 AAC, 6.8 SPC, 6.5, and 5.56mm NATO. When employed on a 300 AAC BLACKOUT (www.300aacblackout.com), the overall SPL of 126 dB with subsonic ammo is quieter than the 9mm HK MP5-SD.
MSRP: $1,050.00

Gtscotty
January 24, 2013, 11:35 AM
Have you looked at the SAS Arbiter? The Arbiter gets strong reviews all around; I think my second can is going to come down to either the 30P-1 or the Arbiter, but then Again, I want a lightweight can for hunting/slow fire, so our needs are somewhat different.

Bill_Rights
January 24, 2013, 12:57 PM
Scotty, Yes, thanks. I will look at the SAS line-up.

My latest look is at the SureFire line - very pricey! But I think even this smallest, cheapest one is rated for machine gun use. But add $129 for flash hider needed for quick attach feature.

SureFire SOCOM762-MINI Fast-Attach suppressor
http://www.surefire.com/tactical-equipment/sound-suppressors/rifle-carbine-suppressors/762-mm-308-caliber/socom762-mini.html
Caliber 7.62 mm (.308 caliber)
Weight 17.0 ounces
Length 6.2 inches
Diameter 1.5 inches
The SureFire SOCOM762-MINI Fast-Attach suppressor is optimized for use with 7.62x39 and 7.62x35 caliber rifles and will also adequately suppress 7.62x51 NATO caliber rifles with a barrel length of 16 inches or longer. It features the same revolutionary suppressor technology as the SureFire SOCOM762-RC, the most advanced suppressor ever made, which was recently selected by US Special Operations Command as first among all competitors in the most extensive and rigorous suppressor evaluation in history.
Just over 6 inches in overall length, the SOCOM762-MINI is 2.2 inches shorter and 2.5 ounces lighter than the SOCOM762-RC. It includes advanced internal venting to reduce back pressure, reducing the suppressed cyclic rate and gas blowback on the operator. The new design also includes an integrated blast shield in the back section that increases durability. The patent-pending front-plate design, along with proprietary improvement in gas-flow dynamics, nearly eliminates first-round flash, a true technological breakthrough in this area. It also attenuates noise and dust signatures to an unprecedented degree.
The SOCOM762-MINI is constructed from advanced US mil-certified high-temperature alloys and heat-treated stainless steel, and features a tough, corrosion-resistant Ionbond coating on the Fast-Attach lock ring and Cerakote ceramic finish on the suppressor body, in either Black or Dark Earth color.
SureFire sound suppressors for rifles and machine guns combine every important suppressor feature: excellent sound, flash, and dust signature reduction—key components of SureFire's Total Signature Reduction (TSR); minimal and consistent zero shift regardless of attach/detach cycles; rocksolid attachment in seconds; compact size; minimal weight; failsafe baffles to prevent bullet side-exit; and extreme durability permitting full-time use. In fact, your SureFire suppressor should outlast your firearm barrel, depending on use.
Price: $1,399.00

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