1905 4th change buy or pass **PIC ADDED**


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bigtubby
January 23, 2013, 10:13 AM
Looking at a nice condition probably 93% 1905 4th change I believe it is a late 20's gun or a early 30's original grips with no S&W emblem just plain diamond magna's Serial # 5213XX it is a one line address with the mushroom head ejector. I know these are not exactly rare no box or goodies in your opinion is this a $300 gun?

Perhaps I have overstated the condition so here is a pic so i would now say closer to 85% condition still worth the $300 price tag.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww302/bigtubby/896614_01_smith_and_wesson_38_special_ct_640_zpse41abcba.jpg

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Sam1911
January 23, 2013, 10:21 AM
For $300? In decent shape and works? How exactly could you go wrong? :confused:

Husker_Fan
January 23, 2013, 10:41 AM
That sounds good to me for a shooter. I love my long action k-frame. It has the best DA pull of any revolver I've shot.

bannockburn
January 23, 2013, 11:32 AM
As long as it checks out okay, in that good of condition, I would buy it for that price.

Old Fuff
January 23, 2013, 11:56 AM
If everything is as described I wouldn't walk, I'd RUN!!!!

Most likely it was made during the 1920's and at the time they were sometimes well greased. If any of it's left on the inside it will have turned to varnish. It is a good idea to remove the stocks and then soak the gun in a bath of carburetor cleaner (do this outdoors) followed by a bath in Marvel Mystery Oil (obtainable at automobile service stores). Use an air hose to blow out excessive oil, run a dry patch through the bore and chambers, and wipe down the exterior with paper towels. (When oil soaked they are a fire hazard so dispose of them accordingly).

Because it lacks a positive hammer block, carry with 5 chambers loaded and the hammer down on the empty one.

bigtubby
January 23, 2013, 03:57 PM
double post

bigtubby
January 23, 2013, 03:58 PM
I am not real good with grading condition so added a pic worth the 3 bills?

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww302/bigtubby/896614_01_smith_and_wesson_38_special_ct_640_zpse41abcba.jpg

Guillermo
January 23, 2013, 04:38 PM
if u don't buy it, pm me.

i have one like it and it is one of the finest revolvers that I own. (and I have some nice ones)

Old Fuff
January 23, 2013, 08:08 PM
If the grip panel on the other side is in as good condition as the one shown, the pair is worth in the $100 range, +/- $20.00.

At a major auction the revolver would likely fetch between $300 to $350, and perhaps $375. Future value is unlikely to go down.

When it was made Smith & Wesson could afford to be generous with skilled hand fitting, and aggressive cost-cutting changes had not yet been introduced.

Today many regard firearms as nothing more then a tool, and an expendable one at that. Others look backwards and see uncompromised craftsmanship and artistry. I have no idea which group you might fall into, but to answer your question - if you don't like it I'm pretty sure you can get your money spent out of it, and then some. You can't say that about very many things these days.

rswartsell
January 23, 2013, 08:10 PM
Land that one tubby, between Guillermo and I you have an out if you decide not to keep it.

Old Fuff
January 23, 2013, 08:20 PM
Today many regard firearms as nothing more then a tool, and an expendable one at that. Others look backwards and see uncompromised craftsmanship and artistry.

I take it that you belong to the second group? :D:

roaddog28
January 23, 2013, 08:37 PM
Looking at a nice condition probably 93% 1905 4th change I believe it is a late 20's gun or a early 30's original grips with no S&W emblem just plain diamond magna's Serial # 5213XX it is a one line address with the mushroom head ejector. I know these are not exactly rare no box or goodies in your opinion is this a $300 gun?

Perhaps I have overstated the condition so here is a pic so i would now say closer to 85% condition still worth the $300 price tag.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww302/bigtubby/896614_01_smith_and_wesson_38_special_ct_640_zpse41abcba.jpg
That is a fair price for the revolver pictured. Like others have said, the M&P S&W revolvers are great shooters. You did not mention whether the revolver is 38 special or 38 S&W. S&W made this revolver in both calibers. Its easy to tell just look at the right side barrel. If the revolver says 38 S&W special CTG then the revolver is a 38 special. If the revolver does not read special then its a S&W. Ammo for a S&W CTG is harder to find and more expensive. But anyway this revolver is a good buy and worth the price. Also avoid using 38 +P ammo in this old lady. S&W did not heat treat their cylinders until 1930s. If you buy the revolver stay with standard pressure ammo. A good choice is the 148gr wad cutter ammo. Very accurate in this revolver.

bigtubby
January 23, 2013, 08:50 PM
It is .38 special according to the seller I am going to look at it tonight so if she checks out I will post some more pics in the morning.

Guillermo
January 23, 2013, 08:59 PM
When it was made Smith & Wesson could afford to be generous with skilled hand fitting, and aggressive cost-cutting changes had not yet been introduced.

the amazing thing about that gun is that the painstaking hand fitting and craftsmanship was available to "everyman". It was not a special edition target piece or a "flagship" offering. It was just the way that they made them.

rcmodel
January 23, 2013, 09:14 PM
+1

Perhaps the pinnacle of that was when they silver-soldered the hard steel inserts in the sides of the cylinder stop notches on the Model #3 single-action to prevent them ever wearing!

Seriously, they did that!!

rc

Driftwood Johnson
January 23, 2013, 09:32 PM
Howdy

Three hundred bucks for a nice old Smith like that is a great price today, if it wuz me I would grab it and run.

As Old Fuff said, those grips are easily worth $100 just by themselves.

Those are not Magna grips, those were known as service grips.

These are Magna grips (or stocks as S&W calls them). Notice how the grips rise all the way up and cover the corner frame screw.




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/smith%20and%20wesson/model13-202-1.jpg


There are about 4 different types of service grips that S&W put on their revolvers before Magnas. The ones in your photo are square butt, round top, without medallions. S&W used them between 1920 and 1929.


This 44 Handejector 2nd Model wears grips with recessed gold medallions.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/smith%20and%20wesson/455MarkIIHandEjector2ndModel02.jpg

This M&P wears grips with flush medallions.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/smith%20and%20wesson/MPSN6212XX.jpg

If you buy the gun, be sure to remove the grips and see if they are numbered to the gun. Usually numbered in pencil, but I have seen the numbers stamped in too. Sometimes the penciled numbers have worn off.

I would not worry too much about loading six in that gun. Although I NEVER load six in a traditional Single Action, all S&W handejectors had (and still have) a rebounding hammer. When the trigger is released, a nub of steel on top of the rebound slide forces the hammer back about 1/8", pulling the firing pin away from primer underneath. Yes, it has been documented that on rare occaision the hammer stud might shear off under a tremendous blow and discharge the gun, but it was very rare. Much rarer than the 'safety notch' or sear of a Single Action shearing off, and requiring a much heavier blow. I'm not sure, that one may even have the old spring type hammer block inside, mounted on the side plate, not sure just when they started doing that. Even so, I have several old Smiths made before the hammer block, and I never worry about carrying six rounds in them, although I would never do it with a Single Action.

Grab it and run.

Guillermo
January 23, 2013, 09:33 PM
once you handle a gun like that, the stuff at the new counter seems like it is hollow

Driftwood Johnson
January 23, 2013, 09:33 PM
Perhaps the pinnacle of that was when they silver-soldered the hard steel inserts in the sides of the cylinder stop notches on the Model #3 single-action to prevent them ever wearing!

Seriously, they did that!!


Really?

I have three Number Threes, a Russian, a New Model Number Three, and a Double Action 44. I have not seen any evidence of inserts soldered into the cylinder. As a matter of fact, there is significant wear on the slots of the Russian and the DA 44.

Old Fuff
January 23, 2013, 10:35 PM
Those hardened steel inserts next to the cylinder stop notches to prevent battering were staked, not silver soldered. The process was also patented (#401087 dated April 9, 1889). They are usually found in top-breaks rather then hand ejectors. They are so closely fitted that it takes a strong magnifying glass to detect them, and if the cylinder is nickel plated even the glass won't reveal them. By the early 1900's the process was discontinued because of extra expense, and supposedly the steel used to make cylinders was much improved.

Of course those old top-breaks were inferior to what we have today because they didn'y have the CNC machines that are currently used...

rcmodel
January 23, 2013, 10:51 PM
And of course 99.9% of them got shot so much it wore out the cylinder notches in the first place! :rolleyes:

I was just say'n!

rc

lowercase
January 23, 2013, 11:58 PM
Those diamond stocks on the gun look amazing.

I'd do 300 bucks for that gun in a heartbeat.

bannockburn
January 24, 2013, 01:13 AM
bigtubby

If you do buy it you might want to be somewhat careful when removing the stocks. I had one very similar to that one (in terms of its age), and I noticed that the wood had dried out considerably and had become very brittle and prone to splintering.

Driftwood Johnson
January 24, 2013, 04:06 AM
Those hardened steel inserts next to the cylinder stop notches to prevent battering were staked, not silver soldered. The process was also patented (#401087 dated April 9, 1889).

Howdy Again

Maybe that's why my big Top Breaks don't show them. They were all made before 1889. But thanks, learn something everyday.

bigtubby
January 24, 2013, 12:00 PM
The old gal passed her physical with flying colors as soon as it stops raining I will get some pics up. You all were right I can just feel the quality in that gun. Has a somewhat heavy trigger pull probably needs to be cleaned out the screws are in excellent shape so I will try the method of soaking it. Stocks do appear dry should they get pure tung oil ? or just leave them alone. Thanks for all the help in pushing me to buy this gun now that I have it I cant believe I got it for that price.

Old Fuff
January 24, 2013, 12:30 PM
Soaking it clean and lubricating it (which the Marvel Mystery Oil will do) should improve the weight of the double-action trigger pull some. If you want it slightly lighter you can exchange the mainspring for a standard one of current manufacture, which is lighter. In the 1920's primers sometimes required a harder whack- so the mainsprings were heavier. This alteration does nothing to the revolver, and can be reversed by switching springs again.

If the only problem with the stocks is that they are dry, try several applications of Lemon Oil.

bigtubby
January 24, 2013, 01:18 PM
Okay got some pics of her I could have done a better job of wiping her down but it was starting to rain.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww302/bigtubby/1905001_zps635f16ed.jpg

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww302/bigtubby/1905002_zpsccfe8a1a.jpg

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww302/bigtubby/1905003_zpsa26c23cf.jpg

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww302/bigtubby/1905004_zpsfb03e5bb.jpg

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww302/bigtubby/1905005_zpsf343189b.jpg

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww302/bigtubby/1905006_zps19b7a13f.jpg

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww302/bigtubby/1905007_zps01f6157a.jpg

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww302/bigtubby/1905008_zps0558e618.jpg

dhcustomwork
January 24, 2013, 01:42 PM
Very nice. I'd say you did very well on that for three bills!

Iggy
January 24, 2013, 03:20 PM
I'd say you made out like a bandit.. That's one fine lookin' gun.

roaddog28
January 24, 2013, 07:58 PM
You picked up a gem. Congrats and enjoy your new revolver.
Howard

rswartsell
January 24, 2013, 08:40 PM
Wow. She cleaned up nice with just a wipedown, or you are a better photographer. Jeez tubby...why would you even hesitate for 3 c's?

Looks like very pronounced holster wear at the muzzle, left side almost looks ground. Other than that ..damn!

bannockburn
January 25, 2013, 07:56 AM
Wow that's an absolute bargain there for $300. Great find and aquisition.

Husker_Fan
January 25, 2013, 09:47 AM
I'd have been all over that one. The holster wear just gives it some character.

bigtubby
January 25, 2013, 11:00 AM
That is my oldest smith to date got a couple 5 screws from the mid 50's but I was a little hesitant don't know why so thanks for the nudge to pick it up hope to shoot it Sunday or before. Range report to follow.

Airbrush Artist
January 25, 2013, 11:12 AM
You could sell it sooner or later for maybe as Much as $700...when the right person saw it...In My Opinion one of the best Firearms ever manufactured...

bigtubby
January 25, 2013, 11:25 AM
You could sell it sooner or later for maybe as Much as $700...when the right person saw it...In My Opinion one of the best Firearms ever manufactured...
Are you the "right" person to buy it? I would let it go pretty fast for $700 as I have not yet became attached to it. IMHO I think at most it is a $400 gun I believe there are quite a few of these around.

Airbrush Artist
January 25, 2013, 11:35 AM
No But Someone is Out there ..I have a fetish for 38's ...Great deal on Your Firearm though enjoy it...

bigtubby
January 25, 2013, 11:40 AM
Thanks Airbrush, I bet I am going to get hooked on it as soon as I shoot it. I hope my last response didn't come off like a smart ass that was not my intent I knew exactly what you meant and I am sure there are people out there that would pay that.

sixgunner455
January 25, 2013, 04:59 PM
Wow, great find.

rswartsell
January 25, 2013, 08:17 PM
I think you would be a bit surprised when you went out to count how many '20s vintage in this condition are for sale. And there are people who "collect" shooter grade. Guillermo and myself for starters. I would give you a modest profit, I couldn't afford 7 but keep me in mind.

P.S. If you think you may take me up on this I would prefer you leave it just as is.

Old Fuff
January 26, 2013, 12:32 AM
The Old Fuff of course will take only those examples that are absolutely perfect and never fired outside the factory. Each is carefully inspected to be sure not one single piece of dust has ever landed on an exposed surface. Those few that pass his rigorous inspection are quickly freeze-dried and put into storage. None are ever handled by anyone except the owner while wearing white cotton gloves in an industrial grade clean room. One cannot be too careful. :what:

(The entire collection is now rolling on the floor while having fits of uncontrollable laughter). :D

Travismcgee
January 26, 2013, 01:27 AM
holster wear does not make a gun shoot straight

revolvers from that era were of very high quality.

they are not making them anymore.

that was a great purchase

Driftwood Johnson
January 26, 2013, 09:02 AM
You could sell it sooner or later for maybe as Much as $700...when the right person saw it...In My Opinion one of the best Firearms ever manufactured...

No, there were plenty of these made. $300 was a great price, $700 is ridiculous. There is a similar old Smith sitting in the display case at a shop near me, they want $650 for it. It is going to sit there a long, long time at that price. The 'right person' is not a very knowledgeable S&W collector if he would pay $700. Personally, nice as it is, I would not go much more than $400 for it.


Here is a nice M&P round butt with original hard rubber grips, made in 1938. Asking price was $450, I talked them down to $400. That is a reasonable price for old K frame Smiths like this, unless there is something very special about them. I would walk right past this one or any other if the asking price was $700.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/smith%20and%20wesson/M%20and%20P%20Round%20Butt/MPRoundButt01-2.jpg

bigtubby
January 26, 2013, 03:43 PM
Just got some information on the gun a friend of mine in the SWCA had Roy the S&W historian check the ship date turns out it is a police gun as it shipped to a PD in 1925. Considering what I have into it I will probably spend the $50.00 for the letter.

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