Season a Barrel


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Blue Line
January 23, 2013, 11:54 AM
You guys ever heard of this or used this method?
http://http://wvgazette.com/Outdoors/201301190119

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Loyalist Dave
January 23, 2013, 01:21 PM
Yep it's balderdash.

There are no "pores" in barrel steel in modern muzzleloading barrels. Check out this link from the Traditional Muzzleloading Forum for details: Why We Don't Season Barrels Anymore by Paul Vallandigham (http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/251958/pid/918147/post/last/m/1/#LAST).

I would serously like to see him shoot 100 consecutive shots from his barrel and load #100 as easily as his first round, simply because he treated his barrel with some heat and some beeswax and lard (bore butter). :rolleyes:

LD

mykeal
January 23, 2013, 02:47 PM
+1.

Jim, West PA
January 23, 2013, 03:02 PM
I have been keeping my T/C Bbls seasoned for as long as i can remember and i gaurantee you that i not only get FAR MORE easy loading and shots than with an unseasoned one, but they clean up far easier also.
I use Bore Butter. I can't recall the number of consecutive shots last fired with my .50, but this past early fall i fired 28 consecutive, easy to load as the first,shots with a newly aquired and newly seasoned .45 T/C.
I'd stand neck in neck with anyone and do a same load comparison any time and confidently know i'm gonna get many more easy to load shots that you with your unseasoned Bbl.
And that's the truth :p

BSA1
January 23, 2013, 03:49 PM
Ditto with Jim, West PA comments,

Seasoning the bore is a key step in the care and feeding of your muzzleloader.

The best comparsion is this;

Compare a well used cast iron skillet from your wife's kitchen to a brand new one. Notice how much smoother the cooking surface inside the used skillet is compared to the new one. Ask your wife how much easier the used skillet cleans up. The grease cooks into the pores of the metal over time and seals it. I don't know where pards are getting the idea modern steel doesn't have pores in it.

This is the exact same thing that is going on inside the bore of your frontstuffer and why you should avoid all modern cleaning solutions/chemicals. A seasoned bore cleaned with plain water maybe with a dab of dish soap followed by Ballistol will not only not rust but as more rounds are fired over time will be rust resistant and easier to clean.

p.s. I belong to a muzzleloading club and all the members season the bores of their frontstuffers.

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
January 23, 2013, 06:07 PM
My muzzleloading barrels are not made from cast iron. All of this is just
A bunch of hooey.

mykeal
January 23, 2013, 07:14 PM
I don't know where pards are getting the idea modern steel doesn't have pores in it.

From metals science. What they're actually saying is that modern steels are not the same as the cast iron used in cookware. And they're right.

BSA1
January 23, 2013, 08:05 PM
Baloney...Steel is porous. Look at it under a powerful microscope. In fact it has a lot of imperfections.

In addition look at the lands and grooves in the barrel. If you have reasonably good vison you can easily see tool marks inside the barrel from when the bore being cut. A common question has to do with lapping the barrel to rid it of the tool marks. Pores are more easily visible with the naked eye on castings used making parts for firearms (Ruger frames for example.

Seasoning not only fills in small pores that may not be seen with the naked eye but it helps with covering the imperfections from when the lands and grooves were cut.

4v50 Gary
January 23, 2013, 08:16 PM
Steel is porous (learned that years ago and relearned that today in my gun bluing class). However, I wouldn't bother with "seasoning" a barrel. It's hogwash. Go shoot and have fun instead of work at having fun.

Jim, West PA
January 23, 2013, 08:33 PM
This is one o' them tweechisown things i 'spect.

Driftwood Johnson
January 23, 2013, 08:57 PM
Howdy

We had a similar discussion over at CAS City just a few weeks ago. I don't shoot muzzle loaders but I shoot Black Powder in cartridge revolvers, lever guns, and shotguns all the time. Old guns from the 1880s right up to modern Stainless guns. Nice shiny modern bores as well as old pitted bores.

I don't know much about 'seasoning', but I can categorically state that once they have gone through the firing and cleaning cycle a few times with my favorite water based cleaning solution and lubricating the bore with Ballistol, they are easier to clean and require less elbow grease to get clean then the first time they were fired with Black Powder. Whether or not you call it 'seasoning', whether or not there are micro pores in the steel, they clean up quicker and easier after having gone through the firing and cleaning cycle a few times.

splattergun
January 23, 2013, 09:13 PM
I don't know about seasoning a modern steel ML barrel, but I do have a nice, expensive steel griddle which proudly proclaimed "no seasoning required". I washed the griddle according to mfr directions and went to cook with it. Everything I cooked stuck to the new griddle like glue to paper. In frustration, I seasoned it the old fashioned way, I baked on some no-salt lard at high heat until black. That griddle is now non-stick and a joy to use.

FWIW, I think it won't hurt to season your barrel the way the old timers did. Might help.

Driftwood Johnson
January 23, 2013, 09:41 PM
Howdy Again

The comparison to frying pans and rifle barrels really does not hold much water, pardon the pun.

Frying pans are usually made of cast iron. When iron was used for rifle barrels, it was wrought iron or malleable iron. Very different. Cast iron is full of impurities. That's why it is so brittle. Strong in compression but not very good in tension, which is what a gun barrel needs. Cast iron cannot be forged into a rifle barrel, too many impurities. Wrought or malleable iron can be forged because the impurities have been driven out of the iron. Much stronger in tension. Colt was still using malleable iron for frames and cylinders as late as the early versions of the SAA in 1873.

Wrought iron or malleable iron is not as porous as the cast iron of a frying pan.

frontiergander
January 23, 2013, 11:08 PM
if you want something that truly helps a muzzy bore to stay clean and load easier after multiple shots, Dynatek Bore Coat. THAT stuff is awesome!

xXxplosive
January 23, 2013, 11:20 PM
Nonsense.........just shoot it and clean it well.....the gun will do the rest.

Jim, West PA
January 24, 2013, 09:40 AM
Actualy, truth be told even, i don't actualy "season" my Bbls.
I just treat them with bore butter.I keep a coat of BB in my Bbls at all times and i lube my patches with it.
As for cleaning. I use only a few inches of HOT water in the sink with a couple drops o' Dawn. I dry the bore and imediately re-treat with BB while still hot.
Don't think this is technicaly 'seasoning', but it sure works as i stated above.
Without that BB applied to the hot bore..things go much different.
As for the pore issue..no such thing as non pourouse steel.

loose noose
January 24, 2013, 11:34 AM
Once again I agree with Jim, except for using a bit of dish detergent and hot water; I use nothing but Murphy's Soap Oil, hydrogen peroxide, and rubbing alcohol to get my bores clean (equal parts), and swab the bore with Bore Butter, no muss no fuss. I can get about 10 to 15 shots. Also I used a valve grinding compound to smooth out the lands and grooves prior to shooting the weapon. Believe me these are the easiest arms to clean. Further after doing a lot of bluing and browning of firearms, I can tell ya for certain that gun steel definitely has pores.:D

Ifishsum
January 24, 2013, 12:39 PM
Like Jim, my experience has been that after a barrel is cleaned and "buttered" a few times it subsequently becomes easier and quicker to clean up. I can usually shoot our club course (25 shots or so) without stopping to clean. Never had a hint of rust in that barrel either. It does seem a bit like seasoning on an iron pan, because there is a residual coating in there that I can remove with overly aggressive cleaning - I believe it is beneficial and leave it.

frontiergander
January 24, 2013, 01:57 PM
bore coat vs nothing
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/UBC/000_1756.jpg

Cosmoline
January 24, 2013, 02:10 PM
Compare a well used cast iron skillet from your wife's kitchen to a brand new one

Operative words. I've seen very detailed analysis of modern steel from metallurgists. There are no pores to be filled with bore butter. Nor do you need to limit your cleaning as you do with cast iron. In cleaning the problem is using petro-based smokeless cleaners that interact badly with black powder residue.

However, the use of a light BP friendly lube before shooting will almost certainly make cleanup easier. The reason is simply that the fouling adheres to the layer of grease which can then be removed, instead of adhering much more stubbornly to dry steel. The analogy is not to a cast iron pan but to frying eggs in a steel pan with or without cooking oil. And in fact the same oils you use for cooking can work great for BP. My mix is beeswax and EVOO. But the oil isn't "soaking in" to the steel. Not unless something has gone horribly wrong ;-)

mykeal
January 24, 2013, 02:48 PM
+1.

Rattus58
January 24, 2013, 04:19 PM
You guys ever heard of this or used this method?
http://http://wvgazette.com/Outdoors/201301190119
Couldn't figure out what you were referring to, but as to "seasoning" a barrel, in my opinion, it aint a dinner dish. New barrels probably have all kinds of imperfections from the barrel making process itself. Cut rifling is shaving metal from the bore, hammer forging is beatin the beegeesus from the metal, and then there is button rifling.... Centurion told me to think constipated here... lots of stress and imperfection remaining before stress relieving the barrels....

Shooting, and though I'm not advocating this, or lapping the barrel and yer going to have to choose your poison there too, will generally smooth out the barrel in due time. Fire lapping or just plain lapping take the place of bullets through the barrel. This works itself out naturally in my opinion, and if you can slide a cotton pad your wife might use to do the stuffs they do with their face at night, and it doesn't "catch", you're already on your way to a useful barrel.

As for cleaning, I use alcohol and murphy's soap followed up with now a marvel oil patch wiped dry and then protected with lucas gun oil... something I've found to be the very best protectant in our humid environs....

Aloha.. :cool:

Jim, West PA
January 24, 2013, 10:12 PM
Hey Rattuss, do ya git to shoot pigs with yer stuffer over there ?

Rattus58
January 24, 2013, 10:27 PM
Hey Rattuss, do ya git to shoot pigs with yer stuffer over there ?
I do .... in fact its only muzzleloaders that I've hunted with since about '88 or '89. My biggest pig was one I shot on a roadway from about 15 yards with my 58 and a 530 grain Lyman minie over 80 grains of pyrodex P powder. It was the only animal I've not had a pass through... the bullet stopped on the off side under the skin...

I hunt more for deer than pigs nowadays, but I do get after sheep quite a bit with my bow.

Much Aloha... :cool:

1911 guy
January 25, 2013, 12:50 AM
The biggest issue I have seen with muzzleloaders regarding cleaning and ease of loading is to avoid petroleum products like the plague when cleaning and loading. They tend to make a real mess when mixed with black powder residue. Hot water to clean and a good lube (I also prefer Bore Butter) when shooting or storing. No oil.

scrat
January 25, 2013, 01:55 AM
I use gun oil a whole bunch when putting them away. Have been using it for years. The day before i want to go shooting i run a couple of dry patches. then i run a patch soaked in some Jack Daniels. run it through the bore.... a little Jack for my barrels a little Jack for me. Well the Jack daniels cleans the heck out of the barrels. So next day im good to go.

Rattus58
January 25, 2013, 03:28 AM
I use gun oil a whole bunch when putting them away. Have been using it for years. The day before i want to go shooting i run a couple of dry patches. then i run a patch soaked in some Jack Daniels. run it through the bore.... a little Jack for my barrels a little Jack for me. Well the Jack daniels cleans the heck out of the barrels. So next day im good to go.
I used to go drinkin with my dog rusty a time ago... never thought about tossin one back with the stuff and puff ... :)

Aloha... :cool:

Cosmoline
January 25, 2013, 04:17 AM
I use mineral spirits, but the principle is sound either way ;-)

BowerR64
December 24, 2013, 12:04 AM
Baloney...Steel is porous. Look at it under a powerful microscope. In fact it has a lot of imperfections.

In addition look at the lands and grooves in the barrel. If you have reasonably good vison you can easily see tool marks inside the barrel from when the bore being cut. A common question has to do with lapping the barrel to rid it of the tool marks. Pores are more easily visible with the naked eye on castings used making parts for firearms (Ruger frames for example.

Seasoning not only fills in small pores that may not be seen with the naked eye but it helps with covering the imperfections from when the lands and grooves were cut.

You dont even need a microscope just buy any newer pietta and you can see it with the naked eye even.

I know this is an old post what else am i going to do when its -7 outside?

Boil some water and season some barrels!

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=192738&stc=1&d=1387857863

I think they make the barrels like this on purpose so there are pits to season!

rodwha
December 24, 2013, 12:16 AM
I'm curious why the markings I see don't follow the grooves???

BowerR64
December 24, 2013, 06:13 AM
That is a new barrel i got from cabelas. Target model date code is CL

I took the images before i ever shot it.

Loyalist Dave
December 24, 2013, 09:51 AM
Seasoning not only fills in small pores that may not be seen with the naked eye but it helps with covering the imperfections from when the lands and grooves were cut.

OK lets clarify.

"Seasoning" theory is that the grease fills the "pores" of the barrel and stays in them throughout the shooting process, and was different and necessary when compared to using a lube on the patched round ball patch, which apparently it is thought does not do enough of a job of smoothing the passage of the round ball over these imperfections.

So what one needs to do to proclaim that seasoning does work, is to show that a well lubed patch actually fails to do the job so seasoning actually "works" instead of being superfluous...and...,

The Dutch Schoultz shooting system which does not use a seasoned barrel and uses a very different method of applying lubrication shows results that indicate as I first wrote, that seasoning is balderdash. If it did not show such results, it would fail miserably using a dry barrel....

LD

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
December 24, 2013, 10:03 AM
Seasoning has and always will be just a bunch of BS. Period .

fdf
December 24, 2013, 02:00 PM
Arguing with folks about seasoning a barrel is like wresting with a pig in the mud, after while you discover the pig is having fun.

Driftwood Johnson
December 24, 2013, 03:42 PM
I'm curious why the markings I see don't follow the grooves???

Excellent question.

Before the rifling is cut, a hole is bored through the barrel blank. The tool used is a rotating tool, so it leaves circular tool marks behind. After the hole has been bored, the rifling is cut, usually by dragging a cutter through the bore. After the rifling has been cut, what remains of the original hole forms the lands of the rifling, and the circular tool marks can often still be seen on the surface of the lands. Since the rifling tool was dragged through the bore, the tool marks left behind by it will follow the length of the grooves. Some barrels will have an operation to polish away or smooth the circular tool marks on the lands, but they are still present on many barrels.

Incidentally, notice I used the term 'bore', and not 'drill'. Sometimes somebody will erroneously use the term 'bore diameter' when they are referring to the diameter of the grooves. That is incorrect. Bore diameter is the diameter the hole was originally bored, which is the same as the diameter of the rifling at the lands. The diameter of the grooves is Groove Diameter, not Bore Diameter.

jaxenro
December 24, 2013, 04:15 PM
I don't "season" my revolver barrels but I do like to run a really oily patch down the barrel that's dipped in jojoba oil just before shooting. I can usually clean the barrel by running another oily patch down it then dry ones until they come out clean then another oily one

fdf
December 24, 2013, 04:36 PM
After some more thought, seasoning a black powder barrel makes as much sense as seasoning a Teflon coated frying pan, just does not work.

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
December 24, 2013, 05:43 PM
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o127/prizzel/2c802add3d290af992028cb933724baf.jpg

BowerR64
December 24, 2013, 06:19 PM
WOW! that is sweet

Look how deep the lands and grooves are on that thing! :what:

No wonder that thing shoots so good for a full 10 shots!

BowerR64
December 25, 2013, 02:43 AM
Those pits in the images i posted will get filled in with something as i shoot it. There is no way they will stay open like that if i shoot it.

My question is what will they fill in with if i dont do anything at all?

Will they fill in with lead? with fouling?

I dont use a patch when i shoot a revolver so the theory that a patch fills in those pits as you load it doesnt apply to my gun.

IMO if i do nothing to this barrel like it is it wont help it. The lead will clog into those pits and the substitute fouling will fill in what the lead misses.

IF i atleast run bore butter threw it those pits you see will atleast get filled in with something that isnt corrosive right?

BowerR64
December 25, 2013, 06:18 AM
I tried it on that barrel, boiled some water ran it threw the barrel about 5 cubs of boiling water then while the frame was boiling hot i ran 2 patches threw it with bore butter all over the patch. I did that twice then let it sit and cool flipping it around every so often so the oil would cool on just one side.

It kinda looks like its been shot. :confused:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=192796&stc=1&d=1387966659

It kinda looks like fouling all over the inside now its cooled.

BowerR64
December 25, 2013, 06:31 AM
After it cooled a few hours i ran a cool dry patch down it.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=192797&stc=1&d=1387967486

Here is the dry patch

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=192798&stc=1&d=1387967857

frontiergander
December 25, 2013, 09:09 PM
if you guys want to seal the bores, Dynatek bore coat. Best stuff you can buy and completely eliminates the need to oil the bore after cleaning.

BCRider
December 28, 2013, 08:25 PM
I'd read the article in the first post but I'm getting a 404 error so I'm guessing it's been taken down or the site went dead.

Comparing seasoning a traditional cast iron fry pan to a barrel bore is a non starter right out of the gate.

The seasoning on the pan involves using stupid high heat to polymerize the cooking oil or animal fats into a varnish like coating. That's the black shiny stuff you see left behind which you never want to scrub away.

It's a whole other thing with a gun bore. Swabbing the bore with Bore Butter or some other unguent or potions might just be a beneficial exercise. But you're not "seasoning" it at all in the same manner as we do with a fry pan.

Pores in steel? Not today or any time since the earliest days of making steel from cast iron unless the metal is deliberately produced to have a "sintered" makeup for specific purposes. And if metals were pourous in the manner that some seem to think then we could not make pressure cylinders from the metals and expect them to hold the pressure over a longer period. Instead they'd leak down like our rubber tires.... which ARE porous.

Instead what steel DOES have is a varying amount of surface texture based on the machining and other finishing steps. This leaves a rather scratchy surface. The little valleys between the peaks can and do hold stuff that comes into contact with the steel. This can be desirable stuff like oil or paints or it can be undesirables like lead and fouling that catches and holds ever more such contaminants.

But to expect a coating or "seasoning" to build up over time that the bullets and patches slide over is a bit of a stretch. There is supposed to be a pretty good amount of pressure between the bullet and the walls. And just like a good scouring will remove and "ruin" the seasoning from a fry pan the bullets and patches are going to scrape away any sort of film buildup unless it's pretty tough.

So.... has anyone tried smearing Bore Butter or Ballistol or other such things on our metal and heating it until the stuff changes states and becomes a hard varnish like film? Because that's what we're expecting with any sort of "seasoning" process. If these products don't do this then all we're doing is lubricating the bore. And as such it needs to be re-newed on a regular basis.

Do not discount the burnishing and polishing effects of the bullets and patches either. Over time dust, dirt or other contaminants in the patch cloth or even the lead used for our bullets can and will burnish or polish the metal in the bores. Hopefully the use of some sort of lubricant makes this action a minor and beneficial one which doesn't plug up the bore.

I've seen this for myself. I've had two new rimfire guns which leaded up badly for the first couple of hundred rounds, leaded up less for the next couple of hundred rounds and then stopped leading up altogether. I've never seasoned the bore in any way or done anything but remove the lead when needed, clean the bore with solvent then oiled it followed by a dry patch.

BowerR64
December 29, 2013, 02:59 AM
One thing that has shocked me is what the bore butter looked like when it was heated. It was still yellow once i scrubbed the borebutter fouling junk out but its weird that it seems to burn or bead up like it did.

I might have to try that other stuff i have thats blue, its wonderlube or something simmilar to borebutter.

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