Price gouging vs hoarding


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larryh1108
January 23, 2013, 08:49 PM
It seems like many here feel dealers are price gouging and many disagree. There are already several threads on this.

My question is the opposite. Are the people crying loudest about price gouging/ammo shortage the ones who already have more than enough ammo than they'll shoot in 10 years? Do the people who are the most angry the ones who are sitting on 10,000, 20,000 and/or 30,000 rounds of ammo now but are upset they can't get more or get it at a fair price?

My instincts tell me that the ones who cry the loudest already have the most but want more. Hoarders. Is this true? Guys with all the ammo you need, do you feel the urge to buy more because of the shortage? If you have 20,000 rounds of ammo do you think you are hoarding ammo? Just curious.

The same applies to guys who are whining about the price of ARs and similar. Do you already have 4 or 5 but want to buy more because you may not get to in the future? Is the guy who has 1 happier than the guy who has 5 but wants "a couple" more but won't pay $2000? Again, my instincts tell me that this shortage is being fueled by guys already with enough ARs and enough ammo but want more "just because". Anyone care to step up and challenge this or to admit you are hoarding? Newbies don't know enough to know what a good price is. We can't possibly have this many people buying their first AR or similar. The market is dry because we have hoarders among us whether to feed their own greed or to buy now and sell later at a huge profit, something which they are crying about the retailers doing now.

So, what is it? Hoarding or new AR owners? I know what my gut says. Hoarding is behind this shortage. Hoarding by our own. They are as greedy as the retailers so many say are jobbing us. Flame away!!!

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Seventhsword
January 23, 2013, 08:51 PM
I'm sitting on 20,000+ rds, but I'm not angry at all....

ID-shooting
January 23, 2013, 08:59 PM
We already had our rifles and side arms with mags, we are sittin on no less than 800 rounds for each and not really buying ammo unless we stumble on a decent priced box or few. Too darn az cold to go shooting anyway.

Said it other places, one shop slightly rasied some prices to resupply and I cannot fault him there. Funny, guys have consignment guns asking $500 morenthan the two he has that are his, they are still there as of last night.

Another was witholding inventory and only putting so much out but then lying/preaching how they were the only ones with said items and trippling the price. This one will never see another dime from me. I was even asked to leave when I called him on it.

aubie515
January 23, 2013, 09:02 PM
Who cares...

oneounceload
January 23, 2013, 09:06 PM
Most complaining about "gouging" do not understand basic Econ 101, especially supply and demand. I would venture that some of these complaining the loudest are some sitting on huge supplies, while a large majority are the ones who likely didn't vote and then got caught unprepared

rugerdude
January 23, 2013, 09:07 PM
I have a feeling that most people complaining about the price of AR's have no reason to. Before this craziness AR's were probably the cheapest and most widely available that they've ever been. All the big-box stores carried them too. The people complaining now were the ones passing on AR-15's when they were 750 bucks and you couldn't help but trip over a few walking into Academy Sports.

It reminds me of how a child never wants to play with a toy until someone else starts playing with it. I'm guessing at least half of the people fueling this insanity are the ones that never cared to own an AR before, but wanted to get one because they might be banned. The other half are people who saw the resale opportunity either short or long-term and wanted to buy an investment.

Granted, I know that there were people who were saving for one, or just got into the sport and so on but they are probably not the majority. I imagine the die-hard AR-enthusiasts are cursing the lack of parts availability now though, and I can understand that.

Ammo is another story. I bought a small stash in November because I needed it but I still wasn't thrilled about the price. I wish I had bought so much more. While the market appeared to be flooded with AR's, ammo wasn't quite as prevalent. Nothing like now though.

Personally, I have 3500ish rounds of various calibers as well as 4 Evil rifles. I sold one of my evil guns off because the deal was too sweet to refuse and I had been planning on getting rid of it anyway. I'm not upset at the panic because I bought things as I felt I needed them. I don't like not being able to count on Wal-Mart to have .22lr in stock though. That's one caliber I never bought in bulk because it was so readily available at a low price.

mrvco
January 23, 2013, 09:08 PM
I find the whole thing positively annoying, particularly with regards to ammunition, but at least it shows how much people care. It also serves to strengthen the financials of the industry so they can at least better weather the political storm.

rugerdude
January 23, 2013, 09:15 PM
Also I would have to agree that the hoarders are the ones most responsible for the ammo shortage. I look at a lot of the people I see at gunshows who are buying huge quantities of ammo and think "How are THEY going to shoot all that?" Lot of older guys buying ten or twenty thousand rounds.

Maybe it's a perception flaw on my part, but the 65 year old guy with a big ole beer-gut doesn't seem to me like the kind of person who is doing CQB drills at the range and going through 500 rounds in a day. Also the guys on motorized scooter chairs buying in bulk are surprising at first, but those ones are old enough that they remember the depression and then I begin to understand.

Jorg Nysgerrig
January 23, 2013, 09:32 PM
Maybe it's a perception flaw on my part, but the 65 year old guy with a big ole beer-gut doesn't seem to me like the kind of person who is doing CQB drills at the range and going through 500 rounds in a day..
You might be surprised to find out that guy shoots competitions four times a month and that ten thousand rounds will be gone in no time. Or maybe he is just a hoarder. What difference does it make?

Are 22-year-olds with 18-inch biceps, buzz cuts, Infidel t-shirts, and 5.11 pants the only ones allowed to shoot a lot?

TIMC
January 23, 2013, 09:33 PM
I don't really care who is complaining or why. Prices and availability are what they are, sit back, shut up and wait it out. This is the appraoch I am taking, of course I am fairly well prepaired for that so I'm not upset either.

If people wany to complain, writer your politicians and complain about the people who are really causing this and put a stop to it.

joeschmoe
January 23, 2013, 09:41 PM
Neither. I reject your premis. There is a temporary increase in demand with a long term shortage on supply. This has caused a price spike and supply shortage.

It is not due to "hoarding" or "gouging".

Several factors have driven up prices and reduced supplies including significant increased prices of raw materials, labor, overhead costs, war needs, export increases, domestic demand, reduced number of manufacturers, etc.

Bubba buying an extra case is not the cause of this.

sgtstryker
January 23, 2013, 09:43 PM
To each his own, some folks feel the need to have alot of ammo. Others feel like a couple boxes for the hunting rifle is fine. My wife thinks I have way too much, but she indulges me as long as I keep the yard done, etc. I realized in 08 when the current administration was elected that eventually this would come, been preparing since. I think most shooters have. Who knows how it will play out this year as far as weapons banning bills go. And, when Cheaper Than Dirt is selling KCI mags for $40, that seems like gouging to me, even if somebody pays that much for them. Midway has stayed respectable through this so far, thank goodness.

larryh1108
January 23, 2013, 09:48 PM
Bubba buying an extra case is not the cause of this.

... A million bubbas will buy up a million cases and my thought is that bubba already has more than enough ammo to supply a third world country already. Shortage? No. Price goughing? No. Hoarding by our very own is my guess.

rugerdude
January 23, 2013, 09:59 PM
Are 22-year-olds with 18-inch biceps, a buzz cut, Infidel t-shirt, and 5.11 pants the only ones allowed to shoot a lot?

I chuckled at this. You forgot to add the 5.11 hat with the backwards American flag...you know, because he runs into battle sideways! I see lots of those guys walking around at gun shows, not that many at the range shooting them though. Never understood why they keep the haircuts...

But yeah, where I was going with that bit was that the newer generation of whiz-bang high round count rifle/pistol competitions seems to be (very generally speaking here) a younger generation sort of thing. Not that there's anything wrong with whomever participating if they'd like to.

And of course it makes no difference to anyone including me whether these guys are shooting the ammo they buy or just hoarding it. Bottom line is that the guys sitting on ammo and getting it as it comes in from wherever are forking out their hard-earned dollars for it. It's not like anyone got it for free and didn't want to share.

Cosmoline
January 23, 2013, 10:03 PM
Guys with all the ammo you need, do you feel the urge to buy more because of the shortage?

Not at all. We paid market price back in the day so we wouldn't have to spend more during shortages. The folks panic-buying tend to be the ones who don't have enough.

Same thing with rifles, or more so. Those of us who already owned them are unlikely to spend twice as much to buy more. It's the folks who never got around to getting one and aren't as familiar with the politics who will spend 3 grand on a Colt LEO.

joeschmoe
January 23, 2013, 10:04 PM
So you were unaware there has been shortages for several years before the current rush. You know there are a few wars going on right? Several major plants have closed.
A million bubba's don't add up to a single DOD order, foreign military order or account for the doubling price of raw materials.
These are the Johnny 'Come Latelys' to the party that's been going on for 10 years or more.

taliv
January 23, 2013, 10:18 PM
"hoarding"? :rolleyes:
"gouging"? :scrutiny:


loaded terms, speculation about other people's feelings, specious arguments, implying people have more guns and ammo than they need, and wrap it all up with an invitation to flame away.


i have no idea who you are talking about when you say "our very own" but it sure doesn't include me or any of the people I shoot with.

TanklessPro
January 23, 2013, 10:24 PM
;)I'm sitting on 20,000+ rds, but I'm not angry at all....
+1 not angry at all.
Call it what you want. Hoarding, hedging against higher prices, prepping, gouging, or whatever; don't hate because some have and some don't.
Next thing you know we will have politicians calling to "spead the ammo".:p

PGT
January 23, 2013, 10:25 PM
I put up every single one of my non-22LR firearms on Gunbroker including ammunition and accessories. I started them at $.01 with no reserve and let the market dictate the value. I tripled my initial/sunk cost after having several years to enjoy them.

I bought a quality 9mm for HD use and a few more "cool" 22 plinkers, all at "fair" prices since nobody seems to care for those right now. I've got ample ammunition to cover the next year or so and will let the market settle down a bit before buying anything else.

So....is it gouging if the market will pay? If it was, people wouldn't buy. There's a fine balance between setting a price in the market and maintaining inventory. Right now, there's a GIANT sucking sound and those with can ask their price and those without can decide whether or not its worth it to them.

MachIVshooter
January 23, 2013, 10:27 PM
the ones who already have more than enough ammo than they'll shoot in 10 years................... the ones who are sitting on 10,000, 20,000 and/or 30,000 rounds of ammo now

News flash: 30K rounds is hardly a huge stash, especially for someone who shoots frequently. I have somewhere around 35K, and except for a few hundred here and there of oddball rounds for guns I seldom take out, that's maybe a 5 year supply. 5K or 10K 5.56mm may seem like a lot to some, but if you go to the range 2 or 3 times a month and burn through 400 or 500 rounds each time, it's just not that much; On the conservative side of the aforementioned numbers, if you shoot about 400 rounds per outing every other week (not exactly high volume), 10k rounds is a 1 year supply.

Am I screaming from the rooftops about ammo price gouging? No. Am I happy that I have to seriously dial back my shooting if I don't want to spend $500 on every range outing? Of course not.

Kramer Krazy
January 23, 2013, 10:31 PM
I've been "hoarding" for over 20 years. I've been watching the events unfold with a sense of it being entertaining more than anything else. I've been watching closing Gunbroker auctions like they were reality TV shows.

It is a little frustrating that I bought some AR lowers about two weeks prior to the CT shooting and was about to place an order for some kits. Looks like I waited too long, which isn't a big deal, because it isn't like I don't have anything else to shoot. :D

browningguy
January 23, 2013, 10:37 PM
I'm not a hoarder, because I actually shoot a bit. But I probably have a total of 11,000-12,000 rounds right now excluding rimfire. I'm not angry, I'm amused by all the people whining about prices because they weren't prepared.

but the 65 year old guy with a big ole beer-gut doesn't seem to me like the kind of person who is doing CQB drills at the range and going through 500 rounds in a day

I resemble that remark, ok, I'm not quite to 65 yet, and my waist is under 38", but plenty of us shoot. I shoot IDPA pistol when I have time, shooting a 3 gun event in 3 weeks and both of those use up the ammo. I'll admit that most of us don't go to the range and blast away 500 rounds of the cheapest ammo we can buy. My typical rifle day at the range maybe goes through 50-100 rounds in the AR's, 20-40 rounds in the .308, and if shooting my varmint rifle thats usually only 20-30 rounds.

PGT
January 23, 2013, 10:39 PM
On the conservative side of the aforementioned numbers, if you shoot about 400 rounds per outing every other week (not exactly high volume), 10k rounds is a 1 year supply.
.
For a SOF guy, 5k rounds a week is the norm. Just wanted to quantify where the line between "active shooter" and "professional" is. :p

hovercat
January 23, 2013, 10:47 PM
Ammo prices are rising much faster than my paycheck, and I do not get a lot of interest for my money in the bank. So I buy a little extra and sit on it. Since I will end up using it, I am saving money a year from now.

cyclopsshooter
January 23, 2013, 10:52 PM
Are 22-year-olds with 18-inch biceps, buzz cuts, Infidel t-shirts, and 5.11 pants the only ones allowed to shoot a lot?

These guys don't care about prices.. they have a no limit credit card from mommy and daddy

Jorg Nysgerrig
January 23, 2013, 10:57 PM
"For a SOF guy, 5k rounds a week is the norm. Just wanted to quantify where the line between "active shooter" someone shooting out of his own wallet and "professional" someone shooting on the taxpayer's dime is."

There, fixed that for you. :)

PGT
January 23, 2013, 10:58 PM
well, duh.

Teachu2
January 23, 2013, 10:59 PM
Ammo prices are rising much faster than my paycheck, and I do not get a lot of interest for my money in the bank. So I buy a little extra and sit on it. Since I will end up using it, I am saving money a year from now.
Unless supply catches up with demand, and prices return near "normal"....

larryh1108
January 23, 2013, 10:59 PM
There are many guys who shoot 5k rounds a month. Those guys need to buy in quantity just to shoot and/or compete. This is not directed at them but I feel they are a small percentage of the people who have mass quantities of ammo stashed away.

The guys I'm talking about are the ones who bragged 4 years ago when the Big O was elected the first time and we had a rush on guns and ammo. Posters here bragged how they would stop in Walmart every morning at 7:45am to buy as much ammo as they could in case some came in on the night delivery. Those of us who were unprepared last time couldn't buy ammo because the true hoarders thought of no one but themselves. They even bragged about bribing a kid $10 to put a case or two aside for them each load.

Yes, I said among us. Maybe not you and maybe not me but they are the guys who won't come forward because they know they are hoarding and don't care. Why would they come on this thread and brag about how they hoard ammo and don't care about anyone else. We've had threads about the amount of ammo we had on hand and it's incredible how much some people have who are not volume shooters.

Personally, I have enough to get me by because I learned in '08. I don't shoot as much as I used to due to cost and time. Twice a week went to once a week went to once every two weeks to once a month to now, once every two months. I have about 1k rounds for each caliber I own. I wish I had more, many have less but I am not crying about gouging at the stores. If you snooze, you lose. This topic was started to point out that, in my opinion, "we" (the gun crowd) are the responsible parties for the shortage and higher prices. I blame the hoarders, not the volume shooters. Some guys have a hooray for me and a screw you attitude and that's not right in a brotherhood like we have. As they say.... if the shoe fits....

readyeddy
January 23, 2013, 11:06 PM
Why would you call them your brothers? If they're as selfish as you say, then they're probably just a bunch of jerks. No shortage of those.

lightman
January 23, 2013, 11:11 PM
I'm guessing that the ones complaining the most are the ones that were not prepared. This has happened enough over time that most of us can predict it. The school shooting was a surprise, and tragic, but the election was not. Lightman

klover
January 24, 2013, 01:30 AM
because I got to thinking what if they restrict manufacture of the ones I just paid a bit of premium on? I figure if I lose a little in the future (assuming prices went down) then that is ok because at least I have the ones I want. Odds are the premium I just paid will be the norm price before long, so I have a few soon to be in the "grandfathered in" class.

Halal Pork
January 24, 2013, 02:35 AM
http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal-blog/frugal-cafe-blogzone/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/sour-grapes-make-the-best-whine.jpg

It strikes me that the OP may very well have been caught with his pants down and now he's looking for someone else, anyone else, to blame rather than drawing the conclusion "I guess I could have been better prepared."

I'm sitting on the sidelines now, not buying much of anything. Thankfully, some of us had the means, priorities, and foresight to be prepared for this situation as best we could. For those that didn't, I feel for you, but maybe you ought to look at your own decisions and take responsibility before lashing out at others. It's just a matter of time, hopefully, before the market rights itself. Until then, good luck.

1911 guy
January 24, 2013, 02:38 AM
I've watched ammo double in price the last few years, well before the unfortunate events of December. Buying whenever you can afford it now is a hedge against not being able to afford it later. WWB .45acp was $19.99 four years ago. Right now it's $39.99 for the same ammo. Hell yeah I got a boatload of it in my basement. Along with everything else from .22LR to 7.62X51. If you've got it, you call it "stocking up". If I've got it, you call it "hoarding".

About twn years ago I went to a hardware store going out of business. They had .22LR for $.69 a box. Clerk assured me that qwas indeed the price and asked how much I wanted. They took it to my truck on a pallet jack. Costs a lot more than that to buy now. I'm still shooting cheap ammo while others can't find any.

Kinda like buying toilet paper. You know you'll use it, so buy a lot of it when it's on sale.

rugerdude
January 24, 2013, 02:43 AM
For a SOF guy, 5k rounds a week is the norm. Just wanted to quantify where the line between "active shooter" and "professional" is.

Recon Marine here, granted we don't fall under SOCOM so our funding isn't nearly that of SEALs or ODAs but 5k a week is a bit much. There's actually a ton of other things that go on during missions that don't involve shooting a gun that people need to be prepared for.

Zardaia
January 24, 2013, 02:48 AM
The only hoarding/gauging that bothers me at all is the people that snatch up as much as they can the moment it hits the shelves just to resell for major profit. You can argue capitalism, but this helps keep the panic going and prices high. Hopefully people'll stop buying the $1/round m855 and they'll get stuck with the ammo they bought just for resale.

Halal Pork
January 24, 2013, 03:15 AM
The only hoarding/gauging that bothers me at all is the people that snatch up as much as they can the moment it hits the shelves just to resell for major profit. You can argue capitalism, but this helps keep the panic going and prices high. Hopefully people'll stop buying the $1/round m855 and they'll get stuck with the ammo they bought just for resale.
If they're paying these high prices for ammo they're snatching up, how are they reselling for a major profit? I can buy a case of of .40 S&W right now for about $400. Could I buy all that up and sell it for a "major profit" right now? I don't think so.

BHP FAN
January 24, 2013, 03:23 AM
some of these guys need to learn to reload, and stock up on what can't be reloaded, like .22's. free advice, and worth what they paid.

tarosean
January 24, 2013, 03:25 AM
If they're paying these high prices for ammo they're snatching up, how are they reselling for a major profit?

probably because the big retail outlets havent raised their prices at all.. I can walk into wallyworld, academy, etc. and buy bullets at normal prices and put them on GB. and let the war begin for those people in areas that are less fortunate.

(NO I havent done it nor sold anything in this current panic/grab)

Halal Pork
January 24, 2013, 03:32 AM
probably because the big retail outlets havent raised their prices at all.. I can walk into wallyworld, academy, etc. and buy bullets at normal prices and put them on GB. and let the war begin for those people in areas that are less fortunate.

(NO I havent done it nor sold anything in this current panic/grab)
I can see your point there. I think the phenomenon is, at most, a drop in the bucket compared to other factors though.

Aaron1100us
January 24, 2013, 03:33 AM
I don't have much ammo and can't get any more because everyone is out. The most I have is probably 600 .22lr. Everything else, I'm out of or have less than 200 rounds. My goal this Winter was to slowly stock up for the next shooting season. Its not working out so well. I'd be happy with a few hundred rounds per caliber for now.

Sent from my PB99400 using Tapatalk 2

bikerbilly
January 24, 2013, 03:44 AM
I have a few boxes (well under a thousand) in the calibers I have at home. I'd love to have more, But I'm not angry...I bought when I could, might've gotten another box or two each trip if I wanted to have a little less extra cash (fixed income), but what I have at home is entirely my responsibility. This isn't this first time prices spiked, definitely won't be the last.

If I had to direct any ill feelings, it's the idiot in front of me in line a few days ago at one of our local gun shops. bought every last box of .40 on the shelves....ball, hollowpoint, whatever. left with several stacks (I'm guessing 25 or more). I also put some on the shop owner as well...he had to know that he'd sell every one of those boxes even if he did a "5 boxes per customer" limit, But it is what it is...getting pissed is going to change nothing. Accept, adapt, adjust.

jim243
January 24, 2013, 03:44 AM
I really don't know what to say about this. Part of me thinks that if someone goes out and buys up all they can afford just to turn it around for a profit that would be ok. If they do it just to stock it away for a rainy day that to would be ok also.

What everyone is failing to understand is that there is and has been a large influx of new shooters into our little world and that has had more effect on the availablity of ammo than those that have been purchasing large quanities of surplus ammo, they have been around for as long as I have been shooting (about 50 years).

I must be getting old, because I just don't see the need for shooting 200 or 300 rounds at a range secession. Generally 50 rounds is more than enough for me to check my zero and keep my skills up.

Am I a hoarder, maybe, I have plenty of ammo on hand, but haven't purchased a commercial round in over 7 years. Actually I haven't reload a single round in the last 6 months, not that I don't have components, I do. I just ran out of room to store any more ammo, cases, bullets, primers or powder.

So for all of you that do not reload, tough luck, we have been saying for years that you should get into reloading, not just for the cost savings, but so you can have ammo when times get rough like now.

Good luck and I hope you do get into reloading.
Jim

PFCLEE11B
January 24, 2013, 03:53 AM
I know it is my fault that I was not prepared but like a lot of people I do not have a bunch of expendable income that I can just throw at ammo and guns. I have my AR my .308 semi and my CC sidearm and HD 1911, but have been drooling over a Uzi and other smaller assault rifles but because of the supply and demand they have jumped out of the realistic range for me, and soon it will be hard to even justify the pre craze price. Just find it rediculous that even imports are getting the price gouge, old PPS and Sterlings are doubling in price. Just hope this craze dies down soon.

tarosean
January 24, 2013, 03:53 AM
I think the phenomenon is, at most, a drop in the bucket compared to other factors though.

Not sure... Manufacturing is of course backed up due to the massive demand. However, prices of steel is down over the course of last year (Coil, Wire, Sheet, Block), Brass has remained relatively unchanged, Lead has changed about .10 /lb over the last year. Salaries have remained stagnant. etc. etc. So there is no reason for huge price increases on manufacturing. Fuel is also down so there goes the distribution aspect too.

nothing more than demand outstripping supply.

Halal Pork
January 24, 2013, 04:04 AM
Not sure...

...nothing more than demand outstripping supply.

I subscribe to the same far fetched conspiracy theory.

:)

tarosean
January 24, 2013, 04:18 AM
I subscribe to the same far fetched conspiracy theory.

Yeah but it seems to me I need to aquire more Reynolds Group stock. Judging from the board posts over the last several weeks, apparently there are mass quantities of foil being used right now... :D

Ms_Dragon
January 24, 2013, 04:32 AM
For me it's called PREPPING.

It makes sense to stock up when prices are low and buy in bulk.

Prepping for the zombie apocalypse.
Prepping for the Chicken Little apocalypse. What JOY!
Prepping for economic meltdown.
Prepping for ant-gun, anti-2A government.

Just like they do with canned goods, toilet paper, beans and rice.

They do it because they have the will, the drive, the finances and live in a free country that, for the time being, allows it's citizens to exercise their free choice and will to spend their money on things they see fit.

People who whine about having to pay high prices now are probably those people fist fighting over the last tin of green beans and the last loaf of bread on the shelves of the supermarket after a natural disaster hits.

Remember the story of the Ant and the Grasshopper.

justice06rr
January 24, 2013, 05:29 AM
I really don't know what to say about this. Part of me thinks that if someone goes out and buys up all they can afford just to turn it around for a profit that would be ok. If they do it just to stock it away for a rainy day that to would be ok also.

What everyone is failing to understand is that there is and has been a large influx of new shooters into our little world and that has had more effect on the availablity of ammo than those that have been purchasing large quanities of surplus ammo, they have been around for as long as I have been shooting (about 50 years).

I must be getting old, because I just don't see the need for shooting 200 or 300 rounds at a range secession. Generally 50 rounds is more than enough for me to check my zero and keep my skills up.

Am I a hoarder, maybe, I have plenty of ammo on hand, but haven't purchased a commercial round in over 7 years. Actually I haven't reload a single round in the last 6 months, not that I don't have components, I do. I just ran out of room to store any more ammo, cases, bullets, primers or powder.

So for all of you that do not reload, tough luck, we have been saying for years that you should get into reloading, not just for the cost savings, but so you can have ammo when times get rough like now.

Good luck and I hope you do get into reloading.
Jim

Jim, you made some excellent points.

What's probably more of a factor is all the new shooters and gun owners that recently bought firearms and are trying to buy ammo all at the same time.

Although the point about reloading to save ammo may not apply to everyone. From what I've researched and learned (also from Vlogger Hickock45) you don't really save money when you reload; when you reload you shoot more.

If you have been reloading in the past and have all your equipment that you bought at low prices in the past, then you are ahead. Those who just want to start now will have to pay higher startup costs due to demand and inflation.

evan price
January 24, 2013, 05:44 AM
Seems to me the only people who call it hoarding are the ones that failed to plan ahead.
They are also the ones who are complaining about gouging.

If you didn't see this coming years ago- what's your excuse? Just come down from the mountain cave after living as a hermit for the past ten years?

justice06rr
January 24, 2013, 06:16 AM
Evan, I'll answer that question and put myself on the burner.

I've only gotten into firearms in late 2010 when I obtained my CCW after graduating college. then starting a small business while firearms was a casual (but very important) hobby. Some of those same people in my shoes were not around firearms during the Clinton ban; I was in high school at the time period. We did not expect or much less know of such panic induced by violent events in the past, well because we were not into guns to begin with. Plain and simple.

Now there are probably others who just procrastinated and didn't prepare for such a panic and shortage that we are experiencing now. Combine all those factors and you get the lack of supply that we see at the present.

PGT
January 24, 2013, 12:05 PM
Recon Marine here, granted we don't fall under SOCOM so our funding isn't nearly that of SEALs or ODAs but 5k a week is a bit much. There's actually a ton of other things that go on during missions that don't involve shooting a gun that people need to be prepared for.
Yes....I think that number is for the teams that are in a training rotation and not downrange. The guys downrange are keeping their skills sharp in real life, not on a range. :)

MachIVshooter
January 24, 2013, 12:25 PM
It makes sense to stock up when prices are low and buy in bulk.

Prepping for the zombie apocalypse.
Prepping for the Chicken Little apocalypse. What JOY!
Prepping for economic meltdown.
Prepping for ant-gun, anti-2A government.

Just like they do with canned goods, toilet paper, beans and rice.

They do it because they have the will, the drive, the finances and live in a free country that, for the time being, allows it's citizens to exercise their free choice and will to spend their money on things they see fit.

People who whine about having to pay high prices now are probably those people fist fighting over the last tin of green beans and the last loaf of bread on the shelves of the supermarket after a natural disaster hits.

Remember the story of the Ant and the Grasshopper.

She's halfway around the world and has a better understanding than most here.

Most in this country have disposable income. How much varies wildly, but chances are, if you're a gun owner who's affected by this shortage, it means you shoot recreationally, and you're not stretching every penny just to survive. It also means that if you'd dialed back on other discretionary spending and bought extra mags and ammo when prices were lower, you'd be one of us just shaking our heads rather than one of those who is frantically searching local stores and online just to have a couple 30 round AR mags and a few boxes of ammo.

The writing has been on the wall, we all knew this was coming. The only thing we didn't know for certain is what the catalyst would be. Not stocking up over the last 4 years is akin to looking at your "distance to empty" indicator reading 37 miles while you decide to drive past the "last gas station for 72 miles", thinking it's just hype, there's sure to be another between here and there.

dragon813gt
January 24, 2013, 06:06 PM
I
So for all of you that do not reload, tough luck, we have been saying for years that you should get into reloading, not just for the cost savings, but so you can have ammo when times get rough like now.

Good luck and I hope you do get into reloading.
Jim

Agree with everything except hoping for others to get into reloading. Please stay hand to mouth so there is only a run on factory ammo and not components. Something is off when Powder Valley sells out their entire inventory in a week. New reloaders aren't going to order hundreds of pounds of powder and tens of thousands of primers for their first order. That run is solely caused by reloaders buying way more than they will use in a timely manner.

And I can't be mad at most of them because we've gone through shortages before. It's the guys buying pallets of primers when they have no reloading equipment that bothers me. I know a guy that still has his pallets of primers from the last run. He still hasn't reloaded a single round yet he keeps buying components. I just don't get that mentality.

I'm fully stocked and patiently waiting this one out. I did place a large order as soon as I heard about the shooting. But it was an order I was going to place in a few weeks anyway. It just get bumped up as I saw this one coming.




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larryh1108
January 24, 2013, 06:31 PM
I know a guy that still has his pallets of primers from the last run. He still hasn't reloaded a single round yet he keeps buying components. I just don't get that mentality.

Perfect example of the hoarding mentioned when I started this thread.

New reloaders aren't going to order hundreds of pounds of powder and tens of thousands of primers for their first order. That run is solely caused by reloaders buying way more than they will use in a timely manner.

And this is why I believe that our community is what fuels these shortages. People who shoot a lot and new members trying to get stocked up aside, I truly believe that those who should know better hoard which dries up the pipeline and raises prices for everybody else.

I don't reload yet but I started a fund to get into it before this all came about. I don't have the funds to order 5k rounds of any caliber ammo. I buy a box or two here and there to get to where I am now. Now I don't want to go to the range because I can't restock my reserves. I like to have enough on hand "just because". However, my "enough" is no where near what others like to have but that is fine. To each, his own, but the hoarders make is worse for everybody and that takes the recreation out of our sport until it settles down in the next year.

I had Monday off due to MLK day and I wanted to go to the range but decided not to because I could not replace what I would shoot (about 300 rounds total). That is not right and we can't blame only Obama for that. I blame hoarders.

MachIVshooter
January 24, 2013, 06:44 PM
Perfect example of the hoarding mentioned when I started this thread................... Now I don't want to go to the range because I can't restock my reserves.

Do you see the contradiction? You're pissed at hoarders because you didn't stock enough to keep shooting during a dry spell without buying more. You should actually be grateful, because most of us "hoarders" were well stocked prior to the rush, and are not the ones buying up everything now. I've bought only about 1,000 rounds of .22 LR and maybe 300 rounds of 9mm and .45 since this started. I wouldn't even have bought the .22 ammo, except I discovered one of my favorite rifles won't shoot the stuff I already had in quantity worth a poop.

You need to distinguish between people who stocked up before hand and the "panic hoarders". It's the latter category you should direct your anger at, people who only began hoarding after the shortage started. Those who did before are not contributing to the shortages now; Those of us who have enough are not going to buy more at inflated prices. We'll wait it out.

Trent
January 24, 2013, 06:46 PM
I had Monday off due to MLK day and I wanted to go to the range but decided not to because I could not replace what I would shoot (about 300 rounds total). That is not right and we can't blame only Obama for that. I blame hoarders.

Really?

Why would my hoarding of guns & ammo over the last 20 years be AT ALL to blame for you not being able to shoot today?

Now that it's happened (yet again..), I don't NEED to go out and buy anything.

Because, I was WELL PREPARED for this.

If you're going to place any blame here, it needs to be SQUARELY on the millions of shooters who were too busy with their overly important selves, to read the tea leaves and stock up on things when they were in good supply.

Hell, just a couple of months ago people would make fun of me for what I was stocking up on.

Just be glad it's not food. Again, I'm prepared for that eventuality, MOST people are not.

You guys want to take something from all this that's worthwhile? Start buying a few extra cans of food each time you go shopping. Get a solid plan on how to get water. Get first aid skills, and tools. Learn to fish. Lean to garden. Learn to reload. Etc.

Fact is, you don't KNOW when something is suddenly going to be in short supply. Might as well have a little bit extra put up just in case it ever IS.

Trent
January 24, 2013, 06:47 PM
(In short, HOARDERS and PREPPERS are not the people you see running out NOW to buy things. Those people, well, they were already sitting pat.)

MachIVshooter
January 24, 2013, 06:55 PM
You guys want to take something from all this that's worthwhile? Start buying a few extra cans of food each time you go shopping. Get a solid plan on how to get water. Get first aid skills, and tools. Learn to fish. Lean to garden. Learn to reload. Etc.

I've discovered that you just can't bring most people around to that way of thinking until they suffer the consequences of being caught unprepared (and sometimes not even then). I've tried with my own family members, but I'm still the only one with enough of everything on hand to hold out more than a week or two if everything falls apart.

I personally will not be without at least 6 months worth of supplies to live in relative comfort under most foreseeable conditions (economic collapse, natural disaster, etc.)

Prepping is a mentality most don't have, and a commitment even fewer are willing to make. Unfortunate, IMO.

silicosys4
January 24, 2013, 06:55 PM
Straight up, Trent.
The people responsible for the OP's woes are NOT the "hoarders" and "preppers" who by nature would be prepared by now.
They are unprepared ninnies like the OP who waited until getting pie'd in the face before they read the writing on the wall.

And OP...who the hell are you, but the next "hoarder" looking to "hoard" that just can't get their hands on what they want to "hoard"?

Ms_Dragon
January 24, 2013, 06:57 PM
Thank you for your nice comment MachIVshooter.

Yes, I do get it.

Trent
January 24, 2013, 07:06 PM
Most people don't prep until they've been bit in the ass once.

America just got bit in the ass (AGAIN!)

My point was, don't DIMINISH the lesson and think this is ONLY about guns and bullets and magazines.

There are PLENTY of things you take for granted which could disappear in a New York Minute.

We ran across this awhile back in my day job with hard drives and memory. (Hard drives when Thailand got flooded, memory when the earthquake shattered Japan).

THAT was about the time I started transitioning from a "pretty normal fellow" to a "hard core prepper".

I have spares of my SPARES at work now.

And at home.

ILikeLead
January 24, 2013, 07:08 PM
why would the guy like me who has been gathering ammo for the last several years be mad at today's prices? I just sit back shake my head and sell another box to the next guy for whatever he'll pay for it. As another poster mentioned, we're not talking about survival here! It could just as easily be food. (In which case I would not sell...)

Be prepared.

EBK
January 24, 2013, 07:09 PM
I am upset simply because prior to all of this I was unable to "prepare for it". Between bills and just keeping the lights on and a roof over my head I was able to put back roughly 100 round of ammo per firearm. Had plans to purchase a 100 round drum for the AR however never had the extra funds.

Now that things have eased up with the bills and I have extra money there is nothing to be found....... anywhere. No primers or bullets, no ammo no spare parts I cant even get a six position buffer tube (just the tube). I was able to find exactly 1 pound of acurate No.5 pistol powder unfortunatly none of my reloading manuals have this powder listed for .45 acp. Its very frustrating.

larryh1108
January 24, 2013, 07:17 PM
And OP...who the hell are you, but the next "hoarder" looking to "hoard" that just can't get their hands on what they want to "hoard"?

It seems like reading is something people can't understand or is it comprehension. I have stated and right above your posts I used examples of hoarding to the detriment of the sport. Guys who hoard. Gathering over the years is not hoarding. Going out to buy a pallet of primers because of the latest fervor when they haven't touched the last pallet they bought in '08. That was used as an example, not guys who have been reloading for the last 20 years and have enough on hand until their kids die.

Read what is written instead of telling me how to prepare to eat or drink. Hoarders are the ones who buy up all they can even though they don't need it and will never shoot it in the next 10 years.

I am prepared enough for this. I am not short on ammo. I said I can't afford to go out and buy 5k rounds of anything (before the carnage) and bought one and two boxes at a time. Excuse me if that makes me stupid for not preparing. I have plenty of ammo if a real need arises. The range is like any other leisure activity, it is optional and a luxury so get off your high horses and learn how to read, comprehend and then digest what is written without getting bent out of shape for something that wasn't directed at you. However, if you have 30k rounds of ammo on hand and went out and bought 20k more and you shoot 2k rounds a year then yeah, this is meant for you. If you are prepared for something like this and did not go out and buy 20k rounds because you planned ahead, this is not for you either. Some people get defensive and then attack when they have no comprehension of what is being said. Yeah, I'm not happy that I cant go to the range because hoarders drove the price up and dried up the supply. Hoarders, not responsible people who bought ahead, have ample supplies on hand and did not rush to the stores when the panic hit. You guys did a good job. I wish I had the cash to do the same. Some people just have their priorities messed up. Some people put food ahead of range ammo. Sucks to be us!

MachIVshooter
January 24, 2013, 07:26 PM
I cant even get a six position buffer tube (just the tube)

Both commercial and milspec UTG pro 6 pos. tubes available on Amazon right now. Good quality tubes, I have 3 of them. I use commercials, though, because UTG (like most) uses 6061 aluminum for both commercial and mil spec, so I want the thicker one. You'll pay a lot more than $22 for a 7075 tube.

David E
January 24, 2013, 07:33 PM
Are the people crying loudest about price gouging/ammo shortage the ones who already have more than enough ammo than they'll shoot in 10 years?

No. The people crying the loudest are folks like, well, you that forgot to buy enough of their own, so they point at others and cry: "They can't shoot that much in ten years! Why do they have so much and I have so little? It's not fair!!"

They have "so much" because they bought it, probably a little here and there along the way to build up their stores. Whilst the whiners did not.

Do the people who are the most angry the ones who are sitting on 10,000, 20,000 and/or 30,000 rounds of ammo now but are upset they can't get more or get it at a fair price?

No. It's the guy that swings by Walmart or the LGS to pick up a couple boxes of ammo on their way out to the range. If he didn't buy some, he'd have nothing to shoot. Now, the shelves are bare, he has nothing to shoot, so he points at others complaining that they're hoarding. All they did was be smart about it. Especially in light of the ammo shortage that began on election day in 2008.

If you have 20,000 rounds of ammo do you think you are hoarding ammo?

No, but I'm kicking myself for not having bought a bit more over the years.

I know what my gut says. Hoarding is behind this shortage.

Your gut is wrong.

Lex Luthier
January 24, 2013, 07:34 PM
If you were smart, the recent events only confirm human nature and won't affect you, except of course when all the newbies sell all this stuff for cheap later when they realize their money never bought effectiveness, just immediate gratification. Idiots.

Ashcons
January 24, 2013, 07:41 PM
In non-volatile times, when suppliers can keep up with demand, people spiking demand isn't going to hurt anything. In fact, they could help by raising production volumes and potentially decreasing costs for everyone. Aside from the people on TV with houses full of totally random crap and garbage with no use, I don't like the word, "Hoarder." It's used liberally to apply to people who are preparing for an event risk that you aren't.

My pantry's full of canned food and dry goods that go beyond what my family needs for a week - we could probably eat for a couple months on the extras we have. A lot of US consumers would consider that food hoarding because they don't see a need for it. Maybe your buddy thinks that a massive ammo tax proposal is in the pipeline and he considers it prudent to stock up on components as he wants to start reloading anyway (I have no idea what he's thinking).

Point is, it's his deal to do what he wants with his money. Call it hoarding if it makes you feel better about it, I guess. That doesn't do anything to help you out, though.

After Obama's first election win, I remember not being able to find 9mm ammo anywhere (except for one lucky trip to WM while driving across the country - fresh restock). Over the past 3.5 years or so, I bought 50 - 100 round packs here and there by the time THIS panic hit, I had "hoarded" enough rounds to last me till it passes. I was lucky enough to pick up some other things that are very difficult to find on the market right now without paying double, triple, or higher than MSRP from pre-Newtown days.

I call it prioritizing important purchases ;)

larryh1108
January 24, 2013, 07:47 PM
No. The people crying the loudest are folks like, well, you that forgot to buy enough of their own, so they point at others and cry: "They can't shoot that much in ten years! Why do they have so much and I have so little? It's not fair!!"

They have "so much" because they bought it, probably a little here and there along the way to build up their stores. Whilst the whiners did not.

Wow, another guy who has trouble comprehending. That's ok. I've seen it quite a bit now. I guess reading the post 2 above yours is too much of a task before you get all sarcastic and condescending. Fine. If the shoe fits you then wear it well.

I'll type real slow so guys like you can actually read it and maybe comprehend it but I'm not holding my breath.

Hoarders aren't guys who accumulated 10 years worth of ammo over the years. Hoarders are guys who have more than they'll ever need, hear about a panic or see an event triggering it and then go out and buy a lot more because they can. Not because they need it but because they have to have it. Guys who are well prepared from years of buying or reloading and wait this shortage out are not hoarders. Simple. Got it? Should I type in all caps so you can read it easier?

dragon813gt
January 24, 2013, 07:51 PM
I think some fail to realize that not everyone had the means to prepare for this. A lot of working folks are living paycheck to paycheck and all of their income goes to food and utilities. Discretionary purchases such as ammo are on an inconsistent basis and it's usually small purchases. This is who the shortage hurts right now. Along with people just getting into the hobby.

You can't blame any particular type of person or event for the current situation. It's been a perfect storm of events that whipped everyone into a frenzy. No need to have any anger that you can't purchase what you want to. I have no need for an AR but was finally considering buying one. I will be holding off on that until prices fall back to normal levels. Just wait it out and cut back on your shooting if need be. There are plenty of other enjoyable things to do in life.


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silicosys4
January 24, 2013, 07:56 PM
OP.
Find a better job. Increase your skillset. Do oddjobs. Make more money. Buy guns who's ammo you can afford. Don't buy guns if you can't afford their ammo. Quit blaming other people who can do things you want to do, for your not being able to do things you want to do.

oneounceload
January 24, 2013, 07:57 PM
For a SOF guy, 5k rounds a week is the norm.

On whose money? Most of these "SOF" guys are video game commandos living in their momma's basement - maybe their video game count can make 5K a week......

kimbershot
January 24, 2013, 07:59 PM
i know guys who bought ammo by the pallet--but they also shoot machine guns. i downsized and shoot only 22lr and reloaded 45acp. have about 6k of 22lr. and enough stuff to do about 8k reloads. i am good to go until the next presidential election.:evil:

larryh1108
January 24, 2013, 08:00 PM
OP.
Find a better job. Increase your skillset. Do oddjobs. Make more money. Buy guns who's ammo you can afford. Don't buy guns if you can't afford their ammo. Quit blaming other people who can do things you want to do, for your not being able to do things you want to do.

Wow, why didn't I think of this. You are a genius! Thanks! You solved the problems of society in one, short paragraph.

silicosys4
January 24, 2013, 08:08 PM
Wow, why didn't I think of this. You are a genius! Thanks! You solved the problems of society in one, short paragraph.

Your welcome, it had a lot more potential to help your problem than your original post, which was nothing more than a thread dedicated entirely to whining about your lack of preparation and assigning blame to anyone other than yourself.
This is America. You could have skipped coffee for the last six months and been stocked with ammo. There were many other more affordable rifles whos ammo you can still find and afford right now. This is about your "toy", and how you didn't prioritize how you spent your money. This is entirely your prioritization of other things instead of ammo, a lack of preperation, and your perceived need to "keep up with the joneses" in ammo count and rifle that is causing you problems.
Take your "hold my hand and tell me I'm right" attitude elsewhere.

larryh1108
January 24, 2013, 08:13 PM
whining about your lack of preparation and assigning blame to anyone other than yourself.

Wow, another one who has trouble reading/comprehending. One-by-one they appear out of nowhere. You just added to society's woes instead of solving them.

silicosys4
January 24, 2013, 08:18 PM
Wow, another one who has trouble reading/comprehending. One-by-one they appear out of nowhere. You just added to society's woes instead of solving them.

You should just admit defeat and shut down your whiny thread, since you've gotten about zero support in your quest to blame those of us who aren't idiots.

MachIVshooter
January 24, 2013, 08:19 PM
I think some fail to realize that not everyone had the means to prepare for this. A lot of working folks are living paycheck to paycheck and all of their income goes to food and utilities.

This is still America. Unless one has a disability preventing you from doing so, it is totally within one's grasp to have higher income and a more comfortable lifestyle. I'm a high school drop out from a family with very moderate means, but I managed to succeed in my career field, and a little over two years ago I started my own business that is thriving. I'm not rich by any means, but through hard work and budgeting, I can afford to drop a grand or two on a moment's notice if a good deal happens along, and I also earned enough and budgeted enough that I was able to stock significant amounts of shooting supplies and new guns over the last decade.

I'm also the breadwinner in a household of 4, with a mortgage and all the other fun expenses of life. So no, you don't get to carry on about this applying to "the single guy with few expenses".

Very few are truly victims of circumstance; Most are victims of their own (lack of) motivation and fortitude.

Sorry, but you just won't garner any sympathy here if you're an able-bodied individual.

larryh1108
January 24, 2013, 08:26 PM
You should just admit defeat and shut down your whiny thread, since you've gotten about zero support in your quest to blame those of us who aren't idiots.

Ok, you need slow typing too... for comprehension.

1) People who were able to stock up ahead of time and/or reloaded now sit back and watch the shortage without being affected. = good job

2) People who have more ammo/components than they'll use in their lifetime and seize the opportunity of an upcoming panic buying spree and buy up even more ammo they don't need = hoarders

3) I believe hoarders are the main reason for the ammo shortage.

There, laid out for you to comprehend with a lot of big words in between.

If you are a hoarder and are offended I guess you'll get over it because you don't care about anybody else but yourself.

silicosys4
January 24, 2013, 08:31 PM
If you are a hoarder and are offended I guess you'll get over it because you don't care about anybody else but yourself.

Says the guy who insists we should all change OUR buying habits to make it more convenient and cheaper for HIM to purchase.

Yea, Ok buddy. You don't know beans about who's got what, and how many people have "more than they will ever shoot"...you are just making assumptions to support your twisted, childish hypothesis.
My hypothesis: it was 1 million unprepared idiots like you, ignorant of the fact that ammo can and does go through regular supply bottlenecks, who all went out in late December/early January when it was clear there was a lot of anti gun yammering, and waited to buy their first 1k of ammo until it became apparent that there was some anti-gun talk going on which might culminate in some sort of legislative action against ammo.....people that should have had that ammo already, but guess what... didn't, and....caused a "banic" instead.

larryh1108
January 24, 2013, 08:36 PM
I'm also the breadwinner in a household of 4, with a mortgage and all the other fun expenses of life. So no, you don't get to carry on about this applying to "the single guy with few expenses".

Very few are truly victims of circumstance; Most are victims of their own (lack of) motivation and fortitude.
Sorry, but you just won't garner any sympathy here if you're an able-bodied individual.

Wow, you have a lot to learn.

It's good to be full of yourself.
You da man!

Hopefully you have a ton of life insurance in case you should perish so your family can carry on in your absence.

Hopefully you have millions stashed away in case your business fails due to the economy, illness, employee theft, another, better widget, etc.

Hopefully you won't turn 50 and have your job outsourced, eliminated or given to someone half your age who also makes half as much.

Too bad life will hit you between your eyes some day. Being smug now won't help you later. Hopefully you or a loved one never has an illness that can drain your life's savings in less than a year for treatment and therapy. Being young and healthy is great!

It must be nice to have a perfect live.

Sigh, I did too, once, then life got in the way.

So excuse me if I didn't buy enough ammo because I like food better.
I'm glad you got both.
Not everybody is as good as you are.
Some just suck, right?

It's ok, your day will come too. Hopefully you'll handle it with as much class as you did boasting about how great you are. My lack of motivation. Yeah, that's it. You know me. You know us all. Leeches! We're leeches! We want what you have. Ammo!

Blech.

larryh1108
January 24, 2013, 08:37 PM
Says the guy who insists we should all change OUR buying habits to make it more convenient and cheaper for HIM to purchase.

Yea, Ok buddy.

You could have chose #1, but nope.
You could have chose #2, but nope.
You chose #3!
Ding, ding, ding! A shoe fits!

It must be Italian leather.

silicosys4
January 24, 2013, 08:44 PM
Bottom line, Larry, Its none of your Fu$%$ing business what I can or can't afford, can or can't use....but it is your Fu$#%ing business what YOU can or can't afford, and YOU couldn't afford what you wanted, when you wanted. Keep that chit to yourself, the general consensus is that we aren't interested.

Larry, your thread is childish attempt at self placation, and is very petty.

jim243
January 24, 2013, 08:47 PM
3) I believe hoarders are the main reason for the ammo shortage.


No it is not!!! It is people like you that panic at the last min and run out to buy all you can before the supply dries up. Those are who are to blame. If you had taken the time to purchase a little at a time when it was in stock, you would not be in the position you are now "whining" about it without ammo.

Your lack of foresight is what is to blame.

Jim

45_auto
January 24, 2013, 08:55 PM
I'm still trying to figure out what's so bad about accumulating things for future use?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hoarder

Noun 1. hoarder - a person who accumulates things and hides them away for future use

My guess is that if larryh1108 had accumulated a little ammo for future use while it was cheap and available, he wouldn't be whining now. Maybe being a hoarder isn't a bad thing!

larryh1108
January 24, 2013, 08:57 PM
Jim,

As I stated above, I have enough ammo if I need it. I said I won't go shooting because I can't replace it and I like to have 1000 rounds of each caliber on hand. I have over 7k rounds on hand. If I shoot 300 rounds, I like to replace it to keep it at 1000 rounds per caliber. I am prepared. I do not wish to go out and buy 10k rounds because of any panic. If I could, I wouldn't. I purchased it a little at a time as money allowed since the last panic. If having 7k rounds on hand is being caught off guard then something is wrong here.

I am whining. Yep, fully admit it.

I am whining because there is no ammo for the everyday man who wants it for recreation when he has time off and can buy a few hundred rounds to have a good time enjoying his hobby. Hoarders have ruined it for them. That's my point. Not people who prepared and did not go out to buy everything in stock. Not reloaders who aren't panicking because they were prepared. Not the average shooter who has his inventory under control and does not need to buy a single round right now. Hoarders buy all they can find, everywhere they can go and store it up even though they don't need it and already have enough for 10 years or their lifetime. They ruin it for the average shooter. That's all I am saying. I am not crying foul at those who are prepared and did not run out to buy 10k rounds just because they can.

There is no reason to have a severe ammo shortage right now yet we do. Why are the responsible people so up in arms about this statement?

dragon813gt
January 24, 2013, 08:58 PM
This is still America. Unless one has a disability preventing you from doing so, it is totally within one's grasp to have higher income and a more comfortable lifestyle.

That is an extremely bold statement. While your life might be gravy it's not for a lot of people. You can't say a higher income is within everyone's grasp when you don't know their skillset or the job market where they live. Just like you can't tell someone to uproot and move to find a job. There are a lot of factors that determine ones ability to acquire work.

I don't agree with the OP in getting angry at others for having more then he does. But I hate people that tell you to pull up your bootstraps and go get more work so you can make more money. It's not that easy for a good portion of the country.


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MachIVshooter
January 24, 2013, 09:00 PM
Wow, you have a lot to learn.

It's good to be full of yourself.
You da man!

Hopefully you have a ton of life insurance in case you should perish so your family can carry on in your absence.

Hopefully you have millions stashed away in case your business fails due to the economy, illness, employee theft, another, better widget, etc.

Hopefully you won't turn 50 and have your job outsourced, eliminated or given to someone half your age who also makes half as much.

Too bad life will hit you between your eyes some day. Being smug now won't help you later. Hopefully you or a loved one never has an illness that can drain your life's savings in less than a year for treatment and therapy. Being young and healthy is great!

It must be nice to have a perfect live.

Sigh, I did too, once, then life got in the way.

So excuse me if I didn't buy enough ammo because I like food better.
I'm glad you got both.
Not everybody is as good as you are.
Some just suck, right?

It's ok, your day will come too. Hopefully you'll handle it with as much class as you did boasting about how great you are. My lack of motivation. Yeah, that's it. You know me. You know us all. Leeches! We're leeches! We want what you have. Ammo!

I've been laid off.

I've been laid up.

I've been evicted (I paid rent, landlord didn't pay mortgage)

I've been deathly ill.

I've dealt with the lunatic ex who wants you dead, tries to get you thrown in jail, etc.

I've been through bankruptcy.

I've been sued.

One of my daughters is special needs.

The list goes on and on.



Still think I've "had it easy"? :rolleyes:

larryh1108
January 24, 2013, 09:02 PM
You'd think that with all you've been thru that you wouldn't be so quick to judge.

larryh1108
January 24, 2013, 09:05 PM
I don't agree with the OP in getting angry at others for having more then he does.

Gee, and I thought I was pizzy because hoarders have caused this ammo shortage. I'm happy for all those who have all they need and DIDN'T run out to buy more. They sit back, smile and watch the unprepared scramble for a box of ammo. They probably have their popcorn box while they watch. Kudos to those who have what they need. Now, hoarders are another story.

EBK
January 24, 2013, 09:06 PM
I think some fail to realize that not everyone had the means to prepare for this. A lot of working folks are living paycheck to paycheck and all of their income goes to food and utilities. Discretionary purchases such as ammo are on an inconsistent basis and it's usually small purchases. This is who the shortage hurts right now. Along with people just getting into the hobby.


Brought to you by TapaTalk

This is why I am upset. I dont blame anyone for buying it up, however the first line in this post is exactly what I have been going through. He just stated it better than I could.

I cant even go practice because after one range session I would be out of ammo and unable to replace it.

Teachu2
January 24, 2013, 09:17 PM
So what is someone who has 7k rounds on hand but won't shoot it because they can't replace it today? Unless you believe the sky is currently loosing altitude uncontrollably, that is.

Shoot half of it over the next few months, then re-evaluate conditions. Stockpile for a rainy day, use it when it rains. Otherwise, YOU are a HOARDER.

MachIVshooter
January 24, 2013, 09:29 PM
You'd think that with all you've been thru that you wouldn't be so quick to judge.

I can say what I do because I've been through what I have. We (almost) all fall on hard times. It's up to you to get up. Yeah, there were times I had to seriously pep talk myself, but ultimately I knew things wouldn't get better unless I made them better.

I have sympathy and empathy for people who get in a rough spot. I have sympathy and empathy for those who are rendered physically or mentally unable to get out of the rough spot. I DON'T have sympathy for people who choose to blame others and circumstance when they could better their own situation.

It's all about the choices we make. I also didn't say NO ONE is a victim of circumstance. I said FEW are.

The America dream will not be given to you. You can have it, but you have to work for it. Some people have to work very hard.

ETA:

That is an extremely bold statement. While your life might be gravy it's not for a lot of people. You can't say a higher income is within everyone's grasp when you don't know their skillset or the job market where they live. Just like you can't tell someone to uproot and move to find a job. There are a lot of factors that determine ones ability to acquire work.

I don't agree with the OP in getting angry at others for having more then he does. But I hate people that tell you to pull up your bootstraps and go get more work so you can make more money. It's not that easy for a good portion of the country.

My life has hardly been gravy. Above (post #89) I highlighted just a few of the tribulations I've dealt with.

I absolutely can say higher income is within reach of non-disabled persons without knowing their skillset or local job market; You can improve/expand your skill set, and you can change your location. Why can't we tell someone to uproot to find a job? People do it all the time.

I didn't have to move to better my situation, but I absolutely had to expand my skillset. I not only had to keep improving on the career skills and education I was already using, but to run a business, I had to learn management, advertising and bookkeeping/accounting. Think it was easy? Think I didn't struggle for awhile? Think I still don't spend 70-80+ hours a week working? Think I don't have stress?

Once again, if your able bodied and of sound mind, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from earning the American dream. Doesn't mean it'll be easy; It might mean long hours, it might mean sacrifices for a time, it might even mean cutting some family ties. But those are choices you get to make.

larryh1108
January 24, 2013, 09:32 PM
No, I am not a hoarder because I didn't go clean out Walmart because of the CT shootings. If I had $2000 to spend I wouldn't have bought any more than I usually do. Last week I found some 9mm and .22LR at a couple bucks over the previous cost. I bought 100 rounds of 9mm and 200 rounds of .22LR. The shelf was full. I left some for the other shooters. I chose not to hoard. When I find some .40S&W and some .45ACP I'll buy 100 of each and then go shooting. I won't buy every box on the shelf. Read the posts from '08 about the guys who went from Walmart to Walmart to buy every box they had in stock. Read about how they bragged they got there at 7:45 to clean off the shelves. They bragged about it. One post said how he and another guy got there together but the other guy was first. There was 6 boxes of 9mm. They talked while the lady went to get the key. They both wanted to buy 9mm ammo. When the lady came back, she asked the first guy how many. He said he'd take all of them. Guy #2 (poster) left with none because the guy cleaned them out. I'm sure you can find the posts back then. It was sickening. I would have taken 3 and left the other guy the other 3.

Monday I thought about shooting now and replacing later. My 1000 round per caliber is my comfort zone. The last panic in '08 I had 200 per caliber. I didn't like that feeling so now it is 1000. Am I hoarding? Nope. I didn't run out to buy every box on the shelves because the end of the world is coming. Hoarders do and don't care about the next guy.

larryh1108
January 24, 2013, 09:36 PM
I have sympathy and empathy for people who get in a rough spot.

But your rough spots are behind you. What about when you were right in the middle of them, before your hard work paid off. While you were being evicted. If you bought ammo while you were being evicted then something is wrong. Right now people are at the bottom and will climb out. Life is full of cycles. Some have said cycles go 7 years. I believe it from what I've seen. So, if someone is down today that doesn't mean he is a loser, that he doesn't care, that he's apathetic it just means it's time to climb out. Unfortunately, when it's time to climb out it's not time to stock up on ammo. You should know that since you've been there more than once. Don't be so quick to judge.

Teachu2
January 24, 2013, 09:37 PM
No, I am not a hoarder because I didn't go clean out Walmart because of the CT shootings. If I had $2000 to spend I wouldn't have bought any more than I usually do. Last week I found some 9mm and .22LR at a couple bucks over the previous cost. I bought 100 rounds of 9mm and 200 rounds of .22LR. The shelf was full. I left some for the other shooters. I chose not to hoard. When I find some .40S&W and some .45ACP I'll buy 100 of each and then go shooting. I won't buy every box on the shelf. Read the posts from '08 about the guys who went from Walmart to Walmart to buy every box they had in stock. Read about how they bragged they got there at 7:45 to clean off the shelves. They bragged about it. One post said how he and another guy got there together but the other guy was first. There was 6 boxes of 9mm. They talked while the lady went to get the key. They both wanted to buy 9mm ammo. When the lady came back, she asked the first guy how many. He said he'd take all of them. Guy #2 (poster) left with none because the guy cleaned them out. I'm sure you can find the posts back then. It was sickening. I would have taken 3 and left the other guy the other 3.

Monday I thought about shooting now and replacing later. My 1000 round per caliber is my comfort zone. The last panic in '08 I had 200 per caliber. I didn't like that feeling so now it is 1000. Am I hoarding? Nope. I didn't run out to buy every box on the shelves because the end of the world is coming. Hoarders do and don't care about the next guy.
This, I can agree with.

Teachu2
January 24, 2013, 09:40 PM
Before the NEXT election, stock some shootin' supplies - over and above the "comfort" level.

EBK
January 24, 2013, 09:42 PM
So what is someone who has 7k rounds on hand but won't shoot it because they can't replace it today? Unless you believe the sky is currently loosing altitude uncontrollably, that is.

Shoot half of it over the next few months, then re-evaluate conditions. Stockpile for a rainy day, use it when it rains. Otherwise, YOU are a HOARDER.
If you are talking to me: I am not sure how you figure I have 7k rounds of ammo.

Here is my stock
.40= 100
9mm= 100
.45= 125
.223/5.56= 160
7.62x39 =120
.22 =11
7.5x55 swiss=0
thats a total of 616 so you were only 6,400 off.

Thats roughly one range session per gun with no ammo on any local store shevles to buy. Even at a marked up price it is simply no where to be found.

larryh1108
January 24, 2013, 09:43 PM
Now that I have the time, I'm moving into reloading. I've decided to sell one of my handguns to buy a nice setup. Even then, I'll still leave some for the other guy. I'm guess I'm too fair for my own good. That's ok, I can live with that.

larryh1108
January 24, 2013, 09:44 PM
If you are talking to me: I am not sure how you figure I have 7k rounds of ammo.

The reference was to me.

As I stated above, I have enough ammo if I need it. I said I won't go shooting because I can't replace it and I like to have 1000 rounds of each caliber on hand. I have over 7k rounds on hand.

EBK
January 24, 2013, 09:45 PM
Before the NEXT election, stock some shootin' supplies - over and above the "comfort" level.
You offering to buy?

Thats the problem we had. Its not that we didnt want to we simply did not have the means to.

EBK
January 24, 2013, 09:46 PM
Now that I have the time, I'm moving into reloading. I've decided to sell one of my handguns to buy a nice setup. Even then, I'll still leave some for the other guy. I'm guess I'm too fair for my own good. That's ok, I can live with that.
Good luck reloading supplies around here are all gone as well.

In light of that I would not recomend selling guns to fund the reloading set up.

Ms_Dragon
January 24, 2013, 10:01 PM
I wouldn't own a dog who whined as much as Larry.

larryh1108
January 24, 2013, 10:17 PM
Seeing your location, I can see why.

David E
January 24, 2013, 10:25 PM
Hoarders are guys who have more than they'll ever need

Who the hell are you to make that determination?

Wow, another guy who has trouble comprehending. That's ok. I've seen it quite a bit now.

If you think everyone else but you has a problem......then you're the one with the problem.

IBTL

larryh1108
January 24, 2013, 10:29 PM
If you think everyone else but you has a problem......then you're the one with the problem

Once you master reading and comprehension, I promise to take your advice seriously.

Larry Ashcraft
January 24, 2013, 10:41 PM
Enough.

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