I don't understand this.


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SC_Dave
January 22, 2013, 09:40 PM
I reloaded some 9mm dummy rounds. Did everything just like I would with a live round except no powder, no primer. So, it was sized, bullet seated and crimped. Tried them out on the next range trip, they chambered fine but locked the slide in battery. I could not manually manipulate the slide. Am I missing something? Would the absense of a primer cause this?
David

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45lcshooter
January 22, 2013, 09:44 PM
Might help to know what gun it is.

SC_Dave
January 22, 2013, 09:46 PM
Forgot, Glock 19.

dirtengineer
January 22, 2013, 09:59 PM
I would guess that the bullet is into the rifling.

SC_Dave
January 22, 2013, 10:03 PM
That's what I thought at first but they are same OAL as the live rounds that cycle just fine. I'm at a loss.......

Joe I
January 22, 2013, 10:05 PM
Since they were dummies, I assume you were still figuring out OAL, crimp, or something similar. Did you try a drop-test with them first with the barrel out of the pistol?

I had this happen once when I was trying out a .38 SPL expander on a Lyman Multi-Expand die in 9mm - the .38 expander did the trick to open the 9mm case up further for the oversize .359 boolits I was using (another story), but when the die was run far enough down to bell the mouth, the expander section of the .38 SPL insert was into the thicker part of the case walls and bulged the walls out. The cases with thicker walls would still chamber if you dropped the slide on them, but would be jammed if you tried to manually extract. You would have to force the slide open on the side of a wood bench.

This was in my earlier days of reloading, and this discovery was made when unloading after the first string of an IDPA match. Embarrassing! These days I always drop-test my ammo first with the barrel out of the pistol.

SC_Dave
January 22, 2013, 10:10 PM
Joe, I did not drop test them but, they were "loaded" the same way I load live rounds.

Joe I
January 22, 2013, 10:23 PM
Dave, I'm curious -- why were you making dummies if you weren't changing anything about your load? Were you able to force the pistol open, and if so, was the bullet still in the case and was the OAL unchanged?

SC_Dave
January 22, 2013, 10:30 PM
When I said I didn't chang anything I meant as far as sizing, seating, crimping and OAL. They had no powder or primer. I made dummies so I could practice "Tap/Rack" drill during a FTF condition. I could mix them in with live rounds at random.

Joe I
January 22, 2013, 10:52 PM
OK, that makes sense now. Did you get the pistol open, and if so did the dummy come out in one piece, and what did the dummy's measurements check out at? Just wondering, what was the length of the case on that dummy?

I'm not familiar with the Glock's design, but are there any marks or deformation in the primer pocket?

Is there any buildup in the chamber or in the throat?

What happens if you drop-test some other dummies or live rounds you made?

Lost Sheep
January 23, 2013, 02:48 AM
What happens if you chamber (not fire) and then attempt to remove live rounds the same way you were handling the dummy rounds?

I know, it is a simple question, but wonder if the same thing happens with rounds containing powder and primer.

Lost Sheep

Fire_Moose
January 23, 2013, 04:04 AM
That's my thought. A live round is doing the same thing except the blast can still drive the slide.

useless signiture

Fire_Moose
January 23, 2013, 04:06 AM
Also, look at the ogive of the dummy bullet you got out (hope you got it out) see if you can't find any rifling marks.

useless signiture

thump_rrr
January 23, 2013, 06:10 AM
I'm unfamiliar with Glocks but do the cases have the Glock bulge that may make them hard to chamber of extract?

SC_Dave
January 23, 2013, 12:00 PM
With great difficulty I was able to get the slide back and it ejected the dummy round.

The COAL is 1.125

No build up in the chamber or throat.

No marks on the bullet or case of the dummy rounds.

Drop test are the same as a live round.

Took a magazine of live rounds, same bullet, same seating depth, same crimp and manually worked the slide and all round extracted and eject very clean and smooth.

Had to do a lot od driving today so I had a lot of time to think. Is it possible the striker pin is getting lodged into the primer pocket since their is no primer in the dummy rounds?

biogenic
January 23, 2013, 12:25 PM
Silly question but did you crimp the dummy round ? Post a video on you tube.. ;)

homatok
January 23, 2013, 12:39 PM
Easy check on the lack of a primer---just seat a fired primer and try again.

guyfromohio
January 23, 2013, 12:52 PM
I was thinking that it might be the pin and lack of primer.

Walkalong
January 23, 2013, 12:57 PM
Prime them with a dead primer and recheck.

mdi
January 23, 2013, 01:18 PM
Also, look at the ogive of the dummy bullet you got out (hope you got it out) see if you can't find any rifling marks.

useless signiture
I'd think the ogive is sticking in the rifling. A live round shot has no extraction problem ('cause the bullet is gone!) which leads me to think the bullet/OAL is causing your problem. Color the bullet w/a black marker on your dummy and chamber it, then remove it to see if rifling marks the bullet...

Cosmoline
January 23, 2013, 01:26 PM
Are you certain they were resized?

rsrocket1
January 23, 2013, 03:06 PM
Check your case at the mouth before and after the bullet is seated. If it's greater than 0.379" with the bullet seated, you may be jamming it into the chamber. Also if the case itself is longer than 0.754" the case is too long (pretty unlikely).

This is where the plunk test will obviously tell you if you have a problem.

Steve2md
January 23, 2013, 03:35 PM
If you decide to use a dead primer in them, might I suggest drilling a small hole in the side of the case so you don't think you got a squib..... I'd mark the mouth of the case and the bullet with a sharpie and see where it's contacting. Maybe you forgot to size the dummies?

tightgroup tiger
January 23, 2013, 04:24 PM
This may sound a little odd but in one of your other posts you mentioned you were expanding your cases with a ptx setup on your Hornady AP powder measure I believe.

If you didnt put any powder in your dummy's did you just take the powder measure out of the top of the press? If so, the cases didn't get expanded, I would look at the mouth of the case of the dummies and see if the case is out of shape somehow from forcing a bullet in an unexpanded case.

That's the only thing I can think of that would change from your live rounds to the dummy rounds.

Just something to check out

Cheetos
January 23, 2013, 06:00 PM
This is my guess. That OAL is on the long side for a Glock.

SC_Dave
January 23, 2013, 08:12 PM
Lets say I had a FTF round with a bad primer for example. This would eject with no problem. So, the only difference is, no primer. Right?

GLOOB
January 23, 2013, 08:14 PM
Weird problem myself.

Just the other day I was shooting my Glock (27 with LW 9mm conversion barrel), and 2 of the empty cases did not eject.

One of them stayed in the chamber and the slide didn't appear to even open. (Or maybe it did, but then the slide closed back over the spent case without picking up the next round?) The other time, the ejector slipped off, and the slide opened but stayed partially open due to the doublefeed. I let it close back over the rim to get it out. Both times, the empty case did NOT want to come out until I jammed on the slide very hard. These were not squibs. Bullet report/recoil/impact all normal. These were mild loads. Chamber was not dirty or damaged. Barrel is not bulged. I scraped the chamber with a sharpened brass tube, just to be sure, and didn't find any hint of fouling.

So it IS possible for even an empty case to jam in a gun the way you describe. I find this very odd, myself. I doubt this has anything to do with the lack of primer, maybe just something to do with the case.

Before this happened to me, I wouldn't have thought it was even possible. I can't figure out how a round can feed and fire fine, but then the empty case gets that stuck!

While on the range, I field stripped the gun and put the retrieved cases back in the chamber. They were tight, but they fit all the way and came out easily with a fingernail. There was no telltale constriction on the end that might have occurred if the case had gotten jammed into the leade.

rcmodel
January 23, 2013, 08:19 PM
I believe you identified the only possible cause yourself.
If they eject normally with primers in them.
But don't without primers in them?

Thats what we like to call a clue right there!

Prime one that won't eject with a new unfired primer, and see if it can be ejected normally.

If it can you have the only logical answer.

Then don't forget to destroy the evidence of the squib load you loaded.

rc

SC_Dave
January 24, 2013, 01:13 PM
Alright, it had to be the lack of a primer. As suggested, taking the same round that would not work and seating a fired primer it worked fine. The pin was evidently lodging in the primer pocket though I did not see any witness marks. Problem solved.

Thanks for your help guys!
David

dirtengineer
January 25, 2013, 03:59 AM
Good, now go spend a few dollars on snap caps for your drills.

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