Minor Self Defense in a Place of Business?


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CmdrSlander
January 23, 2013, 09:33 PM
I have nephew who works in a convenience store, its been robbed by armed thugs a couple times but never when he was "on duty". However, he is moving to a later shift - the shift when robberies usually occur - the manager is Pro 2A and his policy toward employees having guns to defend themselves and the store is to allow it if the employee provides their own gun. My nephew is keen to do just that now that he is working the stop n' loot shift but he is 17. So my question is: In the state of Kansas is it legal for a minor to possess - by way of having it lent to them by an adult - a firearm (it would probably be a shotgun) for self defense in a place of business with owner permission?

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stevek
January 23, 2013, 09:37 PM
Best bet would be to ask the local authority for a legally binding answer. Local Sheriff, Chief of Police, State Police etc.

CmdrSlander
January 23, 2013, 09:39 PM
Best bet would be to ask the local authority for a legally binding answer. Local Sheriff, Chief of Police, State Police etc.
The area sheriff is a good man, he would okay if that was in his power.

Telekinesis
January 23, 2013, 09:54 PM
Best bet would be to ask the local authority for a legally binding answer. Local Sheriff, Chief of Police, State Police etc.


No law enforcement official in his right mind will give a "legally binding opinion of a law". Thats not even their professional field. For anything approaching that, you will need to talk to the AG. If you ask a LEO, they will almost assuredly tell you it is illegal. Most don't even know that the minimum age for possession is 18 and will argue with you that it is 21 (per Fed statute, state law may be different).

Your best bet will probably be to get an attorney on your side to research it and give you their opinion on it. Federally, the statute in question will be USC 922 (x). I believe there is an exemption for minors with written permission from their parents/owners of the firearm while they are acting under the terms of their employment. There may be other qualifications to that exemption, so you should look at it carefully.

Black Knight
January 23, 2013, 10:03 PM
Spend a little money and contact a competant attorney in your area. The biggest problem I see is how he might carry it. If he carrys concealed would he be breaking the law? If so how much trouble could he be in? You don't want him to end up being a convicted felon.

NavyLCDR
January 23, 2013, 10:07 PM
You have to tell us what city/county we are talking about. Kansas has no state preemption of firearms laws. The applicable state law is:

http://kslegislature.org/li/b2013_14/statute/021_000_0000_chapter/021_063_0000_article/021_063_0001_section/021_063_0001_k/

21-6301. Criminal use of weapons. (a) Criminal use of weapons is knowingly:

(7) selling, giving or otherwise transferring any firearm with a barrel less than 12 inches long to any person under 18 years of age whether the person knows or has reason to know the length of the barrel;

(14) possessing a firearm with a barrel less than 12 inches long by any person less than 18 years of age whether the person knows or has reason to know the length of the barrel.

CmdrSlander
January 23, 2013, 10:07 PM
Spend a little money and contact a competant attorney in your area. The biggest problem I see is how he might carry it. If he carrys concealed would he be breaking the law? If so how much trouble could he be in? You don't want him to end up being a convicted felon.
I know for a fact it would not be concealed. The firearm would likely be a pump shotgun under the counter within arm's reach. We are eschewing handguns entirely as they are a legal minefield all their own.

BHP FAN
January 23, 2013, 10:09 PM
right. when does he turn 18? can you put off the shift change until then?

CmdrSlander
January 23, 2013, 10:11 PM
right. when does he turn 18? can you put off the shift change until then?
About a year, hopefully he won't be working at a convenience store anymore at that point.

NavyLCDR
January 23, 2013, 10:11 PM
Can't answer the question without knowing what city/county.

CmdrSlander
January 23, 2013, 10:16 PM
Can't answer the question without knowing what city/county.
Leawood, Johnson County (and yes I know that is a nice area, the criminals are coming from the surrounding area and hitting the store which is on the outskirts of the nice area).

NavyLCDR
January 23, 2013, 10:23 PM
Leawood, Johnson County (and yes I know that is a nice area, the criminals are coming from the surrounding area and hitting the store which is on the outskirts of the nice area).

Search for the word firearm:
http://www.leawood.org/pdf/Leawood%20City%20Code.pdf

I don't see anything that would prohibit the possession of a shotgun, but during transportation to work it would have to be unloaded and enclosed in a container and it would have to stay hidden behind the counter once at work.

I don't see anything prohibiting it in Johnson County Code:
http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientID=13512&stateID=16&statename=Kansas

CmdrSlander
January 23, 2013, 10:28 PM
Search for the word firearm:
http://www.leawood.org/pdf/Leawood%20City%20Code.pdf

I don't see anything that would prohibit the possession of a shotgun, but it would have to be unloaded and enclosed in a container and it would have to stay hidden behind the counter.

I don't see anything prohibiting it in Johnson County Code:
http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientID=13512&stateID=16&statename=Kansas
Well that sort of renders it useless. I wonder if loaded tube + empty chamber would count as "unloaded" - as for the container... In a defensive scenario any container that could be considered "secure" would be pretty useless.

NavyLCDR
January 23, 2013, 10:35 PM
Well that sort of renders it useless. I wonder if loaded tube + empty chamber would count as "unloaded" - as for the container... In a defensive scenario any container that could be considered "secure" would be pretty useless.
I goofed up my post. I corrected it. Unloaded and enclosed in a case while being transported in a vehicle. Loaded and accessible, but out of sight behind the counter once at work.

CmdrSlander
January 23, 2013, 10:35 PM
Search for the word firearm:
http://www.leawood.org/pdf/Leawood%20City%20Code.pdf

I don't see anything that would prohibit the possession of a shotgun, but during transportation to work it would have to be unloaded and enclosed in a container and it would have to stay hidden behind the counter once at work.

I don't see anything prohibiting it in Johnson County Code:
http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientID=13512&stateID=16&statename=Kansas

I misread that to say it had to be unloaded and enclosed at work, but if loaded and hidden at work is fine then I'd say he is good to go.

Edit: Thanks for correcting that.

CmdrSlander
January 23, 2013, 10:37 PM
I goofed up my post. I corrected it. Unloaded and enclosed in a case while being transported in a vehicle. Loaded and accessible, but out of sight behind the counter once at work.
I really appreciate your help. So we now know he is okay per Kansas law and local law, is he okay at the Federal level? I would assume so from other stuff I have read on it.

NavyLCDR
January 23, 2013, 10:43 PM
I really appreciate your help. So we now know he is okay per Kansas law and local law, is he okay at the Federal level? I would assume so from other stuff I have read on it.

He could even possess a handgun <18 years of age, under certain conditions, according to Federal law, 18 USC 922 (x):

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

(x)
(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile—
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
(2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to knowingly possess—
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
(3) This subsection does not apply to—
(A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile or to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile if the handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by the juvenile—
(i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching or farming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on property used for ranching or farming at which the juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or lessee, is performing activities related to the operation of the farm or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in the safe and lawful use of a handgun;
(ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile’s parent or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from possessing a firearm, except—
(I) during transportation by the juvenile of an unloaded handgun in a locked container directly from the place of transfer to a place at which an activity described in clause (i) is to take place and transportation by the juvenile of that handgun, unloaded and in a locked container, directly from the place at which such an activity took place to the transferor; or
(II) with respect to ranching or farming activities as described in clause (i), a juvenile may possess and use a handgun or ammunition with the prior written approval of the juvenile’s parent or legal guardian and at the direction of an adult who is not prohibited by Federal, State or local law from possessing a firearm;
(iii) the juvenile has the prior written consent in the juvenile’s possession at all times when a handgun is in the possession of the juvenile; and
(iv) in accordance with State and local law;
(B) a juvenile who is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard who possesses or is armed with a handgun in the line of duty;
(C) a transfer by inheritance of title (but not possession) of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile; or
(D) the possession of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile taken in defense of the juvenile or other persons against an intruder into the residence of the juvenile or a residence in which the juvenile is an invited guest.
(4) A handgun or ammunition, the possession of which is transferred to a juvenile in circumstances in which the transferor is not in violation of this subsection shall not be subject to permanent confiscation by the Government if its possession by the juvenile subsequently becomes unlawful because of the conduct of the juvenile, but shall be returned to the lawful owner when such handgun or ammunition is no longer required by the Government for the purposes of investigation or prosecution.
(5) For purposes of this subsection, the term “juvenile” means a person who is less than 18 years of age.
(6)
(A) In a prosecution of a violation of this subsection, the court shall require the presence of a juvenile defendant’s parent or legal guardian at all proceedings.
(B) The court may use the contempt power to enforce subparagraph (A).
(C) The court may excuse attendance of a parent or legal guardian of a juvenile defendant at a proceeding in a prosecution of a violation of this subsection for good cause shown.

NavyLCDR
January 23, 2013, 10:46 PM
I am not a lawyer, you might want to run everything by one.....

CmdrSlander
January 23, 2013, 10:48 PM
He could even possess a handgun <18 years of age, under certain conditions, according to Federal law, 18 USC 922 (x):

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

(x)
(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile—
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
(2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to knowingly possess—
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
(3) This subsection does not apply to—
(A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile or to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile if the handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by the juvenile—
(i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching or farming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on property used for ranching or farming at which the juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or lessee, is performing activities related to the operation of the farm or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in the safe and lawful use of a handgun;
(ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile’s parent or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from possessing a firearm, except—
(I) during transportation by the juvenile of an unloaded handgun in a locked container directly from the place of transfer to a place at which an activity described in clause (i) is to take place and transportation by the juvenile of that handgun, unloaded and in a locked container, directly from the place at which such an activity took place to the transferor; or
(II) with respect to ranching or farming activities as described in clause (i), a juvenile may possess and use a handgun or ammunition with the prior written approval of the juvenile’s parent or legal guardian and at the direction of an adult who is not prohibited by Federal, State or local law from possessing a firearm;
(iii) the juvenile has the prior written consent in the juvenile’s possession at all times when a handgun is in the possession of the juvenile; and
(iv) in accordance with State and local law;
(B) a juvenile who is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard who possesses or is armed with a handgun in the line of duty;
(C) a transfer by inheritance of title (but not possession) of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile; or
(D) the possession of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile taken in defense of the juvenile or other persons against an intruder into the residence of the juvenile or a residence in which the juvenile is an invited guest.
(4) A handgun or ammunition, the possession of which is transferred to a juvenile in circumstances in which the transferor is not in violation of this subsection shall not be subject to permanent confiscation by the Government if its possession by the juvenile subsequently becomes unlawful because of the conduct of the juvenile, but shall be returned to the lawful owner when such handgun or ammunition is no longer required by the Government for the purposes of investigation or prosecution.
(5) For purposes of this subsection, the term “juvenile” means a person who is less than 18 years of age.
(6)
(A) In a prosecution of a violation of this subsection, the court shall require the presence of a juvenile defendant’s parent or legal guardian at all proceedings.
(B) The court may use the contempt power to enforce subparagraph (A).
(C) The court may excuse attendance of a parent or legal guardian of a juvenile defendant at a proceeding in a prosecution of a violation of this subsection for good cause shown.
That's very interesting, the prior written consent part puzzles me... is it saying that it would be legal for, say, a juvenile with a letter from his father to transport/possess his father's handgun for a lawful purpose?

Or is it written consent + special circumstances such as "farming and ranching"

CmdrSlander
January 23, 2013, 10:50 PM
I am not a lawyer, you might want to run everything by one.....
Of course.

NavyLCDR
January 23, 2013, 10:58 PM
That's very interesting, the prior written consent part puzzles me... is it saying that it would be legal for, say, a juvenile with a letter from his father to transport/possess his father's handgun for a lawful purpose?

Or is it written consent + special circumstances such as "farming and ranching"

All 4 conditions must be met at the same time due to the word "and" in between (iii) and (iv):

(i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching or farming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on property used for ranching or farming at which the juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or lessee, is performing activities related to the operation of the farm or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in the safe and lawful use of a handgun;

(ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile’s parent or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from possessing a firearm,

(iii) the juvenile has the prior written consent in the juvenile’s possession at all times when a handgun is in the possession of the juvenile; and

(iv) in accordance with State and local law;

AlexanderA
January 23, 2013, 11:33 PM
Having worked the late shift in a convenience store (when I was a student in college), I can tell you it's one of the worst jobs you can have. Tell your nephew to quit, as soon as possible. And the presence of a gun increases the chances that he will be killed (of course he might be killed anyway). It simply isn't worth the minimum wage that they're paying him.

(Lest someone think that I'm spouting an antigun talking point, being in a situation like this -- behind the counter in a convenience store -- puts you at a tactical disadvantage. The robbers have the element of surprise. Reach for the gun, and you're dead. Besides, a 17-year-old isn't experienced or trained in this sort of thing.)

CmdrSlander
January 23, 2013, 11:41 PM
Having worked the late shift in a convenience store (when I was a student in college), I can tell you it's one of the worst jobs you can have. Tell your nephew to quit, as soon as possible. And the presence of a gun increases the chances that he will be killed (of course he might be killed anyway). It simply isn't worth the minimum wage that they're paying him.

(Lest someone think that I'm spouting an antigun talking point, being in a situation like this -- behind the counter in a convenience store -- puts you at a tactical disadvantage. The robbers have the element of surprise. Reach for the gun, and you're dead. Besides, a 17-year-old isn't experienced or trained in this sort of thing.)
Yikes...

None of the hold ups have ended in violence (weapons were presented, not fired) and the guy who runs the place is a good man... but I see where you are coming from.

AlexanderA
January 24, 2013, 01:31 AM
I just noticed that you are located in Central Texas. The convenience store that I worked at was in Austin, on Burnet Rd. (It's since been torn down; I checked when I was there last year.) Besides the ever-present danger of being robbed, I had my pay docked for a bad check that I accepted from a woman who bought a carton of cigarettes and other items. But the final straw was when the owner didn't arrive to close up the store, and I had to keep it open all night until he showed up the next morning. That's when I quit.

BSA1
January 24, 2013, 11:30 AM
l would email the Kansas Attorney Generals Office using their website for their opinion in writing.

I would also contact the Johnson County District Attorney office in writing (maybe by email also) and get their opinion in writing.

In addition it may be illegal for a minor to work on a night shift. I believe for experience with my own children they are restricted by law from working certain hours.

Free legal advice on the Internet however well intended is worthless. Frankly if he was my son I would not allow him to accept such a high risk job but I know you are not his father.

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