List of Retailers that are Price Gouging or Attempting to Control Supply


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Fishbed77
January 23, 2013, 02:51 PM
A lot of folks think we we should remember the retailers that are currently price gouging and choose not to patronize them after this current panic settles down. I know some folks will say "there's no such think as gouging," but it has been well-defined by many economists that gouging is contrary to free-market economics, since it prevents allocative efficiency. Also, it has been revealed that some vendors are attempting to control supply in order to manipulate market prices during this current panic, which is a clear violation of free-market principals.

I think it would be a great idea to list these vendors (along with vendors that are operating more ethically) to make it clear who is supportive of our interests, and who is attempting to profiteer off of the current situation.

To be fair, a pre-panic price should be listed along with the "gouge" price, product, date and retailer. It should be pretty interesting to see who the repeat offenders are. If you still don't believe gouging exists, feel free to ignore this list, and go on giving your money to those taking advantage of the current situation at our expense. For everyone else, I think this could be a great resource.

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Teachu2
January 23, 2013, 03:01 PM
Baloney - RETAILERS only make money when they SELL something for more than they paid for it. We are seeing a free market in action - demand has gone way up, supply has been exhausted, production has not increased to fill the void, so prices go up. At the production end, overtime raises costs, and raw material costs may also reflect demand. NOBODY in the consumer/retail chain is sitting on a huge supply - but demand far exceeds supply, so prices rise.

If YOU were a mfg or dist of ammo, would YOU be holding back? Heck no - you'd be selling, because you don't make any money until you sell.

Jlr2267
January 23, 2013, 03:02 PM
Please define "gouging" in precise terms...and explain how it applies to the purchase of ammo/firearms in our current economic environment.

Teachu2
January 23, 2013, 03:02 PM
it has been well-defined by many economists that gouging is contrary to free-market economics, since it prevents allocative efficiency

Name ONE economist who says that!

wojownik
January 23, 2013, 03:03 PM
There are certainly economists that would argue against "price gouging". For instance, Angus Deaton, Princeton's Dwight D. Eisenhower Professor of Economics and International Affairs. Or Marianne Bertrand, Editor of the American Economic Review. Just to name two.

But, this is not "price gouging" in the firearms market. The legal definiition of price gouging does NOT apply. There may be "profiteering" (seeking to make excessive profit off of a demand spike/supply shortfall).

I really have to question the fairness or accuracy of such a list. What even is profiteering these days, given the absolute scarcity of supply and excessive demand? But, unless you can really identify the firearms manufacturer's or distributors' current cost basis, you really can't fairly comment in the profit margin. But profiteering is not illegal, and whether or not it is unethical can be debated around in circles.

And what about the calculation some of these manufacturers may be making than some kind of legislation will be passed that will impact the future growth potential (or even existence) of their business? Just a for instance. If I made AR receivers, and could churn out 500 a month, but demand was temporarily 10,000 a month, AND had my doubts that I would have a market at all (legally) in a year ... you bet I would need to maximize my profits to tide me over until I could identify a new business model to keep me and my employees intact.

Nickel Plated
January 23, 2013, 03:09 PM
This is not price gouging. This is exactly how the free-market works.
When supply is low and demand is high prices naturally go up. When supply is high and demand low, prices go down. Aka a sale.
I never see anyone complain that sales are against the principles of a free-market. So you don't get to complain now.
Forcing prices to stay low deslite demand is exactly what's against free-market principles.

Skribs
January 23, 2013, 03:09 PM
Attempting to control supply...I think the term is rationing. I've steered clear of the stores unless I have the money to burn (I don't window shop well), but I've read stores will get in a large stock of ammo, and sell out of it in less than an hour with rationing. I don't know how fast it would go without.

I don't think we should focus our energy internally. We need to look at the problem. Price gouging wouldn't be going on if our rights weren't threatened. Let's look to those issues instead.

bds
January 23, 2013, 03:10 PM
I thought capitalism and free market was based on supply and demand.

Less demand and more supply, price decreases
More demand and less supply, price increases
More competition, price decreases
Less or no competition, price increases

And the buyer/customer always sets the "current market price" ... if the price is too high, the buyer/customer simply don't buy and/or shop elsewhere. If the buyer/customer can't find the same item at lower price, he/she may return and buy the item and deem the price fair.

CZ-75BD
January 23, 2013, 03:12 PM
If you are trying to control prices you will become as same as communist, who can "controls" free market.
It is self regulated structure and it is the only way it can work properly.
Golden rule is : don't fix what is working!

GoWolfpack
January 23, 2013, 03:15 PM
Price gouging wouldn't be going on if our rights weren't threatened. Let's look to those issues instead.



Let's hear it for keeping your eye on the ball!

Ignition Override
January 23, 2013, 03:17 PM
teachu2:
Maybe retailers aren't doing it Now, but does anybody else out there remember the ads on Gunbroker (private seller) back in July '09?

One seller, in Keene NH listed over 45,000 rds. of Russian 7.62x39. I counted this much. Maybe he was a retail seller, but even if not, it's interesting to note that months earlier in late '08, much of that ammo had disappeared from most places.

If we had just 'fallen from the turnip wagon', we might actually Believe that such dumping of goods might have had no link to the severe shortages back in late '08-early '09.;)

cfullgraf
January 23, 2013, 03:18 PM
I thought capitalism and free market was based on supply and demand.

Less demand and more supply, price decreases
More demand and less supply, price increases
More competition, price decreases
Less or no competition, price increases

And the buyer/customer always sets the "current market price" ... if the price is too high, the buyer/customer simply don't buy and/or shop else where. If the buyer/customer can't find the same item at lower price, he/she may return and buy the item and deem the price fair.

Exactly.

And failure to plan on my part does not mean a retailer should cut me some slack.

Queen_of_Thunder
January 23, 2013, 03:18 PM
Oops

Queen_of_Thunder
January 23, 2013, 03:23 PM
Please define "gouging" in precise terms...and explain how it applies to the purchase of ammo/firearms in our current economic environment.
Selling 22lr for $0.27 a round qualifies in my book.

j.kramer
January 23, 2013, 03:26 PM
any price lower than market value is socialism

we cant have it both ways

Birch Knoll
January 23, 2013, 03:29 PM
it has been well-defined by many economists that gouging is contrary to free-market economics

You know, merely saying this doesn't make it so. Let's see a few citations to support this assertion.

Cesiumsponge
January 23, 2013, 03:30 PM
A free market is exactly that - free. Unregulated. Free from government intervention. It means people can charge whatever the hell they want and you can choose to buy it or not. Price gouging is absolutely a free market principle. Real laissez-faire free markets don't exist in the United States. The economy and retail is incredibly regulated in the US. That's why America is so far down on the Economic Index Of Freedom. The most free market economy I've ever experienced was the street and retail markets of Hong Kong. You could buy a crappy $10 fake Rolex, a good $500 fake Rolex, or a genuine $20,000 Rolex within 1000 feet. There is a reason Wall Street Journal has listed Hong Kong #1 on that Economic Index since its inception two decades ago.

You aren't entitled to prices that make you comfortable. What you're arguing for is a regulated market. This has also strayed from the purpose of the thread, but there are several other threads that have lists of retailers that are price gouging.

Queen_of_Thunder
January 23, 2013, 03:36 PM
There is no such thing as a"free market".

gfanikf
January 23, 2013, 03:42 PM
A free market is exactly that - free. Unregulated. Free from government intervention. It means people can charge whatever the hell they want and you can choose to buy it or not. Price gouging is absolutely a free market principle. Real laissez-faire free markets don't exist in the United States. The economy and retail is incredibly regulated in the US. That's why America is so far down on the Economic Index Of Freedom. The most free market economy I've ever experienced was the street and retail markets of Hong Kong. You could buy a crappy $10 fake Rolex, a good $500 fake Rolex, or a genuine $20,000 Rolex within 1000 feet. There is a reason Wall Street Journal has listed Hong Kong #1 on that Economic Index since its inception two decades ago.

You aren't entitled to prices that make you comfortable. What you're arguing for is a regulated market. This has also strayed from the purpose of the thread, but there are several other threads that have lists of retailers that are price gouging.
I don't think abundance of pirated goods and trademark violations is a good measure of a free market, at least as considered by the WSJ. In a pure sense it is, but it's hurts the ability to sell legit goods and market them, I know from first hand experience the devastating effects it can have. Now that's not to say that crazy cheap stuff in Hong Kong is a bad think.

wojownik
January 23, 2013, 03:43 PM
Cesium - yes, a free market means free from regulation, but the market is responding to a "threat" of regulation. So in this case, the market is not truly free - the government is defacto intervening by signalling an intent to restrict supply.

Again, this substantive discussion should be about the government's policies, not the market reaction.

But, if you want to talk market reaction, why isn't anyone in the anti- camp taking the administration and Feinstein to task for grandstanding, and pretty much fueling this market frenzy.

Panic buying = more arms in private hands ... which is exactly what the anti's don't want. D'oh .... oops.

Panic buying = more arms in private hands ... which is what the founders intended.

Teachu2
January 23, 2013, 03:50 PM
teachu2:
Maybe retailers aren't doing it Now, but does anybody else out there remember the ads on Gunbroker (private seller) back in July '09?

One seller, in Keene NH listed over 45,000 rds. of Russian 7.62x39. I counted this much. Maybe he was a retail seller, but even if not, it's interesting to note that months earlier in late '08, much of that ammo had disappeared from most places.

If we had just 'fallen from the turnip wagon', we might actually Believe that such dumping of goods might have had no link to the severe shortages back in late '08-early '09.;)
And, knowing that, did you apply that knowledge and buy 200,000 rounds of .223 in early November? If you did, should you now be offering it on the market for a "fair" return on your investment (marking it up 3% would be 12% annual ROI), or would you be at or near market prices? If you paid .30 a round three months ago, would you sell it for .31 a round, even though it's currently fetching twice that?

Businesses are in business to make profits. They gamble every time they buy or make something. The market rewards those who choose wisely, and penalizes the clueless.

Is .27 a round excessive for .22LR? Depends on what it is - some target ammo has been in that range on a good day.

I have a couple of .223s that aren't going to get shot much until the prices fall. I bought a year's supply of 9mm, 45acp, and .22lr in late December, and had to shop around and wait 3 weeks for delivery.

Had I been actively shooting in '08, I would have learned to pay attention, and probably would have profitted handsomely this time around. Next time, maybe I'll buy deep - and the market won't panic, and I'll just have a lot of ammo.....

I'm sure not kicking the folks who stocked up ahead of this panic. They earned whatever profit they can make. Remember - when they run out, they still have expenses, but no cash flow.

wojownik
January 23, 2013, 03:56 PM
Remember - when they run out, they still have expenses, but no cash flow.

^^^ THIS.

Pricing is just all over the place, and the market is volatile ... just plain nuts right now. So, setting aside the profit/pricing question, I would rather see a list of the companies that just had plain bad customer service during our current troubles. Who didn't honor pricing in deals that had been already done? Who caved in and took products off the market? Who tried to get "cute" in various other ways?

Fishbed77
January 23, 2013, 04:27 PM
Haha! How quickly this has gone off subject! I guess a lot of folks missed this statement on the original post.

If you still don't believe gouging exists, feel free to ignore this list, and go on giving your money to those taking advantage of the current situation at our expense.

I'm talking specifics here. For example, Cheaper Than Dirt is listing USGI AR mags at $130. Mako still has similar (superior?) E-lander mags at $18. Whether you believe in gouging or not is irrevalent. I know where my money is going. This is the free market in action.

We need to create a list of those retailers who are seeking to insult our intelligence, and a list of those who are still seeking to bring reasonably-priced products to market. No one is arguing that supply-and-demand is going to drive up prices some. This can be a resouce to help us during these times, and as a statement to those retailers who would wish to artificially manipulate the market, or assume that we are stupid, in future panics.

If you don't want to participate, feel free to move along...


.

Robert
January 23, 2013, 05:22 PM
A thread was started on this subject was started on the 10th in Rate Retail and Private Transactions subforum. Please use that thread.

If you enjoyed reading about "List of Retailers that are Price Gouging or Attempting to Control Supply" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!